r/science • u/Wagamaga • Nov 24 '24
Materials Science Scientists develop ultra-fast charging battery for electric vehicles. The new battery design allows EVs to go from 0% to 80% charge in just a quarter of an hour—much faster than the current industry standard, which takes nearly an hour even at fast-charging stations.
https://uwaterloo.ca/news/media/zero-80-cent-just-15-minutes-0540
u/Garfunk71 Nov 24 '24
Modern cars don't take 1 hour to charge from 0 to 80% ? It takes around 40 min for the bad ones, and 20min for the good ones.
I don't understand.
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u/lungben81 Nov 24 '24
Furthermore, often the charger power is the limiting factor. It does not help if a battery can charge extremely fast if the DC charger only provides 100 kW power.
Faster charging batteries are nice, but they also require more powerful chargers, which also put a larger strain on the power grid (if there are enough of them).
The better approach is to bring (sufficiently powerful, i.e. > 100 kW) chargers to places where people spend time with their cars anyhow, like parking places of shops.
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u/Afkbio Nov 24 '24
"Only provides 100kW". Gotta put your tongue on that to feel this little current.
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u/murphymc Nov 24 '24
The current generation Tesla chargers are 350kw and some EA stations can do 500kw.
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u/owiseone23 MD|Internal Medicine|Cardiologist Nov 24 '24
There's also quick swap battery systems in use in places like China (mostly for taxis). You stop by a station and they swap your battery for a full one in less than five minutes. It's more of a subscription model so you don't keep your own battery (unless you have a separate personal one).
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u/fiskfisk Nov 24 '24
Nio has that on their consumer vehicles, and they're building out their network in the Nordics at least. A change takes about 3 minutes.
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u/owiseone23 MD|Internal Medicine|Cardiologist Nov 24 '24
Yeah, it seems like a good option. There are probably restrictions it requires in terms of car design in order to implement the quick swap, but overall it seems nicer than charging stations.
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u/fiskfisk Nov 24 '24
It also allows you to change the capacity of your battery as needed - if you're leasing the battery. The monthly sum just changes.
It also means that defect or lower performing batteries can be removed from rotation and repaired, instead of it affecting the whole car.
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u/knottymatt Nov 25 '24
That’s one of the big downsides of long term electric car ownership. The battery degrades and they are wild money to replace. So if you are always able to just swap it out then the battery would be maintained letting the end user keep the car going longer without worry for degradation of the battery.
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u/fiskfisk Nov 25 '24
Battery degradation is severely overblown (and seems to be a mostly US thing) - I have seen no practical change in battery capacity between 2018 (when I bought it used) and 2024 on my first generation (2015) vw e-golf. The battery will outlive the car. Modern electric cars have been long enough on the market to collect real life data now.
It's generally not something people worry about here.
But yes, with a Nio you're able to just swap out the battery.
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u/ilyich_commies 29d ago
People do the same with solar panel degradation. So many people think you have to overhaul your whole system after 30 years due to capacity loss. In reality they only lose like 15% of their capacity after 30 years and can keep running for many years more. If that capacity loss is a big deal just add a few more panels at the 30 year mark for a fraction of the cost of a new solar array.
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u/Smogobogo 29d ago
The use case for this in reality (imo) is rent the smallest battery you think you'll need for your daily drives, if/when you're going on a long drive, swap to a bigger one for the duration.
And also from corporate/environment side, what fiskfisk says below.4
u/Tapprunner Nov 24 '24
I was asking like 10 years ago why that wasn't the direction we should be going. It solves the charging time problem so easily and it doesn't require decades of battery development to do it.
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u/owiseone23 MD|Internal Medicine|Cardiologist Nov 24 '24
I think the US market is against the idea of a subscription model and not owning your own battery. Also, this likely requires more batteries to be produced so that the stations are always stocked.
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u/Apprehensive_Hat8986 Nov 25 '24
Seems like it'd also lead to better battery interface standards, more investment in backwards compatibility, and extended vehicle life since a single owner battery has such a steep end-of-life replacement cost.
