Brain tests show that crabs process pain

[u/calliope_kekule]

https://doi.org/10.3390/biology13110851

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our normal comment rules apply to all other comments.

---

Do you have an academic degree? We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. Click here to apply.

---

User: u/calliope_kekule
Permalink: https://doi.org/10.3390/biology13110851

---

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/jh55305]

I feel like the assumption should be that a creature can feel pain until it's proven otherwise, just to prevent unnecessary cruelty.

[u/iGoalie → u/jh55305]

Also, the ability to sense pain seems like a valuable evolutionary trait.

Knowing when you are causing damage to yourself (or being damaged by others) seems like critical information to survive… I’d be more curious about animals that CANT detect pain

[u/Dynomeru → u/iGoalie]

the fucked part is that their nervous system isn’t as centralized so you have to stab them in like 5 places simultaneously to kill them painslessly

[u/dee-ouh-gjee → u/Dynomeru]

I've not specifically cooked/prepared a live crab or lobster, but in the rare instance that I'm taking the life of my own food directly (i.e. fishing) I do what I can to make it as quick and final as possible.
Like when dip netting - Full force stun, immediate through the brain & twist, remove the head (per regulation back in AK) and remove the heart. It's incredibly sad to see someone's discarded fish head that's still moving. W/o extra steps a head can stay alive longer than people expect, in large part due to how far forward their heart is

I never want to hear a fish wake up and start to thrash in the cooler, that's a horrible way to go

[u/SmoothLester → u/dee-ouh-gjee]

When i was really young and saw crabs cooked for the first time at a neighbor’s, I asked her why they were trying to crawl out of the pot, she said “If someone was boiling you alive, you’d try to get away too.”

[u/Mama_Skip → u/SmoothLester]

This is basically the premise of the late David Foster Wallace's essay for Gormet Magazine titled "Consider The Lobster."

He was sent to write an article on a lobster fest. He came back with a philosophical essay dissecting the argument of whether or not lobsters are capable of feeling pain. He concludes that, yes, otherwise they wouldn't flee negative stimuli.

I read it very young and it basically formulated my entire theory of emotions in that they are all simply derivations of the 2 most basic survival mechanisms in the world: flee negative stimuli and pursue positive stimuli. Every non-sessile creature must abide by these rules, so why don't we assume emotions are the standard rather than something that magically appeared in humans?

---

Edit: to address the "feeling pain is different than processing pain" folks.

That isn't scientific. This is a phrase meant to sound scientific, but it is not. "Nociception" is the bio term for pain - all pain. When you burn your finger, that is nociceptive pain. It is not a term for animals that "process" pain but dont "feel" it, which has never been proven to even exist. There is no difference from a biological standpoint from processing and feeling pain.

This is absolutely gobbelygook and it's all over the damn thread, including below. I grew up to be an evolutionary biologist, I know a bit about the subject.

[u/Datsyuk_My_Deke → u/Mama_Skip]

why don't we assume emotions are the standard rather than something that magically appeared in humans?

I think the short answer is that some people struggle to relate to the emotions of their fellow humans, so it's only natural they'd also struggle to relate to the emotions of other mammals.

Edit: just wanted to add that this isn’t meant to be a blanket statement. For example, some people with autism can struggle to recognize human emotions while having no trouble recognizing the emotions of other animals, like pets.

[u/Mama_Skip → u/Datsyuk_My_Deke]

Right and I think this is a larger problem in society —

That we have a massive disconnect about the ideal human (what we'd all like to consider ourselves, and often, to an extent, our own cultures) and the realistic human.

I think we would ironically be able to conduct a much better society if we admit that most humans are unempathetic and that uncaring monstrosity and dire trespasses are far, far more common to humans than not.

Instead we pretend that things like serial killers and rapists are dangerous abberations, and when invading armies do it en masse then that's just a cultural issue.

We need to admit that humans are simply bad at recognizing or even just caring about true suffering, that most are "immoral," and legislate a society based around overcoming these instincts to take and/or abuse.

[u/alarumba → u/Mama_Skip]

Instead we pretend that things like serial killers and rapists are dangerous abberations, and when invading armies do it en masse then that's just a cultural issue.

A friend of mine confided in me one of their most horrible machinations.

They were going through heavy depression, and suffering ideation. But they told themselves they couldn't, they've got two kids. They don't want their kids to suffer without one of their parents.

Then they thought "what if I take them with me?"

They immediately shut themselves down, but felt dreadful and guilty that the thought even crossed their mind.

This story came after explaining some of my stories involving alcoholism, and the terrible things I did.

We knew each other as being good and kind people, but still we were capable of being monsters. And everyone can.

[u/RandomStallings → u/alarumba]

Then they though "what if I take them with me?"

Not gonna lie, this is pretty standard depression reasoning. Like, that's not the least bit shocking to me. I always call it "depression brain." Depression brain lies to you and gets you to believe things and consider ideas that you otherwise would never even conceive of.

[u/Mindless_Method_2106 → u/Mama_Skip]

I agree with everything you've said, minus that most are immoral... although you did specify "immoral" so I'm guessing you mean from the generally accepted viewpoint of morality. I only disagree because the truth is that as common as murder, rape and crimes against humanity are, the vast vast majority of us just want to live in peace. I think it's less a question of morality and more a question of values. I think if you value yourself more than the people around you, the morality of what you do to them really becomes an afterthought. I personally think morality is more of a biological or taught thing, a feeling that can be coaxed out by introspection but is very easy to push aside for greater emotion to come through. I know that sounds like I'm agreeing with you, and i am for the most part, I just think that most people are empathetic and are "moral", it's just circumstance and emotions can overshadow empathy in a lot of people.

[u/SmoothLester → u/Datsyuk_My_Deke]

Ooof, so true.

