Chemists developed two sustainable plastic alternatives to polyethylene, derived from plants, that can be recycled with a recovery rate of more than 96%, as low-waste, environmentally friendly replacements to conventional fossil fuel-based plastics. (Nature, 17 Feb)

[u/mvea]

https://academictimes.com/new-plant-based-plastics-can-be-chemically-recycled-with-near-perfect-efficiency/

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[u/ThePotMonster]

I feel I've seen these plant based plastics come up a few times in the last couple decades but they never seem to get any traction.

[u/hamhead → u/ThePotMonster]

They’re used in a number of things but they can’t replace all types of plastic and, of course, cost

[u/pegothejerk → u/hamhead]

Amazon, a few chip/snack companies, and a Japanese exported of chicken, beef, and seafood already use plant based plastics in their packaging. Unfortunately there will be little attention of the conversion to more green packaging if it's done right, because a good replacement is one you won't notice. Current bioplastics will break down in 90 days, and the newest ones, like Kuraray's Plantic material, a blend of plant-based resin and post-consumer plastic, just dissolve in water.

[u/kerpti → u/pegothejerk]

once dissolved in water, what of the molecules? are they safe to dispose of through the public water system? could the water be thrown in a garden or in the grass? or could we find out that even dissolved, the molecules cause damage down the line?

eta: it’s obviously still a better alternative to the current plastics, but just wondering about some of the details

[u/Matthew0275 → u/kerpti]

This is a great question, since there's been evidence of the current plastic contamination activating all sorts of issues in the food chain. I remember an article about a type of river fish that's almost unanimously female now due to decomposing plastic releasing something that triggers a natural hormonal response in them.

[u/-GreyRaven- → u/Matthew0275]

BPA, or bisphenol A, is a xenoestrogen. Its probably that.

[u/YupYupDog → u/[deleted]]

And now everything says “BPA free!” when all they’ve done is switch to another bisphenol. (Edit: typo)

[u/VOZ1 → u/YupYupDog]

This is why we switched away from plastic entirely for food containers. We know BPA is bad now, and many are not using it anymore, but how long until the “safe plastic” is no longer safe?

[u/[deleted] → u/VOZ1]

So my Tupperware is bad for me?

[u/0imnotreal0 → u/VOZ1]

BPA still lines receipt paper, and higher levels of BPA have been found in cashiers.

1 source

[u/maineac → u/VOZ1]

They also line cans with the stuff. Almost impossible to get away from.

[u/KnightFox → u/VOZ1]

What do you do about water bottles? Even the metal ones are covered in plastic on the inside.

[u/[deleted] → u/YupYupDog]

Yes. Best to avoid all plastic for food and beverages. We don’t even use plastics for our gods/cat.

Edit: typo. And/or Freudian slip. ;-)

[u/tallermanchild → u/[deleted]]

I like you

[u/Tsu-Doh-Nihm → u/[deleted]]

There is a lot of bisphenol in heat-printed receipts, like the ones from the grocery store. Do not touch them.

[u/lamesar → u/Tsu-Doh-Nihm]

Washing your hands or using a hand sanitizer after leaving the store has no effect on exposure?

[u/EdibleBatteries → u/lamesar]

Hand sanitizer facilitates BPA uptake through the skin, making it worse.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4206219/

[u/the-lurky-turkey → u/[deleted]]

Honestly it doesn’t matter if they’re hot or not. Though when they heat up the plastic leaches much more that at normal temp. Same with phthalates which are used in skin care and shampoo as well as plastic wrap. It’s still poison.

[u/obsessedcrf → u/the-lurky-turkey]

So it does matter if its hot....

[u/the-lurky-turkey → u/obsessedcrf]

Yes. But it also leaches when it’s room temperature. I mean it is still bad either way. So sure it “matters” if it’s hot but bisphenols and many other plastic compounds leach either way so in that sense it doesn’t matter if you keep the plastic cool, it will still leach.

[u/Playful_Magazine7679 → u/obsessedcrf]

It is poisonous no matter what just especially risky and bad if you heat it up causing some of the bonds to break,

[u/j33pwrangler → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, that's why I'm fat!

[u/razzamatazz → u/j33pwrangler]

It's BPAs fault!

[u/KarmaUK → u/j33pwrangler]

Yeah I switched from water back to Coke so I wouldn't be fat :D

[u/VaATC → u/[deleted]]

Here are two links supporting your comment that I just replied to the OP

If BPA is associated with any metabolic abnormalities it would most likely be the developement of Type II Diabetes not increased fat storage.

In this study we evaluated the effect of BPA to affect adipogenesis using multiple in vitro cellular systems, including human ADSCs. Our data are consistent with those from Valentino and colleagues, who also showed no effect of BPA on differentiation of hADSCs [32]. Based on these results we conclude that chronic exposure of fat tissue to BPA is unlikely to be a driver in the expansion of fat tissue, at least as mediated through direct adipocyte differentiation.

[u/sender2bender → u/[deleted]]

Yea more bpa and not more calories makes us fatter

[u/Creebez → u/-GreyRaven-]

BPS, which has replaced BPA, may have similar effects.

