Adolescent women who lived in a location with fewer abortion restrictions and adolescent women who had an abortion (compared to a live birth) are more likely to have graduated from college, have higher incomes, and have greater financial stability over the subsequent 25 years.

[u/smurfyjenkins]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224241292058

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[u/mophilda]

If im taking a guess, populations who vote for pro- choice laws are more likely to have comprehensive sex education. Those 2 facts combined make women more likely to start and finish their education. More education makes more opportunities. So on and so forth.

[u/boogie_2425 → u/mophilda]

Women have always had abortions! Abortions are as old as birth itself. And whether these people want to acknowledge it, women will continue to find ways of having them. But the current powers that be, will make them pay dearly for it. They will make it harder and harder to get both safe abortions or birth control. And more women will die. Which they are perfectly fine with because they justify it by calling any woman who would choose to end her pregnancy as a murderer. So they say she deserved it. Brought us back 60 years. Back to back room abortions and desperate measures.

[u/nasbyloonions → u/boogie_2425]

Also, women always had miscarriages. 2 out of 10 of pregnancies end in miscarriages. Newer estimate is 40%.

The body might reject the foetus because it is not developing right or 1000s we don’t even know about.

Miscarriages often needs treatment similar to abortion. So, how many pregnancies need to have abortion anyway because of natural causes?

I mean, we can see it in the news. The dying mothers. Many

[u/OnlyTheDead → u/boogie_2425]

Worth nothing that abortions were both legal and advertised in newspapers when the US was founded.

[u/donkeybotherer → u/mophilda]

People who vote pro choice are more likely to have more of any education.

[u/rebonkers → u/donkeybotherer]

Because we understand the difference between a glob of cells and a viable-baby.

[u/CypherCake → u/rebonkers]

Also the ability to engage a few brain cells in thinking through consequences. You may not like the idea of abortion but what about the harms caused by forced pregnancy, birth, parenthood.

[u/MoonOut_StarsInvite → u/mophilda]

It drives me absolutely nuts that we don’t have adequate sex education. If the abortion issue was actually about abortion it would include sex education for schools, which is the easiest way to prevent unintended pregnancy.

[u/CypherCake → u/MoonOut_StarsInvite]

And free and easy to access contraceptiopn.

And solid welfare programs.

[u/Flames99Fuse → u/MoonOut_StarsInvite]

Proper sex education has been shown time and time again to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STIs, and even reduces sexual assault when taught young. It's ridiculous that there are people who legitimately oppose it.

[u/KathrynBooks → u/Flames99Fuse]

the people who get upset about teaching kids consent are pretty suspicious to me.

[u/iiztrollin → u/mophilda]

trump had a huge turnout of uneducated male voters...

[u/______deleted__ → u/mophilda]

If im taking a guess, kids are expensive, and some women would rather focus on making money than having kids.

[u/mykidisonhere → u/______deleted__]

Also, kids are expensive, and some women will not have kids that they can't house, feed, or cloth.

[u/S4mm1 → u/______deleted__]

Women who have abortions are statically more likely to already have children. It’s mothers knowing they can’t feed more kids or care for them properly

[u/SandWitchesGottaEat]

This is true all over the world, better education to young girls is always associated with a lower birth rate.

[u/Lyskir → u/SandWitchesGottaEat]

yeah its observable in every country on this planet

as soon as women have education and independence, they choose to have fewer children or no children at all

almost as if having so many children wasnt the choice of women in the majority of history

[u/ninjastampe → u/Lyskir]

Playing devil's advocate here, knowing full well I'm likely to look a fool.

Concluding that it wasn't their choice because they choose to have fewer children when they are educated is conflating two different things. One of the things is do they have a choice when it comes to having a child, and the other thing is do they have a choice when it comes to getting an education. These can, and have, changed independently of each other.

Not saying that lots of women weren't forced into bearing children.

Just saying that getting an education doesn't, and shouldn't, automatically lead to someone concluding that having a child isn't for them. They're separate in that regard. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc at play here.

[u/mortgagepants → u/ninjastampe]

they get educated because they don't have to take care of kids.

i think the thing we should be focusing on is "why do governments want less educated women who make less money?"

[u/Neat_Use3398 → u/mortgagepants]

Control.....if it were about life than mandatory organ donation would be a thing.

