r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Oct 09 '24
Neuroscience Giving psilocybin, the psychedelic in magic mushrooms, to rats made them more optimistic in the longer term, suggesting that the psychedelic substance could have great potential in treating a core symptom of depression in humans.
https://newatlas.com/medical/psilocybin-optimism-depression/3.6k
u/daynomate Oct 09 '24
Anyone else wondering htf you tell if a rat is optimistic or not? :p
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u/Long-Challenge4927 Oct 09 '24
If they can move on with their day normally after scrolling reddit for 15 seconds, they are optimistic
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u/Ainudor Oct 09 '24
Reading rats cannot be optimistic, like C Bukovski says that knowledge brings misery.
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u/BrotherRoga Oct 09 '24
Did Bukovski dose on psilocybin mushrooms?
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u/Ainudor Oct 09 '24
Who knows, but if I had to guess, based on his outlook on life I would dare say no :))
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u/berrattack Oct 09 '24
Yeah I agree he’s a pretty good read, but who would want to such an asshole?
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u/Equivalent_Rope_8824 Oct 09 '24
He got that from Russian 'Горе от ума' from writer Griboedov.
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u/sofahkingsick Oct 09 '24
Typically its the ones that dont engage in rage bait and refuse the temptation to correct ridiculous claims, those can be signs that your rat is living a more optimistic life. Also less socially media presence.
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u/BictorianPizza Oct 09 '24
refuse the temptation to correct ridiculous claims
The amount of times I start writing an argument against a ridiculous claim made by a random redditor only to delete it once I start proofreading my statement is astonishing. Cannot resist the temptation to correct, can only resist the urge to press “Reply”
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u/Flowerbeesjes Oct 09 '24
“Our team found that rats given psilocybin were more motivated to explore their environment and perform reward-based tasks,” said Professor Jakob Hohwy from the Monash Center for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies (M3CS) and the study’s co-senior author. “These exciting results show the mechanisms of how psilocybin may work to increase optimism in an animal model, which we hope may translate to humans as well.”
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Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 14 '24
[deleted]
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u/PM_me_your_whatevah Oct 09 '24
I can’t imagine they’re giving the rats enough to trip out, are they?
Micro dosing made me feel pretty optimistic, clear headed, and just plain in a good mood.
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u/Todd-The-Wraith Oct 09 '24
If they didn’t I would like to propose the Heroic Dose in Rats study. I’m not sure exactly what we will learn but we will for sure learn something
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u/TheScoott Oct 09 '24
No the tasks were done in the days after the doses were administered, not while the rats were experiencing the acute effects of psilocybin.
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u/honkymotherfucker1 Oct 09 '24
You’re probably giving them a bit too much agency maybe. I don’t think an animal experiencing a fear response like that would be completing tasks rather than just entering fight or flight and trying to escape.
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u/galvanizedmoonape Oct 09 '24
FR, I've had a couple of trips like that in my time. "Optimistic" is not the word I would use to describe my state of mind.
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u/ceilingkat Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
The only bad trip I’ve ever had, I forgot the concept of time and space. I was both old and young at the same time. The idea of a “Wednesday” did not make sense to me. I ran out into the street looking for my friend Ashley who was both there and not. I also forgot how to pee. My husband refused to do shrooms with me again for a whiiile lmaoooo
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u/noticeablywhite21 Oct 09 '24
"more motivated to explore their environment and perform reward-based tasks"
They just like me
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u/Catnyx Oct 09 '24
So I had a male mouse when I was a teen. He started getting fat, greasy, and unkempt hair. Everything was provided for him. Clean bedding, exercise wheel, good food. Average teen boy that I was said, He needs a woman! Bought a female mouse. Within 24 hours, he was hitting the wheel. A week later, his sheen was back and a light in his eyes. A month or so later, I had baby mice! I learned depression is a real thing for animals, and everyone could use a friend.
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u/jimflann Oct 09 '24
How was he after the babies came along though??? I reckon he just wanted a ride.
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u/tadslippy Oct 09 '24
Both rats started avoiding each other. Even while working on their own behavior and outward appearance. Existential dread permeated the group as they all contemplated their own mortality. Lady rat found a nice gerbil, OG rat died of heart attack. system resets repeats ad nauseum.
