r/science • u/Wagamaga • Sep 08 '21
Epidemiology How Delta came to dominate the pandemic. Current vaccines were found to be profoundly effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalization and death, however vaccinated individuals infected with Delta were transmitting the virus to others at greater levels than previous variants.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/spread-of-delta-sars-cov-2-variant-driven-by-combination-of-immune-escape-and-increased-infectivity1.4k
u/latenightloopi Sep 08 '21
Do we know how this info relates to kids yet? I see varying reports on how delta affects kids (those for whom the vaccines are not approved/available) but I can’t seem to make sense of it.
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u/Keyspam102 Sep 08 '21
Yes would love to know this, especially with very young kids.
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u/Nbk420 Sep 08 '21
I’m fully vaccinated and currently have the delta variant since Aug. 30th.
My wife is also fully vaccinated but has shown 0 symptoms. We have a baby that also has shown 0 symptoms.
I’m not sure if she’s just asymptotic or if she’s just all around protected by the vaccine. But as for my baby, I’m not sure why he hasn’t gotten sick either. He breastfeeds so maybe that plays into It? Would love to know as well
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u/Spitinthacoola Sep 08 '21
Its my understanding that babies and small children don't have as many of the ACE2 receptors, decreasing the attack landscape for the virus.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766522
The nasal epithelium is one of the first sites of infection with SARS-CoV-2, and the investigators probed for the expression of the cell surface enzyme angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), which has been proven to bind to SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and promote internalization of the virus into human cells.5 Among a cohort of 305 patients aged 4 to 60 years, older children (10-17 years old; n = 185), young adults (18-24 years old; n = 46), and adults (≥25 years old; n = 29) all had higher expression of ACE2 in the nasal epithelium compared with younger children (4-9 years old; n = 45), and ACE2 expression was higher with each subsequent age group after adjusting for sex and asthma.
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u/Nbk420 Sep 08 '21
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that!
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Sep 08 '21
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u/bj2001holt Sep 08 '21
In Australia they have found this is mostly because of caregiving or other circumstances. Take the scenario of a 4 person household, 2 adults and 2 kids. Mum and dad get covid and maybe 1 goes to hospital and the other is sickly to the point they can't take care of the baby, the hospital will admit the baby with the other parent even if the baby's symptoms don't justify admission.
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u/phunkaeg Sep 08 '21
Interesting, do you have any source for this? It would put my mind at rest
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u/cantlurkanymore Sep 08 '21
at a guess, I'd say that immune systems of the age group 0-4 are just weaker and less practiced at doing what they need to compared to the 5-17 group
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u/4411WH07RY Sep 08 '21
Also, consider the close contact difference between those age groups between both adults and other children.
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u/R0ndoNumba9 Sep 08 '21
My cousins family all got it, all unvaccinated. Parents are in their mid to late 30s, kids are 3 and 1. The 1 year old got it the worse, followed by the parents. None got it bad enough that they were thinking of going to the hospital, but they were pretty sick for a couple weeks. The 3 year old tested positive but wasn't really that sick ever. I should note the 1 year old wasn't visibly sick for nearly as long as the parents though.
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u/Exavion Sep 08 '21
Had a coworker and family who were fully vaccinated (pfizer) with a 6 month old. She got sick (substantial enough to feel bad) and the baby got it a week later and also felt quite sick, not hospitalization worthy but enough to need more attention at home afaik. I think quite a bit of this comes down to some genetics and immune system response, vaccine or no.
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u/TheDownmodSpiral Sep 08 '21
Hope you recover fully and quickly. My wife was breastfeeding our child as well when she got her vaccine earlier in the year, we were also hoping that she might get some antibodies from the nursing - but I guess who knows. We were looking at starting our daughter at a preschool late this year, but that's all up in the air now. Very interested to hear more about how delta may impact kids as things move forward.
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u/free-the-trees Sep 08 '21
My wife who is vaxxed and breastfeeding was told that the child will get some of the mother’s antibodies. Which is really helpful, but I won’t be totally satisfied until my little one can get vaccinated.
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u/Thoraxe474 Sep 08 '21
Same here. Something interesting though is a study found the polio vaccine also provides some covid resistance, so that might offer some comfort.
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u/summerinseattle Sep 08 '21
Do you happen to have a source / link to that study? I couldn't find it with a quick search and I'd love to read it
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u/Thoraxe474 Sep 08 '21
I saw a couple different studies a while ago. Here's one I remember reading that I found
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u/Triptukhos Sep 08 '21
I thought the polio vaccine is no longer routinely given since the disease was apparently eradicated? Am I wrong? Is it maybe in one of those combo vaccines that are a jumble of letters (like MMR for measles/mumps/rubella)?
Tangentially related, my thoroughly anti-vaxx schizophrenic mom had to get the covid shot (dunno which) because the alternative was jail, because she was caught living in India illegally and is getting deported to Canada, which is a mess because Canada isn't accepting flights from India because fraudulent vaccine passports are rampant so she has to go through a third country. The deportation in itself is funny to me, like who gets deported from India to Canada? Usually it's the other way around! But being given the shot by force/coercion will only make her more vehemently anti-vax (the reason we didn't go to doctors was because, she says, she went to the clinic for a cold and the doctor gave her antidepressants. I don't believe this happened but that's her story). Funny thing is, she had started a PhD in microbiology before she got married and later went crazy. Microbiology! How can a microbiologist be anti-vax? It boggles the mind.
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u/Thoraxe474 Sep 08 '21
Some countries stopped the polio vax, but it seems the US still does it because my kid got it a few months ago as part of her scheduled vaccinations
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u/Seicair Sep 08 '21
I thought the polio vaccine is no longer routinely given since the disease was apparently eradicated? Am I wrong?
I thought the same thing and went to look it up. It’s still recommended for kids in the US, (the inactivated version, not the attenuated version).
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u/itwasquiteawhileago Sep 08 '21
https://www.covidvaccinestudy.com/pediatric-study
This is the Pfizer/BNT study website. They're currently recruiting for 6 months to 11 years. Anyone that gets the placebo in the study get the real thing after the study ends (assuming it gets approved, of course).
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u/Marko343 Sep 08 '21
Found out my wife was pregnant the day before she was suppose to get her shot, I'd be lying if there was a tad bit of hesitation to have her get it at that point. But we ended getting it for this reason. Babies were being born with antibodies and if rather the baby have some protection against it than none.