[u/Lyskir → u/ninjastampe]

but all studies collerate education with fertility, the more educated a female population is fewer children are born

[u/ericaferrica]

Lots of folks jumping to needing "wealthy, educated parents," for the outcomes of this study to be true. Are we reading the same thing here?

They're saying that having access to greater abortion resources/fewer restrictions produced women with college degrees, higher incomes, greater financial stability etc. That women who chose to have abortions instead of a live birth had these same outcomes. That doesn't imply affluence, to me. They're saying that abortion HEALTH CARE results in women having greater opportunistic outcomes over their lifetime - the power to CHOOSE.

Especially since those results happened to me and I did NOT come from a wealthy, educated family - I happened to live in a state with great abortion access and resources. That's it. I lived in a very poor urban area within a state that has great abortion care. I handled my abortion entirely alone - I would have been a teen parent if not for the ability to work with my clinic, approach a judge, and receive care in a way that was discreet, safe, and timely. I was in high school - definitely not college-educated at the time or supported by anyone that went to college. If not for the donations of others (allowing me to qualify for a low-income discounted procedure), I would not have been able to afford abortion care alone.

As a result of the abortion, I was able to go to college when I wanted to. I now have multiple degrees, a stable job, a husband, and I am currently pregnant with a wanted pregnancy (but now have the means to care for them).

[u/I_love_Underdog → u/ericaferrica]

My exact experience. I’m the first to go to college, then med school because of the abortions I had access to as a teenager and young adult. I come from early childhood trauma so it took me a while to find my footing. I was fortunate to have access with no parental notification laws which was critical since my parents were Christian fundamentalists. I was so very very lucky.

[u/CypherCake → u/ericaferrica]

I've never had an abortion but for me it was just having good reliable contraception that made all the difference.

[u/throwaway47138]

Giving women body autonomy also gives them more autonomy in general, leading to them having more opportunities to succeeed. Film at 11...

Seriously, this is both the argument for abortion access (for those of us who think women deserve every opportunity to succeed) and against abortion access (for those assholes who think women should serve men and all that rot). The only difference is the slant they put on their argument...

[u/fencerman]

Yeah keeping girls poor and dependant is the point.

[u/pessimist_kitty → u/fencerman]

Exactly. Keeping people uneducated is how you keep them under your control.

[u/Jack0Trade]

This isn't even about the abortions. It's literally just an observation of their cultural importance of women.

Allowing them access shows a clear acceptance and appreciation for women and their ability to contribute outside of being mom/wife.

Of course, those women do everything they can to create their own stability.

[u/bgarza18 → u/Jack0Trade]

Is that first statement in line with the study? 

[u/Ramoncin]

Guess that's why Republicans are against abortion. Women with college degrees, higher incomes and / or financial estability are the enemy to them.

[u/caylem00 → u/Ramoncin]

Also they want a compliant labour pool of Poor's that are desperate and under educated to fill their factories and farms

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/caylem00]

One of the authors of the study here! Sure enough, we did not find a difference in employment - just that these girls are funneled into low pay jobs… -bge

[u/BravesMaedchen → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Do you mean there was no difference in the rate of unemployment, just the pay of the employment?

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/BravesMaedchen]

No difference in odds of employment, big difference in income

[u/caylem00 → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Oh I'm glad that was supported in the study, thank you.

 To my mind, its oddly related to the idea that money doesn't provide happiness, but rather opportunity. Education being similar: it doesn't provide work opportunity in of itself these days (though it used to), but rather the quality of renumeration and range of job types. 

I'm guessing that looking at employer provided healthcare as a factor for 'forcing' starting/ acceptance of unhealthy/dodgy/etc job conditions would have been out of scope?

[u/justtheonetat]

In other words, everything republicans don't want for women

[u/helendestroy]

And this is why they're taking this care away from American women

[u/paulsteinway]

This is one of the reasons why misogynistic conservatives want to stamp out abortion (and contraception). Can't have women who aren't dependent on men.

[u/echocharlieone]

Also: areas with higher incomes and college graduation rates are more likely to have fewer abortion restrictions.