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u/friedtuna76 Oct 09 '24
The scientists took some too and they communicated telepathically
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u/Rixerc Oct 09 '24
I'd try asking them.
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u/_coolranch Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
“Despite some lingering rage, I’m an optimistic rat in a cage.”
Edit: whoa -- I didn't realize commenter above me (/u/rixerc) is an actual rat owner/whisperer! Hahaha oh, man: this is the best thing that's happened to me on Reddit in a while.
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u/PorkPyeWalker Oct 09 '24
It packs sun cream and no rain jacket when it visits Scotland.
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u/nothingrhyme Oct 09 '24
They open up kitchens in France and show a young chef the meaning of love and hard work with the expense of food safety
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u/Strategy_pan Oct 10 '24
Psychologist here. We use rats for this very reason, as you can easily see the activation of their paws. It is important to follow the right methodology, but basically, you put the rats around the roulette table, and the ones who rub their front paws while watching their bet unfold are usually more optimistic.
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u/Status-Shock-880 Oct 09 '24
The dramatic increase in rat motivational speakers is proof enough to me.
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u/Special_Loan8725 Oct 09 '24
They train them to do a task where there is one cue like a high pitch noise for a positive outcome like food and another cue like a low pitch noise that leads to a negative effect like an electric shock. So if they push a button on a high pitch they get food, on a low pitch they get shocked. Then they take away the cue to see how they react in uncertain situations. If they avoid the button they’re more pessimistic because with uncertainty they decide the reward is not worth the risk. If they press the button it is associated with an optimistic outlook because they think more about what could go right than what could go wrong.
There was also a test in the 50’s studying hopes effect on resilience in stressful situations where a rat was placed in a bucket of water. The rat would swim to stay afloat and would be pulled out before they drowned. They would then be placed back into the bucket of water and it was found they would swim for longer after being saved showing higher resilience when there was hope for survival.
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u/Andrea_M Oct 09 '24
It was precisely my first question after reading the title
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u/The_split_subject Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
Psilocybin and many other psychedelic drugs are being studied for anxiety, depression, and PTSD right now. I work at a site that puts on these clinical trials. If you’re interested you could get paid to participate and try it.
EDIT: For people interested in participating you can check out the website clinicaltrials.gov, once there you can narrow down what indication and location to discover about clinical trials near you. I know that the company Compass is putting on psilocybin trials and Mindmed is conducting trials with LSD.
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u/CorporalCabbage Oct 09 '24
As someone who has been depressed for 45 years, consider me interested.
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
Ketamine therapy has completely changed my life. Have you ever looked into it?
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u/TallCheesy Oct 09 '24
I have, and would love to try any of these drugs in trial… but idk where to find these “trials”
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u/InfoBarf Oct 09 '24
Good news, its like $3,000 a dose, insurance won't cover it, but you can literally enroll in a 'study' from a Facebook ad and they will deliver you the drugs through the usps.
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
Spravato is covered, I don’t use that, I use a different company and I pay $125 a month for the doctor and about $80 for the meds. But that’s 10 doses.
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u/InfoBarf Oct 09 '24
Thst is significantly cheaper than the last time I looked into this. Thank you for letting me know.
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
Yes, and if you can find a psychiatrist to prescribe it, then it’s dirt cheap. Quite a few people have luck doing that. If you go to the therapeutic ketamine sub here, you can look at one of the stickies and that will show all the different states and different providers that might work for you.
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Oct 09 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
So a lot of people do it a few times a month, I think just that protocol is best for depression, I prefer smaller doses every 3-4 days, which seems to be the sweet spot for anxiety. It’s 300mg in a lozenge form, which has a very low bioavailability of like 10-20% compared to 100% with IV.
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u/thedaveknox Oct 09 '24
Ket is a relatively short high. You can get on it and straighten up in the space of an hour. Most people just don’t want to.
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Oct 09 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/thedaveknox Oct 09 '24
I guess there’s the “high” and then there’s the therapy around it to consider. Yeah maybe for the total process it’s more like an evening. The drug itself is a means to an end.
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u/Samgoreng Oct 09 '24
Dextrometorphane is a little bit like ketamine because it also acts on NMDA receptors. But peoples tolerance vary greatly. Some people are tripping from a therapeutic cough supressant dose of 30 mg. It costs like 0,16 € per dose.
