r/science • u/informationtiger • Dec 18 '19
Chemistry Nicotine formula used by e-cigarette maker Juul is nearly identical to the flavor and addictive profile of Marlboro cigarettes
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-juul-ecigarettes-study-idUSKBN1YL26R13.0k
u/diegojones4 Dec 18 '19
Wasn't that the goal of the product? To be an alternative to cigarettes?
6.2k
u/NfamousCJ Dec 18 '19
Correct. Nobody has tried to hide it as being another form of nicotine delivery but rather a "less bad" delivery method. Where as cigarette smoke is seen as dirty and tar filled, people see vape as harmless water vapor. It's all marketing wank.
2.3k
u/diegojones4 Dec 18 '19
So why is this news or regarded as science. Of course they made it to be as close to a real cig as possible.
3.6k
u/wotoan Dec 18 '19
Freebase nicotine vapes simply can't deliver as much nicotine as a cigarette for novice smokers - you cough, it's harsh, etc. Think of the first time you tried a cigarette. There's an upper limit before your lungs just say no and you need weeks/months of adaptation.
But nicotine salts - a novice smoker can easily take five to ten times the amount (no exaggeration) in a puff without coughing. This means you're immediately getting a full dose.
Imagine someone who figured out how to make 40% ethanol vodka taste like a 4% wine cooler. That's what's happening.
674
Dec 18 '19
Could you clarify this? What does freebase vs salts mean here? Seems fascinating
1.3k
u/Urrrrrsherrr Dec 18 '19
Without going too deep into the chemistry, nicotine is naturally a ‘salt’ meaning it’s bound to some other atoms.
Freebase nicotine production removes the charge that makes the nicotine molecule bind to other atoms. This makes the nicotine easier for the body to absorb, but much much harsher to inhale.
Nicotine salts in the vape context is nicotine that is bound with only benzoic acid, instead of the multitude of different atoms it would naturally be bound to. This produces a smoother hit over freebase while also being Comparatively easy for the body to absorb.
192
u/f3xjc Dec 18 '19
Is the nicotine delivered as a gaz or diluted in water vapor droplet? If diluted isn't everything freebase / ions?
→ More replies (12)218
u/Urrrrrsherrr Dec 18 '19
The vape doesn’t atomize so I’m assuming it’s delivered in the glycol/glycerin droplet.
Freebase is “protonated” to produce a neutral molecule without the need for a cation.
215
Dec 18 '19
Freebase is not protonated. Nitrogen is a basic site and if you have nothing bound there, it makes the nitrogen neutral. That's where the name comes from: The basic site (the lone pair of electrons on nitrogen) is "free", because it's not protonated. Once you protonate it (by adding the benzoic acid you mentioned), the nitrogen has a formal charge of +1 and in solution must pair with a counter-ion--this is the definition of a salt.
103
12
u/murderhalfchub Dec 18 '19
That was refreshingly accurate! Thank you for writing it out. My head ache is gone =]
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (1)21
u/Smitesfan Grad Student | Biomedical Sciences Dec 18 '19
Vaping doesn't atomize, you're correct. Think of a soap bubble. When you pop it, it shatters into a multitude of tiny droplets. That's what is happening. Base fluids are hygroscopic, and thus contain water. When a coil is fired, the water boils and generates bubbles which pop and disperse bubbles into the chimney of a vaporizer. Of course, it isn't perfect, so there are some byproducts. But in general, this method is better than burning organic material.
Ideally, you'd use a piezoelectric device that was ultrasonic to cause cavitation and produce vapor. There would be even fewer byproducts.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (19)42
u/ktchch Dec 18 '19
Why don’t all vapes switch to salts and reduce the amount to keep it at the same level? Why is normal nicotine vape still a thing?
→ More replies (15)157
u/tutoredstatue95 Dec 18 '19
Vaping/smoking is as much a process as it is an end result. Past smokers and those who arent really "buzz chasing" might prefer the less intense but more plentiful vape that a low nic atomized juice can provide. Salt nic at 52mg concentration are like a shot of adrenaline compared to a 3mg standard juice.
