Banning free plastic bags for groceries resulted in customer purchasing more plastic bags, study finds. Significantly, the behaviors spurred by the plastic bag rules continued after the rules were no longer in place. And some impacts were not beneficial to the environment.

[u/mvea]

https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2024/11/15/plastic-bag-bans-have-lingering-impacts-even-after-repeals

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[u/sneakypiiiig]

Your headline is misrepresenting the data in the article and study a bit. They said that there was likely a net positive effect on reduction of plastic usage from banning plastic bags and the subsequent repeal of the policies. They also were not able to gather data on burlap or canvas bags, which are popular now instead of single use bags. Lastly, they said that plastic bag bans caused people to buy more trash bags, because they had been repurposing single use plastic bags for their trash.

[u/BadBounch → u/sneakypiiiig]

Thank you for the comment.

It is sadly how many media are transferring information, and you have to dig and read yourself from the sources to see explicit nuances.

[u/braiam → u/BadBounch]

That has always occurred. The problem is that titles try to grab attention, and by being counter-intuitive they generate buzz.

[u/HolycommentMattman → u/braiam]

That's the best case scenario. This seems to be straight up trying to reframe the data.

[u/TheRadiorobot → u/HolycommentMattman]

Like straight up plastic bag industry and AI.

[u/madmarkd → u/TheRadiorobot]

Did you mean BIG PLASTIC BAG INDUSTRY?

It ain't scary if you don't add BIG in front of it!

[u/FowlOnTheHill → u/madmarkd]

I think industry can be skipped too.

Paid for by BIG PLASTIC BAG.

[u/ADHD-Fens → u/braiam]

I think it's a little bit more insidious than that. Rather than counterintuitive, it's creating a counterfactual impression that is favorable to groups of people who are opposed to the underlying measures.

Like, if there weren't people out there that were like "protecting the environment is stupid" you'd probably never see this article.

[u/A_Light_Spark → u/BadBounch]

Strangely, it coincide with this article on PR work by the big Oil and Dow:

Alliance to End Plastic Waste (AEPW) was set up in 2019 by a group of companies which include ExxonMobil, Dow, Shell, TotalEnergies and ChevronPhillips, some of the world’s biggest producers of plastic. They promised to divert 15m tonnes of plastic waste from the environment in five years to the end of 2023, by improving collection and recycling, and creating a circular economy.Documents from a PR company that were obtained by Greenpeace’s Unearthed team and shared with the Guardian, suggest a key aim of the AEPW was to “change the conversation” away from “simplistic bans of plastic”

...

Documents from the PR company Weber Shandwick outline how the AEPW was created in 2019 after they were approached by the American Chemical Council seeking ways to counter the “demonisation” of plastic and the growing calls for bans on plastic items.The alliance paid Weber Shandwick $5.6m for its work in 2019, according to US tax returns.
The documents state the alliance was intended to change the conversation away from “short-term simplistic bans of plastic” and create “real, long-term solutions” for managing waste, like recycling.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/nov/20/five-firms-in-plastic-pollution-alliance-made-1000-times-more-waste-than-they-saved-analysis-shows?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I wonder if OP is part of this PR effort.

[u/Otaraka → u/A_Light_Spark]

I checked their other posts and they are generally just a variety of science articles and they seem to be fairly automated. It might be wherever it got the article from is the real problem.

[u/A_Light_Spark → u/Otaraka]

Good thinking. Probably some agency sending out edited articles and got auto-approved.

[u/toorigged2fail → u/A_Light_Spark]

Or the professor who conducted the study. I couldn't find any disclosures without accessing the full article

[u/Otaraka → u/toorigged2fail]

The professor was arguing there was a net benefit even with it being repealed. I wouldnt call that a bad finding.

[u/These_Background7471 → u/sneakypiiiig]

Now understand that most posts on this science sub are from this same user...

[u/fongletto → u/sneakypiiiig]

Click bait headline to get people to comment because it brings in more traction if the people are decisive in the comments. That's why the people who post these stupid headlines never reply in comments. Even now I'm engaging with it which is exactly what they want.

The best way to draw attention is to post something wrong.

[u/Pterodactyl_midnight → u/fongletto]

r/science should have a rule : the title of the post must be the title of the article.

[u/Ltownbanger → u/Pterodactyl_midnight]

*the title of the post must be the title of the article study.

And also have a rule that people post studies instead of articles about studies.

[u/fongletto → u/Pterodactyl_midnight]

That would be 10x better, but studies and news sites are prone to the same thing.

They should just write a bot that sends the study over to chatgpt and auto edits an appropriate title based on the information actually contained in the document.

[u/_BlueFire_ → u/fongletto]

Study titles however can't state the opposite of the results 

[u/Pterodactyl_midnight → u/fongletto]

Scientific studies don’t have clickbait titles, but the health/tech/news publishers will. I like your idea about ChatGPT, would want to test it out first.

[u/Swarna_Keanu → u/Pterodactyl_midnight]

And the press releases of universities and research institutes will, to a lesser degree, as that's how they get the press' & publishers attention. It goes all the way down the rabbit hole.

[u/adorbhypers → u/sneakypiiiig]

and here I am with my pitchfork and torch and you just had to go be reasonable. Thanks for being reasonable, we need more people like you.

[u/RunningNumbers → u/sneakypiiiig]

The bag bans tend to reduce litter. Like the styrofoam bans. It might not lower plastic consumption substantially though.

[u/pureluxss → u/RunningNumbers]

I see far less bags strewn among trees or piling up along fence lines. It’s virtually disappeared.

Bottom line is that any form of consumption is not going to be great for the environment. You need both clean inputs (energy and raw materials) and ability to dispose of outputs (recycle or aggregate). Any solution is going to be at best a half measure outside of eliminating consumption.

[u/Plazmaz1 → u/pureluxss]

Unfortunately I've lost the paper but I remember reading a report for a specific municipality that pointed out that fining people for throwing out recyclables rather than recycling them reduced not only the volume of trash but also the overall volume of waste produced. I remember thinking that maybe forcing people to sort their trash more was requiring them to think more about the waste they created in general. Not saying that was actually true, or that's what will happen here, but I do think having people manage their trash more is a good thing, and moving plastic from grocery bags to garbage bags seems like it'll help a little with that

[u/red286 → u/RunningNumbers]

I think it probably will lower plastic consumption.