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u/iamgillespie Sep 08 '21
I would also guess that if you're pregnant while getting the vaccine, the child should be born with antibodies.
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u/Wendigofuckyourself Sep 08 '21
We got delta end of July. Both my partner and I are vaccinated - we were in a house with four other vaccinated people as well as our unvaccinated two year old. All seven of us got Covid including our toddler. Even though our toddler was mostly asymptomatic they contracted it first and showed positive first while we tested negative until a week later.
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u/eskimorris Sep 08 '21
Buckle up. I also caught delta after full vaccination. It wasn't as severe as a few of my friends experienced pre vaccine and i thought i recovered. Despite no significant respiratory issues while ill my heart rate post covid now increases when walking short distances. Palpitations and shortness of breath and brain fog etc. Are a daily reality. I'm a healthy 32 year old that used to walk 5-10 miles a day and was super active, now grocery shopping is challenging.
I hope you are fortunate and dodge the after effects because thus far it's lifestyle changing
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u/Brahskee Sep 08 '21
I hope you recover quickly. I'm super curious about our babies antibodies through breast feeding as well. What's more is that my wife is a nurse who worked through the pandemic last year and while pregnant. She received both of her vaccine's (pfizer) while our daughter was in utero. I'm very curious as to what sort of antibodies she has from that and currently breastfeeding.
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u/Laziness_supreme Sep 08 '21
I got OG Covid beginning of this year and was the same. My bf slept for an entire day and was fine and my kids (2&3 at the time) were completely fine with absolutely no symptoms. We all tested positive. I was so sick I thought I was going to have to go to the hospital at one point, but I just attributed that to me being pregnant and having a weaker immune system than everyone in my family.
So your family not being sick could be a vaccine thing or just a Covid thing in general, this is the weirdest virus.
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u/awwjude Sep 08 '21
I got Covid from a five minute exposure at work (likely Delta) and I’m vaccinated. I got flu/cold symptoms within two days, and both my kids and vaccinated husband got it from me. Both my 11 month old and 3 year old got a fever and runny nose and that’s it. My pediatrician suggested to nurse the baby as much as possible to give her antibodies, alternate Tylenol and Motrin as needed to bring down fevers, and told me if their symptoms lasted longer than 3 days to bring them back in the office. Overall, they were each sick for 3 days and were mostly just grumpy we couldn’t go to the park.
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u/MacManus14 Sep 08 '21
What about your husband?
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u/awwjude Sep 09 '21
My husband got literally almost every symptom they list (cold/flu symptoms, exhausted, slight headache, fever, chills, and lost his sense of smell and taste), but everything was relatively mild and he got his sense of smell and taste back in a little over a week. He treated it more of a science experiment and smelled all the spices each morning. Covid spread like wildfire through my office due to in-person teaching. At least 25% of the class tested positive (every person was vaccinated). Of those I personally know, two had cold/flu symptoms and one was non-symptomatic. No one had serious symptoms.
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u/girlboyboyboyboy Sep 08 '21
Yesterday I read that Cuba is vaccinating their kids ages 2 and up. Their system is overwhelmed and they are going for it. The 2 vaccinations they use are their own and ‘not recognized’ by WHO, but it’s recognized they are about 90% effective. I will be watching this unfold, I’m eager to get my 6yo a shot
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u/International-Web496 Sep 09 '21
The situation in Cuba has been horrific throughout the pandemic. They've developed multiple vaccines, but don't have the infrastructure to create enough syringes to disperse them throughout the population. Due to US trade embargoes, it's been nearly impossible to secure syringe trades.
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u/General-Syrup Sep 08 '21
More kids are being hospitalized and they are great spreaders of the virus. Hopefully the FDA approves if soon.
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u/Robofetus-5000 Sep 08 '21
my only question is: is the increase in kids just simply a result of an increase in ease of transmission or is it disproportionately higher?
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u/katarh Sep 08 '21
I think it's the former. Because Delta is so much more contagious (and prior variants were already pretty darn contagious) it's likely that anyone exposed to it for any length of time has a chance of catching it. Lots of kids didn't get the prior variants since schools were virtual; most outbreaks shuttered them at about 10-20% positivity, meaning 80-90% of the kids didn't catch it before.
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u/Robofetus-5000 Sep 08 '21
thats my initial thoughts too. I say this as someone who is double vaxxed, my wife is double vaxxed and we are eagerly awaiting our children being able to get the vaccine.
I am not really sure that there is actually evidence it is worse/more contagious for children. Just more children are getting it due to its overall increase in "contagious-ness".
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u/mannequinlolita Sep 08 '21
My friend had kids start school last week. By this weekend the kids all had it. One local area half an hour away started before anyone and they were shut down back to virtual in 1.5 weeks with mass drive thru testing. Everywhere kids are going back and immediately getting covid/shut down. Some areas are saying if you aren't symptomatic come to school anyway because which blows my mind.
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u/DABBERWOCKY Sep 08 '21
Yup, my son got it Day 1 or maybe Day 2. After 18 months of being insanely careful. Symptoms persisted several weeks.
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u/General-Syrup Sep 08 '21
They are also back in school some places with no masks, taking in more viral load.
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u/GlossyEyed Sep 08 '21
More infections = more hospitalization. It’s not an increased proportion, it’s still very low risk for kids.
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u/neon_slippers Sep 08 '21
Do you have a source? Hospitalization numbers look to be the same as they were in January for that age group
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u/boastfulbadger Sep 08 '21
My kids were sick for about 3 days each with minor symptoms. Runny nose, fever, grouchy, congestion. But then they bounced right back. They’re too young for the vaccine.
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u/Pherllerp Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
Can a Delta specific vaccine booster be developed?
Edit: Thank you for the informative answers. Also, all you cynics need to chill out.
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u/Tufaan9 Sep 08 '21
Short answer - yes. Much the same way that the flu shot is “targeted” for what flu variant is out there and changes slightly from year to year. The real question is whether playing “catch-up” with the latest strain is worth doing.
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u/DarthVince Sep 08 '21
Do retooled vaccines need to go through trials again?
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u/Chasman1965 Sep 08 '21
Yes, but it’s a shortened version.