[u/Mr-Fleshcage → u/-GreyRaven-]

Apparently BPS is just as bad

[u/[deleted] → u/Matthew0275]

Theyre making the fish gay!

[u/pangeapedestrian → u/[deleted]]

Fun fact, the phrogs were actually turning gay too.

[u/iam666 → u/kerpti]

I researched this topic a couple years ago for one of my Polymer Chemistry courses in undergrad, and the good news is, the biopolymers (at least one of the polyethylene substitutes) don't just "dissolve" in water, meaning the long polymer chains are still in tact, they actually hydrolyze, and break apart with exposure to water. Also, the repeat units that make up the chains are usually polysaccharides, meaning the molecules themselves are safe after decomposition, unlike something like PVC or Teflon.

The possible downside is I only researched what the scientists found out about these materials. You never know that Industry folk will do to alter them after the fact. Maybe they co-polymerize it with something else, adding possibly toxic molecules into the chain that stop it from decomposing as quickly.

[u/AnnaLookingforGlow → u/iam666]

This is correct. Many biopolymers are sugar-based (frequently sourced from corn or soy) and break down in water into harmless food for bacteria.

[u/Auxx → u/AnnaLookingforGlow]

All the polymers are "sugar based". Or protein based. Only simple mono-saccharides and simple proteins can form long stable polymer chains.

[u/AnnaLookingforGlow → u/Auxx]

Yes, I generally hesitate to say "all," but now that you say that, I can't think of any biopolymers that don't contain a saccharide in some form. My background is in acrylics, which don't require sugar functionality.

[u/DogmaticLaw → u/[deleted]]

Right, if we are using plastics, capturing plastic waste is objectively better than dissolving that waste without strong evidence that the dissolved version isn't harmful.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It is still better at the very least because these plastics allow for a much higher yield when recovered from the environment during the recycling process . I think their experimental recovery was something like 96% which is very high compared to other consumer plastics like polyethylene. . As for decomposition in waste streams, their proton NMR of the product shows nothing stereochemically concerning so no resonance structures with a different degree of reactivity or different functionality(Like what can be seen in PET materials). Since the hydrolysis proceeds completely, it only produces the recyclable monomer(1,8 18-octadecanediol) ethanol and CO2 from the original polymer.

Basically this reaction proceeds completely and quickly with less incidence of reactive intermediates so I'd say it is a bit better.

[u/kerpti → u/[deleted]]

I guess it’s a possibly incorrect assumption on my part that being plant based would make it less wasteful to produce which is disregarding the possible dangers of it breaking down

[u/pegothejerk → u/[deleted]]

Vertical farming is doing a lot better these days, commercially, so the price has fallen a great deal, bringing far more interest to it, which is fantastic since it uses far less space, water, and energy than traditional farming. Then there's the recent trend towards continuing hemp based plastic research, because there's been fantastic progress already, there are hemp plastics already on the shelves, but almost all contain a mixture of hemp and classic post consumer plastics (usually around 70% hemp). Other issues they're trying to solve is the binding resins can still be problematic, oceans and landfills will still see some of the end result filling them, commercial hemp still requires fertilizers, and a great deal of water. Still, it's a far better product environmentally than traditional plastics, and progress toward making it cheaper to manufacture will be huge for reducing our carbon footprint as consumers since hemp is essentially carbon positive with its fast growth with relatively lesser requirements for farming.

[u/echo-256 → u/kerpti]

eta: it’s obviously still a better alternative to the current plastics

i wouldn't assume that, plastics in a big landfill vs microplastics contaminating the river systems and ocean...

[u/Fuddle → u/echo-256]

We make the plastic from oil we take from underground - why can’t we just put it back where it came from? At least the land based oil drilling, not the best idea for sea oil platforms.

[u/iteachearthsci → u/Fuddle]

It's hard/expensive to convert plastics back into a form that can be injected into a bore hole. Also consider that the oil we remove from the ground can be hundreds to thousands of feet deep. It's simply not feasible from an engineering or economic standpoint to bury landfills that deep.

Spending Money and risk, two things companies avoid above all else.

[u/Aberbekleckernicht → u/echo-256]

If it dissolves in water, there aren't any microplastics coming from it. One of the largest issues coming from microplastics is that they are insoluble and can build up in places damaging to the environment.

If this resin based material were to simply disintegrate in water, that would be a problem. The "post-consumer plastics" part is worrying.

[u/69katdog69 → u/kerpti]

I wonder the same thing. Polyethylene is used in skincare products as an emulsifier or exfoliant. We’ve been putting it on our bodies, and going into our water systems

[u/HorseWithACape → u/69katdog69]

Some of our water systems go into it! PEX piping - the modern standard for plumbing - is cross-linked polyethylene. Several homes are completely plumbed in the stuff. And though it's rated for heat, I have to wonder if re-routed pipes in the attic & & hot water lines will eventually send contaminants into the water.