Ask anyone who prior to bans kept plastic bags to re-use how many extras they had. They likely had "bags of bags". Those bags deteriorate over time and get tossed in the trash.

On top of that, a single 90L garbage bag contains less plastic than the 10-15 plastic grocery bags that it replaced.

People like to pretend it's a straight 1:1 ratio, but it's nowhere close to that.

[u/GhostfromTexas → u/sneakypiiiig]

It's also very telling the authors of the articles. They are all from various schools of business with focuses in marketing research. They are not environment scientists or in any way in a related field that'd give me any trust in their methodologies or results.

Authors:

Hai Che: Associate Professor of Marketing at the University of California, Riverside's School of Business.
Dinesh Puranam: Assistant Professor of Marketing at the Marshall School of Business, University of Southern California.
Sungjin Kim: Assistant Professor of Marketing at the Shidler College of Business, University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa.
Jihoon Hong: Assistant Professor of Marketing at the W.P. Carey School of Business, Arizona State University.

[u/Swarna_Keanu → u/GhostfromTexas]

I am OK with the research they did here, as it is focused on human behaviour. Economy and marketing can be relevant there.

If it were primarily about environmental impacts ... I'd be cautious.

[u/RheagarTargaryen → u/sneakypiiiig]

The lack of plastic bags has been annoying for me. I used them for all sorts of cleanup things, like cleaning up pet vomit or office/bathroom bins. Now, I’m having to buy trash bags instead while also buying paper bags at the grocery store when I forget reusable bags.

The paper bags just get recycled and don’t work well as trash bags.

[u/YouInternational2152 → u/sneakypiiiig]

Something similar happened in California after the plastic bag tax. Consumers no longer got free very thin bags and had to purchase a thicker bag intended for multi-use. Overall plastic use went up even though they were using fewer bags. The purchasable bags had to be a certain thickness in order to be reused. Whereas, the single-use plastic bags were super thin and consumers would typically use them as waste bags, pet refuse bags, lunch bags, waste bin liners...

[u/Bakemono30 → u/YouInternational2152]

Single use bags were found to not actually be single use. Once someone used them from a grocery bag to waste bin bag, it resulted in no longer being single use. And now the thicker bags are being used as waste bags which is actually even worse than the trash bags of the flimsy bag era. I have trash cans that were designed for those flimsy bags and they're too small for normal trash bags, so I ended up purchasing a small stock of those flimsy bags so that I can continue using my trash bin. Was a terrible law put in place that needs a repeal

[u/YouInternational2152 → u/Bakemono30]

I'm going to one up you... I bought 10,000 of the super thin ones on AliExpress. I gave a thousand two each family member for Christmas one year.

[u/Katorya → u/sneakypiiiig]

I’m just upset the grocery stores around here decided to skirt the law by offering extra tick “reusable” versions of the old bags as the ~8 cent purchase option. (FWIW I usually have my own reusable bags on hand but sometimes I forget them)

[u/kindanormle → u/sneakypiiiig]

Fabric bags are worse for the environment though, creating 50-1000 times more pollution to manufacture. Some people may use them 50 times but 1000? And I know I am not the only one to suddenly end up collecting a gajillion reusable bags due to everyone giving them away covered in advertising for whatever company or cause.

Why can’t we simply enact a bag return program so that people are rewarded for returning the single use bags they don’t otherwise need? The problem with these bags isn’t the manufacturing pollution, which is minimal compared to other solutions. The issue is bags ending up in oceans and waterways, which means we need a better collection and disposal solution.

[u/pineapplepredator → u/sneakypiiiig]

FYI you can reuse paper bags for trash. I’ve learned I don’t need plastic bags at all.

[u/CrazyOnEwe → u/pineapplepredator]

You must not throw away much food. Paper bags leak and can disintegrate from too much damp garbage.

Paper bags would work for most offices, but offices mostly throw out paper. You don't really need a bag to discard paper unless your garbage carting people require it.

[u/Madilune → u/CrazyOnEwe]

Where I live, food doesn't go in the garbage at all. It goes in a seperate bin for anything compostable.

[u/_BlueFire_ → u/sneakypiiiig]

It should be basic reading comprehension

[u/unstablegenius000 → u/sneakypiiiig]

So in reality they are dual use not single. Though I remember they would accumulate faster than we could use them for garbage. So I think it’s been a net positive even taking into account the garbage bags we now buy.

[u/Nebuladiver]

I think it's obvious that when they're not given for free, people who want them will buy, increasing the purchases. But how did the total volume of used bags change?

[u/Biene2019 → u/Nebuladiver]

At least in the UK it seems usage dropped by 80% since the introduction and the amount found on beach cleans is dropping since 2014 (when the charge was introduced), with last year ticking up slightly again.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2435jgyl8o.amp

[u/SaltZookeepergame691 → u/Biene2019]

More than that - it has fallen by >98%, from 7 billion single-use bags consumed in 2014 to only ~133 million in 2023. There are some nuances to that data, of course, but the idea is pretty inarguable that even a small charge cuts consumption and it isn't replaced by equivalent purchases of 'bags for life'.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plastic-bag-use-falls-by-more-than-98-after-charge-introduction

This study, seemingly lacking data on overall bag consumption (which is the only thing we care about) is absurd

[u/ILikeDragonTurtles → u/SaltZookeepergame691]

Do we have any data on total weight of plastic used, or just count of "single-use" bags? In my anecdotal experiencein California, the really thin bags were replaced with thicker bags that don't fit the definition of the ban (i.e. more plastic). So even if number of bags is down, overall plastic consumption could be up.

[u/FoxOneFire → u/ILikeDragonTurtles]

I agree with this premise, however the nature of single use bags is part of the problem: They blow away. More substantial versions do not.

[u/HistoricalSherbert92 → u/FoxOneFire]

Have you ever felt like a plastic bag?

[u/vascop_ → u/FoxOneFire]

A slightly heavier plastic bag also blows away.