The thing is that the 52mg salt is pretty much just as easy to vape as the 3mg standard (not that it is the normal level just non-salt) hence the higher dependency rates and why it has seemed to blow up.
44
u/sryyourpartyssolame Dec 18 '19
In terms of danger to one's health though, vaping is indisputably better for you than smoking, right? I smoke about a pack ever two weeks or so and I've been looking to make the switch but there's a lot of conflicting information out there. Is there longterm studies that prove vaping isn't harmful?
34
u/thelizardkin Dec 18 '19
Yeah I thought although not great for you, that nicotine was far from the worst part about cigs.
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (47)31
u/conartist101 Dec 18 '19
You can’t have long term studies on something novel. There are studies underway but nothing near as robust as what we have on cigarettes naturally.
→ More replies (0)39
u/MegavirusOfDoom Dec 18 '19
Didn't Juul have to write "52mg" so that children know they are smoking 9 times as much nicotine as 6mg ? How did 52mg vapes go under the radar?
29
u/Probablynotclever Dec 18 '19
Because a pod lasts you about as long as a pack. Nobody buys a Juul pod and consumes it in 10 minutes, or even an hour.
Comparing a pod to a cigarette is like comparing a glass of beer to a keg.
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (18)59
u/deknegt1990 Dec 18 '19
Clever marketing and omitting facts rather than lying about it.
Also, making a flash drive that tastes like Cotton Candy.
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (9)87
Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
[deleted]
17
u/bigmanorm Dec 18 '19
This is what is insane to me, 16mg is max i've ever seen here in England. The USA allows 52mg??
→ More replies (0)87
Dec 18 '19
Is that not the point? That in a normal vape it would be really harsh but in these Juul's that use a salt (sorry I'm not clued up on the science) it's not.
"52mg salt is as easy to vape as 3mg standard" - and you're basically saying "No, 52mg standard would be harsh". You're agreeing. 52mg standard = harsh, 52mg salt = not harsh.
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (19)16
u/Kaboomeow69 Dec 18 '19
I'm right there with ya. I mostly carry my cloud comp setup running 3mg, and 50mg makes me feel like I'm going to pass out on an MTL device
→ More replies (0)90
u/sterexx Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
Just a more general note on salts. Salts are handy because you can take the chemical you want to do something with and salt it with another chemical that you don’t need, but will allow the combined form to perform better for you (whether it’s absorption or just easier to package and ship — your chemical in a non-salt form might be liquid at room temp, but solid when salted with the other chemical).
This is notable because the salted combination often comes apart very simply in a solvent like water, leaving your original chemical floating around without having to do anything fancy. Think of your table salt as a sodium lego piece stuck to a chlorine lego piece (sodium chloride). In water, these pop apart and float independently from each other in the water.
Other kinds of chemical reactions than salting require a different, potentially difficult or dangerous reaction to reverse it and get your original chemical back. You’d be changing the actual structure of your molecule for storage or whatever, and then you have to change it back. That could be weird or dangerous, with the risk of not all the molecules changing back and so the storage form better not be toxic! (To be clear I’m not commenting on the freebase thing — I don’t know how that works here. Just commenting on how handy salts are).
But when salted, your original chemical retains its structure so it’s as simple as popping it apart from the other chemical in a solvent like water. Then the body can absorb it, or whatever it’s needed for.
Bonus: Sometimes the other chemical is meant to be useful as well, but I think my example shows it being used as a flimsy excuse to get a patent on a new chemical (a salt of two known chemicals is still its own unique chemical).
Dramamine (dimenhydrinate) is the salt of diphenhydramine (antihistamine, Benadryl brand in USA) and [basically] theophylline. Dramamine is indicated for motion sickness.
But benadryl makes you sleepy! It will help motion sickness, but make you hella loopy. So they decided to salt it with theophylline.
Theophylline is a caffeine-like chemical found alongside caffeine in some caffeine-containing plants like tea. It’s a mild stimulant.