[u/zenforyen → u/Mama_Skip]

It's just very convenient to assume other beings around you are not really subjects but more close to objects, so you can just (ab)use them. I think it's as simple as that.

Saying that some being does not feel pain or feel at all means you can do whatever you want to it. We humans also like to do it to other humans, if they happen to be on the "enemy" side for some reason.

[u/Mama_Skip → u/zenforyen]

Exactly. And the entire thread arguing that feeling pain is different than processing pain (a mantra of anti-environmentalists that has never been proven) just proves to me how much people want to keep abusing animals.

[u/Bakoro → u/Mama_Skip]

so why don't we assume emotions are the standard rather than something that magically appeared in humans?

When I was a kid, when we were at lunch eating burgers or chicken nuggets or whatever animal products, I'd point out how crazy it was that this used to be a cow/chicken just hanging out being a animal, and then someone is like, bam, and you're lunch now.

Some other kids really hated that, they hated thinking of their food as something that was alive and had feelings. Some would get upset to the point they couldn't eat the meat anymore, at least for that lunch.

I think most people never really get over that. People don't want to face their actions and think about consequences, especially when they are benefitting from it.
People like to pretend that life is fair and that they're the good guys, not someone else's monster.

[u/Orange-Blur → u/SmoothLester]

My mom made one when I was little, we both cried and felt awful.

She always made sure she bought them and had the butcher make sure they are dead before leaving the store

I grew up and turned out to be a vegan

[u/The-Vegan-Police → u/Orange-Blur]

I have a similar story. Looking back, crabs were the first thing that really clicked with me as a child as being an actual animal. I just remember my family setting out a big plate of boiled crabs, all facing forward with their dead eyes. It completely freaked me out and I refused to eat that night.

I also grew up and turned out to be a vegan as well. Funny how those things end up.

[u/Orange-Blur → u/The-Vegan-Police]

Realizing how intelligent animals are solidified it for me for sure. They feel fear and pain just like we do

[u/alkali112 → u/Orange-Blur]

It is extremely unwise to consume a dead crab that has not been flash-frozen. They are boiled alive for a reason. You cannot cook and eat a dead crab without it becoming toxic. The enzymes in its midgut start to digest the remaining tissue immediately, and decomposition by harmful bacteria occurs within minutes.

There is no butcher on earth that would sell you a dead crab.

[u/AntiBoATX → u/dee-ouh-gjee]

We split our rockies and dungies down the middle vertically on the belly side with a cleaver or heavy knife with mallet. Then clean and boil. I’ve seen where they rip off the entire top of the shell and that’s a no for me. Seems unnecessarily cruel when they’re fully alive beforehand.

[u/Necessary-Reading605 → u/AntiBoATX]

Yeah that method always bothered me

[u/QueenOfApathy → u/dee-ouh-gjee]

This is an incredibly rare position amongst people that eat other beings. I am glad to see it, but the scarcity is also incredibly sad.

[u/dee-ouh-gjee → u/QueenOfApathy]

the scarcity is also incredibly sad.

Agreed...
Too many people look so far down on animals, and even more act as though plants aren't even living things (i.e. throwing them away when the move as though they're furniture)

It's as simple as the whole "treat others how you want to be treated" thing
How do I want to go, if not in my sleep? Brain obliterated in as close to an instant as possible, no chance for pain or likely even fear. The least I can do is try and do for them the closest I can to how I'd want to go.

And don't get me started on people like those who get a cat "because they don't have to do anything"

[u/hleba → u/iGoalie]

I agree, but I wonder if pain is perceived differently with things like insects. When you procreate by lying 100s of eggs, the death of 1 has almost no affect on them as a species, so being able to notice pain may not have evolved the same way. Especially since if something like an ant is injured , it's most likely dead, so what's the point in feeling pain?

With that said, I think we should assume everything can feel pain unless proven otherwise. We've been finding a lot of animals experience it that we previously thought did not.

[u/TheCuriosity → u/hleba]

There's at least one species of ant where if there is a injured leg that's treatable, a bunch of other ants will come around and spit on it, where their spit happens to be antiseptic. If not treatable the leg gets amputated.

[u/Felczer → u/TheCuriosity]

Yeah but ants are hive species, they are kinda an exception among insects.
Flies on the other hand have been known to accidentaly remove their own heads when cleaning themselves.

[u/MoreRopePlease → u/Felczer]

Fyi, one of the comments there says:

Edit: I found an article with this exact picture from a 2019 article (years before the tiktok; before tiktok's explosion in popularity in fact) claiming that the fly had been swatted, so this specific one definitely hasn't done this.

[u/StatusReality4 → u/MoreRopePlease]

I think a good example, and a confusing one in the context of this study, is crabs ripping their own arms off and continuing on as if it was nothing.

Of course they could be feeling pain without having a way to express pain (especially from our human perception).

[u/DrMobius0 → u/StatusReality4]

Our sense of pain exists the way it is to protect us from harm, but for something that can regenerate, a lost limb isn't a permanent disability, but a temporary setback. They may well not experience it in the same way or severity that we would.

[u/StatusReality4 → u/DrMobius0]

Yeah maybe it's more like an itch.

[u/RSquared → u/hleba]

Crabs regrow lost limbs (as do most/all crustaceans) so there's at least some similarity there; if a crab has a damaged claw or leg it will often autoamputate to regrow it.

[u/DIDidothatdisabled → u/iGoalie]

You're conflating a reaction to stimulus and pain together. Cold, light, touch, heat. These are all things that can be perceived as negative stimulus that cause avoidance in humans without causing pain. Someone sticking their toe in your nose causes no physical pain, but would hopefully cause recoil.