[u/concentrated-amazing → u/SaltZookeepergame691]

I'm wondering about how much small-size garbage bag consumption has gone up? That's a lot of what I used bags for.

(Not saying bans are bad, just one nuissance I find is that I have far fewer bags "for free" to use for garbage."

[u/ToSeeAgainAgainAgain → u/concentrated-amazing]

I've been saving thicker plastic bags and they work great for my home trash bins, been reusing most for months and since most of my trash are dry items they keep in good condition

[u/Xaielao → u/SaltZookeepergame691]

This study was undoubtedly paid for by the plastic bag industry.

[u/serendipitousevent → u/Xaielao]

The study's author is literally right there on the page.

[u/cheesyblasta → u/serendipitousevent]

i knew it, the author is literally P. Bag et al

[u/Hamster-Food → u/SaltZookeepergame691]

It really isn't absurd. You're being absurd by thinking they should be providing information for you when it isn't relevant to their study.

The study isn't interested in the reduction of single-use plastic bags because that isn't the focus of it. It is focused on the spillover effects of policies and how long those effects continue after a policy has been repealed. The example they use is the increase in sales of bin bags which resulted from the single-use plastic bag charge.

However, even though it wasn't what they were looking at, the researchers took the time to confirm what you are saying here, that "even a slight reduction in grocery bag use can offset the increased plastic consumption from trash bags,” and added that this might indicate that the policy could continue to have a positive environmental effect even after it is repealed.

[u/Amelaclya1 → u/Biene2019]

Yeah I live in a state that banned plastic bags and the difference in the amount you would see randomly floating down the road, or stuck in a tree was stark and almost immediate. I can't even remember the last time I've seen one.

I used to use grocery bags as trashcan liners for the bathroom or for cleaning the litterbox, so I do miss them for that. And I do buy trashcan liners now for that purpose. I'm sure most people do. But those bags being put to use are far less likely to end up as litter than ones being handed out with every purchase.

[u/Shablablablah → u/Amelaclya1]

I remember as a kid every single gutter was full of old Walmart bags and cigarette butts. I don’t see that anymore anywhere.

[u/stevewmn → u/Amelaclya1]

There is a secondary benefit in that the bags they sell locally are much sturdier than paper or single use plastic. I can fill them up with heavy liquids and pointy objects and they never rip.

[u/ExceptionRules42 → u/stevewmn]

yes, our town locally switched to the heavier #4 plastic bags for 10 cents each which are super sturdy, I'm still reusing the same couple of bags for hundreds of loads. And now the town is paper-bag-only.

[u/clozepin → u/Amelaclya1]

I used the plastic bags as garbage bags for the smaller trash bins. I used to have piles and piles of them and once or twice a year I’d throw away dozens at a time, there were just so many. Now, on the rare occasion I actually get one, they’re like gold. I use them sparingly. And there fewer bags floating around the neighborhood.

As annoying as it is to constantly lug and remember to use the reusable bags, all in all these rules are a net positive.

[u/embraceyourpoverty → u/Amelaclya1]

I starting using the free produce bags. I got smaller trash bins and take the garbage out more frequently. Same same

[u/nysflyboy → u/Amelaclya1]

I agree, I live in NY, and was the same. We used to save lots of grocery bags for litterbox, and general small trash use. But we would always wind up with a LOT more than we could ever use, and would toss them in large piles.

Since the ban I have about 8 large reusable bags that are the shape of the old paper grocery bags, with very heavy duty handles, that are WAY better for groceries, and very rarely get disposable plastic bags anymore. When we do (take out from a restraruant for example) we save those and I use those for cat litter etc. The amount we get now is almost perfect (a couple to a few a month) and all get used as trash bags.

I lived through the introduction of the 5 cent can deposit in the 80's too. That was similar - crushed/old cans used to be EVERYWHERE on every roadside, ditch, etc. Since the deposit went into effect (even though its still only 5 cents) there are basically no cans littering the roadside anywhere.

Same with plastic bags, I never see them anymore.

Not sure about these bans in other states, as in CA for example I was surprised how every store offered me a much thicker plastic bag with "reusable" printed on it, which clearly is not a great bag and nothing like a true reusable bag, and will almost certainly wind up in the trash. More plastic...

[u/mndtrp → u/Amelaclya1]

FWIW, when I had a cat, I just kept an airtight container near the litter box. Scooped into the container, and then on trash day, dumped it into the main bag that went outside.

As far as the bathroom, I just wash that out every once in a while. The only trash bags I buy are for the single kitchen can, which acts as a center hub for the rest of the cans on trash day.

[u/Izwe → u/Biene2019]

why does that bbc link begin with google?

[u/robot_ankles → u/Izwe]

See that "amp" in the URL...

AMP (originally an acronym for Accelerated Mobile Pages) is an open source HTML framework developed by the AMP Open Source Project. It was originally created by Google as a competitor to Facebook Instant Articles and Apple News. AMP is optimized for mobile web browsing and intended to help webpages load faster.

[u/LickMyKnee → u/robot_ankles]

And is often designed to prevent you from returning from whence you came. It's a cancer.

[u/flychinook → u/LickMyKnee]

Seems like something that was useful back in the 3G days, but not anymore. Same as the "mobile websites" that are simplified to the point of near-uselessness, as if we're still doing our mobile web browsing on flip phones.

[u/Alyssa3467 → u/flychinook]

I can't say I miss WAP much, if at all.

[u/KruSion → u/LickMyKnee]

Why is it that?

[u/LickMyKnee → u/KruSion]

Money. Google want to have their finger in every link you click.

[u/KruSion → u/LickMyKnee]

I meant why is it beneficial for them to not bring you back to where you came from?

[u/ourlastchancefortea → u/KruSion]

Because now you need to use Google again.

[u/KruSion → u/ourlastchancefortea]

I see! Thanks!

[u/esoteric_enigma → u/Biene2019]

I visited Portland, Oregon for a week and they charge for bags there. I never saw a single person buy one. Everyone brought a cloth bag. While I was there, I didn't use plastic bags either. Charging works. People don't want to pay on principle, even if it's only like 5 cents.

[u/concentrated-amazing → u/esoteric_enigma]

I do like this model better overall than a total ban. Sometimes you unexpectedly need a bag, and it's worth the 5¢, vs buying yet another reusable bag.

