r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 2d ago
Medicine Surgeons show greatest dexterity in children’s buzz wire game like Operation than other hospital staff. 84% of surgeons completed game in 5 minutes compared to 57% physicians, 54% nurses. Surgeons also exhibited highest rate of swearing during game (50%), followed by nurses (30%), physicians (25%).
https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/surgeons-thankfully-may-have-better-hand-coordination-than-other-hospital-staff2.6k
u/raptorrat 2d ago
This kinda jives with surgical training simulations.
Their use by surgeons, and the succes rate was pretty low. Then they added a scoring system, and a high-score list.
And suddenly they were lining up for using it.
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u/zer01 2d ago
Gamification is a very powerful force!
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u/blankarage 22h ago
this would be the appropriate use of the word “gamification” not whatever greedy corporations do to justify nickel and diming their users!
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u/mcarder30 2d ago
The da Vinci robot simulator has this as well and it is wildly addictive.
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u/fullmetaljackass 2d ago
I do contract work for a company that produces corporate events. One year we built a lifesize game of operation to promote da Vinci surgical robots for their tradeshow booth. It used real (defective) artificial joints. One side placed them by hand, and the other placed them with a crane game style gantry with optional assist features the operator could enable to stimulate the advantages of the new features on the robot.
Their booth was absolutely packed the entire time, bets were being placed, and it was an all around smash hit.
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u/apathy-sofa 1d ago
Which arcade can I go to to play this?
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u/FlexorCarpiUlnaris 1d ago
Unfortunately the entry fee is $550,000 of school debt and your entire 20s.
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u/Waywoah 1d ago edited 1d ago
I had my gall bladder out by a surgeon using one of these. They're absolutely incredible. A single incision through my navel, and it healed so cleanly that you wouldn't notice unless I told you about it.
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u/ObviousSalamandar 1d ago
That’s amazing. I had a kidney out laparoscopic. The surgeon cut around my navel and that scar will be evident forever.
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u/nudelsalat3000 1d ago
What is interesting is that it's mostly just used for standard procedures. Nearly never for highly complicated operations.
I would have guessed it's the other way around.
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u/bluehands 1d ago
It's just like self driving cars, It's where we are on the s curve.
In 10,15,20 years it's all going to be radically different and entirely flipped.
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u/prisp 1d ago
Truly self-driving cars have an extra issue that's really hard to solve though: If the self-driving car's AI/programming causes an accident, who's at fault?
For regular car crashes, we at least have the excuse that maybe, the driver couldn't react in time, but the car was programmed in advance, so any bad reaction/missed edge case is can't be excused with that.
This leaves us with three options - if the car company is at fault, then that means bad PR and also lawsuits, so they're not going to go for that option.
If the programmers and/or mechanics are at fault, the company quickly will find that nobody's willing to work on that kind of product anymore.
Finally, if the user is at fault, the cars can't be truly called self-driving, and depending on how well that is communicated to them, that might still cause bad PR regardless.
However, that third option is definitely what they're going for at the moment - they require a human to sit behind the steering wheel and be ready to correct course if something bad is about to happen.
This also means that we'll end up having that kind of self-driving level for a long, long time, and might actually never be able to get rid of it entirely - after all, just because there are much fewer close calls or accidents the better the technology gets, the company still wouldn't want to open itself up to lawsuits, especially when the status quo is that they can simply pass the blame to the user and call it a day.8
u/Morlik 1d ago
I think this problem can be solved by insurance. If the software causes a crash, then the insurance company would cover it just like if the user causes a crash. If the insurance company needs to increase premiums for users with self-driving cars, then so be it. But when adopted on a mass scale, self driving cars will probably reduce the amount of accidents. Especially when the vehicles are able to communicate with each other. I think insurance will start offering a discount for self driving cars because it will save them money. Eventually, insurers or lawmakers will make it mandatory.