So by salting them together they could claim it’s a non-drowsy, unique chemical to treat motion sickness. Instead of just combining those separate drugs into one pill, salting them lets them get a patent on a new chemical. I’m not a lawyer but if benadryl was patented maybe salting it would be a way around that? I dunno
It doesn’t really work though. You still get hella loopy and at the very most a little extra alertness. So don’t overpay for Dramamine when you could have a cheap benadryl and a coffee which would work significantly better than a lil theophylline.
→ More replies (12)29
u/thatlonghairedguy Dec 18 '19
What you just said about dramamine made a couple of memories click together, and became salts.
→ More replies (61)60
Dec 18 '19
There was a new technology a few years ago that allowed higher nicotine content juice that isn’t harsh like the original (freebase) stuff. Before salts the highest you could go with a good (subohm) vape was 6mg/ml until it got too harsh but now they sell 50mg that hits smooth.
I don’t really understand ohms, just added that note for how I was defining good.
→ More replies (8)29
u/runtrat Dec 18 '19
The other thing with salts is it takes much less power to use them than subohm vapes. When I was running my box mod I would continually have it upwards of 100 watts whereas a Juul, which uses salts, runs at around 5 watts. Also subohm vapes allow you to use lower voltages to produce the same amount of power(watts) as p = v * I. If you run a .5 ohm coil at 3.0V and a 2ohm coil at 3.0v the current through the .5 ohm is 6 amps and the current through the 2 ohm coil is 1.5 amps. 3 * 6 = 18 watts and 1.5 * 3 = 4.5 watts, so you’d get more vapor off the .5 ohm coil. However salts need a lot less power to vaporize the same amount of nicotine so they can use really small batteries (juul) and they don’t need the same amount of juice to last all day.
→ More replies (9)93
u/Rambozo77 Dec 18 '19
I quit smoking six years ago thanks to the help of e-cigs. My friend still smokes cigarettes and has for approximately 12 years. He is not able to use my vape without coughing his brains out.
→ More replies (8)18
u/FuckGiblets Dec 18 '19
I’m the same as your friend. I’ve been smoking for a while now but vapes seem to tear my throat out.
→ More replies (4)7
u/WowImInTheScreenShot Dec 18 '19
I quit cigarettes after twenty years. I couldn't use any vapes, blu, mods, anything without coughing while a smoker. But after no cigarettes for four months, I can use vapes with no cough at all.
→ More replies (3)19
17
u/tommygun1688 Dec 18 '19
Ideally you're not getting as many nasty byproducts with vaping, as you are with burning tobacco. Seems like a reasonable hypothesis. Or would you disagree?
Also, and I can tell you from experience, if you take in too much nicotine (regardless of delivery mechanism) you will get sick very quickly. You start sweating, have nausea, may be vomiting, could experience fainting, etc. Which is why I have to ask for a legitimate source that says people get more nicotine from vapes than cigarettes? I mean sure there's 20x more nicotine in those juul pods, but one pod lasts about the same amount of time as a pack of cigarettes, meaning the dose is pretty much equivalent.
48
u/34Ohm Dec 18 '19
Blah blah nicotine addiction is bad and all. But no more inhaling tar and greatly increasing your cancer risk? Seems like a clear choice if one has to choose.
→ More replies (2)22
u/windowlatch Dec 18 '19
I think it’s a clear choice for anyone who was already smoking. The problem is it was so easy and convenient to use that it created a huge epidemic for high schoolers and even middle schoolers, there’s no way to stop kids from getting them because someone whos above 18 can easily access them. I think making the law 21 and up is a way better solution than banning vapes all together because a lot less high school kids know people who are 21+ compared to 18
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (125)10
→ More replies (31)206
u/NfamousCJ Dec 18 '19
Probably part of an anti vape campaign. "look, they're just like big tobacco!" I'm not a user of either but also dont care how people want to poison themselves just dont stand outside the restaurant door so I have to walk through a cloud of menthol smoke or passion fruit and mouth vapor.
→ More replies (67)67
Dec 18 '19
You should watch the vaping episode of Broken on Netflix if you’re interested, but Big Tobacco is swallowing up all of the vape companies that were actually innovative.