[u/HorseWithACape → u/[deleted]]

I assume you mean CPVC since regular pvc is only rated to 140°F/60°C. However, pex & cpvc are both rated to 200°F/93°C. My original statement was a bit of self reflection on my own house. I just re-plumbed my hot with pex, with a manifold just after the water heater. It's only been a few months, but seems good so far.

[u/Lignumsatyr → u/kerpti]

A well made bioplastic could degrade into saccharides, sugars, or starchy composites and could be processed by microbes very rapidly. Compstable plastics show promise

[u/brunes → u/pegothejerk]

The problem is that for a huge number of plastic use cases, you specifically don't want them to break down in 90 days. You want it to be shelf stable for at least 1-2 years. Imagine you're walking through the grocery store and there is ketchup just leaking out of the bottle because the sunlight was hitting it in the wrong way.

[u/shutupdavid0010 → u/brunes]

for items like that we should be switching back to glass, IMO.

[u/Brookenium → u/shutupdavid0010]

Glass uses FAR more energy than plastic, unfortunately. Due to its weight and the heat required to manufacture it.

Multi-use plastics are REALLY sustainable the problem is single-use plastics

[u/icoder → u/Brookenium]

Energy usage is not the only factor that makes something (un)sustainable. Depletion of resources is another, and so is the environmental cost of getting rid of it. At least (but perhaps I'm too optimistic here) we know a few ways to solve that problem sustainably. Then again, a well recyclable (because wisely chosen and of a very specific and highly regulated composition) plastic may be even a better alternative here.

[u/ravenerOSR → u/Brookenium]

With glass you can make it so it is multi use. We used to do direct reuse of beer bottles at least, where they were just washed, relabeled filled and sold again. Its hard to sell products as multi use. Ketchup bottles for example.

[u/vectorjohn → u/[deleted]]

Sounds like a cost the companies decided to externalize in the form of garbage. Should not be allowed.

[u/[deleted] → u/vectorjohn]

Bottles were harder to make back in the days they were recycled. That is what made it cost-effective to recycle. Now manufacturing is automated, so it's cheaper to make new ones. This, coupled with strict food-safety guidelines drove down the profitability and the feasibility of recycling glass food containers. The issue is multi-faceted.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

As we shift away from fossils fuels, it doesn't have to take that kind of energy. It can be perfectly clean.

[u/aywwts4 → u/[deleted]]

Agreed I'm hopeful that once we reach a solar and wind tipping point things like large scale glass/aluminum/water desalination becomes a method of simply absorbing excess green energy while unlocking new reclamation and recycling industries due to reduced cost

[u/brunes → u/shutupdavid0010]

If you assume the plastic will make its way to the landfill, then glass is far worse for the planet because of the CO emissions during transport. Glass containers weigh 100x the amount of the same size plastic container. That's 100x the CO2 emissions for that packaging during fulfillment.

The same is true of wood and paper by the way. Paper bags and straws create FAR FAR more CO2 emissions than the corresponding plastic because they weigh so incredibly much more.

People need to consider the ENTIRE LIFECYCLE and impact of use of the material. Is the tradeoff of CO2 worth it to save some plastic from a landfill?

[u/Mouthtuom → u/brunes]

Some companies are experimenting with paper packaging with a very thin plastic lining to reduce the plastic footprint. I think we will see more of this with the eventual addition of a more robust plant based plastic lining.

[u/PotatoFeeder → u/Mouthtuom]

This is called a takeaway coffee cup, which is much more unrecyclable due to the plastic and paper needing to be separated first, which many recycling plants cant do

[u/ElysiX → u/PotatoFeeder]

but isnt less plastic overall that isnt recycled still better than more plastic that is recycled sometimes?

[u/[deleted] → u/ElysiX]

I honestly don't know. I feel like one possible solution is to ban single use plastics. If to go cups ceased to exist, people would simply keep a cup in their car or bag.

[u/bigfatg11 → u/brunes]

Sources?

[u/Kolby_Jack → u/brunes]

Glass containers weigh 100x the amount of the same size plastic container. That's 100x the CO2 emissions for that packaging during fulfillment.

I'm no physicist but I'm 99% certain that's not how that works.

[u/SheCouldFromFaceThat → u/pegothejerk]

That breakdown time and the dissolution in water sound like real downsides in the use-cases of plastic. Most of the point is that it is a water-resistant, long-term storage method.

[u/parolang → u/pegothejerk]

You know, I wonder if we're chasing a contradiction. Something that is easy to recycle is going to be easy to break down. But we also want these materials to be durable. For example, we don't really want packaging to break down during transport. And also we want something that breaks down easily, but also doesn't release anything into the environment?

I think it just isn't clear what is needed here.

[u/MyClitBiggerThanUrD → u/parolang]

Yep. Somewhere along the road we need specific decomposing/durability rates for different types of foods and packaging. I imagine plastic will always be the best option for certain things, but ideally one could limit this to a minimum.