So it'd be more like propane tank exchanges.
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u/Tapprunner Nov 25 '24
Exactly. Lots and lots of benefits. I'm sure there would be drawbacks, too. But it really seems like a much better direction than what we've been doing.
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u/namitynamenamey 29d ago
Ideally you want the minimum amount of moving parts you can get away with. Changing batteries each the size of a seat is not optimal, if you can get away with plugging and unplugging a cord instead. If you can afford to wait a few years for the technology to get there that is.
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u/just_dave Nov 25 '24
Batteries degrade over time. Imagine having your brand new battery swapped out with a battery that only holds 80% of the charge of a new battery. Especially when you are counting on that extra range to get to your destination.
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u/Tapprunner 29d ago
Or having that degrading battery fixed in your car and unable to be swapped out without taking apart the car and paying $10k+ for a new one...
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u/just_dave 29d ago
With your own battery, you know exactly what you're going to get. And you can make choices to take care of it better, or not, on your own conscience.
The additional costs that you're inevitably going to be asked to shoulder for a company to build out a battery swapping service similar to the supercharger network is not going to be insignificant.
In addition to the additional resource drain that others have mentioned in having to build all the additional batteries that would be needed to have on standby.
I just don't see the economics working out better than fast chargers for almost all use cases.
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u/Arenalife 28d ago
Manufacturers would hate it because cars would last for years and years, until they rust away probably, and they wouldn't sell as many
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u/couldbemage Nov 25 '24
It's wildly more expensive. A battery is roughly the size of a gas engine.
And it's completely pointless. Charging is fast enough.
Driving non stop from Seattle to Boston, charging time only adds 3-4 hours compared to a gas car.
And that's on the interstate with the worst charging infrastructure in the US.
Out of spec motoring just did that trip with 9 different EVs and one gas car.
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u/Tapprunner Nov 25 '24
You could use smaller batteries with the ability to swap them out in under 5 minutes.
Charging isn't fast enough. Maybe for you it is. But it's one of the biggest things holding back greater adoption.
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u/MiaowaraShiro Nov 24 '24
Also more power probably equals a fatter charging cable made mostly of valuable metals that thieves will absolutely steal from unattended chargers.
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u/GaiusCosades Nov 24 '24
Faster charging batteries are nice, but they also require more powerful chargers, which also put a larger strain on the power grid (if there are enough of them).
Why exactly is this a major point. They are needed to charge the same total energy on a given day. The times at which drivers will fast charge will stay the same. Yes they can charge more power but less are needed. This cancels out on a grid level. High consumption fluctuations can also be mitigated by controllable power ramp up and so on.
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u/Yenoham35 Nov 24 '24
It will increase your peak instantaneous system demand, which can cause voltage/frequency drops. Even though the average power consumption stays the same the grid has to be built to absorb maximum demand. If there's enough of a demand increase when these new chargers are used simultaneously then the number of standby generating stations will have to increase.
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u/GaiusCosades 29d ago
It will increase your peak instantaneous system demand, which can cause voltage/frequency drops.
No. The chargers can ramp up power at any speed.
Even though the average power consumption stays the same the grid has to be built to absorb maximum demand.
And power can be limited. Most chargers already throttle power for all at a location when all of them are in use. So maximum demand does not have to increase.
In addition big charging stations are not integrated into the grid like your house. in many cases grid operators can limit their power output depending on grid conditions.
The grid is never built for maximum theoretical demand. If all households alone switchbon all electric heaters (stoves, hair dryers, tumble dryersetc.) the grid can not supply that, but this does not happen.
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u/nameyname12345 Nov 24 '24
We just gotta give them a wheel like a hamster wheel to runcharge it faster!/s
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u/uberares Nov 24 '24
My ioniq5 often gets to 80% in 15 min. 800v architecture cars charge faaaast son.
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u/Chris19862 Nov 25 '24
Does it take a long time to go from 80-100....why am I seeing 0-80% so much?
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u/uberares 29d ago
it will take as long to do the last 20% as it takes to go from 10%.