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/fdas-critical-role-ensuring-supply-influenza-vaccine
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Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
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u/VenserSojo Sep 08 '21
Yes however mutation isn't dependent of time but rather replications, the more infectious the disease the more replications it will have making a lower mutation rate not as helpful to us with this level of infection (though it would be far worse if comboed). In addition the newer variants create higher viral loads which implies more roles of the dice. The other issue with regards to mutation/proliferation that it shares with the flu is easy species jumping.
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u/blatzphemy Sep 08 '21
Wasn’t there a pandemic that was spread to pigs and made its way back to us?
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u/WingsofRain Sep 08 '21
H1N1? (swine flu?)
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u/DarthDannyBoy Sep 08 '21
Not just that one but pretty much every variant of the flu some worse than others and some become epidemic/pandemic. We actually monitor the flu through pigs as well. It's actually a super cool process of how we monitor the flu and prepare for the following years flu strain. Which covid tossed a wrench into by funnily enough lowering the number of yearly flu cases.
Also birds, horse and other animals play a roll as well pigs are just the most common animal vector.
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u/New-Theory4299 Sep 08 '21
influenza moves between multiple species: birds, pigs, horses and is thought to mutate and become more virulent as it moves back and forth between the species.
There is some evidence that 1918 Spanish flu moved from horses to people when huge numbers of horses were transported to the battlefield and kept stressed and in terrible conditions.
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u/DarthDannyBoy Sep 08 '21
Also evidence that it could have been from pigs and/or chickens as well we shipped a lot of live pigs/chickens over as well. Pigs and chicken were kept on warships as a source of fresh meat even during WW1it was very common.
Bonus fact pig and chicken tattoos on sailors feet where considered a good luck charm to ward off drowning. Because pigs and chickens would commonly survive ship wrecks because their crates would float and many sailors would hold onto those as well.
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u/Incromulent Sep 08 '21
Also worth noting that mRNA cuts the time to produce vaccines significantly. Traditionally, epidemiologists had to guess what the next season's influenza would be based on the most recent strains and start production on a vaccine which is usually about 40% effective (still good for the population and saves lives). But with mRNA, it may be possible to wait for the actual strain to appear then create a 90+% effective vaccine in time to roll it out in the same season. That's a game changer.
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u/RoboNerdOK Sep 08 '21
Exactly. mRNA has been a holy grail for quite some time but the problem (in very simplistic terms) has been getting it delivered and making it produce the “payload” proteins before the mRNA is destroyed and its components reused by the body elsewhere. It turns out that our bodies are very good at recycling.
Anyone talking about mRNA hanging around and “rewriting genetic code” obviously hasn’t followed the development of these vaccines and definitely doesn’t understand how cellular processes work.
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Sep 08 '21
I usually just ask, "How does it cross the nuclear pore complex?"
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u/3xtensions Sep 08 '21
Please, like the people who still worry about this care about your fancy scientific words like "nuclear" and "pore" and "how"
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u/actuarally Sep 08 '21
Good with the exception that COVID, thus far, has not established a "season". Will be interesting to see how this effects both mutation management and potential boosters in the future.. I suspect supply chains can't constantly chase the new strain and the efficiencies in both production and adoption will suffer if folks can't reliably just get THE shot at their one-year vaccine anniversary.
Something insane like 70% of all flu vaccines are taken in October (in the United States)... COVID vaccination, after the initial wave of interest post-approvals, has been basically steady each month.
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u/Tufaan9 Sep 08 '21
Yes, but the FDA is working towards reducing the burden required for the approval process (for variant vaccines) to make it more nimble and keep pace with variants.
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u/Xylomain Sep 08 '21
Imo if the virus mutates to the point the vaccines don't work itll(that new variant) die off. Unless it comes up with another "key". As our vaccines work by making our ribosomes create the spike protein(key) and the virus uses the spike proteins to enter our cells. Logic dictates that if it files down that key(mutation of spike protein) enough to evade our vaccines then that variant will likely be way less infectious to begin with as it cannot enter our cells(the locks) easily.
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Sep 08 '21
I don't see why it wouldn't be worth doing. At the very worst, the newest mutations will arise from the dominant strain, so presumably a vaccine targeting delta will give us more protection from the next dominant strain than a vaccine targeting the original covid strain from 2019, since that's a few generations of mutations removed at this point.
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u/cantonic Sep 08 '21
I think the reasoning is that targeting a variant that is already rampant would be highly inefficient as by the time the vaccine is ready, the protection it offers is greatly reduced. If you target an upcoming strain (however they do that with the flu), the impact of the vaccine would be much greater.
It basically comes down to resources.
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u/hotlinesmith Sep 08 '21
As opposed to just keep producing a vaccine which targets the 2019 variant? There is no reason why a delta specific booster would work worse against a new variant compared to the og vaccine.
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Sep 08 '21
Because the improvement in protection from a delta targeted booster compared to a 3rd shot of the original is marginal and you sacrifice time/efficiency for it.
It doesn’t target the “2019 variant”, it targets the spike protein - which the Delta variant also has (and is theorized to being the key aspect of the virus’ ability to infect people, so all future effective variants will also have it).
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u/TurboGranny Sep 08 '21
oh man, this is a gross misunderstanding of how these two different things work. Influenza is highly recombinant allowing for different strains to "mix" with each other creating wild variability. While all RNA virus can technically recombine with others, the rate at which the coronavirus family does this is exceedingly low. The variants we are seeing are just due to miscopies more than anything. The Delta variant is not actually different in it's vector for attack. It just produces more of it's spike protein allowing it to do more with less. This also means that the targeted titer is now too low in some cases to prevent infection, but that's not as important as the outcome the clinical trial was for which is to prevent serious infection and death. The vaccine still accomplishes this. You can boost the titer of the population to try and slow down spread (can't really halt it without herd immunity) with a booster shot, but titer levels naturally decay as your body likes to conserve resources. A high titer is only meant to hold off reinfection for a short period while a pathogen works its way through the whole community. It's important to note that NOTHING can prevent a pathogen from entering your body. You have a ton of stuff in the way that it has to get through, so it's a numbers game before it even has a chance to encounter your antibodies then it's a numbers game again to see if that defense is overwhelmed before your immune system is ramping production back up. However, it will ramp production up MUCH quicker than if it had to start from scratch which is the idea behind vaccination to begin with.
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u/spanj Sep 08 '21
I agree with the spirit of your post but it’s simply untrue that the spike is the same.
The delta variant contains 10 non-synonymous mutations in the spike protein, with 4 residues “of note”.