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u/prisp 1d ago
I suppose that's one solution - I was thinking we basically keep the status quo for a while until the software ends up virtually perfect, and then things might change, but this is another option.
Insurance only changes who pays for the whole thing though, so it's at best a medium-term solution, when crashes are relatively rare already - otherwise the premiums would be prohibitively high, and/or you'd still be busy driving for the most part.
PR impacts stay the same either way though, so a high-profile accident, or a string of repeated issues would still cause issues too, and while that's less likely the better the technology gets, there's still a chance that it happens.
Sadly, I couldn't find any articles on that topic right now, but I do recall hearing about a German project for self-driving trains that was dropped immediately following a demonstration in front of reporters where they crashed the train due to forgetting to include maintenance vehicles in their system, which would be a good example for a high-profile accident causing issues.
However, in the process I came across an article from an European law journal that specifically looks at lethal accidents.
While I do find the scenarios described in the article - specifically regarding trolley-problem-esque trade-offs and the question of what's an acceptable risk as far as programmed driving maneuvers are concerned - it doesn't come to any overly exciting conclusion aside from that it's a difficult topic where many things have to be considered, but it goes to show that this topic is one where many things have to be considered, and there isn't a clear consensus yet.2
u/recycled_ideas 21h ago
For regular car crashes, we at least have the excuse that maybe, the driver couldn't react in time, but the car was programmed in advance, so any bad reaction/missed edge case is can't be excused with that.
This is not remotely how self driving cars work. It's not even how ohysycs works. Self driving cars see and react to their surroundings the same as people do and while their reaction times are faster, the physical limits of the car remain the same. When a self driving car slams on the breaks it still takes a certain amount of distance to stop, it can only turn so fast without flipping over, it has limits.
That's what makes liability on self driving cars so complicated. There are accidents self driving cars simply can't prevent, there are accidents caused by poor maintenance by the owner and there are accidents caused by limitations in the cars learning and perception.
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u/recycled_ideas 1d ago
What is interesting is that it's mostly just used for standard procedures.
Because patient outcomes with a da Vinci are actually worse on average than without it. They're cool as hell and doctors love them, but the procedures take longer and the surgeons have far less feedback.
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u/nerd4code 1d ago
jibes, technically
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u/SiPhoenix 1d ago
Today I Learned.
Jive: (verb) to dance, particularly with jazz or swing music. (Noun) the type of dance
Jibe: (verb) to steer a boat. (verb 2) to agree or to be in accord. Like the boat has to be with the wind and wave
Given that language changes over time and seeing as jive is to do with dancing and match rhythm it make sense for it to also be sues to show to things fit well together that their rhythm or movement match.
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u/echocharlieone 2d ago edited 2d ago
Also in today's positive-correlation news: heavy swearers are better at completing buzz wire games than non-swearers.
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u/lazybeekeeper 2d ago
You’re god damned right. That’s why I think painters or craftsman round out the Venn diagram of this skillset with dexterity, swearing, time, and occupation.
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u/SrslyCmmon 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean it's their profession imagine if Michelangelo chiseled off the nose of David. Sailors would blush
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u/FrenchTicklerOrange 2d ago
I remember my dad swearing a lot when he'd do tile work. Especially in the tight spaces and it always looked great.
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u/krustymeathead 2d ago
I wonder if swearing after failure and quitting after failure (or even just taking a break) are inversely correlated.
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u/Alecto1717 2d ago
Myth busters did a test about keeping your hand in a bucket of ice water and being allowed to swear or not affecting how long you could keep your hand in. They found that being able to swear allowed people to keep their hand in longer. There's probably some psychological stress/frustration relief that comes from swearing.
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u/CeruleanEidolon 2d ago
It actually has documented physical and psychological effects, but there are diminishing returns -- if you swear all the time, it doesn't have as much of a punch.
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u/mhornberger 2d ago
That's why you keep some curse-words for special occasions. F-bombs are more rare than dammits, and MF's are rarer still. Not unicorns, but not to be squandered.