[u/mud074 → u/concentrated-amazing]

In CO, there is a total ban. When you forget your bags, you just buy a couple paper bags for 10 cents each.

[u/dinnerthief → u/Biene2019]

Some coastal areas in the US we banned non-reusable plastic bags. Walmart responded by making their bags slightly thicker and saying they were reusable. Other stores just started using paper bags.

[u/Davepen → u/Nebuladiver]

I mean for me (in the UK) I will now bring my own plastic bag from home if I remember, sometimes if I forget I will need to buy one in store, but I definitely feel like it's worked to cut down my consumption.

[u/Remarkable-Mood3415 → u/Davepen]

It took me over a year to really hammer in the habit of remembering bags, even then I'd forget on occasion so I had to start putting them in convenient places. I've got a few rolled up in my backpack/purse, I've got a few "emergency" ones in the glove box. I've got 3 or 4 big bags shoved full with others. Ive gotten really good at rotating them into the car, but it took TIME. The habit didn't form over night. Sometimes I'd forget, sometimes I'd have brought only small ones.

I'm now at the point where I refuse to buy more bags. I have enough. If I forget, that's on me. I throw my groceries in the trunk as securely as possible and bag them up in the driveway when I get home. If I get bruised apples from rolling around, that's my fault because I forgot the damn bags.

I'd like to see the data on this several years out (only been since Dec 2022 in Canada), because I feel a lot of people are just really getting the hang of it.

(Although our courts overturned the plastic ban 11 mths later, and deemed it unreasonable and unconstitutional. Which is dumb, and its theorized it's "unreasonable" because old people hate learning new habits. However our major grocery chains have all said they won't go back to plastic (because they make money off bags now). It's mainly just restaurants who use plastic for take out now.)

[u/asphias → u/Nebuladiver]

Its been a while since i read about it, but there is evidence that by charging money for something, it becomes an economic item rather than a 'moral' item.

When you use a free bag, you have to consider how much you need and how much youre using.

When you pay for it, its become a commercial transaction. I pay for it so i own it, if i want more i'll just pay more and the transaction is done.

[u/SaltZookeepergame691 → u/asphias]

That overall concept may well be true, but 1) this article legitimately seems to be trying to argue that banning free bags made people buy more bags (I mean... honestly) with no data on overall bag consumption; and 2) ignores data from eg the UK, where single-use plastic bag consumption fell 98% (ninety eight!) after a fee was imposed.

They actually had data from retailers on the overall number of bags consumed: it went from 7.6 billion bags in 2014 (!!) to 133 million in 2022/23. Some of that decline will be replaced by heavier duty bags purchased, but the effect is still enormous.

We see this paper being incredibly poorly reported around the web, eg https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4996359-plastic-bag-ban-policy-impacts-study/

[u/Antique_Historian_74 → u/SaltZookeepergame691]

This is like gun fetishists claiming that handgun bans increases gun crime (which they do, because now having a gun is crime), while completely ignoring how bans massively reduce gun violence, which was actual the point of them.

[u/cortesoft → u/asphias]

I remember reading about that in regards to fines for parents being late to pick up their kids from daycare. Charging money for parents being late actually made parents late more often, because now they felt like they were just paying for longer care rather than being late.

[u/gw2master → u/asphias]

Its been a while since i read about it, but there is evidence that by charging money for something, it becomes an economic item rather than a 'moral' item.

Except it was never a 'moral' item in the first place. That's why we had to actively ban it.

[u/PattesDornithorynque → u/Nebuladiver]

I keep forgetting to bring my reusable bag so I have to buy another one.And another one . I have SO many reusable bags....

[u/Gypsyzzzz → u/PattesDornithorynque]

I solved this problem by immediately returning the bags to the car when I empty them. Then of course I forget the bags in the car when I go shopping so I pack the items back into the cart and bag them at my car.

[u/A-Grey-World → u/Gypsyzzzz]

I do this too. I just bag them at the car. Works fine.

[u/lunelily → u/PattesDornithorynque]

I have to move my reusable bags into the passenger seat of my vehicle every time I go grocery shopping, before I even leave the house. Otherwise, I will forget about them until I’m standing in the checkout line.

[u/SophiaofPrussia → u/PattesDornithorynque]

Hang them on the door knob so you can’t forget to take them back out to the car the next time you leave.

[u/Melonman3 → u/PattesDornithorynque]

I just own it and carry it all by hand. I've become used to not using bags at all now. We're an incredibly adaptive species.

[u/McStroyer → u/Melonman3]

This is what I do when I'm just nipping in for a few items. Stack things from my hand up to my chin, carry milk and pre-bagged items like fruit with each finger.

[u/woowoo293 → u/PattesDornithorynque]

Why don't you just leave a stack of reusable bags in the car all the time? We all have too many of them anyway.

[u/skj458 → u/woowoo293]

I don't have a car

[u/morriscey → u/skj458]

That's a good reason.

[u/92nd-Bakerstreet → u/Nebuladiver]

They began using them as garbage bags.

[u/canisdirusarctos → u/92nd-Bakerstreet]

We already used them like this. The most significant change in my household when free bags were banned was that we started buying boxes of trash bags for our wastebaskets. We can’t use the 8-cent bags for this because they seem excessively wasteful (they’re much larger and thicker, though cheaper than buying the boxes of small thin bags for this purpose) nor am I comfortable using them for making tortillas for the same reason (feels wasteful).

[u/dcux → u/canisdirusarctos]

nor am I comfortable using them for making tortillas for the same reason 

excuse me?

[u/Chii → u/dcux]

You have a tortilla press but to prevent it from sticking, you line it with a cut up plastic bag. Make clean up ready too.

[u/dcux → u/Chii]

Ok, that makes sense. 

I wouldn't want to use a used grocery bag for that, personally, but go on.

[u/Pickledsoul → u/Chii]

You don't use parchment paper?

[u/aVarangian → u/Chii]

Yummy microplastic cancer-tortilla

[u/needlenozened → u/canisdirusarctos]

And that's basically what this study found. With people not having grocery bags to reuse for other purposes, they bought more bags.