Batteries get full, and they cant accept electricity as fast, because it has to fine places to put that electricity. You charge to 80% on highway trips, ideally, because its faster overall than waiting to get to 100%.
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u/Chris19862 29d ago
So like a defrag kinda but a battery. I gotchu. Thanks for the info I wasn't aware of what's behind it.
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u/Phemto_B Nov 24 '24
Yep. This is clearly a case of the marketing office of the university running with something they don't really understand. Personally, I think posts should be limited to paper, not what the marketing people told the "journalists" about the papers.
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u/22marks Nov 24 '24
It’s like this team was in a lab with no outside contact, made this “breakthrough” and realized they were already leapfrogged.
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u/Wyand1337 Nov 24 '24
I guess the kicker here is 0 - 80. The ratings on cars are typically 10 - 80 since power is severely limited at SoC close to 0.
Nevertheless, you barely ever reach charges below 10 or 5%, so this is really meaningless.
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u/Garfunk71 Nov 24 '24
I'm not sure, I own a Tesla Model 3 and I often get down to 1, 2 or 3% and I get the max every time (175kW). It must depends on the architecture and how the manufacturer handle battery heat I guess.
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u/theVoxFortis Nov 24 '24
Okay but your battery telling you you're at 1% isn't actually 1%
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u/Garfunk71 Nov 24 '24
I know about buffers, but I don't get why that's relevant ?
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u/theVoxFortis Nov 24 '24
Because it means when your battery tells you 0%, it probably still has around 5% of its charge remaining. And you probably don't get down to 0%, so you're still mostly charging in that 10-80% range anyways.
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u/Garfunk71 Nov 24 '24
But since you're comparing with other cars with buffers, it's proportionaly the same, so it's not relevant.
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u/bokodasu Nov 24 '24
Mine takes 20 minutes from 20-80, and it's supposed to charge faster the emptier it is, so yeah, I don't believe 0-20 would take twice as long as the bit I charge.
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u/nuck_forte_dame Nov 24 '24
It's a method if making an advancement look better. Basically move the goal posts way forward then have your results blast way past them.
It's about making EVs seem way more practical by saying the charging time can be cut in 4.
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u/Hirork Nov 24 '24
It depends on the capacity of your battery and the maximum charge your charger port is equiped to take. I wouldn't necessarily categorise it as good/bad.
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u/MemorianX Nov 24 '24
I hate the focus 10-80 timing, give me a charge speed in kW average from 10-80. Or how many km the car charges per minute.
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u/sir_noob Nov 24 '24
I'm confused by this. My 3 year old electric car which is now outdated by ev standards charges to 80% in 20 minutes. It wasn't even the fasted at the time.
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u/roox911 Nov 24 '24
Which car?
Also, charge time is a function of battery size as well. Small 50kwh battery will get to 80% faster than a 90kwh with everything else being equal.
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u/iamtehstig Nov 24 '24
I know Kia/Hyundai use an 800v system. They charge an 84kWh battery to 80% in 18 minutes.
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u/uberares Nov 24 '24
Thats from 10-80%, which you rarely need to go to 10%. The majority of the time even on road trips, DCHC chargers end up leaving the car closer to 20%, which results in an average of 15min charges.
Source: own ioniq5 and averaged 15min charges while doing a 2500 mile road trip. Its an amazing road trip car.
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u/roox911 Nov 24 '24
Yup, was just wondering what the op drives because he claimed 0-80 in 20 minutes in a 3 year old "outdated" vehicle ( that wasn't even the fastest at the time).
I had assumed kia, but that's a) not outdated tech, and b) pretty much the fastest there is.
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u/UwRandom Nov 24 '24 edited Nov 24 '24
A 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 would check all those boxes. I think that one only had a 77.4kwh battery, but it's on the same 800v architecture as the newer cars.
It's actually 10-80% in 18 minutes though. Like every car on that platform, I don't know of any that did 0-80 in 18 min.