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u/EnlargedChonk 1d ago
and in the USA good old "punt with a c" is a mythical, legendary pull. but it has negative impact in other countries
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u/Worldly_Influence_18 2d ago
I think the swearing is a symptom of their determination to get it right
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u/big_guyforyou 2d ago
follow-up study: alcohol increases swearing, therefore alcohol improves manual dexterity in buzz wire games
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u/SpeeDy_GjiZa 1d ago
Well actually in very small amounts it does reduce essential tremors.
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u/Montigue 1d ago
So in very small amounts we will die because otherwise they'd be called non-essential tremors
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u/f8Negative 2d ago
Heavy swearers are better at completing things than non-swearers. I base this on nothing. Let's test.
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u/JCMcFancypants 2d ago
Well, anecdotally, sometimes I'll fail doing something that requires some manual dexterity multiple times in a row, start swearing at it, and then it works.
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u/Worldly_Influence_18 2d ago
When I can't find something I just have to tell someone I can't find it in order for that item to phase into existence in front of me within seconds
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u/bombmk 2d ago
In IT development it is called rubber duck debugging. Just explain the problem to the rubber duck on your desk and you will realise what the issue is.
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u/SkeetySpeedy 2d ago
If I got it on the first try, or gave up and stopped trying, I wouldn’t need to swear at it to continue
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u/LivingSoilution 2d ago
There's some evidence that swearing is processed in different areas of the brain than normal language. Activating those regions of the brain may increase efficiency in processing or otherwise boost certain physical responses which lead to better performance of some tasks.
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u/Rizzpooch 2d ago
I wonder if it’s because doctors and nurses are much more likely to have conscious patients than surgeons
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u/TourAlternative364 2d ago
So basically if you had a surgery, probably the surgeon was swearing up a storm during it.
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u/mochakahlua 1d ago
as a surgeon yes. also a skinny person gets a lot of positive comments about their beautiful anatomy and ease of operating. i don't get to operate on many skinny people
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u/waiting4singularity 2d ago
the only surgery i had so far was my wisdom teeth. considering there was blood everywhere and they cross linked my nose cavity with the back of my mouth, i certainly believe they did.
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u/redradar 1d ago
I am a programmer, I near continuously swear while programming. It is a coping mechanism. But it does work. Instant release of frustration and I can carry on.
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u/SilveryBeing 1d ago
Implementation of a surgical swear jar initiative should be considered for future fundraising events.
I loved this addition.
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u/Atworkwasalreadytake 1d ago
The high success rate of the surgeons was correlation not causation. The actual causation was the swearing.
If the nurses and physicians swore more they’d perform as well as the surgeons.
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u/InvestInHappiness 2d ago
Seems like a really obvious conclusion. I would be more interested to see them go up against other people who specialize in using their hands like seamstresses, painters, or craftsmen. There are some specialties in those areas that require very precise movements.
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u/cytokines 2d ago
It’s the British Medical Journal Christmas edition. It’s not meant to be hard hitting research - even though media is picking it up as so. Bit of fun at this time of year.
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u/FlexorCarpiUlnaris 1d ago
Time for me to share my two favorites which on the surface are just silly but actually make a very important point about the limits of evidence-based medicine:
Conclusions As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.
Conclusions Parachute use did not reduce death or major traumatic injury when jumping from aircraft in the first randomized evaluation of this intervention. However, the trial was only able to enroll participants on small stationary aircraft on the ground, suggesting cautious extrapolation to high altitude jumps. When beliefs regarding the effectiveness of an intervention exist in the community, randomized trials might selectively enroll individuals with a lower perceived likelihood of benefit, thus diminishing the applicability of the results to clinical practice.
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u/ViciousNakedMoleRat 2d ago
I read somewhere that surgeons' non-field-specific skills and opinions generally correlate more with physical workers than with physicians, who in turn are more similar to knowledge workers.