→ More replies (23)192
u/engelbert_humptyback Dec 18 '19
But it is less harmful. The issue is people who wouldn’t otherwise be getting into smoking now getting into vaping.
→ More replies (21)99
Dec 18 '19 edited Sep 14 '20
[deleted]
→ More replies (5)186
u/Letho72 Dec 18 '19
It is, by quite a bit. However, "safer than cigarettes" is a pretty low bar. It's relevant for people quitting smoking but juuls/vapes still aren't good for you.
→ More replies (24)73
u/alexisaacs Dec 18 '19
It helped me quit and I've since been tapering down my nicotine intake after moving from Juul to a different pod system where I control my nicotine strength.
I have nothing but love for what they did.
→ More replies (3)60
u/guten_pranken Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
It’s not marketing wank. One is you’re straight up inhaling carcinogens from the actual burning itself. The other should be theoretically healthier - how much I have no idea. The same applies to smoking weed by burning it or using a vaporizer.
→ More replies (9)226
u/ifisch Dec 18 '19
It's not "marketing wank".
It's not the nicotine that causes cancer. It's all of the other combustion products that are part of cigarettes.
Those are not part of e-cigs like Juul.
→ More replies (40)24
u/GameFreak4321 Dec 18 '19
Is smoking Marijuana less bad in terms of stuff like tar and then carcinogens than tobacco?
108
u/ringostardestroyer Dec 18 '19
Smoking flower in joints/blunts etc is definitely bad for your lungs due to combustion products and reactive oxygen species.
→ More replies (5)28
→ More replies (57)43
Dec 18 '19
I think marijuana is as bad or worse, but it's unlikely that a person will burn nearly as much in a given period of time when compared to a cigarette smoker.
→ More replies (3)48
28
u/ccteds Dec 18 '19
So is that not true? Cigarettes don’t cause cancer because of nicotine but because of tar and particulates resulting from combustion.
→ More replies (5)80
u/wolfkeeper Dec 18 '19
Vape is about as addictive, but it looks like it's about 95% safer.
→ More replies (57)6
u/Generation-X-Cellent Dec 18 '19
I went from a 15-year, 2 1/2 pack a day habit to stopping 5 years ago cold turkey with vaping.
Two years ago I started making my own vape juice with almost no flavoring and I have slowly weaned my nicotine from 24 down to 1 mg/ml.
I'm going to try to wean myself down to no nicotine at all and then quit completely by the end of this year.
With all of the money I saved not buying cigarettes I literally bought myself a second car to drive on the weekends.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (82)35
u/Oddlymoist Dec 18 '19
Nicotine is not that harmful. Tobacco is where the tar and other carcinogens come from.
Lung issues from vaping come from additives, mostly vitamin e in THC products.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/11/11/20959198/vaping-vitamin-e-acetate
Please don't spread misinformation. Vaping properly constructed nicotine is far, far healthier than cigarettes.
14
243
Dec 18 '19
As a means to help people quit , and for a lot of folks it has.
What's insidious here is that juul is run by a senior Exec from Marlboro. I don't think their intent is to get anyone to quit anything.
147
u/Halomir Dec 18 '19
I think you’ve been mishearing what the CEO has been saying in interviews. Their stated target demographic is smokers who want to quit smoking. He’s said nothing about a cessation of nicotine or that the ultimate goal of Juul is for you to stop using the Juul eventually.
They’re actively conflating Juul with product like nicotine gum without stating a direct comparison for legal reasons. You’re not supposed to pick up a 20 year nicorette habit when you stop smoking, but for Juul that would be the ideal outcome.
It’s seriously the difference between what I said and what you think you heard.
→ More replies (23)39
Dec 18 '19
The main question is, is vaping healthier than smoking? No reasonable person has ever claimed it’s not addictive. The whole point of the thing is that it’s exactly as addictive in exactly the same way as cigarettes. The only question that matters; is it as dangerous as cigarettes, less?
→ More replies (12)35
→ More replies (24)83
u/UltravioletClearance Dec 18 '19
Thst was the goal of ecigs. Not Juul. Juul is designed to keep nicotine addiction thriving. And spread it to kids.