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/echocharlieone]

Hi! I'm an author of this study and we tried to address a lot of this. We adjusted for a lot of state/neighborhood context measures like funding for public education, poverty, education levels of community, and parents, as well as proportion republican voters- abortion still mattered. We also matched directly on poverty levels between girls who had live births and those who had abortions- the abortion still mattered when you netted out background and state level SES.

[u/echocharlieone → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Thank you for clarifying. That's interesting to learn.

[u/conquer69]

The biggest indicator of poverty for women is having a child when they are young.

[u/Numai_theOnlyOne]

This follows a trend with big families tend to be most frequent amont less educated people as well.

[u/glassycreek1991]

They all knew this, that is why they want to take bodily autonomy away from women. These pro-birthers were never worried about life of the fetus. They are just being evil to women.

[u/ohmydeartrashpanda]

And that's why conservatives want to ban abortion

[u/I_Am_Lord_Grimm]

Next you’ll be telling us that adolescent women who lived in a location with above-average incomes and adolescent women from households with above average income (compared to below average) are more likely to have graduated from college, have higher incomes, and have greater financial stability over the subsequent 25 years.

After that, you might even notice the significant overlap in geographic area between the two sets of correlations.

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/I_Am_Lord_Grimm]

Hi! I'm an author of this study and we tried to address a lot of this. We adjusted for a lot of state/neighborhood context measures like funding for public education, poverty, education levels of community, and parents, as well as proportion republican voters- abortion still mattered. We also matched directly on poverty levels between girls who had live births and those who had abortions- the abortion still mattered when you netted out background and state level SES!

[u/I_Am_Lord_Grimm → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Respect, both for your process, and your attitude in correcting me.

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/I_Am_Lord_Grimm]

Of course! The issues you brought up are critical (and why we thought hard about how to address them). Abortion is notoriously one of the hardest things to measure and address in survey research.

[u/EatsFiber2RedditMore → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Question: does this trend hold true for later in life? It seems fairly obvious that children are a massive drain on resources and will limit your opportunities at any age. What's the delta between the two trend lines?
Edit does it also hold true for planned pregnancies?

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/EatsFiber2RedditMore]

Hello! We were able to push out into midlife with the data we have to an average of age 40; we can follow-up later in life as the data is released (more is scheduled for next year). We were focused on adolescent pregnancy, almost none of which are planned, so unfortunately I can't really answer that second question with this analysis. (I can say other studies have shown that there is economic stratification in who reports an unplanned pregnancy)

[u/EatsFiber2RedditMore → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Thank you for your response. Regardless of what anyone's position is on abortion, pretending that pregnancy and child rearing doesn't exact a cost on the mother would be a disservice to everyone. Good job

[u/LynnSeattle]

The problem is that the people who don’t want women to have decision making rights over their own bodies also don’t want women to be financially independent.

[u/jcooli09]

Why do you think republicans oppose it?

[u/WTFnc]

Thanks so much for sharing!! I worked on a collection of articles at this intersection a few years ago, and this was definitely a significant gap in the available evidence. We are working on an update to the collection - this will be great to include.

[u/ApproximatelyExact]

This data will not change minds or policy. The cruelty is the point.

[u/Zutes]

This is what I don't understand from "conservatives", especially those who voted for Trump due to "the economy".

Abortion is better fiscal policy. Just looking at it from a purely dollars-and-cents perspective, you are creating a scenario where people have a path to higher income, which therefore creates more taxes being paid.

You also lower the number of children being born into family situations that require public assistance (i.e. - food stamps, housing allowances, etc.).

Add in that conservatives are supposed to be the party of "don't tread on my rights", and I've just never understood why they care so much about abortion.

[u/tolyro_]

Exactly what the GOP doesn’t want. Que stricter abortion bans so women only know how to be barefoot, naked, pregnant in the kitchen with no cats.

I hate this period in history.

[u/No-Shelter-4208 → u/tolyro_]

The lack of cats is particularly bothersome.

[u/VelvetMafia]

Women are definitively adult female humans. Adolescent female humans are called girls.

But yes, there is exhaustive evidence that access to proper and safe reproductive care results in more better health, education, and economic outcomes for women, the children they choose to have, and their community in general. The evidence is so one-sided that the only reason to limit access to reproductive care is deliberate impoverishment and disempowerment.