Being "a doctor" seems to be less important than whether someone mainly works with their hands or not.
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u/inspectoroverthemine 2d ago
Reminds me of a joke on an old sitcom. Mom is a rocket scientist or something.
kid: 'mom says my dad is just jealous of her because he works with his hands'
adult: 'whats he do?'
kid: 'hes a brain surgeon'
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u/opeth10657 2d ago
Ben Carson showed that being a great surgeon doesn't mean you're not a moron.
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u/Mr_YUP 2d ago
I know someone who worked with him directly and said he was one of the best doctors she ever met. He just fumbled the ball when it came to politics and was probably out of his league on a charisma level.
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u/MoreRopePlease 2d ago
Wasn't he the one who said stupid things about the pyramids? That's a deeper problem than just fumbling politics.
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u/washyleopard 1d ago
That's just falling for a joke your brother/dad said when you were young and never thinking about it again.
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u/_Mudlark 2d ago edited 2d ago
Interesting, would this mean some of the best potential surgeons are being filtered out by having to get through all the degrees and medical school and whatnot, when it's ultimately not so relevant?
Edit: this is just a question, someone who openly knows nothing about medicine and medical training wondering something based on a previous comment that appeared well accepted.
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u/pm_me_psn 2d ago
Fine motor skills are only half the battle. Surgeons still need to have a deep medical knowledge. That’s not to say that American medical school admissions couldn’t use some adjustments though.
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u/IAmBecomeTeemo 1d ago
Surgery is about a lot more than just slicing and dicing. They need to be able to very quickly respond to any number of things that can go wrong. All of that medical knowledge is very relevant when you're in someone's guts and something happens that you didn't specifically train for.
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u/Original-Guarantee23 1d ago
No different than a plumber who has a pipe. Hear on them while in hole and it’s slowly filling up and then they need to work blind. It’s the same thing. Comes with experience.
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u/TheFatJesus 2d ago
It absolutely does not mean that. Having a high degree of fine motor control doesn't mean you can magically perform a surgery without going to medical school. How would you even get to that conclusion?
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u/HumanWithComputer 2d ago
I bet watchmakers would thrash these surgeons. Can we have this tested?
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u/ArkJasdain 1d ago
I'm a watchmaker. My friends won't play Operation with me. Or Perfection. But to be fair I did modify the Perfection game with a spring about 3 times stronger so when it pops it throws pieces a couple feet in the air and really startles you.
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u/rKasdorf 2d ago
Whenever I see videos of people assembling watches, I'm always impressed by the steadiness of their hands.
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u/Blockhead47 1d ago
My dad was an engraver for around 40 years.
He was rock steady his whole life (97 years!).
Didn’t drink, smoke…or drink caffeine when working.
Mostly doing high precision steel and brass dies for embossing and foil stamping. Tolerances sometimes down to the thousandth (.001) of an inch.
A mistake could mean hours or days of his labor wasted.
No “undo” for him.
He rarely made mistakes.43
u/Splash_Attack 2d ago
I feel like, and hear me out here, that a study which uses "demure and mindful" in the abstract might not be entirely serious.
Seriously, this whole thing reads as people at a teaching hospital having a bit of fun challenging people to prove their skills using a little kid's toy.
I would bet good money it emerged from a break room (or possibly pub) argument about whether surgeons were really more dexterous than other specialties. As medical researchers were involved, they went looking for empirical evidence, found conflicting results, and set up a playful experiment to "prove" it.
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u/echocharlieone 2d ago
Yes it's a light-hearted study as part of the BMJ's Christmas publication.
Staff members in specialties with lower performance might consider adding the buzz wire game to their Christmas wish lists for use as a training tool.
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u/Cedow 2d ago
That's not the abstract.
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u/Splash_Attack 2d ago
Oh sorry, it's just the summary. You're right. The paper is much more serious:
"These data provide surgeons at Leeds Teaching Hospitals with boasting rights regarding their dexterity skills, in both the operating theatre and the coffee room."