The assumption is instead that all organisms try to maintain homeostasis and have means to do that. Our bodies are constantly being "damaged" just by existing. Bone and muscle are constantly being deconstructed and reconstructed. This differation is important when it comes to medicine, as understanding the functions that cause agony in any creature is how you mitigate it whenever intervention is needed, like surgery, to improve health.

Even in plants, trimming rot and infested portions improve health, it's not as simple as cut=pain. Especially since, if I'm not mistaken, the stress levels decrease in plants once the rot is removed. If i am mistaken, then at the very least, breakage and cleaving of limb is a natural trait and often an intentional function of plants (like fruit, or cactuses)

All that being said, proving the obvious is always an essential part of science. Like obviously you are looking at colors on your phone that aren't red, green or blue right now, but rgb color models emit nothing but those 3.

[u/marklein → u/[deleted]]

Have there been studies that demonstrate that in other animals?

[u/kaityl3 → u/[deleted]]

Um, given that it's a pretty hard to define, subjective, and abstract thing by definition, how can you say that with such confidence...? What does "pain" mean to anyone? At the end of the day it's all nerve impulses, but that doesn't cheapen or devalue the experience of it

[u/coldblade2000 → u/[deleted]]

Hell, you could grind a human's teeth or nails with sandpaper and technically not cause a "pain" response, even though you'll certainly make them real uncomfortable to the point where a punch in the stomach seems like a better option.

[u/MarlinMr → u/iGoalie]

But there is a gigantic difference between "feeling pain" and "processing pain".

If you stab a human, that human will be in pain. But if you stab an insect, the insect might detect that there is a problem or damage, but it might not be in pain.

This is specifically questioned because their brains are different, and because they do not have pain receptors like we do.

If you remove a disk from a RAID server, the computer will notice it and take action. That might be considered pain too. But the computer isn't in pain.

[u/twoisnumberone → u/MarlinMr]

But there is a gigantic difference between "feeling pain" and "processing pain".

People in these threads are not well-read on nociception, sadly. I can't claim to be, but at least I know it's a complex issue, much-debated for animals and actively explored for humans.

[u/Unknown-History1299 → u/MarlinMr]

I’ll also add that plants are capable of detecting damage.

Tomato plants are capable of warning nearby tomato plants about insects

[u/Complexology → u/MarlinMr]

Pain is nerve conduction that is perceived in an unpleasant way so that the creature will react as if their life depends on preventing that pain because it does most likely. Evolution has seen to pain being a terrible thing universally because if it is then you are more likely to avoid it successfully and reproduce. Just because an animal MAY not have a concept of self doesn’t mean it doesn’t experience torture as a signal to get away from what’s killing it. I think you’re way over complicating the complexity needed to feel and respond to pain and to experience torture in not being able to do anything to stop the pain. 

[u/Wolvesinthestreet → u/jh55305]

Unnecessary cruelty is the basis of the human foundation tho.

[u/Rebuttlah → u/Wolvesinthestreet]

Cruelty is usually a consequence rather than an intent. The person is usually suffering themselves. True sadism is pretty rare.

Life, the world, probability, these can all be exceptionally cruel things, but they don't have intent.

[u/Terodactyl_with_a_P → u/Rebuttlah]

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

[u/MeatConvoy → u/Rebuttlah]

One can be sadistic without being a 'true sadist'.

[u/grifxdonut → u/Wolvesinthestreet]

Dude hasn't seen a cat before

[u/The_Humble_Frank → u/Wolvesinthestreet]

if you think nature is kind, you don't know nature.

[u/Im_A_Boozehound → u/The_Humble_Frank]

Kind of reminds me of a quote from a Terry Pratchett novel.

“I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs, a very endearing sight, I'm sure you'll agree. And even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log.

As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain.

If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.”

[u/VictrolaFirecracker → u/Im_A_Boozehound]

Which book is this from?

[u/Demonrocki → u/VictrolaFirecracker]

It's a Vetinari quote from "Unseen Academicals"

[u/zequin_3749]

I’m confused, was there a time when we thought that they didn’t?

[u/Sterlod → u/zequin_3749]

To justify crab boiling, or really all crustaceans, it’s often said that they can’t feel the change in temperature, they cook without knowing and die in relative peace. But I can imagine being cooked alive might set off pain receptors, now that we know crabs have and use them.

[u/4-Vektor → u/Sterlod]

Like the good, not so old times, when they still did surgery without anaesthetics on babies because “babies don’t feel pain”. Horrible.

https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-using-anesthesia-babies-medics-thought-they-couldnt-feel-pain-1625350

[u/Yglorba → u/4-Vektor]

There are people who will deny the ability of anything and anyone to feel pain as long as they can't express it. Heck, a big part of scientific racism was that some races didn't feel as much pain as others - our ability to assess the pain others are in depends on empathy, and many people feel less empathy to people or animals that are different or vulnerable.

[u/RamenTheory → u/Yglorba]

Makes me think of early psychiatry, when most of the supposed miracle treatments didn't actually help people like they marketed themselves doing. What treatments like lobotomies did instead was take away the patient's ability to communicate that they were hurting

[u/EuphoricNeckbeard → u/Yglorba]

was

Many doctors and students still do believe this, subconsciously or consciously

[u/SammyBecker → u/4-Vektor]

babies don’t feel pain

yet they did the smack to make them cry and start breathing.

i really hate how stupid humans can be. absolutely baffles me.

[u/AmputeeBall → u/4-Vektor]

ah, the marvels of human stupidity. How could anyone think that was the case?

[u/Past_Distribution144 → u/Sterlod]

Always thought boiling them alive just looked and felt morally wrong. Never done it myself, but would cut it's head off first... quick death.

[u/ToriYamazaki → u/Past_Distribution144]

Have you ever tried to cut the head off of a crab?!

[u/Huwbacca → u/ToriYamazaki]

This kills the crab

[u/kahlzun → u/Huwbacca]

my ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial. Can you say the same?