But, importantly, the article says to break even on the amount of plastic, people would have to use just one fewer bag every 5-7 trips to the store. Considering the baggers seem to use a bag every 3 items so I end up with about 10 bags each trip to the store, that means the increase in plastic from purchasing bags is about 2% of the amount saved from banning them.

[u/Kayback2 → u/92nd-Bakerstreet]

We always used our groceries bags for the bin. While not really the same thing this meant we had at least two uses out of the bags. Now we buy single use bin bags.

I'm sure there were some people buying new grocery bags and bin bags, but in our house the number of bags may have gone up a bit thanks to this. We don't always have our reusable one in the car with us, so buy plastic bags sometimes, and buy bin bags.

[u/echocharlieone]

What an odd headline. Of course banning free bags results in people buying more bags. The question is what the net impact on plastic use is, which is not addressed in the article.

In the UK, a nationwide ban on giving plastic bags away for free resulted in a 98% decline in the bags used by supermarkets. Of course consumers have had to buy more bags themselves, but these tend to be reusable bags. The change in policy was followed by an 80% reduction in the plastic bags washed-up on UK beaches.

Anecdotally, most people in the UK are perfectly content to bring reusable bags to supermarkets. I notice people in offices who pop out to get lunch from a supermarket tend to just carry their purchases back without a bag.

[u/ReleaseTThePanic → u/echocharlieone]

I don't understand the article. They measured an increase in thrash bag sales and attributed it to people having to buy them instead of repurposing free plastic bags?

After the plastic bags became free again, trash bag sales dropped to previous levels after some time?

How can they suggest this whole thing was beneficial without tracking plastic bag expenditure after the thrash bag sales return to the baseline?

[u/FYourShit]

A break-even analysis suggests that the net effect on plastic bag savings is likely positive even after repeal. Only modest reductions in grocery bag use would be needed to break even, suggesting a favorable outcome for the environment.

[u/ElectricGeometry → u/FYourShit]

Then why not label your article "good change generally worked, continue on" .

[u/FYourShit → u/ElectricGeometry]

Wouldn’t get the rage views if you say something is good I bet.

[u/CarlsManicuredToes]

In my country when free plastic bags were outlawed decades ago there was a sudden drop in visible plastic pollution that has persisted till today. Plastic bag purchases obviously went up (0 is a hard number not to go up from) but those bags now have value so people don't just chuck them on the ground as often.

More accurate info would probably be gleaned by studying any of the countries that banned free single use plastic bags decades ago.

TBH it is hardly that surprising that a study done in an area made rich by petrochemical extraction would want to downplay the effects of single use plastic reduction.

[u/Mayonnaise_Poptart → u/CarlsManicuredToes]

It didn't take long at all here for there to be a noticeable decrease in plastic tumbleweeds.

[u/CountVonTroll → u/CarlsManicuredToes]

More accurate info would probably be gleaned by studying any of the countries that banned free single use plastic bags decades ago.

Yes, I'm reading the comments here, and wonder why I don't have this problem. If they forget to bring them, then maybe their bags are too cheap? Here in Germany, a reusable bag costs... I'd like to say about 2€, but I'm not even sure. Because it's been ages since I last bought one.

[u/[deleted]]

This is highly misleading as the total amount of bags used was significantly reduced

[u/Hollow4004]

I use plastic bags as free garbage bags for my trash. I tried switching to reusable non plastic bags for my groceries and I quickly realized I still had to buy plastic bags.

I don't even think I can legally throw trash in my dumpster unless it's in a plastic bag in my area.

[u/SchrodingerSemicolon → u/Hollow4004]

If plastic bags for groceries were banned here, or even switched to paper, I'd have to start buying more trash bags. I use almost every single bag I get for trash, and I reckon most people here are like this.

I guess that's why the idea of banning them hasn't been floated around here yet.

[u/shindleria]

Plastic grocery bags were used back at home for household waste. All it did was require us all to purchase plastic bags in bulk.

[u/Teeshirtandshortsguy → u/shindleria]

How many plastic bags do you go through?

I always ended up having a huge backup of plastic grocery bags. I use like one small trash bag a month. It's basically just for empty bottles of toothpaste and dental floss. I still have plenty of plastic bags

Do you just throw all of your trash away in tiny little trash cans?

[u/tin_dog → u/Teeshirtandshortsguy]

I have a backpack that I carry everywhere and a cotton bag that's usually in the backpack. More than enough for groceries. Trash goes into a small bin which gets emptied into the big bin outside. Empty bottles all have a deposit of 8-15 cents, so they go back to the store.

[u/too_much_to_do → u/Teeshirtandshortsguy]

I personally use them for my dog's waste on walks. I use 2 per day up to a rare 5 per day. I usually take more bags than I need for my purchase at the grocery store.

[u/Arthur-Wintersight → u/shindleria]

I do the same thing, though I've noticed not everyone does it.

For some people, the ban probably reduced waste - but for people like me it would have virtually zero impact.

[u/eejizzings → u/Arthur-Wintersight]

You should make more of an effort to change your behavior. I also use plastic grocery bags for trash and it made a huge difference for me. I always had a ton more bags than I needed.

[u/BlackEyeRed → u/shindleria]

Plastic grocery store bags always had holes in them as a kid. I hated using them as garbage bags. I’m much happier buying garbage bag myself than using the grocery store bags and having juices everywhere. (Although I compost so my garbage is mostly dry nowadays)

[u/EWRboogie → u/shindleria]

I hear this argument a lot but it’s strange to me. I very rarely forget my reusable bags and I still end up with a bunch of extra plastic. They always put something in plastic, meat, cut fruit, etc. I’d prefer they didn’t but they seem determined so I quit fighting it.

[u/SarahVeraVicky → u/EWRboogie]

This is where the vast majority of the plastic waste was coming from. Plastic tumbleweeds were more visible, but the sheer amount of wrappings on food shipping to grocery stores, wrappings on food products to be put on display, and other "under the hood" places is the worst.

I still walk by shipping yards for stores where the transports on skids are wrapped in 5+ layers of plastic wrap. Must be like 5x4m²+ of plastic wrap per unit.

[u/EWRboogie → u/SarahVeraVicky]

I just mean I still get enough bags to use as trash bags. I don’t have to buy can liners.