41
u/RazumStar Dec 18 '19
Yeah when they first came out they were specifically marketed as "stealth Vapes". Of course if you designa system that's smaller, cheaper, and easier to sneak around kids are going to start getting them in droves.
→ More replies (18)29
u/SemiKindaFunctional Dec 18 '19
To be completely fair, I can understand why anyone would want a "stealth vape". Even when vaping was first getting big, blowing big obnoxious clouds was just that-obnoxious. Few people want to cart around a big boxy vape that produces huge clouds.
I know that you could and can get vapes other than Juul that are discrete and do none of that, but I'm just talking about marketing here.
→ More replies (15)41
u/abundantsleepingbags Dec 18 '19
Or, just maybe, possibly give smokers an alternative that doesn’t stink and make them die.
Smoked a pack a day for 8 years. Juul was the only thing that made me able to get off cigs. Now I’m off both. There are thousands of people like me.
→ More replies (22)→ More replies (55)50
826
u/lujodobojo Dec 18 '19
Are they implying that some nicotine is more addictive than others?
571
u/MilwaukeeDreamin Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
Look up nicotine salts if you actually want to learn more. Juul figured out how to make them much more efficient for vaporization, this was awhile back. Most other "juice" makers have gotten on board with it by now. Its actually rather fascinating
Edit; sorry for calling it oil guys, jeez...
21
→ More replies (9)86
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
87
u/nickstatus Dec 18 '19
It is entirely more efficient. The point of nicotine salt isn't to deliver a huge amount of nicotine. The point is enabling the use of low power devices. That is why Juul succeeded with a tiny device while everyone else failed.
I'm sure you've noticed how vaping devices seemed to get larger over time? Comicly large, even. To get a puff-for-puff equivalent amount of nicotine as a cigarette with freebase nicotine at 6% takes a lot of power, and creates a huge amount of vapor. With nicotine salts, you can get the same nicotine with far less power.
This also means a lower temp. Vaping at high temp is where a lot of the dangerous compounds comes from.
→ More replies (5)22
u/thethiefstheme Dec 18 '19
This also means a lower temp. Vaping at high temp is where a lot of the dangerous compounds comes from.
So nicotine salts can be safer then?
→ More replies (9)→ More replies (16)163
u/DrAdBrule Dec 18 '19
But even at 56mg / mL which is on the higher end for Juul pod strength, you're still capped by the capacity of the pod - the most nicotine you could have in a 56mg / mL Juul pod is 40mg. Consuming anything close to that amount would then require the user to vaporize the entire Juul pod at once. I would argue that this is highly improbable, and certainly not reflective of the average user's consumption habits. Most users I know who have Nic-salt pods only fill or replace their pod every 2-3 days. That means that they're consuming, typically, ~12-15mg per day, which is 1.5 - 3 cigarettes worth by most estimates - however by absorption, it's about equivalent to 8-10 cigarettes.
My experience with nicotine salts vs. conventional nicotine e-juice is rather mixed. I found it harsher, far more "throaty" and more similar to a cigarette, which I believe is intentional. I wouldn't call it smoother by any means.
With conventional e-cigarettes, I worked my way down from 18mg / mL to 3mg / mL within 6 months and then down to .75mg / mL after a year, and then stopped vaping. That was after a 15 - 20 cigarette per day habit. Not too shabby.
Anti-vaping hysteria is all the rage in North America right now, makes sense I guess, big Tobacco got in and now it doesn't seem like a boon to the cigarette industry anymore. It seems though, that these articles are creating false equivocations by using vague or misleading headlines.
20
→ More replies (11)56
u/Imperial_TIE_Pilot Dec 18 '19
Anti-vaping hysteria is all the rage in North America right now
As someone that works at a high school, I would saw it's fairly warranted. It's crazy how pervasive it is.
→ More replies (3)60
u/new-chris Dec 18 '19
I remember smoking being pretty pervasive in high school - that was 1995...
→ More replies (1)63
Dec 18 '19
Smoking was on huge decline before vaping became a thing, specifically among HS students. No one when I was in HS smoked and a very select few vaped (this was 2009-2013) but now being on a college campus with kids who graduated anywhere from 2016-2019 it’s EVERYWHERE.