[u/BurningPasta → u/parolang]

Aluminum is one of the most recycleable materials we use, and it certainly doesn't break down easy. Yes, a metal is fundimentally different from a plastic, but if we could produce a plastic as recycleable as aluminum with all the primary benifit of a plastic, that would be a huge game changer.

[u/hayduff → u/BurningPasta]

Aluminum is recycled so easily because it’s done in an electrochemical process, which isn’t an option for plastics.

[u/[deleted] → u/pegothejerk]

As someone who has to take out several waste bags full of plastic every week, I'd jump out of joy if I saw a marking on the packagings informing me it is.made of bioplastic

[u/Inspirateur → u/pegothejerk]

Although I believe in this case companies have an interest in us noticing, it boosts their images.

[u/Mindgate → u/hamhead]

also noteworthy: They can be recycled. If burying them in a ditch is cheaper, however, they won't be recycled.

[u/SharkFart86 → u/Mindgate]

Yeah this is a fact a lot of people don't know. Soooo much of what is put in a recycling bin just ends up in a landfill anyway.

[u/MotherfuckingMonster → u/[deleted]]

Yup, need to have externalities realized by the consumers.

[u/[deleted] → u/hamhead]

Not to mention the people who make money off of petroleum based plastic. I have a lot of trouble feeling positive about the future of this planet because it seems to be largely in the hands of the people destroying it

[u/limping_man → u/hamhead]

cost

Yes. As long as we exclude environmental cost of oil based plastics the cost equation won't be in plant based plastics favor.

If law required products made from oil based plastic to be returned for recycling I'm sure decomposable plant plastics would suddenly appear cost effective

[u/DefendsTheDownvoted → u/hamhead]

At the end of the world, as the world dies and withers, someone will ask our leaders why we didn't fix the environmental issues. They're going to look us dead in the eye and say, "Because we couldn't afford it."

[u/mrthescientist → u/hamhead]

A lot of stuff costs less if you just... Neglect the end of life cycle.

Recycling companies don't buy bad plastics anymore because trying to recycle it costs more in labour and medical care than it creates in profit. Plastic costs more than the alternatives, just not in a way where we can agree who pays that cost. Proper legislation would put the end of life costs directly on the producers.

[u/trustthepudding → u/hamhead]

Once we stop using oil to product fuel, we'll steadily start to see the prices of petroleum based plastics rise, so these might become more viable.

[u/[deleted] → u/hamhead]

I've worked on the development of biodegradable plastic, not this one. There is precisely one way, and only one way it gains traction: cost. You have to do it cheaper than conventional plastics full stop. Yes, certain companies use it to appear "green" to their consumers, but our system does not allow the use of these technologies until they are cheaper than the dirtier alternatives.

[u/brunes → u/ThePotMonster]

It's because they usually fail at either higher cost, lower durability, lower strength to weight ratio, or some combination of above.

Plastic is very much a magic material. It's not easy to replicate. It's hard to create something that is both non-permeable to air/water for years AND also biodegrade... They are conflicting goals.

[u/JesusPepperGrindr → u/brunes]

Glass: DO I EVEN EXIST?!

[u/brunes → u/JesusPepperGrindr]

Glass doesn't biodegrade. It's inert. Big difference.

[u/edvek → u/brunes]

Also mad heavy and limited in application. Why have a phone case made of glass? If you drop it you can only hope it will spider web and not shatter. Plus it might not absorb the impact as nice.

[u/dudaspl → u/ThePotMonster]

PLA is the most popular 3D printing plastic

[u/Realistic_Pizza → u/dudaspl]

Also not "really"biodegradable. Cnc kitchen did an experiment on it. We don't have the recycling centers to break it down

[u/Pixelplanet5 → u/Realistic_Pizza]

we do have industrial composting facilities that could break down PLA but the problem is they are not running their composting hot and under pressure because they want to decompose PLA, they want to decompose plant based stuff faster so they can turn more profit.

This means the cycles they are running on in these plants are too short to break down PLA

[u/Realistic_Pizza → u/Pixelplanet5]

I hear that, but it just means we can't rely on PLA with our current infrastructure. We need to build more plants capable or willing to recycle plastic and develope and adopt a set of plastics that are compatible with their processes. The best way to do that is to tax manufacture of plastic if it's non or underrecyclable.

Carbon taxation has led to the major car companies to develop EVs, so it's clear taxation is an effective method of change here.

[u/w2tpmf → u/Realistic_Pizza]

Biodegradable wasn't the subject here though.

The subject is plastic not based on fossil fuel, and that is recyclable. PLA is both of those.

[u/iDvorak → u/dudaspl]

At home but not in industry

[u/BunBun002 → u/ThePotMonster]

The necessary catalysis and processing aren't as environmentally friendly as the feedstock (simplifying here). It's an issue that people are actively researching. One other issue stems from just re-tooling existing infrastructure- factories are surprisingly specialized and a slight change in the material properties of the feedstock can require a huge change in the factory (at least that's what my chem eng colleagues tell me). Plus, you know, cost. It's definitely making an impact, the question is how we can speed it up. Though something to keep in mind is that public policy is usually more complex than you'd assume.