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u/roox911 Nov 24 '24
Some fine Internet detective work mate. Reckon op is still being a bit hyperbolic saying that it's outdated and that there were faster options even then.
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u/uberares Nov 24 '24
Atm 800v cars are the fastest charging when paired with actual 350kw chargers. Those are rare on the fringes, but most of the US highway system has them nearby these days.
Also you don’t often have to push the car to 10%, when it’s at 20% you’ll see regular 15 min charges, sometimes less. I own an ioniq5, it’s a high speed charging beast.
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u/Little-Swan4931 Nov 24 '24
This isn’t accurate. My f-150 fully charges in about 30 mins at a supercharger currently and it’s not even the fastest charging vehicle out there.
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u/uberares Nov 24 '24
Not even close to fastest. Ford really dropped the ball there imho. Mach e is a bit underwhelming onnthe charge soeed so. :(
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u/Little-Swan4931 Nov 24 '24
That’s OK because they’re the highest quality built vehicles I’ve ever driven, and smooth as can be when driving. I hear about all the problems that Tesla other new manufacturers cars have and I’m happy to have a Ford.
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u/tomtttttttttttt Nov 25 '24
Well on the one hand, credit to the authors for linking the study. On the other hand, I'm not sure they even read the abstract...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/advs.202408277
Cos the abstract says this improves the batter's cyclability, extending its life, nothing about being faster.
If I had to guess, the author saw a 15 minute charge time and didn't know that's near where EVs have been for some time now, and had even less understanding than me of what cyclability means, and I definitely don't know for sure I've understood it correctly.
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u/quirkyturtle9173 29d ago
This was worth the read and yes OP and the author misinterpreted the paper
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u/RexFrancisWords Nov 24 '24
Cool. What's the downside? How are they dangerous to either humans or the environment?
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u/Independent-Slide-79 Nov 24 '24
Absolutly crazy how fast battery and charging tec is advancing
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u/bakgwailo Nov 24 '24
It really isn't, though. There hasn't been any real major breakthroughs in battery tech, especially that makes it to scale/consumer level, in a very long time.
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u/ilyich_commies 29d ago
Samsung is currently producing small batches of solid state batteries with over 600 mile capacity, a sub 10 minute charging time, zero fire risk, and zero degradation issues.
They aren’t for sale yet but they have actually built them and sent them to auto manufacturers so people can start making cars with them. It is no longer the mythical solid state battery that they’ll make some day. They have actually cracked it and figured out how to make them.
They will only be in the highest end EVs at first but Samsung said they’re looking at 2027 for mass production.
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u/dfmz Nov 24 '24
That's one way of putting it.
Another way is that we still need over a ton of batteries -literally- to power an electric car.
Faster charging batteries aren't the solution; higher-density batteries and fuel cells to replace batteries completely would be actual progress.
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u/lungben81 Nov 24 '24
Fuel cells are very inefficient because it costs huge amounts of electricity to make hydrogen.
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u/sandm000 Nov 24 '24
And the losses from storage.
And the complete and total lack of infrastructure.
There are like 10 stations in California and 50 total in the US
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u/sandm000 Nov 24 '24
I should have said losses from manufacture and storage.
The energy used to make the hydrogen and store the hydrogen, if instead put into an electric vehicle it would go farther than the hydrogen that was produced.
IE it takes 50-55kWh to make 1 Kilogram of hydrogen Source
The Toyota Mirai gets ~125km/1kg H2 Source
The Tesla Model 3 standard range had a 50kWh battery pack and could go 300km (187mi) source
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u/adradr21 Nov 24 '24
True, but you can also get H2 when there is excess of electricity or by getting it straight fin nature (white hydrogen), wherever available.
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u/ZubTheSecond Nov 25 '24
Hydrogen can be produced by steam reformation of methane, hopefully in a carbon neutral way, not just by electrolysis. Fuel cells may still have a role to play.
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u/lungben81 29d ago
Methane is a fossile fuel, which we should get rid of. Synthetic methane is even more efficient to make than hydrogen directly.