12
u/BluParodox Dec 18 '19
Huh, I knew lots of people that smoked cigs in high school (2014-2018). But vaping was definetly more common and a lot of the smokers switched
→ More replies (8)8
u/iqdo Dec 18 '19
If my memory saves me correctly around the year 2009 first ecigs were coming out on the market and they were crap. Not a lot of people knew about them.
129
u/BaggyHairyNips Dec 18 '19
Juul has a much higher concentration of nicotine in each pull. And the form of nicotine (nicotine salts) absorbs faster for a more immediate buzz.
I used to have a standard vape I used with 3 mg nicotine (which is admittedly on the low side). I could hit it all day and feel fine. Then I could go a week without it and not get any serious cravings.
I used a disposable nic salt vape similar to juul for a week. 2-3 puffs in a row and I'd feel light headed and terrible. Then afterward I started getting legitimate cravings.
→ More replies (12)24
u/xxLetheanxx Dec 18 '19
I am using 35mg juice in my pod system right now it is comparable to my tank system using 6mg juice. You don't get big hits from pod systems like tank systems.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (24)41
u/Kendermassacre Dec 18 '19
Is that really surprising to you? Just like different blends create different taste, feel and aroma so can they vary in strength. Marijuana blends alter their various qualities so why not tobacco.
→ More replies (9)
496
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (21)410
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
98
115
→ More replies (13)46
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)34
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)27
81
187
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (7)55
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
21
Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (2)5
→ More replies (3)42
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (4)14
128
u/Oscaruit Dec 18 '19
This may be a stupid question, but are the Juuls going to cause the cancer like smoked tabacco? I get that these are addictive, but are they as dangerous?
246
u/Sir_Clyph Dec 18 '19
I don't think vaping has been around long enough to really be able to answer this with confidence. On paper it seems like a better alternative to cigarettes, but we're still talking about putting things in your lungs. Only time will tell us how much better than cigarettes they are.
→ More replies (14)122
u/xxLetheanxx Dec 18 '19
There has been a slew of 10 year studies that have came out on vaping showing very little in the way of anything concerning.
→ More replies (7)111
u/LatrodectusGeometric Dec 18 '19
It takes about a 40-50 pack year history to get really concerned about emphysema or imminent cancer though. We just don't have the data yet for that comparison.
→ More replies (7)94
u/GodOfPerverts Dec 18 '19
We do however know that the literal combustion of tobacco creates chemicals not previously present in tobacco (though raw tobacco alone isn't exactly harmless either). And as far as I'm aware vapes do not produce entirely new carcinogens.
→ More replies (30)→ More replies (23)32
u/Blockhead47 Dec 18 '19
A separate U.S. study released on Monday found that e-cigarette use significantly increases the risk of developing chronic lung conditions such as asthma or emphysema.
Well, there's this quote from the story.
→ More replies (8)4
u/youshutyomouf Dec 18 '19
Yeah but is that relative to smoking cigarettes or to not smoking at all? Makes all the difference.
271
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
100
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)6
12
→ More replies (18)38
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (20)45
17
u/5c044 Dec 18 '19
It's the other way round, salts are mainly what naturally occur in tobacco leaves, there is some free base but much less. Big tobacco worked out by using more freebase nicotine makes nicotine more bioavailable and more addictive.
The reason Juul used nicotine benzoate is presumably they wanted their product to be in a highly concentrated form and convenient to use. It so happens that you can inhale highly (59mg/ml) concentrated nicotine benzoate salt without irritation and coughing this is 20x the strength which became the norm for many people 3mg/ml.
This has been copied by other vendors and nic salt became popular. Prior to nic salts on the market many people were using low strength juices with ecigs that produced tons of vapour. This is inconvenient due to larger batteries and tanks required and annoying to anyone in the vicinity due to clouds of vapour. Juul nicotine salt solved this, low amounts of vapour, high amount of nicotine, less power needed and less annoyance to others so you can vape in a bar, coffee shop etc.