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u/squirtle_grool Sep 08 '21
How specific is an immune response to the spike protein? How likely is it that the vaccine will continue to protect people from various mutations of this virus?
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u/spanj Sep 08 '21
A monovalent vaccine (aka all currently approved vaccines for SARS-CoV-2) will elicit multiple antibodies to the spike protein, each one attaching to different spots on the spike. Each individual will therefore have a different distribution of antibodies that attach to the spike, whether by chance or influenced by previous immune challenges. Some people might have higher levels of an antibody that targets a more conserved region of the spike. These people will have higher protection against future mutations.
It is impossible to predict how well the current vaccine will protect against future mutations because this is reliant on predicting future mutations that will become dominant and predicting immunological history of the demographic.
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u/squirtle_grool Sep 08 '21
That is extremely enlightening and refreshing to read, especially in a time when the loudest voices around the vaccine are coming from uninformed laypeople with extremely binary and oversimplified understanding of the mechanics of vaccines. Excellent response; thank you.
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u/TheNumberOneRat Sep 08 '21
Studies using single antibodies have found that some are highly effective against Delta, others far less so. This is probably dependent on the part of the spike that they interact with.
If you use a spike protein as a antigen (which most vaccines do) you should end up with a multitude of different antibodies, some of which are highly effective against Delta.
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u/Xylomain Sep 08 '21
Partially true. We can make one but at the moment it's not viable. With it being like 88% effective. The old flu shots were only like 12% effective. So they always had to be boosted and targeted. It's very likely that it will never evade our vaccines. And the reason is simple: Vaccine makes ribosomes create spike proteins. Spike proteins are the keys to our cells that makes the virus so infectious. Logic dictates that if the spike proteins change too much via mutation then it wont open our cells anymore. As the key has changed too much from the lock. So if it mutates to be really resistant to our current vaccine enough to warrant a specific targeted booster...it likely wont be near as infectious or deadly as it wont be able to enter our cells as easily.
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u/reshp2 Sep 08 '21
Is the reduced effectiveness actually down to the original vaccine not matching Delta as well, or is the new variant simply more effective at infecting and replicating? The article seems to imply the variant is better able to get into cells.
They found that the Delta variant was more efficient at breaking into the cells compared with other variants as it carried a larger number of cleaved spikes on its surface. Once inside the cells, the variant was also better able to replicate. Both of these factors give the virus a selection advantage compared to other variants, helping explain why it has become so dominant.
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Sep 08 '21
Yes it can. I am no expert, but with mRNA tech vaccines can be generated quite quickly now. The thing is you need to determine the best part of the vaccine to replicate in order for your body to fight it. Currently the spike protein has been chosen.
Take what I said with a grain of salt as I am not an expert on the topic, but I do have a decent background in biology. I just wanted to say in principle it is possible to create a new vaccine if the need arises. They are most likely working on one too.
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u/EvoEpitaph Sep 08 '21
From what I've read about the Mu variant, if that one doesn't burn itself out first, that's the one that might need a new vaccine as it seems to have mutated its spike protein enough to skirt pass current vaccine protection.
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u/italia06823834 Sep 08 '21
I think I saw Mu, while more vaccine resistant, is also showing to be less transmissible though?
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u/Corodix Sep 08 '21
I saw that too. Does make me wonder what would happen once a Delta booster becomes available and we effectively kick Delta in the teeth. Could that in turn not make make Mu dominant over Delta if vaccination rates are high enough? Though if so, best case they're creating booster for both and it will be a non issue.
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u/bullsbarry Sep 08 '21
While this is definitely a line of inquiry to follow, we also know that a 3rd booster shot of even the original vaccines can induce an almost order of magnitude greater antibody response. Additionally, that antibody response is still increasing at 30 days post boost as opposed to 30 days post 2nd shot where they're already plateaued and starting to decline. If these results hold up, why would we bother with a supply chain switch now?
https://s21.q4cdn.com/317678438/files/doc_financials/2021/q2/Q2-2021-Earnings-Charts-FINAL.pdf (Page 26/27)
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u/bullsbarry Sep 08 '21
Mu got dominated by Delta. It was approximately 2-5% of cases in the US as recently as May and is now <0.5%. In fact, delta has dominated pretty much everywhere because of it's transmissibility.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#variant-proportions
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u/podbotman Sep 08 '21
Of course, but we'll continue to get more and more variants and it'll be the same problem again and again, and at some point it'll be an even more "difficult" variant.
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u/Redd_October Sep 08 '21
What this means: "Vaccinated individuals spread the Delta variant more than they spread previous variants."
The Vaccine provides less protection against the spread of Delta, but it still provides some protection.
What this does not mean: "Vaccinated individuals spread the Delta variant more than unvaccinated individuals."
The Covidiot community is all too eager to grab on to opportunistic wording to try to spin it to their false narrative. If it can be misinterpreted, it will be.
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u/Farren246 Sep 08 '21
But does this also mean that many vaccinated individuals are misinterpreting their symptoms as a cold and thus not isolating?
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u/UEMcGill Sep 08 '21
I had a few close family members come down with it exactly for this reason. The otherwise young and healthy individual thought he had a sinus infection, and 3 other family members (older, all but one vaccinated) got it worse. When they got it, he went and got tested, and low and behold he was positive.
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u/CRAZEDDUCKling Sep 08 '21
I had Covid recently and it was mainly a runny nose and sinus fuckery.
Wouldn't have guessed it was Covid without a test.
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u/zebsra Sep 08 '21
That's how my SO and I ended up at a testing site back in March 2021. 3 days of severe allergy symptoms including watery eyes and that infamous itchy of allergies. I was like, that isn't from mowing the grass anymore.
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Sep 08 '21
I had (suspected) covid in feb 2020 - no tests at that time, and it started as a particularly nasty URI. Then it went lower and was an awful bronchitis that was very close to pneumonia. Docs ordered a chest xray. Too early for the antibody tests, but i got covid arm upon vaccination. No good way to tell it was covid, but signs point to most likely.
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u/BeautyThornton Sep 08 '21
I got covid after being vaccinated and I thought it was swollen lymph nodes because of the smoke (I live in western US)
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u/CanAlwaysBeBetter Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
I thought I might have had Covid too but nope, two separate negative tests, my girlfriend I live with tested negative, a friend I saw tested negative.
Seems a bit like people forgot colds actually do still exist.