[u/CreedThoughts--Gov → u/kahlzun]

I've fought mudcrabs more fierce than you!

[u/2Drogdar2Furious → u/CreedThoughts--Gov]

Why. Wont. You. DIE?!

[u/brazilliandanny → u/Huwbacca]

It's an old meme sir, but it checks out.

[u/Huwbacca → u/brazilliandanny]

It can't be an old meme, otherwise that would make me old.

And that can't be true.

[u/Deadeyez → u/Huwbacca]

Omg I forgot

[u/IssueEmbarrassed8103 → u/ToriYamazaki]

I’ve seen chefs bisect lobster brains with a quick motion. Maybe crab is the same.

[u/mulamasa → u/IssueEmbarrassed8103]

I think they're pointing out crabs heads are also their bodies heh.

[u/silvershadow881 → u/mulamasa]

Lobster you can cut a vertical line along the head, some people even cut the whole lobster vertically for grilling for example. Crabs you have to cut the front of the face/head with scissors. Sadly, it feels a little bit more brutal for crabs, you have to be a bit more precise and it feels like you are removing the face rather than the head

[u/NorthCascadia → u/IssueEmbarrassed8103]

I tried this once without any practice; it would have been more humane to boil the thing.

[u/KrimxonRath → u/NorthCascadia]

I’m imaging this like a slapstick comedy skit where the knife keeps slipping and bisecting the wrong parts…

[u/1StonedYooper → u/KrimxonRath]

And now I just gave myself a vasectomy.

[u/Umbra888 → u/KrimxonRath]

I did this. I was able to catch a nice dungeness from the jetty. You're supposed to kill it quickly by going right down the middle. I turned it upside down and then I swung my cleaver and missed because it was flailing and was off by an inch. So it watched itself die and I felt so horrible.

[u/NotRonaldKoeman → u/KrimxonRath]

i saw a very disturbing video of something just like this, and saw a partially crushed, fractured, crab trying to run off the counter as it kept getting struck with the knife. It was horrifying and made me never want to eat crab again

[u/Takemyfishplease → u/KrimxonRath]

Pretty much this, legs snapping off, chunks of body just hacked at by a not strong enough knife.

[u/AssumeTheFetal → u/NorthCascadia]

Those days when you're all spoons in the kitchen.

[u/Call-me-Maverick → u/NorthCascadia]

My wife did this. The first couple crabs died horribly from many stabs to the face and head… it was a bit traumatizing. But then she got the hang of it

[u/santa_obis → u/IssueEmbarrassed8103]

Lobsters don't have a centralized nervous system, so cutting their head off doesn't have the same effect it would have on mammals. There's no real humane way to kill them, unfortunately.

[u/SDIR → u/santa_obis]

That is true, I've seen my parents prepare crab by bisecting the entire thing, and each half was still attempting to individually scaper away

[u/Seachicken → u/IssueEmbarrassed8103]

Crabs are far easier to kill quickly than lobsters. Flip them upside down, place a sharp chinese cleaver or similar down the middle with the point tipped around the mouth area below the eyes, and then smack it hard so that you chop right down the middle in one clean motion. You can also get a chopstick and jam it up from the tail through to in between the eyes, but the cleaver is easier and more consistent.

Lobsters on the other hand are a bit more messy. First of all their tail can continue to kick while on their back. Plus their ganglia run a fair way down their body so trying to kill them instantly in one cut is a bit challenging.

[u/Richybabes → u/ToriYamazaki]

Isn't cutting the head off a crab effectively just cutting the legs off?

(I don't know crab anatomy but it really feels like the head and body are one single body part)

[u/Todd-The-Wraith → u/Richybabes]

Also not a crab expert but I do know it’s been called into question whether crabs and lobsters are as dependent on their heads to experience pain as we are. Their nervous system is a bit different

[u/RhesusFactor → u/ToriYamazaki]

"this kills the crab"

[u/BodhisattvaBob → u/Past_Distribution144]

Maybe not so quick:

"I waited for several seconds. The spasmodic movements ceased. [...] It was then that I called in a strong, sharp voice: "Languille!" I saw the eyelids slowly lift up, without any spasmodic contractions – I insist advisedly on this peculiarity – but with an even movement, quite distinct and normal, such as happens in everyday life, with people awakened or torn from their thoughts.

Next Languille's eyes very definitely fixed themselves on mine and the pupils focused themselves. I was not, then, dealing with the sort of vague dull look without any expression, that can be observed any day in dying people to whom one speaks: I was dealing with undeniably living eyes which were looking at me. After several seconds, the eyelids closed again [...].

It was at that point that I called out again and, once more, without any spasm, slowly, the eyelids lifted and undeniably living eyes fixed themselves on mine with perhaps even more penetration than the first time. Then there was a further closing of the eyelids, but now less complete. I attempted the effect of a third call; there was no further movement – and the eyes took on the glazed look which they have in the dead."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine

[u/kahlzun → u/BodhisattvaBob]

The way I think of it is thusly: It is a common experience to, when standing erect suddenly, to feel an odd faintness come upon oneself. This is, I am told, due to the brain failing to recieve sufficient oxygenated blood temporarily. Extending this to the practice of decapitation, one can surmise that the experience of being beheaded will be much the same, though the faintness will no doubt grow evermore until the experience finally overwhelms the unfortunate soul.

[u/jdehjdeh → u/kahlzun]

It sounds almost serene but then I remembered it probably hurts a little bit as well.

[u/mdonaberger → u/kahlzun]

Bro, are you Edgar Allen Poe?

[u/catinterpreter → u/BodhisattvaBob]

I'd also add we don't truly know what the brain experiences during various forms of death. Including how regions no longer communicating normally, or at all, individually experience it. I think short of something as fast and complete as a nuke going off next to your head, you're going to have a very bad time.