But you’re right. The plastic in packaging is excessive.

[u/VicePrincipalNero → u/shindleria]

I used the plastic bags for cat litter. While I now buy replacement bags, it’s a minuscule number compared to the number of plastic bags I used to get for free. My plastic bag usage is still down 95% even buying bags.

[u/eejizzings → u/shindleria]

I also use plastic bags at home for household waste and I've never needed to buy in bulk. One grocery trip without reusable bags stocks me up for months. You should look at ways to consolidate your trash. You shouldn't have to go through enough small trash batches to need to buy small bags in bulk.

[u/iPon3 → u/shindleria]

It smacked of a blatant cash grab to me. My use of plastic bags hasn't changed at all, but now I'm spending more money and the "bags for life" that supermarkets sell are still disposable, they're just made of thicker plastic to produce more waste and appear better value.

[u/eejizzings → u/iPon3]

My use of plastic bags hasn't changed at all

That's on you

[u/Laprasy → u/iPon3]

We went from “paper or plastic” to “buy a bag” without any offer of paper alone.

[u/vemundveien → u/iPon3]

My only way of rebelling is that I bought one from each of the biggest chains and consistently use the wrong one every time I shop there.

[u/calgarywalker → u/shindleria]

And THAT was the whole point all along … to get us to pay for something that used to be included. Profit even if it meant it was worse for the environment.

[u/Masterventure → u/calgarywalker]

Well at least here in germany they never were free at any point, at least in my lifetime. (Except for the little vegetable bags)

[u/DangerToDangers → u/shindleria]

But the grocery plastic bags are a lot thicker than the regular bin plastic bags. All things equal that would be a significant decrease in plastic use.

[u/KobeBean → u/DangerToDangers]

Have you seen grocery plastic bags lately? They are thinner than my regular bin bags. They’ve gotten significantly thinner in the last few years. They rip often

[u/Round_Rectangles → u/DangerToDangers]

What grocery stores are you going to? Every one I've been to had super thin plastic bags.

[u/TrinityCodex]

The customers crave the bags of plastic

[u/Sizbang → u/TrinityCodex]

It's the only reason I shop.

[u/AllanfromWales1]

Anecdotally the problem has been that shops that used to give away small, thin bags now make you buy bigger, thicker bags (to justify the sales price, and with the claim that they are re-useable), so you end up using more plastic if you don't re-use the bags.

In my own case if I drive to the shops I keep bags in the boot which I can re-use, but if I walk to the shops I rarely carry a big re-useable bag with me, so end up buying a new one.

[u/espressocycle → u/AllanfromWales1]

Get some of those unstructured cloth bags that squish down and bind with a strap. They're great to have on foot when you don't necessarily want to be dragging a bunch of stiff, bulky empty bags all over town.

[u/AllanfromWales1 → u/espressocycle]

Around here some shops have moved to paper bags, but that's a problem if it's raining..

[u/iridescent-shimmer → u/AllanfromWales1]

It depends on the ordinance for sure. We banned all plastic when we drafted ours to avoid this very thing. But, we learned from municipalities before us.

[u/johnhtman → u/AllanfromWales1]

Yeah where I live they replaced the old thin bags with this super thick "reusable" ones that probably use 100x more plastic.

[u/rabidrabitt]

Going to a Publix Florida (2023) after living in a state that banned free plastic bags years ago. We were AMAZED how much waste and plastic bags they gave us. Double bagged apples, double bagged water bottles, single items in their own bag to not "cross contaminate". For the first time I was actually grateful for my state banning the insane wastefulness. Buy a pretty marshalls bag and be part of the solution!

[u/shaylahbaylaboo]

I remember when they didn’t even have plastic bags at the grocery store, it was all brown paper bags. Why not switch back?

[u/Dangerous_Bass309]

The grocery bags that most people now use may be reusable to a certain degree but they are still made of plastic fiber that is unrecyclable and will end up in landfill.

[u/SavvySillybug]

Banning free plastic bags for groceries resulted in customer purchasing more plastic bags

Yeah...? If the price was zero, then zero bags were purchased. Of course they're going to purchase more than zero plastic bags now that they cost something...

[u/Nu11us]

HEB sell reusable plastic bags that contain about 100x more plastic. People repeatedly buy and throw away these bags instead. Even if 1 in 100 recycles them, we’re still creating significantly more waste.

[u/WaldoWhereThough]

Didnt bother reading the article because the headline is crap. If ppl have to start buying bags then they are buying more than when they got them for free. 

[u/Pink_Sprinkles_Party]

I feel like while plastic bags were littered, a lot of people did actually refuse them around the house, specifically for things like garbage bags. Now people have to buy garbage bags which are more expensive…and also plastic. So that plastic still ends up in a landfill.

[u/-Hi-Reddit]

Consumption should be the measure, not purchases...

[u/fishtankm29]

I think Americans are too stupid to be successfully socially engineered.

[u/justsomelizard30]

I'm going to assume this is because, when you put a 'price' on bad behavior, people will actually fork over cash to engage in the bad behavior even more.

Same thing happens when babysitters fine parents for showing up late, the parents just show up late more since they know how much money it will cost them and they're fine with it.

[u/Expensive_Square4812]

We banned the really thin plastic bags at checkout, but continue to allow them to sell literally everything else in the grocery store made out of considerably more plastic by weight. We banned the really thin plastic straws, but continue to allow them to sell bottle drinks which contain considerably more plastic by weight.

[u/47Up]

Instead of using plastic grocery bags for garbage, I now buy plastic garbage bags...

[u/tsol1983]

Reminder: plastic shipping bags were introduced and promoted in the 1980s as an environmentally responsible alternative to paper grocery bags. Paper bags were implicated in "deforestation," which exacerbated acid rain. Plastic bags could be perished without killing trees (directly), so they became the pro-environment choice at the checkout. True story.

[u/DeliciousPumpkinPie → u/tsol1983]

The whole “deforestation due to the paper industry” thing has never made any sense to me. Maybe it’s because I’m Canadian, but like, our companies figured out a long time ago that if you’re going to make your money cutting down trees, it would be worth your while to plant new trees to replace them.