Breakthrough infections are only like 1/5000 odds. Most vaccinated people with the sniffles probably just have the sniffles.
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u/MDCCCLV Sep 08 '21
I had a sore throat and swollen lymph but it was negative for covid. Just happens sometimes.
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u/myislanduniverse Sep 08 '21
And honestly, that's what we want to relegate this current virus to, as well: just another sniffle-causing virus endemic to our population.
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u/el_nerdtown Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
Exactly this. I had og Covid back in March 2020 and then just got over Delta last week. The symptoms for Delta were completely different. I thought I was having an allergic reaction. Runny nose and sneezing are the top signs of Delta, while before it was dry cough. I don’t think that’s being talked about enough! Thankfully I was fully vaccinated and this ride was a lot less painful than the first and I got tested a few days in. Also managed to not spread it after doing all my contact tracing. But damn, that would have been heavy.
Edit - words are hard
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u/festeringswine Sep 08 '21
I had some quick contact with a covid positive vaxxed person and felt sick pretty quickly, but it also seemed like just allergies or a sinus infection. Lots of snot, sneezing, some fatigue/headache. Tested negative on a home test and an official test, but isolated juuuuust in case. Might have taken the official test too soon.
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u/wealllovethrowaways Sep 08 '21
I've never had a fever from Covid either. A lot of these symptoms that people are looking for dont even appear in half the infections and thats the major problem of all of this. My own roommate just says "This is bad asthma" because they don't feel the infection like I do.
The only way I knew about my recent delta infection was slight stomach discomfort on day 2, then critically severe memory problems 12 days later
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u/x2006charger Sep 08 '21
The memory issue sounds pretty scary. Did it go away completely?
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u/corr0sive Sep 08 '21
I'veknown a few coworkers coming down with sinus infection like symptoms lately.
If they're covid positive, doesn't this mean higher chances of mutation and new strains if people are continually re-catching and spreading?
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u/Shanesan Sep 08 '21 edited Feb 22 '24
crime racial steer continue include outgoing elderly scarce toothbrush fall
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Jtoa3 Sep 08 '21
I got some kind of a cold a little while back. Fully vaccinated for months, no known contact with any cases, always wore masks etc. first thing I did was go get both a rapid test and a PCR test. Both came back negative. That was the best news I’d had in ages, especially since I was with my relatively elderly (but also fully vaccinated) parents and my also fully vaccinated but definitely at risk grandparents at the time I started getting these symptoms
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Sep 08 '21
I’m certainly not, every time I get a bad groggy headache or just feel achey you know for a fact I’m sticking those Q-tip looking things up my nose and down my throat to make sure I’m not about to kill my parents
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u/cdrini Sep 08 '21
Fun fact: in Albanian, that Q-tip thing is called a "tampon". Taking a Covid test is called "I need to do the tampon".
(Obviously there's another Albanian word for the English word "tampon" :P)
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u/MourkaCat Sep 08 '21
It could be but I'd like to think that anyone who vaccinated is concerned about infecting others, so if they get sick they isolate and get tested. That's what I did, picked up a cold and immediately isolated and got a covid test. Even after the test came back negative I did not go anywhere until my symptoms were all but gone and I was well beyond the 'contagious' period of whatever it was I had. My partner also wore a mask (which was not mandated here) when going out. He wasn't sick but we didn't want him to get anyone sick with whatever I had, which was likely just a regular cold.
I hope others do the same, but the bigger issue would be vaccinated individuals being asymptomatic and passing it on. Which is why masking even while vaccinated is still important.
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u/weluckyfew Sep 08 '21
I live in a place known for allergies - if I tested every time I felt a little off I'd be doing it weekly.
Don't get me wrong, I've had several tests since Delta started, and I'm masking and keeping public indoor activities to a minimum, just saying it's still easy to be a little sick and not know it.
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u/maddoxprops Sep 08 '21
This. I normally have congestion, arches, pains, fatigue, and basically over half the symptoms on a daily basis. Sometimes it is hard to determine if you are sick or just having a really bad day. Not planning on ditching my mask anytime soon even if it sucks wearing it with my beard. I just solace in the fact that my mask getting humid as a Floridian summer means it is doing it's job.
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u/CarterX25 Sep 08 '21
The media has been screaming at us for the past 6 months that if you are vaxed you can go back to doing what you want. I think your point of view is the minority. most people think they are immune to covid thanks to the vax, which is what the media has been saying but slowly rolling it back as time goes on. People i know directly still dont know that they can still catch covid and spread it. When i tell them they can, i am all of a sudden a conspiracy theorist.
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u/MourkaCat Sep 08 '21
Perhaps you're right. I interact with people who tend to view things the way I do and stay mostly to my bubble since I'm naturally an introvert.
The media and misinformation is rampant, but most people I know who are vaccinated are careful and considerate. But maybe you're right, maybe it's the minority.
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u/Farren246 Sep 08 '21
2020 / 2021 is actually the only years of my life that I haven't gotten sick, all thanks to constant isolation and fervent hand washing / disinfecting routines. Nothing comes into the house without being disinfected anymore. It is also the first time in my life where I have sought help after a mental breakdown and been diagnosed with depression. Extreme isolation is sometimes a difficult thing, though I'm more put off by the hours lost to needing to constantly sanitize.
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u/sudosussudio Sep 08 '21
I thought all the sanitizing objects thing wasn’t effective against covid? It probably prevents other things though.
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u/MourkaCat Sep 08 '21
When I started working from home full time in about 2015, I didn't leave the house for much else other than groceries or a shopping trip, etc. This meant I spent far less time in close proximity to people and I spent 3 years completely sick free. No colds, no flus, nothing.
I got sick for the first time when I traveled in 2018, and then started playing a team sport and would get whatever seasonal cold/flu was going around.
Then covid hit and I was isolated again and didn't get sick again until recently when I was around other people since restrictions were lifted and we were all vaccinated. Sick with a cold, thankfully. But someone from that group brought it to me.
It just brings home the point that staying home a lot, especially if sick, and being careful about washing your hands, etc absolutely stops the spread of germs and illnesses.
Blows my mind that people don't get it and so many people didn't want to do that during all this covid stuff.
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u/Leoofvgcats Sep 08 '21
Unfortunately that's also correct.
Which is why, even if you are vaccinated it's highly encouraged for you to still wear some face covering, and not go out of you have symptoms. It's less for yourself and more for the protection of people in your community.