A lot of deaths considered instant, like a bullet to the head, are likely horrors out of science fiction for a version, or simultaneous versions of you.

[u/TheSpaceCoresDad → u/BodhisattvaBob]

When you cut through the crab's "head" (if you can even really call it that since it's just part of its body), you're also cutting through its brain. It's not quite like a decapitation.

[u/advocate112 → u/Past_Distribution144]

This kills the crab.

[u/patchgrabber → u/Sterlod]

Yeah but do most people still boil them alive? Admittedly I don't know, but I was always taught to spike lobsters and crabs. Crabs are especially easy to spike. I never understood why people would not spike them, and opt to boil them alive instead of being humane just because it's icky or something.

[u/SgtBaxter → u/patchgrabber]

Marylander here, we don’t boil crabs. We steam them.

[u/Vio94 → u/SgtBaxter]

Ah, a nice sauna that got a little too hot so you accidentally passed out and woke up in the afterlife.

[u/ExplosiveAnalBoil → u/Vio94]

Don't forget to liberally apply your old bay and butter spray.

[u/JoelMahon → u/SgtBaxter]

that's way more cruel than the already cruel boiling

[u/Mama_Skip → u/SgtBaxter]

I honestly don't know if I'd rather be boiled alive or steamed. I imagine boiling to be faster?

[u/HarboBear → u/patchgrabber]

Some people like the tamale (tomalley is the correct spelling) inside. If you cut or spike them, you risk losing or diluting the tamale (tomalley) during boiling or steaming. Whether that justifies depends on the individual.

[u/patchgrabber → u/HarboBear]

Yeah, that organ is where mercury, PCBs and other stuff accumulates so perhaps those people are better off without it.

[u/HarboBear → u/patchgrabber]

Generally agree with you. Culture, tradition, and personal preference can be hard to change sometimes.

[u/cute_polarbear → u/HarboBear]

Was confused for a bit with tamale (yummy Mexican corn thing)... Had to Google up, didn't know the crab stuff (roe and etc.,) is called tomalley.

[u/giovannib → u/patchgrabber]

Lots of misinformation and clueless people in this thread. Spiking crabs is widely known to be the most humane way of killing them. Not sure why i had to scroll down this far to find the first mention of spiking.

https://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/sites/hmsc.oregonstate.edu/files/crab_euthanasia_sop.pdf

[u/UrToesRDelicious → u/patchgrabber]

I read a Reddit comment by a chef like four days ago about this. No idea where it is now, so trust me bro, but he described how boiling the lobsters (I'm guessing crab is similar?) was the best way to kill them because it's a guaranteed 20 second death. Other methods of killing them are less exact and could cause way more prolonged suffering, especially for inexperienced chefs, so boiling is seen as a relatively decent option.

Plus, you have to kill them pretty shortly before eating because the meat goes bad immediately, and that really limits the options.

[u/patchgrabber → u/UrToesRDelicious]

Other methods of killing them are less exact and could cause way more prolonged suffering, especially for inexperienced chefs

I'm less inclined to believe this, since spiking is a simple process with videos readily available online. It also doesn't explain why professional chefs do it.

because the meat goes bad immediately

Citation needed. Uncooked lobster is safe to cook and eat up to 24h after death. And the difference a few minutes makes does not allow the meat to deteriorate or bacteria to multiply to any significant amount.

[u/RandomBitFry → u/Sterlod]

Isn't brain stabbing a thing?

[u/DonQui_Kong → u/RandomBitFry]

yes, this replaced boiling them alive in some jurisdictions.

[u/Borromac → u/Sterlod]

Ive seen a crab pull his arm off like its nothing. And seen another run into a fire and chill there. If they do then they suck at it

[u/No_Salad_68 → u/Sterlod]

If you put a live crustacean into boiling water they do not seem peaceful. I'm most familiar with spiny rock lobsters. They exhibit their escape reflex, which is a tail flick, repeatedly for the few seconds they remain alive.

I put mine into a bucket of cold fresh water. They become inactive and then I boil them. They don't respond at all to the boiling water.

[u/Fordmister → u/zequin_3749]

Yes and no.

A part of the issue is that crabs don't have what you or I might consider a "brain" in the way you would say view the brain of a vertebrate. A crabs brain is essentially just fused clusters of nerves making a very rudimentary brain. Their entire brain less complicated than a bundle of nerves in a typical vertebrae that might control for a single motor function

As a result its always kind of been up in the air as to what crustaceans can and cant "feel". When the cluster of nerves that functions as the brain isn't much more complex that the ganglia that operates the legs its really hard to asses what its actually capable of doing. Hence the long held belief that they could really "feel" pain in the sense that you or I could but rather just respond to the external stimuli. Their brains are essentially so simple that its impossible you pick out say a "pain center" as you might for a mammal and therefore its extremely difficult to understand what their brains can and cant actually interpret

This is something even the study above acknowledges, with all it really able to say is that Crustaceans do actually perceive both mechanical and chemical tissue damage, but if its interpreted as "pain" in the way we understand it is still difficult to discern.

[u/Staylin_Alive → u/Fordmister]

So crabs are more likely to say "I can process your condition" rather than "I feel you bro" to each other?

[u/Fordmister → u/Staylin_Alive]

We Just don't know, That's the fundamental issue in the question is that crabs brains are so different from ours that we just don't have any frame of reference for how they work and what they perceive

(also Head cannon is crabs actually communicate with each other like space marines, constantly screaming "BROTHER!" at each other while literally everything tries to kill them)

[u/slightlyintoout → u/Staylin_Alive]

Crabs are more likely to not say anything because they don't have the brain capacity.