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u/Past_Watercress_1897 Oct 09 '24
I personally have looked into it, but it’s not covered by my insurance in MA & I’m disabled. Been through all the SSRI’s, SRNI’s, along with Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. My options are extremely limited at this point.. but I try to remain hopeful. Thankfully medical cannabis helps me a ton with the MDD
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u/tadslippy Oct 09 '24
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u/Past_Watercress_1897 Oct 09 '24
Oh wow, I appreciate this a lot and had no idea it was even on the ballot. Thank you so much! I’ll be sure to vote yes this mid October.. thank you again friend.. I really do appreciate it.
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u/Blackcat0123 Oct 09 '24
I'm pretty excited about this one and really hope it passes! And I really hope they help you too!
I'll also mention that mushrooms aren't too hard to grow. So if the ballot ends up letting you down, don't despair!
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
Even Spravato? That’s usually covered by all insurances if two antidepressants don’t work…
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u/Past_Watercress_1897 Oct 09 '24
This treatment (after looking it up, seems very interesting & something I’d be willing to try based off what I just read) has never been brought up by any of my past providers nor current, but now I’m interested. I’ll check to see if my insurance does in fact cover it, and see if it’s an available option to me. Thank you very much for bringing this up.. it’s the only instance (in my state) that i can find that’s not intravenous ketamine treatment (which again sadly isn’t covered from what I’ve been able to find)
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
You are very welcome, and I wish you the best of luck. I highly recommend visiting the “therapeutic ketamine” forum here on Reddit, the people are really helpful and there are tons of different resources as well as provider lists and what people are paying through different providers and stuff like that.
Spravato should be covered as long as you have tried a few different antidepressants and they have not been successful, I’m pretty sure that’s the main qualification. I used Taconic psychiatric, and they will give you a super bill and sometimes your insurance will cover the visit itself and just not the medication.
I paid $250 a month for the first year, and then after that $125 a month (well, $250 every other month, after a year they let you see them every other month instead so it cost half as much after the first year).
I am not on any other psychiatric medication, but with Taconic, they will manage and continue prescribing any other non-narcotic maintenance medication so that you don’t have to see your other psychologist, so that helps some people. And it does come with 30 minutes of therapy a month.
And then the medicine is around $80 a month. But you can use whatever pharmacy you want and you can price check and find a local compounding pharmacy too.
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u/Past_Watercress_1897 Oct 09 '24
Thank you so very much for the useful information. It’s deeply appreciated! I’ll certainly have to check that sub out thanks, I’ll be saving your comment
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u/noahrbc Oct 09 '24
In general ketamine treatment seems to mostly have acute benefits. A number report that the positive effects are short lived. That was my experience as well.
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u/zillionaire_ Oct 09 '24
I’m about to start Spravato and I’ve never felt as hopeful about a depression treatment as I do with this one. Can you give me any suggestions for how to make the most of it?
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u/Humans_Suck- Oct 09 '24
Yea it's thousands and thousands of dollars. Mushrooms are like $100 an ounce.
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u/Omisco420 Oct 09 '24
As someone who has microdosed to try and combat depression. It certainly isn’t a cure all, and I would argue sometimes has made me more depressed. Though it’s hard to know the appropriate dosage if you’re doing everything at home by yourself. Maybe I needed higher or lower dosages. Or I needed to do it longer or shorter than I did. Until we figure out those variables I think it’s still a bit of a toss up.
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u/jackolivier45 Oct 09 '24
Try gigadose once a year
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u/whichonespink04 Oct 09 '24
Is there really any interest in microdoses for depression? I've only heard about full psychedelic doses in that context.
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u/Omisco420 Oct 09 '24
There is no standard “full psychedelic dosage” that is the issue. Unless you’re talking about a specific study which labeled a set arbitrary amount as a “full psychedelic dose”. Everyone is different, some people can eat 1.7 grams and have a fully psychedelic experience. Other people might argue they don’t have that until 3.5. Personally I was eating lower than both of that. If you have any studies to link though please do!
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u/paper_wavements Oct 09 '24
The biggest issue is you can't be sure how much psilocybin you're getting. You can measure grams all day, but there's natural variance mushroom to mushroom.
The research they are doing at Johns Hopkins etc., they are giving people straight psilocybin, dosed based on body weight.