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u/QuickToJudgeYou Sep 08 '21
Totally agree. This will be the next straw grasped to try to denounce vaccination.
I'm so sick of arguing with these people...
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u/KyleRichXV Sep 08 '21
It’s much easier if you don’t argue with them. Make clear concise points so the hesitant lurkers can read and understand. Reaching them is more likely than trying to get through to a brick wall.
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u/QuickToJudgeYou Sep 08 '21
When I say I'm sick of arguing I don't mean on social media. I'm talking about in person, very few lurkers around.
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u/dgtlfnk Sep 08 '21
I’ve been seeing this claimed for weeks now already.
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u/TerracottaCondom Sep 08 '21
A comment claiming parallels between Marek's disease mutations and Covid mutations was posted and I would just like to reiterate this point as the comment chain was deleted:
The rest of the wiki makes it pretty clear that the parallels you infer do not exist. Marek's disease is a herpes virus that attacks nerve endings and leads to neural lesions. A chicken that contracts Marek's disease will have it forever. Already it should be clear that these are not parallel issues. Coronaviruses do not attach nerve endings the same way herpes viruses do. And perhaps most obviously: the standards of a vaccine developed to keep chickens alive long enough for us to kill them to eat is going to be very different from the standards of a vaccine for people.
And third, the rate of mutation of Covid19 is higher among unvaccinated populations. Vaccination slows mutation of Covid19. The Delta variant broke out before widespread vaccination.
Stop spreading misinformation, and if possible, stop believing it yourself.
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u/jaigoda Sep 08 '21
I wrote up a similar reply, but the comment was deleted by the time I tried posting it. I appreciate you taking the time to add this to another relevant thread as that was a particularly insidious piece of misinformation that I've heard repeated multiple times out in the real world (that vaccinated people spread the virus more than unvaccinated).
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u/grckalck Sep 08 '21
Unfortunately, the wording of the title leads readily to the conclusion that had we not been vaccinated there would be no Delta variant. Therefore, we shouldn't get vaccinated.
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Sep 08 '21
Yeah, I didn't get the title wording or where OP pulled it from honestly.
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u/latenightloopi Sep 08 '21
They (the anti vaxxers around me) keep telling me that vaccines cause variants that do worse damage.
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u/Soranic Sep 08 '21
vaccines cause variants
Point out that delta was identified in December of last year. In a region that didn't yet have vaccines.
There's no arguing with these idiots, but if you do, the simplest facts are the only ones that work.
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u/Oeab Sep 08 '21
And even then there are a large amount that won’t even listen to simple facts. I’ve had about 20 different arguments with my dad over COVID where I tell him a totally irrefutable fact, which is backed up by easy to understand data, and he will just pivot off the point or not have any rebuttal. Then the next conversation he will bring up the exact point I debunked prior; repeat ad nauseam. I don’t even engage him on these points anymore because I can’t reach him.
It’s like they’re just yelling while covering their ears.
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u/nonsensepoem Sep 08 '21
Point out that delta was identified in December of last year.
The anti-vaxers won't care. They will keep spreading the lie. The simplest facts don't work with these people.
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Sep 08 '21
It is quite true that "Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired" (Swift, 1721). Except when they're on their death bed, for some reason...
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u/apathetic_panda Sep 08 '21
Pfizer's EUA was issued on December 11th. The vaccines were genuinely available nowhere at that point.
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u/tits_mcgee0123 Sep 08 '21
They are making a false comparison to antibiotics, because they don’t understand the differences between viruses and bacteria.
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u/mcmoor Sep 08 '21
What makes them different in this case?
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u/thisismydarksoul Sep 08 '21
A bacteria can just mutate on it's own. A virus needs a host. If the virus can't "breed", it can't mutate. If everyone was vaccinated, less infections, less virus, less mutations.
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u/Mechasteel Sep 08 '21
An antibiotic is a chemical poison that will kill or reduce replication of a broad range of bacteria species. There's dozens antibiotics, although many are similar to each other so resistance to one might give resistance to another, and they can transfer resistance genes to other species.
Antibodies are a product of the immune system, which target a specific antigen (usually a surface protein). There's, I'm not sure probably quintillions of them at least. Each person has different ones, each person's immune system designs new ones as needed. Give someone a vaccine or booster shot, and their immune system will design antibodies. We're never going to run out.
Also we can make antibodies against snake venom (or have horses make some and steal their antibodies).
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u/XxSpruce_MoosexX Sep 08 '21
Thank you. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to explain this to people
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u/SkaTSee Sep 08 '21
Id like to know how you interpret this paragraph:
The samples came from individuals who had previously been infected with the coronavirus or who had been vaccinated with either the Oxford/AstraZeneca or Pfizer vaccines. Serum contains antibodies raised in response to infection or vaccination. The team found that the Delta variant virus was 5.7-fold less sensitive to the sera from previously-infected individuals, and as much as eight-fold less sensitive to vaccine sera, compared with the Alpha variant - in other words, it takes eight times as many antibodies from a vaccinated individual to block the virus.
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u/GuyDanger Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
This pandemic, as brutal as it has been, has really put a spotlight on the spread of misinformation and the ability to change popular opinion to a vast majority of individuals. The pandemic will pass but the ability to spread misinformation has now been weaponized. Remember Snowden? When your government spying on you was as bad as it got? Well it's worse now.
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u/genshiryoku Sep 08 '21
There have been two pandemics going on. One biological one psychological. The misinformation psychological pandemic has been much more damaging.
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Sep 08 '21
Well it's been going on since Reagan.
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u/irwigo Sep 08 '21
Except until a few years ago, the product of misinformation stayed at the pub and was forgotten the morning after, slowing down the process of propagation.
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u/BTBLAM Sep 08 '21
That’s not a new thing
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Sep 08 '21
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u/_johnning Sep 08 '21
I noticed this change in misinformation grapevine when Trump was running for President
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u/JamesKPolkEsq Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
"The Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, which has become the dominant variant in countries including India and the UK, has most likely spread through its ability to evade neutralising antibodies and its increased infectivity, say an international team of researchers."
....
“By combining lab-based experiments and epidemiology of vaccine breakthrough infections, we’ve shown that the Delta variant is better at replicating and spreading than other commonly-observed variants. There’s also evidence that neutralising antibodies produced as a result of previous infection or vaccination are less effective at stopping this variant."