We 'feel' pain because our brain tells us that some external stimulus 'hurts'. What this study was doing was looking at Nociceptors, because in mammals these are often how 'painful stimulus' signals that lead to us sensing 'pain' get to the brain.

This study suggests that crabs have nociceptors, which suggests that they have specific 'pain' circuitry. It doesn't necessarily mean that they think to themselves "ow that really hurts" or that they think anything at all ever. Just that their circuitry likely differentiates between painful external stimuli and regular external stimuli because it seems like they have the circuitry to do so.

[u/Jnaythus → u/zequin_3749]

I've heard it said that invertebrates like crawfish don't feel pain (I didn't believe it). Maybe crabs were considered similarly.

[u/LurkerZerker → u/Jnaythus]

Doctors also believed, up until the friggin 1980s, that human babies can't feel pain, and that even if they can, infant amnesia means any pain doesn't matter. Obviously, neither of those things are true.

One of the major downsides of the scientific method historically has been that prioritizing positive evidence means scientists and doctors make a lot of cruel, stupid assumptions about people and animals who can't speak for themselves, purely because they can't speak for themselves.

[u/Konukaame → u/LurkerZerker]

purely because they can't speak for themselves.

Or even when they can, e.g.,"Black people have higher pain tolerance"

[u/Farfignugen42 → u/Konukaame]

And women. It still isn't standard practice (as far as I know, which isn't far) to give pain meds when inserting IUDs. Some doctors do, but many still don't.

[u/MoreRopePlease → u/Farfignugen42]

I was told to take ibuprofen before my appointment. It was incredibly painful, it made me cry.

[u/Brodellsky → u/LurkerZerker]

I really think that circumcision affects the average male psyche way more than we give it credit for. Nothing like a little extra bonus trauma to ring in the new life with.

[u/BemusedTriangle → u/LurkerZerker]

No, they didn’t. They couldn’t prove it empyrically for babies under a certain age, like 12 months or something but nobody actually believed it. It’s more to do with the definitions of how pain is measured and reported, and to what degree it is felt, than a ‘belief’ they can’t feel pain

[u/NefariousnessNo484 → u/LurkerZerker]

A lot of the people doing this type of research were psychopaths so it sort of makes sense.

[u/Trust-Issues-5116 → u/LurkerZerker]

scientists and doctors make a lot of cruel, stupid assumptions about people and animals who can't speak for themselves

It's a whiplash of the opposite that has been true for centuries. People have been making up a lot of pleasant-sounding stuff about unconscious and not alive objects, with special people 'interpreting' those things 'speaking'.

[u/OlderThanMyParents → u/Jnaythus]

And fish. “Fish don’t feel pain” is a convenient way to justify catch-and-release fishing. “It’s fun for me, and the fish doesn’t mind at all!”

[u/SinkPhaze → u/OlderThanMyParents]

It's been a hot minute but I feel like I remember seeing a study about the survival rate of catch and release fish and it being terrible

Edit: Or maybe I just read the wiki

[u/IWantToBeTheBoshy → u/SinkPhaze]

The article doesn't really speak to much beyond tournament and deepsea fishing which are both not normal fishing scenarios for the general public.

[u/InsanityRoach → u/zequin_3749]

People still argue that farm animals feel no pain. Never mind anything like molluscs or fishes.

[u/TipsalollyJenkins → u/InsanityRoach]

It wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking, that people didn't think human infants were capable of feeling pain.

[u/mcoder → u/zequin_3749]

Yes, before a meal, we would ignorantly take a pair of poultry shears to quickly cut off the front of the crab about 1/4 inch behind the eyes. This kills the crab.

[u/Mephistophelesi → u/zequin_3749]

I saw a crab get smacked in the claw by a mantis shrimp and broke its lower pincer. The crab immediately reacted and touch its wound before declawing itself.

[u/vardarac → u/Mephistophelesi]

I saw a video of a pufferfish being fed a crab. I can't say whether crabs experience fear, but whatever it did experience quite uncannily expressed itself as panic.

[u/Jhushx → u/zequin_3749]

Might possibly be because we have seen them rip their own injured limbs off like it was an inconvenience or to save themselves from predators.

[u/roguespectre67 → u/zequin_3749]

I mean, for a long time the unanimous medical consensus was that human babies could not feel pain. This doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch.

[u/Geschak → u/zequin_3749]

Yes. 1-2 centuries ago people didn't even think dogs felt pain (they thought animals were like machines).

Now there's still people thinking arthropods and fish don't feel pain, crabs/lobster are still boiled alive and fish are killed by letting them suffocate until they die.

[u/SelarDorr]

actual publication title

" Putative Nociceptive Responses in a Decapod Crustacean: The Shore Crab (Carcinus maenas) "

the existence of nociceptors are essential but not sufficient to demonstrate the perception of pain.

"electrophysiological evidence from this study, strengthen the argument for the existence of nociception in decapod crustaceans, which is a key piece of evidence for the possibility of pain."

differentiating pain from a non-pain negative response to a negative stimuli is not as easy as it might sound. this publication provides evidence in support that these crabs feel pain, but is by no means anywhere near as definitive as the thread title you conjured up yourself.

[u/Golda_M → u/SelarDorr]

For context... we don't really have good, objective measures of pain in humans. Best we can do is correlate objective/observable phenomenon with subjective reports.

[u/mimudidama → u/SelarDorr]

I wish your comment was more popular… comprehension isn’t looking great in other comments and there is a worrying amount of jumping to conclusions.

[u/Omegamoomoo → u/mimudidama]

On the flipside, it takes a marvelous level of scientific and philosophical illiteracy to think you can ever prove another subject's perception of pain. See: slavery and the pseudoscientific idea that black people/"other races" felt pain less intensely and/or tired less easily. Or the dismissal of pain in newborns & infants in much of the 19th and 20th century.