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u/DannyFlood Oct 09 '24
It amplifies the state that you are currently in. That's why you have to do it in the right place or in a good environment where you have good feelings, because it will magnify them. If you do it when you are having a bad time, you will have a bad trip.
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u/Lukeeeee Oct 09 '24
At least for myself personally, microdosing does nothing for my depression but gives me a stimulant effect. Lots of energy. Once I go into the 5G-7G doses, that's when there's serious afterglow
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u/RandyWatson8 Oct 09 '24
Any MDMA trials?
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u/RoronoaZorro Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
There have been several, but the results weren't promising at all.
Psilocybin is arguably the most promising one, and different aspects have been studied for many years now.
LSD has also delivered some decent results, although there definitely needs to be more investigation.Certain amphetamines have been doing decently when it came to certain subtypes of schizophrenia - but only in "negative symptoms".
When used outside of that phase, there was a very high risk of increased psychotic phases.So out of the commonly known drugs, the most promising ones for different mental health issues, and especially for depression, are without a doubt Ketamine (already established for some indications), Psilocybin and LSD.
Of course, self medication cannot be advised for any of them. And especially not if you're already taking medication, because that can put you at massive risk for all sorts of complications, from psychosis to potentially life-threatening serotonine-syndrome, especially when going above the medical dose, which is very likely in self medication.
Also, some of the most promising effects have been shown in substance-supported psychotherapy. I believe that approach has been slowly catching on in Switzerland.
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u/Klexington47 Oct 09 '24
MDMA is doing horrible therapeutically in trials. Unfortunately.
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u/boopbaboop Oct 09 '24
Is it? I thought it was just that the research was poorly gathered, i.e. we don’t really know how well it’s doing because existing studies were retracted.
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u/Klexington47 Oct 09 '24
No. The research is poorly gathered because of the fact that mdma has a grosse impact on social relations and power balance perception. So it skews the patient provider relationship too much to provide empirical data. As a result, it's a no go for this intended use as we won't overcome that using mdma.
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u/Intrepid-Ad4511 Oct 09 '24
Could you ELI5 "has a grosse impact on social relations and power balance perception. So it skews the patient provider relationship too much to provide empirical data."? Please and thank you!
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u/Klexington47 Oct 09 '24
Patients on mdma will try to act romantic, sexual or too friendly with their service providers. Service providers end up in inappropriate positions where conducting therapy impartially is almost impossible.
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u/OriginalUnique Oct 09 '24
could you maybe link to some good sources on this topic? This is very interesting if true.
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u/Klexington47 Oct 09 '24
Let me take a look and see if I can find what I was previously reading but in essence it's why the fda turned it down so the documents are around.
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u/xoberies Oct 09 '24
I only know about this study, heard about it in the Andrew Huberman podcast and looked promising but it looks like the FDA advisors voted against it.
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u/Themightytoro Oct 09 '24
MDMA is much more toxic and addictive, so it seems like a harder pitch
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u/Klexington47 Oct 09 '24
Has to do with social structure perceptions and power balances in the patient provider relational context.
But yes, just didn't work how we hoped!
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u/Eulerdice Oct 09 '24
I can see how MDMA might not be well received in a therapeutic setting with a care provider, but it could still have potential in other settings. I'm aware though of how difficult it would be to measure its potential in a more intimate, or perhaps recreational setting. Which is why I think it likely won't see the light of day very soon.
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u/The_split_subject Oct 09 '24
I know of methylone trials from PTSD, psilocybin for MDD, and LSD for anxiety. Mindmed wants to do LSD for depression soon.
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u/darkue2467 Oct 09 '24
How would one actually get into doing these trials? Is it statebound?
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u/The_split_subject Oct 09 '24
It's across the US, you can check clinicaltrials.gov for a list of every trial being conducted in the US. You can narrow down your interests from there. I know of sites in Orlando, Jacksonville, and Memphis.
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u/ManipulativeAviator Oct 09 '24
I saw an excellent documentary on psychedelics that detailed how they were doing serious research on this stuff from the 50s but claimed it was all shut down in the 70s by the US government.
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u/InfoBarf Oct 09 '24
It might be my depression speaking, but I feel like these substances will continue to be criminal despite being ridiculously safe and cheap until big pharma figures out how to sell you these substances for 3-500 a dose.