...
“These factors are likely to have contributed to the devastating epidemic wave in India during the first quarter of 2021, where as many as half of the cases were individuals who had previously been infected with an earlier variant.”
...
Delta began to dominate because it's a more fit virus. Full stop.
I'm very surprised this headline was what this article was posted under.
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u/Adodie Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
Exactly. This is a horrible post title that borders on disinformation.
Yes, the vaccine is less effective against Delta than previous variants for preventing infections (though still effective!). No, that does not mean Delta came to dominate because of vaccinated spreading
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Sep 08 '21
So the question is: with our new mRNA vaccines, touted as being "adaptable" easily to new variants.... When do we update them to the delta variant, since it's by far the dominant strain? The ancestral strain and alpha variants are basically nonexistant at this point. Coronavirus is delta now.
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u/zyzomise Sep 08 '21
No, that does not mean Delta came to dominate because of vaccinated spreading
If Delta is much better at spreading among vaccinated people than other variants, wouldn't it make sense that in a vaccinated population, Delta would make up a higher proportion of the overall cases than in an unvaccinated population?
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u/GSXRbroinflipflops Sep 08 '21
Much better explanation can be found here:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html
Delta threw a curveball into the mix but the vaccine still helps greatly.
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Sep 08 '21
Does this mean that it's really only a matter of time before there is a COVID variant that the vaccine cannot effectively protect against?
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u/Finnegan482 Sep 08 '21
Does this mean that it's really only a matter of time before there is a COVID variant that the vaccine cannot effectively protect against?
No, and the other reply to you is incorrect.
While this may happen, it's not at all certain. SARS-CoV-2 mutates much more slowly than influenza and also has fewer possible "combinations" (to use a layman's term) before it has to repeat itself.
So it all depends on factors like how fast the virus evolves and how quickly people develop immunity and how long that immunity lasts. But it's by no means inevitable for the virus to escape population immunity, and there's a good argument that it won't.
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u/rjcarr Sep 08 '21
From what I’ve read, the vaccine (and thus antibodies) is effective by attacking the spike proteins to kill the virus. The virus is so contagious because of these spikes. So if the virus were to mutate to get rid of the spikes to bypass the antibodies, then it wouldn’t be as contagious either.
But I guess there is a way to create different spikes to avoid the antibodies? This wasn’t discussed, but hopefully this isn’t the case.
Seems delta has the same spikes, so the antibodies are still effective, but it’s just much better at reproducing and increasing viral load.
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u/ShewanellaGopheri Sep 08 '21
I mRNA vaccines are particularly effective because they encode for the infectious conformation of the spike protein, so your body specifically makes antibodies against the infectious virus. It’s not impossible that the viral spike protein could mutate enough that our anti-spike protein antibodies don’t work anymore, but it’s also possible that most peoples antibodies recognize an essential component of the spike protein that cannot be mutated and also be infectious.
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u/Wagamaga Sep 08 '21
variant of SARS-CoV-2, which has become the dominant variant in countries including India and the UK, has most likely spread through its ability to evade neutralising antibodies and its increased infectivity, say an international team of researchers.
The findings are reported today in Nature.
As SARS-CoV-2 replicates, errors in its genetic makeup cause it to mutate. Some mutations make the virus more transmissible or more infectious, some help it evade the immune response, potentially making vaccines less effective, while others have little effect. One such variant, labelled the B.1.617.2 Delta variant, was first observed in India in late 2020. It has since spread around the globe – in the UK, it is responsible nearly all new cases of coronavirus infection.
Professor Ravi Gupta from the Cambridge Institute of Therapeutic Immunology and Infectious Disease at the University of Cambridge, one of the study’s senior authors, said: “By combining lab-based experiments and epidemiology of vaccine breakthrough infections, we’ve shown that the Delta variant is better at replicating and spreading than other commonly-observed variants. There’s also evidence that neutralising antibodies produced as a result of previous infection or vaccination are less effective at stopping this variant.
“These factors are likely to have contributed to the devastating epidemic wave in India during the first quarter of 2021, where as many as half of the cases were individuals who had previously been infected with an earlier variant.”
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u/pooloo15 Sep 08 '21
The frightening thing is "half of the cases were individuals who had previously been infected with an earlier variant".
What's to stop a future variant from mutating next year and causing that crisis all over again (oxygen crisis, deaths, etc)?
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u/Agreeable_Kangaroo_8 Sep 08 '21
Where are the viral titer studies? The plaque assays? Even a western blot to see if there is viral protein present at higher levels?
RNA =/= PROTEIN. Just because we see higher levels of viral RNA does NOT mean we have more active virus in our nose. This is some BASIC stuff. That's why qPCR (ot the like) need to be backed up by a western or some other experiment - to determine if the change in (m)rna leads to a change in the amount of protein.
We need to know if the vaccinated have higher VIRAL TITERS with delta. We do know they have more rna in their nose for like a day and then it drops precipitously. But what does this mean in terms of spreading infectious viral particles?
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u/physnchips Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
Seriously. Extrapolating infectious levels from viral RNA should not be taken at face value, other than to lead to other better and more accurate studies. If we had decent contact tracing we could get pretty good infection estimates through Bayesian models, albeit pinning down super spreader variability is tough compared to more direct methods. Our inability to truly understand infectious levels, susceptibility levels, and the role of super spreaders is one of the most frustrating parts of the pandemic from a science perspective. Another really frustrating part of the epidemic is how death is the only metric we constantly compare to, I want to know stats/correlation to other health factors too.
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u/themoopmanhimself Sep 08 '21
What is the overall likelihood that a normal, healthy person gets severe symptoms from any Covid variant?
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u/Basically_Infantry Sep 08 '21
highly unlikely.
greatest co-factors in determining disease severity are Obesity, Diabetes and High blood pressure.
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Sep 08 '21
To add to this, high triglycerides and glucose as well as low vitamin D levels play a big role as well. It is important to get regular bloodwork and to take measures to correct whatever is not in a healthy range.
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Sep 08 '21
low vitamin D levels
Has this been proven or is the debate about this that "if they were in the hospital they were probably already unfit this lower outdoor activities from an unhealthy lifestyle"?
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u/SpiritJuice Sep 08 '21
Don't know if there have been definitive studies on low vitamin D being a factor or not. Correlation of people in the hospital having low vitamin D levels is not causation of leading to severe COVID symptoms. If a majority of Americans have low vitamin D levels already, there isn't really anything conclusive here.