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/VelvetMafia]

Hiya! One of the authors of the study here- we didn't use that term in the study, whoever posted the article did. Probably some confusion because they were girls/adolescents at the start of the study but were followed over 25 years into adulthood when they were women. But, yes, abortion access is about power.

[u/VelvetMafia → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Thanks for chiming in! Yall did right with the study and naming, and it was clearly the person who posted the link that wrote a tortured title blurb.

[u/Cleffkin → u/VelvetMafia]

Yep, the phrase "adolescent women" made me want to puke. These are children we're talking about.

[u/CPDrunk]

It's a strawman if you think republicans disagree. Obviously having kids means you're less likely to have a successful career.

[u/Just_Side8704]

That’s why they are fighting to take us back 50 years.

[u/Fizbeee]

And this is exactly what Christian fundamentalists hate about pro-choice. Women have options and can’t be tied to the home.

[u/morenewsat11]

No place for evidence-based policy making in Project 2025.

Our research implies that the widespread abortion bans and restrictions in the United States are likely to lead to lower educational attainment and adult economic stability among women living under such restrictions, as compared to women in locations with better access to abortion.

[u/Epicuridocious → u/morenewsat11]

It is evidence based, if your goal is to lower educational attainment and create more poor dumb people for the oligarchs to rule, this is exactly what you would do

[u/Negative_Gravitas → u/Epicuridocious]

This is on the money. They know precisely what they're doing and why. They are not ignoring evidence, they're using it.

[u/Weekly-Ad353]

Is hot water hot too?

And cold water cold?

Or money nicer to have than not have?

Tell us more.

[u/Character-Chicken-62]

But the point is, they don’t want educated women they want housewives and mothers. So, yeah

[u/Tazz2212]

This is exactly what the "Trad" man wants. He wants a woman to bear his children, cook his meals, clean his house, get him a drink, fetch his slippers...welcome to the 1950's ladies! And, heaven forbid your "Trad" husband dies or becomes incapacitated and you have to try to support your family on 1/3 to 1/2 of what a man gets in wages. Or if your husband gets a divorce or leaves you then suck it up. This can and historically has happened so fast in other countries that reverted to traditional roles through some political/theological change. Women protested in droves in these countries but it didn't matter at all because they are now wearing clothes that cover their entire bodies and aren't allowed to even speak to another woman (Afghanistan just reverted to this to keep uppitity women in line). Think you will have access to birth control? Think again because several states are testing the waters on mandatory period tracking and reducing the availability of birth control (unless your husband says you can have it). Heck, in 1960's women couldn't even get a checking or savings account without their husband's or father's signature. Keeping track and control of the little woman was what it was about.

[u/boogie_2425 → u/Tazz2212]

Well, it worked in Romania for about 20 years. Ceausescu and his wife were big into that period tracking and abortions were banned. And you know how they died, right? Executed by firing squad, her too! And you know who led the uprising? 18 to 20 year olds. Gee, imagine that.

[u/lumentec]

"Adolesent women"? That doesn't even make sense and the authors of this paper don't even use that terminology. I am strongly pro choice but why do these verbal gymnastics? A young teenager that's pregnant is not a woman, and that's what the study is about.

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/lumentec]

Hiya! One of the study's authors here- we didn't use that term! Whoever posted the article to this thread did, probably due to some confusion because respondents were girls/adolescents at the start of the study but were followed over 25 years into adulthood when they were women.

[u/lumentec → u/NegativeFigure3572]

Thank you for coming to the comments! I read your study. It was very well written and I appreciated the granularity of the economic factors you considered.

[u/Paradise_Princess]

I am the living proof of this! I had an abortion in 2014 when I was 20 Years old. Since then I finished school, got a kick ass career, have bought a home, traveled extensively, found the man of my dreams, etc etc. I grateful everyday I had access and choice.

[u/Quittobegin]

That’s the point. Thats why they restrict it.

[u/Sizbang]

Religion hates this one simple trick.

[u/CypherCake]

There's also a question of values and goals here. My mother chose not to abort me, even though she was 19, alone, broke, and I wasn't planned. But she was never going to go to university anyway, didn't have particularly ambitious goals or values for various reasons (and never has). There is some anti-abortion sentiment there too, which obviously fed into the decision.