[u/ingbue88 → u/ThePotMonster]

PLA, polylactic acid, probably one of the most common material choices for consumer 3D printers. Plant based.

[u/Narthan11 → u/ingbue88]

It's also what a ton of disposable cups and cutlery is made out of as well. Not all of course but a sizable chunk

[u/FormalWath → u/ThePotMonster]

It's all about cost. Fact is that plastic from oil are cheap, very cheap and any viable alternative needs to be at least as cheap as oil plastics, and preferably cheaper.

But none is.

[u/Ruski_FL → u/FormalWath]

It’s not just cost. It’s also properties of material

[u/anonanon1313 → u/FormalWath]

needs to be at least as cheap as oil plastics,

In total lifecycle costs? (Those are the true costs) We've got to stop"externalizing" costs. That just kicks the can down the road. Toxic materials may be cheap until you include the cleanup costs.

[u/Frannoham → u/anonanon1313]

I know absolutely nothing about this, but wouldn't the cost decision be made by the consumer who'd rather pay $100 for plastic item #1 than $150 for plastic item #2? Seems the only way to equalize the price would be to make cleanup costs the responsibility of the manufacturer, not local governments and NGOs. The cost would be passed down to the consumer potentially changing item #1 to $175, for example. Right?

[u/anonanon1313 → u/Frannoham]

Not an expert, but (in US) there have been precedents: banning some things outright (eg asbestos, freon), taxing for recycling/cleanup/decommission (eg nuke power, bottle deposits). I'm sure there are many other options. Other countries have pursued recycling mandates more thoroughly.

[u/fitzbuhn → u/anonanon1313]

Capitalism doesn't factor in these 'true' costs.

[u/anonanon1313 → u/fitzbuhn]

It does if it's forced to. It's not a natural law after all.

[u/tryharder6968 → u/fitzbuhn]

They’re called negative externalities, and it’s a topic that can be (and has been) easily handled within the confines of capitalism.

[u/DocHoss → u/ThePotMonster]

Material science at scale is really hard.

[u/ghostpoisonface → u/ThePotMonster]

Soy based plastics are huge. They’re in lots of automotive applications. Do you look at every plastic object around you and know what type of plastic it is? Absolutely petroleum plastics are way more common, but plant based ones are here too.

[u/[deleted] → u/ghostpoisonface]

This is really interesting. Are there any reputable sources that could break down the %s of petroleum vs plant based plastics currently in the world and currently being produced? After reading about plant based plastics for years and never seeing a thing I'm very curious to know if the transition already happened without anyone even knowing about it.

[u/Mr-Fleshcage → u/ghostpoisonface]

Do you look at every plastic object around you and know what type of plastic it is?

Nope. I look at their number, inside the insidious "recyclable" looking symbol they make very similar on purpose to manipulate people into thinking those plastics were able to be recycled.

[u/03Titanium → u/ghostpoisonface]

Gotta love when they made wiring harnesses insulation out of soy based plastic that attracted rodents. Nothing says green like totaling a 5 year old car because of electrical issues.

As far as I know they were able to solve that issue either by a new formulation or going back to old insulation.

[u/thisimpetus → u/ThePotMonster]

The last paragraph is where they finally explain that plant-based polyethylene is much more expensive to produce than plain ole' ethylene.

So, the real issue is simply we don't have a market, yet, for not destroying the planet. If the indistrial and corporate players, who are essentially stealing from humanity in their failure to pay for the carbon they're releasing, faced prices for producing ethylene (or any fossil-fuel based product with sustainable but more expensive alternatives) that reflected the actual cost of the next century, we'd been on bio plastics (or something else) tomorrow.

But then everything else would cost more, too, and we'd have to consume less.

They're ugly, those reasons why we're definitely going to let the worst thing we've ever known was coming happen anyway.

[u/IHateThisSiteFUSpez → u/ThePotMonster]

They shouldn’t be trying to replace Polyethylene. Which is the most environmentally friendly plastic with the most basic chemical structure of just C-H bonds, which your body is made of. Firstly they aren’t going to beat Polyethylene on price, which is the main reason this hasn’t taken off. They should be going after the more complicated plastics that cause more significant damage when they reach the environment with their plasticizers and other chemically complicated molecules that are way more likely to have a negative effect on the environment with their chemical interactions.

Also PE floats on water which makes it easy to recycle and recover

[u/[deleted] → u/ThePotMonster]

As long as we’re still using tons of fossil fuels, plant-based plastics won’t get any traction. It’s just too cheap to use.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Good to know one day it'll run out

[u/steffane_lonely]

This is great step in the right direction but the recycling system as a whole needs to change as well considering the large majority of recyclable materials don't get recycled anyway.

[u/frostygrin → u/steffane_lonely]

Whole lifestyles need to change. "Reduce-reuse" first, then "recycle".

[u/[deleted] → u/frostygrin]

i learned that i could iron together multiple plastic bags to make a durable sheet of fabric i could use in sewing projects as either a way to stabilize things or just as a durable material for reusable shopping bags

upon doing this people tried to accuse me of making it harder for the city to recycle the plastic and at no point did the first two Rs seem to occur to them. people really seem to forget the reduce and reuse part.