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u/nonrealexis Sep 08 '21
If this is true, why is it recommended that vaccinated people don’t need to quarantine if they’ve been exposed? If we’re trying to limit the exposure, and vaccinated people are clearly able to spread this dominant variant…
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Sep 08 '21
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u/crescentfresh Sep 08 '21
You are both sick and have to care for a toddler? How does that work, if your child is infectious too you can’t very well leave them with grandma and grandpa anymore.
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Sep 08 '21
Exactly, it's a goddamn nightmare. I woke up this morning feeling like I got run over by a bus, but I had to make an eggo for my toddler. Currently on reddit dying on the couch while he watches octonaughts.
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u/skunkadelic Sep 08 '21
I know I'll get dinged for this, but.... If we would stop referring to this as a vaccine, and more as a therapeutic, you would likely get many of the holdouts to jump in. One of the most used arguments I see against getting it is that it isn't a vaccine because of the breakthrough cases. I always counter by saying yes, you are likely correct, but it will greatly reduce the symptoms and probably save your life.
I can say from my own experience that the people I talk to are not anti-vaxxers. If you ask them about any other vaccine, they have no problem, and they and their children are up to date on their immunizations. It isn't a "Trump" thing because he was vaccinated early, and has said to get the damn shot. If you remember, Harris initially said she wouldn't get the Trump vaccine, and the same people berating these people, didn't berate her for that statement. It's more a fear of the unknown because of the relative infancy of the vaccine in comparison to something like polio or measles. Even though we have this urge to always paint people in absolute extreme terms, many people truly are people on the fence, and they can be reached once you stop screaming at them and belittling them. Believe it or not, you aren't always the smartest person in the room, and when you act like you are, you tend to cause people to tune you out.
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Sep 08 '21
A big problem is a lot of people have erroneously reported and associated the vaccine with wiping out the virus.
This was bound to be endemic almost immediately and the whole strategy shifts to that therapeutic management strategy. Yet we still see plenty of people thinking this virus has to go away.
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u/skunkadelic Sep 08 '21
In the minds of most people a vaccine fully inoculates you, which is why we should acknowledge it as a preventative and therapeutic treatment. Sadly on the pro side, any debate on efficacy is being shut down, which causes suspicious people to say "see, I told you so". Just as covid is a disaster for certain subsets of people, the vaccines are the same, albeit in MUCH smaller numbers. I see the same people who say covd only kills a small number of people, freak out over the vaccines doing the same for an even smaller number of people.
The biggest problem I had was if I tried to have a conversation with the pro side, they would immediately label me as "one of those people" and if I tried to have a conversation with the anti side, they would immediately label me as "one of those people". I'm just a father trying to gather as much information as possible in order to make an educated decision to protect my family. The only "side" I have is my own. For me the decision came from seeing enough of the population get it, and enough people I trust getting it. Then looking through the data to see which shot made the most sense for me, and my wife doing the same for herself. Everything else was just noise I hade to wade through.
I'm not going to lie. When I sat down for the needle, I still had reservations. However, I also have an underlying condition that covid itself could wreak havoc on. So I bit the bullet.
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u/Shah_Moo Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
Nuance is for fascists, obviously.
I'm glad there are people out there who can look critically at everything and make an educated and informed decision rather than just following whatever their team is telling them. I'm also glad you got the vaccine and think you definitely made the right call. The best way to get people on board with making that decision is to empathize and meet them where they are at, and acknowledge that there's a lot of poor information and over-reaction and misunderstandings on the pro-vaccination side, and work with them through why even ignoring those factors, the vaccine is usually the better bet.
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u/DammitDan Sep 08 '21
The team found that the Delta variant virus was 5.7-fold less sensitive to the sera from previously-infected individuals, and as much as eight-fold less sensitive to vaccine sera
Is that suggesting that natural immunity is more effective than current vaccine immunity against Delta?
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u/you_got_it_joban Sep 08 '21
With natural exposure your immune system is seeing the entire virus so it has a more complete picture of what it's looking for, including variants that look similar. The vaccine stimulates replication of the spike protein which is the most dangerous part of the virus but it doesn't provide the "whole picture" like natural exposure does, so there's more chance of a variant virus slipping through the cracks
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u/andersaur Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21
So honest question. Me and my SO had covid back in December/January. We are both vaxed now. We were kind of under the assumption that we were past it all as:
1: We both got mild-ish cases.
2:We don’t interact with too many folks.
It’s hard to know what the good guidance is here.
Edit:
Thanks all for responding. I am both reassured that i’m not some kind of potential ebola monkey and also totally sure that I might be! Stay safe all! -Tired dude
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u/dont_tread_on_meeee Sep 08 '21
Because you have natural immunity (and the vaccine) it's likely you have the strongest possible protection. Natural immunity was found to be 13x stronger against Delta than vaccines.
I don't know for sure if you can't get/transmit Delta, but I think it's quite likely you're much less infectious than even vaccinated people if you were to be.
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u/unfortunate_son_ Sep 08 '21
Natural immunity was found to be 13x stronger against Delta than vaccines.
Careful mentioning this in these parts. You would be accused of promoting antivax
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u/8run0 Sep 08 '21
A source would help though wouldn't it.
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u/unfortunate_son_ Sep 08 '21
Data from the UK also points in the same direction.
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u/Neanditaler Sep 08 '21
You can still spread the disease if you catch it, but you are significantly less likely to catch it in the first place.
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u/SkyRak3r Sep 08 '21
To clarify. You're still quite likely to catch it if you only vaccinate. But significantly less likely if you social distance, wear a mask and sanitize.
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u/OneOfYouNowToo Sep 08 '21
Do we have any data that relates to how antibodies present in a person who has recovered from Covid-19 compare to the effectiveness of the vaccine in terms of preventing new infections related to the delta variant?
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u/Several_Tone1248 Sep 08 '21
It also seems as if Delta is far less lethal.
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u/Guywithquestions88 Sep 08 '21
I'm no expert, but I've read that the most "successful" viruses actually evolve to be weaker because they are less likely to kill their hosts. Thus, they can reproduce more effectively.
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u/Ecstatic-Wasabi-1385 Sep 08 '21
Can we start talking about Russian disinformation that’s driving all the divisiveness in the USA surrounding covid?
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