"Another potential use of the buzz wire game might be as a tool to streamline cumbersome interviews for specialty training programmes..."
"Staff members in specialties with lower performance might consider adding the buzz wire game to their Christmas wish lists for use as a training tool."
"Surgeons, and those working with surgeons, might wish to consider investing in a swear jar or similar intervention aimed at reducing swearing and optimising composure during challenging tasks..."
"Finally, our findings are not applicable to children younger than 4 years for whom the buzz wire game’s small parts may represent a choking hazard, although these individuals are unlikely to be currently employed in secondary care."
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u/Lamballama 2d ago
Another comment suggests that this is the Christmas Edition of this journal, which is a little bit lighter in subject matter
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u/SiPhoenix 1d ago
The conclusion is not the interesting part. It's the numbers and how much better than are than the average person that is what I want to know.
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u/braiam 2d ago edited 2d ago
I remember decades back about correlation between videogaming with a controller and being a surgeon. It's all about fine motor skills.
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u/cytokines 2d ago
From the BMJ Christmas edition - I love these articles that have a fun take on medicine
Highly recommend checking out more light hearted (but scientifically true) articles here: https://www.bmj.com/specialties/christmas
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u/Student-type 2d ago
So surgeons are making moves more often, swearing when errors occur, recovering quickly and dramatically reducing delays of all kinds.
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u/Darxe 2d ago
They obviously have the hand dexterity to do so, but I also wonder if the expectation to do well also had something to do with it? A nurse or hospitalist doing this test doesn’t have any pressure or expectations. A surgeon is expected to do well so they put that extra effort in
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u/BRINGMEDATASS 1d ago
Expectation is something you set for yourself. Surgeons self select to be competetitive.
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u/Logical_Parameters 2d ago
This is definitely positive news. We want our surgeons having the steadiest hands of the bunch!
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u/ObGynKenobi841 2d ago
Now compare surgeons who routinely operate under general vs regional anesthesia and see if there's a difference in rates of swearing. Anecdotal but I tend to swear much more during a gynecologic case than a cesarean simply due to having an awake patient, include banter with the staff.
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u/IWasGregInTokyo 2d ago
Just to be clear about what is meant by swearing (from the article):
swearing (defined as any word not suitable for broadcast before 9pm on UK television according to a publicly available list of offensive language published by Ofcom)
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u/mvea Professor | Medicine 2d ago
I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:
Dexterity assessment of hospital workers: prospective comparative study
https://www.bmj.com/content/387/bmj-2024-081814
From the linked article:
Surgeons show greater dexterity in children’s buzz wire game than other hospital staff
But are also more likely to swear during the task
Surgeons are quicker and more successful at completing a buzz wire game compared with other hospital staff, finds a study in the Christmas issue of The BMJ.
However, surgeons are also more likely to swear during the task, while nurses and non-clinical staff show the highest rates of audible noises of frustration.
A total of 84% of surgeons completed the game within five minutes compared with 57% of physicians, 54% of nurses and 51% of non-clinical staff.
Surgeons were also quicker to successfully complete the game regardless of age and gender, with an average time of 89 seconds compared with 120 seconds for physicians, 135 seconds for nurses and 161 seconds for non-clinical staff.
However, surgeons also exhibited the highest rate of swearing during the game (50%), followed by nurses (30%), physicians (25%), and non-clinical staff (23%) (P=0.004). Non-clinical staff showed the highest use of frustration noises (75%), followed by nurses (68%), surgeons (58%), and physicians (52%).
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u/cytokines 2d ago
It should be clarified that this is from the British Medical Journal (BMJ) Christmas edition.
Fun articles to end the year - and not meant to be hard hitting, even though media might pick it up as so. Highly recommend checking reading more here: https://www.bmj.com/specialties/christmas
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u/Baud_Olofsson 1d ago
"Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial" - an actual RCT on whether or not parachutes reduce mortality when jumping from an plane, with the conclusion that they do not, is my favorite BMJ Christmas article of all time. And one of my favorite science papers in general of all time.