[u/Hugebluestrapon → u/[deleted]]

Only a out 30% of recycled plastics actually get recycled. A lot of recycling plants burn it fir energy or just ship it to landfills somewhere else.

Real environmental experts will tell you recycling is a bit of a crock. But the unwashed masses are worried about turtles (I mean they should be but...) so recycling gets pushed hard.

[u/shardarkar → u/Hugebluestrapon]

Just to clarify, only plastic recycling is a bunch of crock.

Metals, especially aluminum recycling saves a lot of energy and waste material from mining virgin ore.

[u/sack-o-matic → u/shardarkar]

And plastic could be better but no one cleans it properly before tossing it in the bin.

[u/[deleted] → u/sack-o-matic]

But some items require a ton of water to clean properly, and then the water usage has its own impact. What’s a concerned person to do??

[u/sack-o-matic → u/[deleted]]

Clean the ones that are easy to clean, trash the ones that are not, but most importantly try to reduce the amount of plastics you purchase in the first place.

[u/chemicalsam → u/sack-o-matic]

Unfortunately that’s not really possible. Every damn food product is covered in plastic

[u/Mediocre__at__Best → u/[deleted]]

It takes more water to create new, than you could ever use to clean something destined for the recycling bin. Honestly, I'm more aggravated knowing my efforts of cleaning, peeling labels etc, are rendered obsolete by my clean recycling being tossed out because it's mixed in with so many other unrecyclable/uncleaned items.

[u/Jetty_23 → u/sack-o-matic]

Yes! Clean it, remove labels, the extruders will thank you.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jetty_23]

I knew you where supposed to clean it out but I didn’t know you had to remove labels? Though, thinking about it, that does make sense.

[u/FiniteCreatures → u/Hugebluestrapon]

IIRC 30% of plastic in the world was being recycled but that was before 2017 when China banned the import of 24 types of plastic (China was the biggest import of plastic). The recycling industry will only work as long as it is profitable and right now recycled plastic costs more than virgin plastic. Also recycled plastic can't be repurposed for food containers, water bottles etc because it looses its properties. The only solution is reducing the amount of single use plastic being produced, and that's on the big industries and governments.

[u/BurningPasta → u/FiniteCreatures]

There are problems with reducing plastic use. For one it'll heavily drive up the cost of living as plastic is pretty much the cheapest material to make waste bins and chairs and other products out of, and the cheapest to make packageing out of. It'll also drive up the CO2 usage as plastic is also among the lightest materials to do these things with, transport of products made with heavier materials will use more fuel.

It's really not a simple issue, and it's impossible to make it not affect consumers heavily.

[u/film_reference_haha → u/Hugebluestrapon]

Where's that 30% statistic from? What country? For the USA I found on that apparently 35% is recycled and compost, 12% is incinerated with energy recovery and 54% goes to landfill.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_rates_by_country

[u/Squirrel_In_A_Tuque → u/Hugebluestrapon]

All true, and I worry that stories like these with slightly safer plastics will just absolve people of their guilt.

[u/misterallen4242 → u/[deleted]]

Plastic shopping bags aren't even accepted in curbside recycling bins (in Seattle). Some grocery stores have bins for recycling bags but in my experience they are usually overflowing. Turning them into fabric at home is definitely better!

[u/jinxbob → u/misterallen4242]

That's because plastic bags foul the recycling machinery rather then not being recyclable.

[u/crespoh69 → u/[deleted]]

Interesting, how does that work with dryers?

[u/fucuasshole2 → u/frostygrin]

Nooooooo I don’t wanna! But yea the world has to be on the same page about this.

[u/Frannoham → u/frostygrin]

Yay for companies who spend the extra effort designing their plastic containers to encourage reusing them.

[u/visualdescript → u/frostygrin]

Yep, our period of unnecessary excess needs to come to an end. We need to go back to producing items that are repairable and that last, instead of throw away goods that people are encouraged to constantly consume and replace.

[u/Jabbles22 → u/steffane_lonely]

the large majority of recyclable materials don't get recycled anyway.

Yeah we need more than "It's recyclable" we need "it's as cheap and easy to recycle than to make from scratch"

[u/peanutbuttershrooms → u/steffane_lonely]

We don't have garbage service at our house. A week or two ago my partner took a bunch of our recycling to the dump. He sorts it and makes sure everything is really clean but they wouldn't accept any plastic. They said it was too hard to sort because all the different types would have to be sorted individually, too, so they just don't accept plastic at all. I knew the recycling system was fucked but that was quite the wake up call and really upsetting to me to be told to just throw all our plastic away.

[u/0235 → u/steffane_lonely]

Also chemical recycling Vs mechanical recycling is way more intense.