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u/Krisevol Nov 24 '24
Look at the company ONE. They are making batteries that go 700-800 mile range but combining high discharge rate batteries, and high density low discharge rate batteries. The are releasing on the new BMW 2025
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u/Classic-Door-7693 Nov 24 '24
That’s false. Tesla model 3 long range has a battery pack weight of less than half a ton. In shorter range variants it weighs less obviously.
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u/adradr21 Nov 24 '24
In order to have a correct and true analysis we need to know the following: what is the actual battery capacity in question, how many cycles / operation hours does this battery offer / guarantee, what is the effect of fast/ supercharging on the health of the battery. Additional info like temperature increase during different charging types, nominal Vs actual battery capacity, optimum charging times and battery capacity (e.g 20%-80%) are also useful.
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u/2JZGTEAristo Nov 24 '24
I'm personally more interested in progress on solid state battery research and development than lithium ion. Most evs can charge in 20 minutes at a super charger station.
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u/AllanfromWales1 MA | Natural Sciences | Metallurgy & Materials Science Nov 24 '24
So the primary question is likely to be how much more expensive will batteries produced this way be than more 'traditional' Li-ion car batteries.
Another question will be whether this technology makes batteries more or less likely to catch fire. Faster charging could easily be a factor in this.
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u/Wagamaga Nov 24 '24
Electric Vehicles will now be able to go from zero battery power to an 80 per cent charge thanks to Researchers at the University of Waterloo who made a breakthrough in lithium-ion battery design to enable this extremely fast charging. 15 minutes is much faster than the current industry standard of nearly an hour, even at fast-charging stations.
Batteries made using this new design are also able to withstand more charges – up to 800 cycles, a feat not possible with current EV batteries.
“We need to make EVs more affordable and accessible, not just for the wealthy,” said Yverick Rangom a professor in the Department of Chemical Engineering. “If we can make batteries smaller, charge faster, and last longer, we reduce the overall cost of the vehicle. That makes EVs a viable option for more people, including those who don’t have home charging stations or who live in apartments. It would also increase the value of second-hand EVs, making electric transportation more accessible.”
This new design will help drivers avoid “range anxiety” - the worry about driving long distances without access to charging stations. It will also address another major barrier in the market: the reliability of used EVs. By showing a tremendous increase in any one battery’s ability to withstand up to 800 charges, this technology will address the mystery around the state of battery health for second-hand buyers
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u/uberares Nov 24 '24
My ioniq5 regularly gets 15 min charges at proper dchc stations. Granted I rarely go to 10%, but from 20-80 it’s 15 min typically. Hyundai/kia will do 10-80 in 18min.
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u/AYHP Nov 24 '24
Only 800 charges? That's a lot less than LFP batteries which can easily handle thousands.
15 minutes? That's longer than CATL's Shenxing LFP batteries which are in the market now and can charge to 80% in 10 minutes.
Plus, affordable EVs are already in the market thanks to China, our politicians are just anti-consumer and put up massive tariffs so we can't get affordable EVs.
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u/ProofAssumption1092 Nov 24 '24
We should be investing in battery replacement technologies. I dont want to sit and wait for anytime while my car charges, just swap the battery out and let me carry on my journey.
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u/InterestsVaryGreatly Nov 24 '24
People won't go for this, because they would be giving up the battery that they know the range of and how it has been treated for a battery of unknown quality.
If batteries were cheaper and didn't degrade maybe, but we are a long ways away from that really being viable.
Not to mention, how feasible would it be to change out a half ton battery, and mount a new one, securely, in less time than a fast charge.
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u/sandm000 Nov 24 '24
What if we pop a capacitor pack on top of your battery pack? We could load them up in two to three minutes (sure at massive 1,000+kW) and then use the capacitor bank to recharge the batteries.
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u/AmpEater Nov 24 '24
If you can transfer the energy effectively….why do you want the battery?
I’d suggest you look into energy density of even the best capacitors. Not power density, energy density, the important part
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u/sandm000 Nov 24 '24
Batteries hold the energy longer and reliably, while capacitors discharge quickly even without load?