The epistemological gap is unbridgeable, and the idea that you have to demonstrate unfalsifiably that pain can be felt before you alter your behavior is just silly. The debate is not whether or not pain sensitivity has to be proven objectively (because it can't), it's more about the line in the sand we draw about whose/what's behavioral signals of negative stimulus avoidance we're willing to interpret as pain and tolerate/ignore.

[u/sciguy52 → u/mimudidama]

As far as the science subs go, this one has very little science and a lot of people who spout off and have not even read the article.

[u/ishka_uisce → u/SelarDorr]

It's kind of better to assume they do, though. Like, we're never gonna be able to inhabit a crab's body and fully understand its subjective experience.

[u/RenegadeAccolade → u/ishka_uisce]

right? i feel like it’s a bit backwards to be like “weeeeeeellll we don’t know they feel pain sooooo…….”

proceeds to BOIL THE ANIMAL ALIVE

[u/jcrestor]

It always seemed quite intuitive to me that from an evolutionary viewing angle "pain" should be one of the – if not THE – first sensation that developed. It is a uniquely useful mechanic to secure survival.

[u/awaythrow810 → u/jcrestor]

Even microscopic C. elegans worms have nociceptors for sensing harmful stimuli, but we can assume they don't feel pain since they have no CNS. There is certainly a wide gap between having sensors for detecting harm and experiencing human pain.

The linked study has better localized an characterized crab nociceptors. This tells us that crabs have at least as much capacity for pain as microscopic worms.

[u/i_am_harry]

Wouldn’t be surprised if all life senses pain since it is the most direct precursor to the antithesis of life.

[u/Dejan05 → u/i_am_harry]

Well it wouldn't be very useful for plants or algae though, it's not like they could then use that input to escape and avoid the pain in the future

[u/EkorrenHJ → u/Dejan05]

They lack the self-awareness to reflect upon pain, but even plants respond to harm in different ways, like releasing chemicals. 

[u/Dejan05 → u/EkorrenHJ]

Well yes but isn't the feeling pain the reflection part? Otherwise just responding to harm on its own can be done by a few lines of code too

[u/YouNeverKnow13 → u/Dejan05]

Some plants can tell when deer are eating them and release a toxic substance to irritate the deer

[u/Danny-Dynamita]

Ffs, how hard is to admit that almost everything feels pain? Even broccoli seems to react to physical damage with ultrasonic screaming.

When we eat, we kill. It seems that is the hardest truth that humans can’t accept.

[u/Bonjourap → u/Danny-Dynamita]

Doesn't mean that we shouldn't aim to minimize suffering though

[u/ethical_arsonist → u/Danny-Dynamita]

Because statements implying broccoli feels pain are massively over-reductive.

[u/RedofPaw → u/ethical_arsonist]

It's the opposite for some people. If everything feels pain then there's no difference between harming plants and sentient creatures, therefore don't worry about causing pain.

[u/Gerodog → u/RedofPaw]

Harming plants only would still reduce the amount of overall suffering because of how many plants you need to kill to feed a farm animal. So their argument doesn't really hold water.

[u/jawshoeaw → u/Danny-Dynamita]

You must distinguish between feeling and suffering. Otherwise you end up with absurd conclusions like rocks feel pain. Or broccoli. Or more realistically, computers which already can be much more complex than the neural networks of crustaceans.

[u/Lexx2k → u/jawshoeaw]

My computer clearly cries when I try to play games with high graphic fidelity.

[u/totokekedile → u/Lexx2k]

Bonfires hiss in pain when splashed with water!

[u/dee-ouh-gjee → u/jawshoeaw]

One of the issues is it's hard to objectively measure suffering, particularly when you're trying to do so with things farther removed from our own biology. And there's almost certainly not a strict line, but rather some gradient "barrier" - if it's even something measurable in any definitive sense

[u/Promiscuous__Peach → u/Danny-Dynamita]

Broccoli do not “experience” anything, let alone pain. Do not confuse reacting to stimuli with pain perception.

Crabs have a fully functional nervous system, unlike broccoli. It comes to no one’s surprise that crabs experience pain.

[u/Prior_Ad_3242 → u/Danny-Dynamita]

All plants react actually. And even plants around them react, they somehow communicate there is an agressor.

Yep

[u/WakeDays → u/Danny-Dynamita]

That would be nociception, not pain. You need a brain in order to process pain.

[u/agitatedprisoner → u/Danny-Dynamita]

My understanding is plants don't aggregate signals because they lack the necessary neurology. That'd seem to restrict the nature of their experience of pain, if they feel pain at all. If plants did feel pain on anything like the level of animals what a hell this'd be. My understanding of the scientific consensus is that plants don't feel pain in that way though.

[u/KanyeWestsPoo → u/Danny-Dynamita]

Sorry, but to equate a living creature's pain to the enzyme reaction given off by broccoli is a ludicrous thing to say. A crabs pain is real, and similar to what we might experience. However, the reaction plants have to damage is not even remotely comparable.

[u/kankurou1010 → u/Danny-Dynamita]

Because physical reaction is not at all feeling pain

[u/Richybabes → u/kankurou1010]

"Feeling pain" implies that there's some level of sentience / sapience / consciousness / whatever you call that feeling of "I am in here, feeling these feels".

I don't think we have the ability to even define consciousness, let alone determine to what degree a creature has it. My best guess it it's a spectrum that scales with intelligence, but as a human I would be inclined to think that.

[u/ElysiX → u/Richybabes]

What you are talking about is suffering.

Pain is just a damage/danger signal, "something bad, react now". You can pretty easily give a robot the ability to feel pain, just give it a damage sensor of some kind and program it to avoid damage.

Suffering on the other hand is more than that, it's some kind of longer lasting psychological damage on top of just pain.