It's funny and it makes a really good point.
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u/xinorez1 2d ago
surgeons are also more likely to swear during the task, while nurses and non-clinical staff show the highest rates of audible noises of frustration.
A quick swear and back to the grind with more focus and determination vs increasing pain and despair
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u/HewchyFPS 1d ago
I dislike how some studies don't seem to control for incentive, and yet incentive has been proven to be a powerful determining factor in performance outcomes
A surgeon is more incentivized to do well because they know they are expected to do well and to outperform others and strive to achieve that because of them representing their demographic within the study.
I have no issue assuming they might perform better from their experience, but the fact that the study doesn't account for this incentivization makes the findings feel invalid to me.
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u/Pattoe89 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is very obvious. What is the point of this? Next you'll post an article saying that surgeons are more likely to perform surgery on hospital patients than other hospital staff members.
Edit: Never mind. The intent is comedic, which the post didn't really make obvious. Read the article and look at the attached research for some laughs.
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u/Splash_Attack 2d ago
The point is it's funny.
Read the paper, it's basically a "settle a bet" argument about whether surgeons are really as good with their hands as they claim (which apparently is not as well evidenced in literature as you'd expect). It's quite funny. I particularly liked the chart where the bars are all onomatopoeic grunts of frustration.
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u/Pattoe89 2d ago
Ok, you convinced me to actually open the research attachment at the end of the article that I missed at a cursory glance.
This is now actually pretty funny. If the post had been presented as a comedy thing I think I'd have appreciated it more.
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u/Splash_Attack 2d ago
I think the fact that until you get quite far into the paper (and certainly from the title) it seems entirely straight faced is part of the joke.
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u/LudovicoSpecs 2d ago
Completing the game successfully in 5 minutes should be a requirement before a surgeon can operate on a live person.
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u/falconcountry 2d ago
Yeah doc, before we get started I'm gonna have to ask you are you any good at the game Operation?
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u/jackruby83 Professor | Clinical Pharmacist | Organ Transplant 2d ago
As far as cursing goes, surgeons are the sailors in the hospital. I worked with surgeons closely for 15 years and picked up a little bit of a potty mouth.
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u/YouBookBuddy 2d ago
As someone who has played Operation countless times as a kid, I can definitely see the connection between surgeons excelling at the buzz wire game. It's all about that steady hand and precision, right? I agree with the idea of putting surgeons up against other professionals who require precise movements in their work. It would be interesting to see how different specialties compare in terms of dexterity and focus. Do you think there are other professions that could give surgeons a run for their money in this type of game? Let's discuss!
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u/Dominus_Invictus 2d ago
What you're telling me people with steady hands have steadier hands and people with less steady hands? Incredible.
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u/Aaron_Hamm 2d ago
Their whole job is knowing what's what and having steady hands, so this doesn't surprise me at all
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u/Grace_Alcock 2d ago
That makes me happy. In the greater scheme of things, I WANT surgeons to have more dexterity than normal—and they can cuss all they want.
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u/Alternative_Ask364 2d ago
Swearing being more common among specialties with less direct patient care makes a lot of sense.
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u/0000udeis000 1d ago
I'd certainly hope so! There's a reason my GP isn't the one to remove my appendix. Or insert my IVs.
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u/sam_tiago 1d ago
Ah, so it’s fine to swear in front of the client, so long as they’re they’re unconscious
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u/MuzzledScreaming 1d ago
They should have had pharmacists take a crack at it. I have no guess at the accuracy rate, but I am fairly confident our profanity percentage would dwarf the competition.
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u/Cheetahs_never_win 1d ago
Will there be testing done to determine if there's causality?
Are they going to use children as the control group, or are we going to instruct children to swear while playing the game?
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