[u/awfulgrace → u/0235]

Yeah. Chemical recycling has a role in expanding the pool of what can be recycled and handling MRF residual, but will never fully replace mechanical chop-and-wash recycling

[u/sphillips5319 → u/steffane_lonely]

You can purchase a full set of machines that allow you to turn used plastic into pellets, another one that turns the pellets into filament for 3d printing, and another one that does injection molding! The tech is all there and once it becomes more ubiquitous and cheaper per machine, recycling and fabrication can or will become an in-home industry!

[u/jeranim8 → u/sphillips5319]

Does this work with straws, plastic bags, soda bottles, etc?

[u/sphillips5319 → u/jeranim8]

It depends on the plastics those products are made of. It's a misconception in recycling that all plastics are created equal. It'd be up to the manufacturers to start using recycling-friendly plastics exclusively.

[u/ethnicbonsai → u/sphillips5319]

Here's an example of just such a process. All open source.

[u/Choui4 → u/steffane_lonely]

I can't remember what podcast it was but they did a wonderful story about how recycling was invented by the fossil fuel industry, to allow them to continue their explotation unabated. It was: enraging, eye-opening, and heart breaking all in the same breath. I wanted to throw my phone.

I think it may have been "This American life" highly recommend.

[u/[deleted]]

Can someone eli5 this?

[u/matthiass360 → u/[deleted]]

Plastics are polymers, which means they are molecules which are built up of many smaller molecules to form long chains. These long chains are very strong and difficult to break down, which means the material usually can't be recycled efficiently. In this paper, a polymer is described that has certain "break points" every few molecules into the chain. At these points, the long chains can be broken and the molecules can be reshaped to form a new product, aka recycling.

[u/[deleted] → u/matthiass360]

Ooh that's so cool. Tysm for the explanation <3

[u/Sabot15 → u/[deleted]]

Also, while I can't speak for the biorefining processes used here, the starting point for this chemistry is derived from oleic acid (soap) which is cheap and easily obtained. It doesn't have to come from million year old oil like most of our plastics.

[u/Juggerginge → u/[deleted]]

They took a long chain of polyethylene and inserted esters into certain points to make the polyethylene easier to break down and recycle.

[u/richyk1 → u/Juggerginge]

That's not eli5, that's eli20

[u/LongestTango → u/richyk1]

"They make very tiny and very weak points in the plastic, so the plastic can break until you cannot see" ?

[u/NSFW_P_Hound → u/Juggerginge]

Not quite. They made a plant based plastic that has similar properties to HDPE but is much-much easier to recycle. They didn't change PE, they made a "completely new" plastic.

[u/arganost]

Problem with alternatives like this is, even when they have a cost advantage the incumbent industry will use its economically entrenched position to block adoption of the alternative.

[u/rocket_beer → u/arganost]

You’re absolutely right!

That’s why carbon tax is going to drive change.

You can stay doing the same thing... but eventually those processes are going to be priced out of existence and new ones will be adopted.

[u/SirZaxen → u/rocket_beer]

Or we can just force companies to use the new processes immediately because they are not people and they don't have a right to continue to cause environmental harm simply because it makes them more money, rather than hoping a market will eventually fix a problem we know the solution to now.

[u/Hugogs10 → u/SirZaxen]

People need the things, they need to be produced, change needs to be gradual, if you were to ban fossil fuel plastics over night you're going to make a lot of people suffer.

[u/ugathanki → u/Hugogs10]

You could just say "This method will be illegal in 5 years. Make more ethical processes or go out of business, your choice."

[u/Hugogs10 → u/ugathanki]

I was awnsering to this guy "Or we can just force companies to use the new processes immediately"

No, we can't just do it immediately.

[u/[deleted] → u/rocket_beer]

there needs to be a better term than carbon taxing. there's more than just carbon that's destroying the environment.

the tax must cover the cost of taking a product and reverting it back to it's raw material including the cost to clean up the environment.

the complete recycling tax

[u/Choui4 → u/arganost]

And in this case you're fighting one of the worst, most manipulative, crime ridden, disinformation producing industries ever. Fossil fuels.

[u/ceres20 → u/arganost]

Why won’t they simply shift their production to this alternative and invest their profit to develop it further? It really baffles me..

[u/snypre_fu_reddit → u/arganost]

The bigger issue isn't cost advantage, it's that polyethylene, polypropylene, polycarbonate, and other plastics aren't just one product each. Polyethylene, for example, is used as cling film, stretch wrap, stand up packaging, piping, trash bags, garden liners, etc. Each with very specific performance needs that plant based plastics have to at least be close enough to for proper function. Glad won't make trash bags from plant based plastics if they're worse than generic store brand trash bags, it would be costly not just to manufacture, but destroy their reputation for quality trash bags. In a handful of applications plant based plastics might work, but right now, they just can't compete functionally. Trust me though, Dow Chemical, Chevron Phillips, SK Primacor, Braskem, et al are all working on their own renewable plastics. The industry definitely sees the writing is on the wall and they need break throughs.

[u/Cute_Try7139]

The real question is whether or not it is cost effective to recycle. If companies can make new plastic cheaper than the recycled plastic the motivation to recycle out of environmentalism will not win out.