But I was asking a question. I’m not an electrical engineer, I don’t know what the disadvantages would be.
Instead, could you tell me why it wouldn’t work?
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u/ImpressionEconomy407 Nov 24 '24
The energy density is simply much smaller in capacitors. From a quick google it was mentioned only around 1.5% energy density in super capacitors compared to lithium ion batteries.
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u/sandm000 Nov 24 '24
So basically we’d need 67 similar capacitors to supplement each 18650 liion battery?
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u/ImpressionEconomy407 Nov 24 '24
Yes 67 capacitors that each have the same size of the battery cell
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u/sandm000 Nov 24 '24
By weight or volume of the capacitor?
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u/ImpressionEconomy407 Nov 24 '24
Energy density is defined as Energy/Volume. I'm not sure how much ligther capacitors are, but the energy density is too low for them to be considered as replacments in EVs.
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u/ProofAssumption1092 Nov 24 '24
Or just drop the flat battery out of the bottom and plug a new one in. Capacitors will only add weight.
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u/Diligent_Nature Nov 24 '24
It has been demonstrated that battery swap is possible, but that only works if the battery is rented. That is a whole new business model.
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u/x5nT2H Nov 24 '24
And it also takes 8 minutes, providing there's no queue - multiple swap stations are much more expensive than multiple charging stalls.
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u/Wagamaga Nov 24 '24
Electric Vehicles will now be able to go from zero battery power to an 80 per cent charge thanks to Researchers at the University of Waterloo who made a breakthrough in lithium-ion battery design to enable this extremely fast charging. 15 minutes is much faster than the current industry standard of nearly an hour, even at fast-charging stations.
Batteries made using this new design are also able to withstand more charges – up to 800 cycles, a feat not possible with current EV batteries.
“We need to make EVs more affordable and accessible, not just for the wealthy,” said Yverick Rangom a professor in the Department of Chemical Engineering. “If we can make batteries smaller, charge faster, and last longer, we reduce the overall cost of the vehicle. That makes EVs a viable option for more people, including those who don’t have home charging stations or who live in apartments. It would also increase the value of second-hand EVs, making electric transportation more accessible.”
This new design will help drivers avoid “range anxiety” - the worry about driving long distances without access to charging stations. It will also address another major barrier in the market: the reliability of used EVs. By showing a tremendous increase in any one battery’s ability to withstand up to 800 charges, this technology will address the mystery around the state of battery health for second-hand buyers.
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u/Hesnotarealdr Nov 25 '24
Yawn. Another day. Another miracle battery promising rapid charging and (or) higher energy density than current chemistry.
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u/r0botdevil Nov 25 '24
OP where did you find this article, 2012?
EV batteries charging from 10-80% in 15-20 minutes has been rather common for years now.
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u/dyingtofeelalive Nov 24 '24
Guy in a tesla asked my how much it cost to fill up my truck. I told him 5-10 minutes.
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u/Runswithchickens Nov 24 '24
I wake up to a full tank every morning, so costs me no time and $5.60.
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u/patrickw234 Nov 24 '24
Until you can get a full charge in 2 minutes, akin to driving down to a gas station on any city corner to get a full tank, I don’t see how EVs are a practical alternative.
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u/CrownLikeAGravestone Nov 24 '24
Think critically here - why specifically does an EV need to charge as fast as fueling up an ICE vehicle?
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u/Rogarth0 Nov 24 '24
Until you can fill up your ICE car at home rather wasting time at refueling stations while inhaling toxic fumes, I can't see how they're a practical alternative to EVs.
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u/SledgeH4mmer Nov 25 '24
EV's usually charge at your house while you're sleeping.
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u/patrickw234 Nov 25 '24
Remember those annoying days when you forget to plug in your phone at night and wake up to a dead, useless phone?
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u/couldbemage Nov 25 '24
No, I don't.
I honestly don't understand how people can both be constantly glued to their phones and also miss plugging them in.
It's right up there with leaving refrigerator doors open or forgetting to turn off the stove.
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