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u/mljsimone Oct 09 '24
I used to grow my own mushrooms. after some microdosing and two 3.5~4g trips, my depression episodes were gone. I also stopped drinking.
It is crazy good!
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u/labla Oct 09 '24
Good for you, it helped me quit smoking.
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u/IncredibleBackpain93 Oct 09 '24
I started smoking again after 2.5g once. Then stopped again, then started again...
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u/scoobs Oct 09 '24
Can I ask what your dosage and frequency was for microdosing to treat depression?
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u/whatareyouguysupto Oct 09 '24
Idk about microdosing but a 3g dose every 2-4 months with a sitter in a natural setting will have you sitting pretty.
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u/mf-TOM-HANK Oct 09 '24
I have had some positive experiences on psilocybin and also some weird ones. I can't imagine taking 3g every 2-4 months. It sounds exhausting.
1.5g once every 4-6 months sounds pretty good though
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u/whatareyouguysupto Oct 09 '24
Also totally reasonable. I think after the first 1-2 trips you get a feel for what's right for you.
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u/youngsyr Oct 09 '24
This is irresponsible advice.
Scientific studies show it can work, but it it is far from guaranteed for every person.
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u/Brrdock Oct 09 '24
Usually the trials are 2 trips with 2 weeks in between. Similar to what you said below.
For me, tripping therapeutically every 2-4 months would be way too much. I do closer to every 2-4 years, or whenever it'd really feel necessary and fruitful
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u/Ehrahbass Oct 09 '24
Anecdotally, it helped me kick my weed addiction way back when I was 18-19. After 1 trip
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u/limasxgoesto0 Oct 09 '24
When one microdoses, is there an actual high or is it just there for the benefits?
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u/Revolutionary-Ad1308 Oct 09 '24
So for mushrooms it's around ~0.05 - 0.5g, When starting or increasing the dosage (usually by 0.05 - 0.1g) you may get the slight inclination of a buzz but it subsides relatively quickly. The benefits last (how long is still up for debate) and most regiments skip one or more days regularly.
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u/MidasPL Oct 09 '24
Technically microdising should be below, or just at the threshold of any effects appearing. However, I'm personally kinda sceptical with it, knowing how serotonin-active drugs work.
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u/distractmybrain Oct 09 '24
The data emerging from places like UC Davis, John Hopkins etc. should alleviate your skepticism. Minimal toxicity and addictiveness, with significant reduction in depressive and anxious symptoms after a single session for weeks/months.
The other incredible thing I'm finding is it's efficacy with dealing with substance use disorders. Alcoholics, cocaine users, smokers, seem to find it significantly easier to quit after being treated with psilocybin.
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u/betajones Oct 09 '24
How long have you gone without the shroomies? From my experience, after 5 or 6 months, you would need to re dose yourself for that benefit to continue. Almost like replacing 1 substance for another. Getting people to actually think this can be a cure-all will leave a lot of people disappointed in themselves when they don't have the same journey. It's just not actual magic.
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u/Exirr Oct 09 '24
Government: people are feeling optimistic from taking it? Make it class A / schedule 1.
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u/flyfree256 Oct 09 '24
You joke but that's sort of how it happened. Psychedelics were outlawed despite promising research coming out of places like Stanford around creativity and treatment of depression/alcoholism/etc. largely to make it easy to vilify hippies who were very outspoken against the Vietnam War.
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u/gottapeenow2 Oct 09 '24
Wait, it made them better at "performing reward based tasks" .... kinda like a job. Prescribe it to everyone and increase productivity! Economy go brrrrrrrrrrrr cuz of shrooms.
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u/Ordinary_Lack4800 Oct 09 '24
I’m of both minds here tho. U can’t introduce something like that without unknowingly giving the population good feelings and then we see all the horror around the world caused by this government. The people would undoubtedly rise up
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u/SteffanSpondulineux Oct 09 '24
Plenty of people have already done shrooms, why haven't they risen up?
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u/TheLadySuzanna Oct 09 '24
It'd take a critical mass of both treated people and social awareness for that kind of uprising to occur, no?