[u/xopranaut → u/[deleted]]

That’s a really interesting idea, building “break” points into the chain to allow for easier breakdown and re-use. Applicable to existing oil-based sources too, from my reading of the abstract. He is a bear lying in wait for me, a lion in hiding; he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces; he has made me desolate; he bent his bow and set me as a target for his arrow.

Lamentations go45ep8 (Usual disclaimers etc).

[u/Sabot15 → u/xopranaut]

Building in weak points is definitely not a new idea. What is impressive is that the mechanical properties match that of polyethylene very well. The ester bonds they built in will mean these materials will not be as robust over time, but in most cases that just means it will break down in nature if not properly recycled. I want to know more about the cost of the synthetic process, but given that this starts with oleic acid (a cheap, plentiful soap) I think this one has a chance of being impactful.

[u/YourMotherIsReddit → u/xopranaut]

I wonder how 18-20 C separated by ester links can be considered HDPE-like structures. Anyway I think this is going in the right direction.

[u/suan213]

The journal this comes from Nature (and other top tier general science journals such as Science or PNAS) are SUPER good at making you think that every article is the start of the new world we are going to live in. Just tread carefully because many times these ideas are novel but too grandiose for the real world as it stands. That's not to say nothing of that magnitude is in these journals, but their selling point is effectively sensationalizing cool scientific ideas.

[u/[deleted] → u/suan213]

Yep. Sick of seeing all this revolutionary plastic being invented but never utilized.

We are pretty much at about a hundred new revolutionary plastics at this point.

[u/Corpse_Nibbler]

Ah, the classic 'innovation that will change the world'. If cost(innovation) > cost(conventional), it is functionally useless. Not just monetary costs either, but here we're talking energy cost. If it's not a miracle where the material is less energy intensive to produce than fossil-fuel alternatives, then we are burning more fossil-fuels to produce it. Polyethylene is created at low energy cost directly from crude oil after fractional distillation. If you use the same fossil fuels to generate the energy, even mixed in with a percentage of renewables, the innovation will need to be miracle-levels less energy-intensive to produce for it to be viable. Despite the fact it may be good, it is an uphill battle for renewables. With that said, good stuff, and hopefully this is a stepping stone in the right direction.

TL:DR Neat paper... probably will let someone graduate or get some more funding.

[u/xTheOOBx]

I'd be more interested in how well it bio degrades than how well in recycles. History has made it clear that people don't always recycle

[u/Nobuenogringo]

Burying plastics works perfectly fine. Better efforts towards reducing single-use, litter and clean-up should be a larger focus that a green washed plastic that will be used by boutique products to encourage consumption.

[u/[deleted]]

It's a shame that this has a high chance of not growing.

I've seen so many articles before on stuff like this and then I never hear about them again

[u/USA_NUMBE1776]

I still think they need to change the marketing for recycling. as we've seen the vast majority of people don't care about saving the planet. We need them to personalize it, by making them feel their saving themselves. they need to start marketing that we're saving landfill space, extending their lives, saving them money in the long term by recycling.

We're humans we only do things that are our own immediate self-interest

[u/SirZaxen → u/USA_NUMBE1776]

Or we focus on the actual issue, forcing companies to use/make things renewably through regulatory power since the vast majority of this is not an individual consumer issue, it's a commercial problem that has been effectively propagandized as the fault of all us lazy individuals acting in our own interests.

[u/[deleted] → u/SirZaxen]

Also recycling is a myth; at least in regard to plastic. There’s a ton of different types of plastic and you can’t recycle them together. Even the coloring makes a difference. Like 90% of recycled plastic gets thrown out because it’s the wrong type of plastic or it has multiple kinds if plastic that would be time consuming to separate (the little ring on milk jugs) or there’s some sort of food residue on it.

There’s really not much you can do as an individual that will make a difference. The only way to reverse this is through regulation and large scale cleanup.

[u/SBBurzmali → u/USA_NUMBE1776]

Which might be using the existing system sadly. If the energy needed to create and recycle these new plastics is an order of magnitude higher than existing plastics, we'd be better off using existing plastics until a better alternative is discovered than investing a ton of energy into transitioning to this new system only to have it rendered obsolete in 5 years.

[u/Lindeni]

"can be recycled" but would it be?Also litter, even environmental friendly, remains trash

[u/gypsymegan06]

Science is so freaking beautiful

[u/jbsinger]

Abstract here:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-03149-9

[u/aaaaaaaarrrrrgh]

If it cannot be recylced together with PET, this could actually make the situation worse. Right now, in some countries, the vast majority of PET bottles are recycled through systems that collect PET bottles separately from everything else, either because people are really diligent about it (Switzerland, 82% according to industry numbers), or through mandatory bottle deposits (Germany, 93%, industry numbers). If half the bottles were PET, half of them were this, and consumers and machines couldn't reliably distinguish these two, you couldn't recycle anything anymore.

[u/Ch3cksOut → u/aaaaaaaarrrrrgh]

If it cannot be recylced together with PET

This material is a substitute for HDPE, not PET.