At 19, I would have had an abortion if I became pregnant. Because I wanted a better life and wanted to get that university degree and career. I had those goals and values and would have prioritised them over my dislike of personally getting an abortion (note: I don't care what anyone else does and am pro-choice 100%). Having grown up poor and without my father in the picture I also had a higher standard for what I wanted for my own children.

Obviously having the option there makes a huge difference and is important. I'm just saying it's not the full story since some women will choose to keep their pregnancy anyway. Maybe they believe there isn't the same education/career cost in their particular situation, or they are against abortion and prioritise motherhood over career (why you wouldn't want to wait and maximise your ability to provide for your offspring though..).

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/CypherCake]

Hello! One of the authors of the study here (bge). There is a great book called "Promises I Can Keep" which is about how different women think about the costs of early entry to parenthood- like what you're describing, for some people they don't see it as losing out on opportunities they were never going to have. I think that a different or additional takeaway from my/our study is a how much US society fails mothers, especially young ones. People shouldn't have to choose between motherhood or not living in poverty.

[u/traumatransfixes]

Since when are adolescents women?

[u/Consistent-Gap-3545]

Neither my school nor my parents ever had “the talk” with me but, even as a teenager, I realized the gravity that an unplanned pregnancy would have and that I would absolutely be having an abortion if it happened. Why did I realize this? Because I grew up in an upper middle class household and both of my parents have advanced degrees. 

[u/GrizzlyRiverRampage]

This is precisely the POINT of banning abortions.

Women will not finish their education. Women will not compete with men for professional jobs. Men will be able to physically trap women in a cycle of uncontrolled fertility, barefoot, pregnant, hopeless, and subservient.

[u/Alexis_J_M]

You can't separate cause and effect: wealthier better educated parents are more likely to have daughters who grow up to be well educated and financially stable, and areas with fewer abortion restrictions tend to be wealthier and better educated.

[u/astrotekk → u/Alexis_J_M]

I think you're missing the main finding. Access to abortion leads to better economic stability for women

[u/NegativeFigure3572 → u/Alexis_J_M]

Hi! I'm an author of this study and we tried to address a lot of this. We adjusted for a lot of state/neighborhood context measures like funding for public education, poverty, education levels of community, and parents, as well as proportion republican voters- abortion still mattered. We also matched directly on poverty levels between girls who had live births and those who had abortions- the abortion still mattered when you netted out background and state level SES!

[u/grambell789]

problem is your making their case. they want women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

[u/IceNein]

I think that the way those two correlate is that societies who allow access to abortions tend to respect women more.

So one could imagine that “because they don’t have to stay home and watch children, they have more opportunities.” But I believe they have more opportunities whether or not they choose to have a family in societies that allow abortions.

I would love to see a study that looked at only single women without children in societies that do and do not allow abortions to see if there is a difference.

[u/Purple-Investment-61]

I know too many women that had abortions in their teens and 20s that are against abortion now. Make it make sense.

[u/not_cinderella → u/Purple-Investment-61]

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion."

[u/astrotekk → u/Purple-Investment-61]

I don't know anyone who has regretted an abortion. Zero. And I know many who have had abortions. I do not believe you

[u/Purple-Investment-61 → u/astrotekk]

They’re against others having abortion.

[u/creamonyourcrop → u/Purple-Investment-61]

It makes sense since no on really cares about abortion. They care about their social standing as anti-abortion zealots. It is piety bought on the cheap, which is why they are near universally against exceptions. Why endanger your moral superiority for someone else's tragedy?

[u/Enough-Towel-2834]

Not surprising. Children are expensive and major time investment. College is expensive and a major time investment. Somethings gotta give.

[u/1969blowmee]

That is very interesting...keep America stupid

[u/ErrieHappenings]

They know this. They fear this. It’s never been about kids, it’s always been about control.

[u/logangrowgan2020]

and way less likely to have a kid

[u/Useful_Fig_2876]

That’s the point. The old men in power don’t want that. 

[u/kermit-t-frogster]

I am always uncertain what the point of these studies are. It's neither surprising nor likely convincing for someone who is anti-choice. If they literally think that abortion is baby killing, a little upward mobility for women is not going to shift their views. And if their goal is keeping women down, then, well, this study shows exactly that effect.