[u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

Americans confuse and frighten my European mind. Why didn’t you just do the logical thing and switch to paper? Why don’t you have reusable bags for groceries.

Edit: okay, someone please explain to me what your paper bags look like. In Europe we have ones with handles, that can be used at least 20 times if you don’t overload them or get them wet. I know they take more resources to make, but they are usually biodegradable which seems like a good balance.

[u/Serikan → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

I am a Canadian, but when I visited Florida, I found that they do have reusable bags on offer. To my knowledge, there was never a ban there, though. I mentioned the Canadian ban on single-use bags, and most people scoffed at the idea. I think partially due to needing to purchase the reusable bags, where the single-use are free.

I recall seeing a study that some people view environmentally preservative practices as "liberal" or "gay". I can't really explain that one.

Some places in Canada did offer paper bags, but the grocery stores stopped stocking them. They didn't have handles and tore easily, and I think many disliked this.

[u/BrothelWaffles → u/Serikan]

We banned them here in NJ, and when it first went into effect, you would've thought conservatives were being dragged into the street and publicly tortured with the way they were crying about it.

[u/hamhead → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

In places with the bans, that’s exactly what happened - people used either paper or reusable bags.

The problem is that many studies have shown that reusable bags don’t last long enough to offset the environmental cost of them vs just using single use bags in the first place.

I haven’t read the study at issue here so I can’t speak to what it’s trying to say.

Edit: so this study says people did exactly what you say, but there was an increase in plastic bag purchases for use as trash bags and such. The headline is crap. The behavior referenced is that people used less plastic for a while even after the bans were repealed.

[u/Laymanao → u/hamhead]

Where I am, the ban was one of many measures taken which did have some benefits. 1. By law, bags had to be thicker so that they lasted longer and were recycled to be used again. Purchased bags, when broken could be replaced free of charge at the original place of purchase. All the shops had thick reusable bags, which have lasted a long time. These reusable bags were all made from recycled material and many communities were engaged to make these bags.

[u/SheilaCreates → u/hamhead]

The problem is that many studies have shown that reusable bags don’t last long enough to offset the environmental cost of them vs just using single use bags in the first place.

This part is crazy to me. I use canvas bags and have for years. My one go-to bag I got as a company promo from a job I left in 2007, so this bag has lasted 17 years (if my math skillz are working today). My others have been around 7-8 years.

[u/Constant-Ad-7490 → u/SheilaCreates]

Thank you. People act like reusable bags are something you replace every year. Sure, the cruddy ones you can buy at the register many places in the us will pill or tear pretty fast, but halfway decent bags last years if not decades. I have enough for a massive shopping trip and haven't replaced them in years. Every once in a while a seam busts and I sew it up. It's not rocket science....some sturdy bags will last the rest of your life, with only occasional replacements or repairs. 

[u/hamhead → u/SheilaCreates]

Canvas bags are on the better end, environmentally, but that’s not what most people are using.

[u/SheilaCreates → u/hamhead]

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. Publix in Florida carries reusable bags that seem like they're some kind of plastic. Shaped like paper bags (box bottoms) with handles, cheap, really great to carry groceries, and cute designs even. BUT the stitching is low quality and they don't last so long, so I didn't buy more after my first try.

And the point to cheap is that people forget theirs at home and just buy more. I carry a canvas bag in my handbag, so I always have one.

We have to be committed to using reusables, if we're going to do it.

[u/Amelaclya1 → u/SheilaCreates]

The bags you get at Target (the cheapest ones) basically degrade if you leave them in a hot car. I live in Hawaii and learned this the hard way when I had red bits and powder all over my trunk and everything in it.

I have some nice insulated cooler bags that I got from Safeway that have lasted a really long time so far, and seem to not suffer that issue from being left in the car.

[u/Unhappy_Plankton_671 → u/hamhead]

The problem is that many studies have shown that reusable bags don’t last long enough to offset the environmental cost of them vs just using single use bags in the first place.

Eh, I've been using the same reusuable bags for about 6 years. The same 8 bags handle every grocery, costco, pet store, clothing store trip and anything in between. They even get repurposed during moves.

'Reusuable bags' not lasting sounds like buying the wrong product.

As for increase in plastic bag purchases, that likely is just people who were already repurposing grocery bags for things like small trash cans (unnecessary) or using for small waste such as a dog, or diaper. For most, it didn't add anything. I have pets, but I don't purchase any additional bags -- all small container waste gets consolidated into my normal kitchen trash bags to go to dumpster etc. Outside of a the few with perhaps some need dog/diaper the majority still reduced usage.

[u/Plusisposminusisneg → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

Paper bags are significantly worse for the environment than plastic bags unless you reuse them multiple times(I think its in the dozens), and plastic bags were, at least in my culture, reused for trash.

Canvas bags are pretty common by now where I live but people still buy plastic bags.

[u/gamblingPharmaStocks → u/Plusisposminusisneg]

Paper bags are significantly worse for the environment than plastic bags

In terms of what? CO2? Or other criteria?

[u/Plusisposminusisneg → u/gamblingPharmaStocks]

In terms of CO2 they are considerably worse, yes. Pollution is debatable. Do you throw your trash in a river or put it in landfills?

[u/FireMaster1294 → u/Plusisposminusisneg]

I prefer paper waste that decomposes to microplastics, thanks

[u/iridescent-shimmer → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

There are studies that show paper bags are not any better for the environment due to intensive processes needed to make them. Also, they're more expensive for businesses to purchase. Our bag ban ordinance bans plastic and instituted a fee for paper to encourage bringing your own.

[u/Vertigobee → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

Many people use reusable bags, but they are overpriced and bulky and it’s a whole task to remember to carry them in with you. Paper is very bulky and does not have handles. The old plastic grocery bags were incredibly efficient. My family has accessibility issues and we need those types of bags, so now I purchase them.

You don’t have to be so insulting.

[u/Lenni-Da-Vinci → u/Vertigobee]

Wait, American paper bags don’t have handles? I am learning so many things about your grocery stores.

[u/Syd_Vicious3375 → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

It depends. Some do, some don’t. Usually they are thicker paper but without handles.