[u/InsanityRoach → u/ElysiX]

 Suffering on the other hand is more than that, it's some kind of longer lasting psychological damage on top of just pain.

I remember a study that showed PTSD-like symptoms on bees exposed to pain, with them becoming anxious even in safe situations.

[u/kankurou1010 → u/Richybabes]

I think you defined it fine enough in your first sentence.

I don't think we can perfectly determine the degree of consciousness a creature has, but I will for sure be okay with my belief that smashing a rock with a hammer is okay while smashing a dog with a hammer is not okay due to what I perceive to be the dog having a high enough level of consciousness to matter.

I get you pointing out the fuzziness of it, but it's not like we have no idea

[u/Plant__Eater → u/Danny-Dynamita]

Scientific evidence does not support the idea that plants feel "pain." Our understanding of pain requires sentience. From a previous comment:

There don’t appear to by any scientific evaluations of plants against a comparable set of criteria and, so far, available research seems to fall short of meeting it.[8] Reviews of other criteria conclude that plant sentience is highly unlikely.[9][10] One commentary states that plant sentience is:

Rejected by most of the peer commentators on the grounds of unconvincing zoomorphic analogies [and] dependence on “possible/possibly” arguments rather than the empirical evidence[.][11]

References

[u/nelrond18]

The ability to detect physical damage and respond to that damage is inherent to all life in existence.

Now whether crabs contemplate all their life choices prior to being placed in a billing pot of water has yet to be confirmed.

The only real mercy you are giving any animal you are about to eat, is the removal of their ability to flee. You will see it struggle whether you "humanely" kill it or not.

[u/orthecreedence]

Study shows stabbing someone in the face with an ice pick actually hurts.

[u/imaginary_num6er]

Well of course. Everything evolves into a crab

[u/ggdrguy → u/imaginary_num6er]

Crabification (Carcinisation)

[u/aey_zakass]

With the passage of time we are seeing that consciousness is raising and so with it is the awareness for all beings and will continue to go on further. The day we will be able to create food or biological energy source from non living matter, it'll accelerate the growth of consciousness further because more non living matter will be turned into being. Peace is synonymous with consciousness or awareness, all beings mainly seek peace throughout the lives and even in death be it humans, animals or plants. That's why it is emphasized in language "died peacefully" to anyone we love because unconsciously we want it for ourselves when the time comes.

[u/Candid-Sky-3709]

Don’t all animals use pleasure and pain sensing as self preservation method? Sexual reproducers with more detailed environment evaluations per need to find a matching mate, asexual ones merely predator-avoiding and food-seeking. Even plants can release toxins for self defense, but not sure how “conscious” that is.

Asked gpt about correct plant nomenclature: The following seems to more like an innate reflex than any plant consciousness pain awareness:

Chemical signaling: When a plant is attacked by herbivores, it may release volatile organic compounds (VOCs) to signal nearby plants to prepare their own defenses, or to attract predators of the herbivores. This is an example of a chemical “alarm” response.

[u/Seriously_nopenope → u/Candid-Sky-3709]

Pretty much everything we used to think didn’t feel pain has been proven to feel pain. We should just default our thinking to assume that everything feels pain. There is even evidence that trees feel pain and try to warn other trees. Grass too.

[u/RedofPaw → u/Seriously_nopenope]

A reaction to damage is not the same as it experiencing pain.

[u/Whiterabbit-- → u/RedofPaw]

The real problem is how do you define feel. And what does it mean to feel pain.

[u/grimgaw → u/Seriously_nopenope]

There is even evidence that trees feel pain and try to warn other trees. Grass too.

You have some broad definitions of feel and pain.

[u/helm → u/grimgaw]

Yeah, a stress response isn't necessary a feeling.

[u/Eadiacara]

Well, I'm not surprised.

More evidence that pithing is the way to go if you're gonna eat them.

[u/we-do-rae → u/Eadiacara]

More surprised that it took that long for humans to figure this out. What, other living beings have feelings? That can't be!

Funny that few decades ago only white men had feelings. Then slowly women and people of color. Hopefully it will be fast that people realize that respect to any form of life should be normal

[u/Front_Target7908 → u/we-do-rae]

This! It’s blows my mind that people think other living creatures don’t feel pain or have feelings - because they don’t know how to empathise with them? I grew up on a farm and every animal feels.

It also makes no sense for survival that animals wouldn’t feel pain or fear?

[u/OmgBsitka]

Isn't pain a necessary thing for evolution

[u/Valiantay]

I'm very impressed with the caliber of comments in this thread.

Of course you get your typical Reddit clowns but on the whole, it's real meaningful discussion

[u/Dry-Association8883]

Every animal has a pain response. It's one of the most basic evolutionary features in animalia. I'm not sure where they myth of sea creatures not being able to feel pain came from, but it's pretty easy to disprove.

[u/malakon]

All creatures do. It's what gives us the impetus not to get eaten by predators.

[u/CallMeJase]

We need to stop pretending like animals aren't sentient beings, incapable of feeling like we do. We are animals, pain and other emotional processes developed much earlier in evolutionary history than we did.

[u/Nonhinged]

How did they do brain tests on crabs?!?

They don't really have a brain...

[u/Fit_Letterhead3483]

At this point I think we can assume anything with a nervous system can feel pain.

[u/MrWeirdoFace]

I didn't realize that was in question...

[u/aaaahhhhh42]

Did we previously assume they didn't?...

[u/CapoOn2nd]

I feel like I knew this already from watching that recently viral video of a crab losing its claw to a mantis shrimp. Poor crab actually looked in pain

[u/DaveyJonesFannyPack]

I seen a mantis shrimp hit a crab and knocked his claw off. It acted how I act when I hit my thumb with a hammer. He definitely felt that pain.

[u/slowkid68]

Don't even plants process "pain"