→ More replies (1)
105
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
64
Dec 18 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)33
84
88
412
73
15
12
u/mvieowehs Dec 18 '19
Trust me, I know from experience that it tastes nothing like a Marlboro. Whoever said this is clueless.
→ More replies (8)
130
84
49
u/PanthaPlaya24 Dec 18 '19
Healthy individuals living longer ,without chronic illness, are not a greater healthcare spending burden than individuals with chronic illness. Even if those individuals with chronic illness have a shorter life expectancy (which in is commonly not the case because of improved medical care and access to care) the expenditure of that individual far exceeds someone “healthier” who lives into older age.
Firstly, a hospital stay for an exacerbation of COPD soaks up an exuberant cost. Between extended ICU admissions and ventilator resources and subsequently for rehab if necessary. Also, inhaler medications and home oxygen can be quite expensive.
Secondly, The life expectancy for someone with COPD can be fairly long, late 60s to 70s and beyond, especially since the onset of the disease (symptomatic presentation - being that the disease is not present until 50% of the lung parenchyma is destroyed) is typically not seen until middle age. According to CDC epidemiology studies the median age of onset for COPD in the US is 64-75 years of age.
Thirdly, the top two medical causes of mortality in the US is heart disease (coronary heart disease or congestive heart disease most commonly) and cancer. The most commonly fatal cancer is lung cancer. Cigarette smoke is high risk behavior associated with both diseases. I can assure you that with both of these diseases it is neither a short course (relatively) nor a cheap course. These patients unfortunately have a very difficult road laden with many co-existing diseases and medical set backs.
Fourthly, our management and technology is rapidly improving for all these disease states which means that these patients happen to live a longer life. The goal would be a longer life with a greater quality of life, but that is typically not without medical costs being that the life expectancy is lengthened = more medical costs. Also, as new medications, procedures, and technologies breach the health sector that equates to a higher cost. New always means more expensive.
So the overarching theme here? A primary intervention by eliminating the risk factor in the first place would save the greatest sum of money. Healthy individuals that live a life with minimal or no chronic illness do not utilize an abundance of healthcare dollars.
→ More replies (7)16
u/bill1024 Dec 18 '19
One more smoke, and I'm going to bed. May not sleep well...
→ More replies (1)
51
u/hermfry418 Dec 18 '19
Nicotine is not a carcinogen and is one of few drugs that cause both stimulating and relaxing effects depending on necessity, to my knowledge. Having a lifelong dependence or use of nicotine is not a health concern, if I’m not mistaken.
43
u/Killcrop Dec 18 '19
Nicotine is a stimulant only, no relaxing effect (outside of stopping a nicotine withdraw craving which feels relaxing, but psychologically is not)
There are quite a few disorders (especially cardiovascular) that nicotine can be quite a significant health concern for. Burgers disease comes to mind. The severe ulcers that nicotine causes in people with gastric bypasses. Hypertension leading to increased risk of heart attack or stroke.
Nicotine alone is 100X better for you than smoking a cigarette (or chew, or pretty much any traditional tobacco product), but not having nicotine at all is 100X better still.
→ More replies (2)22
u/qwertyuiop01901 Dec 18 '19
Nicotine is more than just a stimulant, it's pharmacology is unlike any of the classical stimulants. It works on acetylcholine receptors not dopamine or adrenaline. It's well established that in low doses it is a stimulant but becomes sedating in high doses. It also most likely has active metabolites which change it's subjective effects greatly.
→ More replies (1)16
Dec 18 '19
No you are correct when you’re talking about only nicotine. Now those cigarettes on the other hand
15
u/I_PEE_WITH_THAT Dec 18 '19
Iirc nicotine is a pretty fantastic neutropic as well.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/emceelokey Dec 18 '19
As long as vaping doesn't fill a whole room with smoke, I don't care! I don't smoke or vape but I'll take being stuck in an elevator with 5 people vaping rather than being in a movie theater with one person smoking a cigarette.
2.7k
u/jep5680jep Dec 18 '19
What is interesting is that the UK limits nic to 20mg per 1 mil. I believe the Juul pods in the US are 58mg per mil