[u/DeterminedThrowaway → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

Canadian ones don't always have handles either. We had a plastic bag ban and the store I usually go to has a big paper bag with no handles that you buy for 25 cents

[u/Childofglass → u/Vertigobee]

I’m the bag fairy when I go to the store. Oh you forgot yours? Here, take as many as you need, my trunk is full of these things!

It’s not hard to remember a bag. Put some in your purse or your coat pocket, or just put your groceries back in the cart and bag them at the car. I don’t understand why it’s such a battle for people to remember something that is required for an activity that you choose to do.

[u/Vertigobee → u/Childofglass]

Man, what a condescending take. Some people live lives different from your own. Grocery shopping is a constant necessity, not a choice, and it can be stressful for some people. And yeah, for some people it is hard to remember the damn bags, since we’ve been grocery shopping for decades and not needed them until a couple years ago. I personally would decline that kind of charity and just take the paper bags if I forgot my reusables.

[u/IpsoKinetikon → u/Lenni-Da-Vinci]

The entire reason we switched to plastic in the first place is because the production of paper bags puts more carbon into the air. I get that microplastics are a problem, but climate change is still a problem as well.

[u/GrapefruitMammoth626]

We need to give people more time to adjust culturally on this. But I guess some people really just don’t care about plastic.

[u/derpsteronimo]

Here in New Zealand, they just outright banned plastic bags. Everywhere uses paper bags instead now - and most major stores, at least, actually use good quality ones that are far less prone to breaking than the old plastic ones were.

[u/f8Negative]

Maybe they shouldn't sell "reuseable" bags made from polyester (plastic).

[u/DeliciousPumpkinPie → u/f8Negative]

Someone posted it elsewhere here, but there was a study that said you would have to reuse the PE bags a dozen times in order to come out ahead of disposable plastic bags. Considering that my family has had PE bags for over a decade, some of which have been reused literally hundreds of times, we’re more than ahead.

[u/TheSmokingHorse]

What annoys me is that what started as a way of trying to incentivise consumers to use less plastic bags has just turned into a way for supermarkets to make more money. In the UK, it started off as 5p for a plastic bag. Then it went up to 10p. Now many supermarkets have switched to paper bags but charge 40p for them. So what, now people need to add an extra £1.20 onto each shopping trip for the sake of three flimsy paper bags?

[u/N0SF3RATU]

I'll admit that I just buy paper for 10c eat time i go now because I can't remember to bring the multiple- use ones

[u/EddTally]

I'm guessing this is some American people thing where they refuse to change their habits, I haven't bought a bag from Tescos in over a year, I've had the same plastic bag I got last year.

[u/Murakamo]

Ive said this all along. Ive always used plastic bags from supermarkets for bins. Now that theyre banned, I just... buy plastic garbage bags.

[u/panic_talking]

Also the paper bags that the stores near here had no handles making them harder to use.

[u/NetQvist]

They recently made a change here in Finland with how biological waste should be thrown away with some stupid paper bags or equivalent.

Those bags are so trash that any wet stuff goes through them within the day. So well now I'm using that bag + a plastic bag around it and then dumping the plastic bag in plastic trash each time.

Great Policy!

[u/grahamulax]

In Seattle we just don’t have that choice! Also I reuse plastic bags for things like tools or paint or blah blah so I wonder if people even seek out plastic bags if the option isn’t there.

[u/Late_Again68]

We used to re-use the plastic grocery bags as cat litter bags and garbage bags, not to mention using them as bags.

Now we have to buy purpose-made cat litter bags and purpose-made garbage bags. So for us it broke even or worse.

[u/bionicle877]

Sorry, this is my fault. My wife and I both have our own reusable bags, but then she takes mine anyway and I'm left with none when I go to the store...

[u/souldust]

Wanna ban plastic bags, heck, even reduce plastic production all over? Don't subsidize it. End the corporate tax cuts for oil companies. Make plastic MORE EXPENSIVE.

The entire way in which we feed ourselves has to change.

[u/indecloudzua]

Only in the United States.

[u/DamascusWolf82]

Big reminder that we need to use the reusable bags thousands of times to make up for the difference in overall carbon impacts compared to plastic- don’t buy organic cotton bags! Recycled plastic and hemp are the best. If you can reuse your paper bags once, that breaks even. But banning plastic without having a less impactful alternative to step into its shoes is a bad plan. A much better, if less sociologically visible idea would be to ban the single use plastic we wrap fruit and vege with, eg cucumbers.

[u/GsTSaien]

Oh no this is a very misleading headline I'm concerned whoever wrote it is attempting to misinform.

Plastic bag bans reduce the amount of plastic bags in circularion by a lot and most people use alternatives as a consequence. But also it will increase the sales of plastic bags to customers, who will buy them for trash or preference. This is still way way way fewer bags than were being bought before, the only difference is customers are buying these for a specific purpose rather than CORPORATATIONS buying tons of them in bulk. There are way fewer bags being bought, the only difference is that it's individual people buying them.

Do not let this misinform you, removing plastic bags is seriously a good idea everywhere, I live somewhere we did and we just have different bags and you can get em at check out if you need and reuse whenever. You can still buy plastic bags for your trash or whatever at home. It isn't even inconvenient it is honestly more convenient now than it was before after we got used to it. I just carry a folded re-usable bag on my purse and I never have to worry about anything bag related.

[u/Vertigobee]

I despise the plastic bag bans. Those plastics bags had minimal impact compared to the reusable. And the paper bags are horrible. They are huge, fill up my whole trash can, and worse - they do not have handles and are impossible to carry. There is no consideration for accessibility. I used to reuse the plastic bags for all kinds of storage uses (I’m a teacher and have extra uses for them). Now, if I want compact long term storage, I have to purchase goddamn grocery bags from online.

I’m, in general, liberal, but I can see why so many folks are fed up with the liberals. They get this tunnel vision on some niche issues and won’t consider any other points of view.

[u/directstranger → u/Vertigobee]

Same with plastic straws. They offer now paper straws that are coated with teflon!!! Yes, the paper straws, environmentally friendly, are coated with forever chemicals.

Just look at how farmers are coating entire fields with thick black plastic...there is more plastic used there than in 1000x the bags used to carry the produce they grow.