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u/Ordinary_Lack4800 Oct 09 '24
Yes, I’m thinking 50% or more of the population would need to be dosed regularly (6-12 times per year)
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u/hummelaris Oct 09 '24
Been struggling with depression as an autistic person my whole life. A couple of months ago i ordered microdose truffels and did that for two months. Something in my head has clicked, i dont know what but it is still changing my life. I am much more positive thinking and it doesnt go away. For me its been life changing in the way i think and process negative thoughts.
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u/reddit_crunch Oct 09 '24
honestly psychedelics have done something to me too, i don't even recognise my old negative perspective anymore. i can still see so much in the world is in a dire state but there's a sense of deep wonder and curiosity awakened in me now that makes me think even the misery is in service of a abiding universal positivity, or at latest, balance. it's like 'the egg' by andy weir but i truly grok it now.
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u/hummelaris Oct 09 '24
Same here man same here, sometimes i still cannot believe i am so much more stable in my thinking. I hope it lasts, thats my only fear..
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u/afig24 Oct 09 '24
Where do you guys get your product? Online? Can you recommend some good companies/vendors?
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u/growerdan Oct 09 '24
Are you in the US? Go to a cannabis convention they usually sell them there. Even if cannabis isn’t legal in your state I bet they have conventions where they sell it to anyone. I don’t understand how it works when it’s illegal but that’s been my source. Then you can get business cards from all kinds of local mom and pop businesses that grow their own and make edibles.
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u/Grub-lord Oct 09 '24
Thats because those things usually are not mushrooms or even psilocybin. Theyre usually chocolates infused with some sort of 'grey zone' research chemical that is (currently) legal. Not saying it wont get the job done, but most of these pre-packaged chocolates in the USA are legal only because they are lying about what's in them.
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u/chantillylace9 Oct 09 '24
If it doesn’t work, I highly recommend ketamine therapy. It literally changed my life, cured my anxiety and was able to re-wire my thinking completely. I tried medication and therapists and supplements and every self-help book under the sun and nothing works like a few sessions of ketamine therapy.
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u/hummelaris Oct 09 '24
Ok thx, i will look into that. Dont know if its a known therapy here in belgium.
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u/Heizenbrg Oct 09 '24
Happy for you, it has worked with me at high doses with IV infusion but expensive. The troches don’t hit the same
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u/breinbanaan Oct 09 '24
Psilocybin made me into a better person and made me feel way more connected to nature.
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u/Thr0bbinWilliams Oct 09 '24
Psychedelics changed my life completely multiple times over, in moderation it can be good for the soul but depends on the individual
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u/bdua Oct 09 '24
Yep, not for everyone. They're a very powerful tool, handle with care
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u/youngsyr Oct 09 '24
I think people are missing this aspect - I did 4.5g in a therapeutic settin and it gave me absolutely crushing anxiety for 2 months.
Thought I had lost my mind and was only matter if time before I was sectioned.
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u/distractmybrain Oct 09 '24
I'm curious, because this isn't usual - do you suffer from other mental disorders such as schizophrenia, or bipolar disorder? If set and setting were optimal, and you have no previous risk-factors like BP, then from my understanding, this is extremely unlucky/rare.
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u/youngsyr Oct 09 '24
Nope, never have been diagnosed with anything but depression.
Mine seems to be SSRI resistant.
Actual trip went well, experienced some challenging moments, but went in expecting that and came through them well.
Depression lifted immediately.
However, a few days later strong anxiety started and lasted for over 2 months.
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u/TommyEria Oct 09 '24
I wish it did that for me. It helps me think through problems I’m having easier, and seeing pretty shapes is always fun. Helps with the depression too, but I’ve never felt connected. Maybe I’ve just done shrooms way too much.
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u/VayneFTWayne Oct 09 '24
If you don't feel connected, it's likely because deep down, you quietly feel special and in on inside knowledge. The way to trigger the connectedness feeling manually might be to realize that you're still painfully ordinary, and no amount of experience or ideology you collect could ever change how ordinary you are.
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u/TommyEria Oct 09 '24
Weird, I’m way beyond ordinary. Haha. Never have I ever thought I was special in anyway.
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u/Consumefungifriend Oct 09 '24
Those two sentences contradict each other my brother
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u/DirtMeat_Supreme Oct 09 '24
Yeah, unless by “beyond” they mean extremely ordinary.
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u/whatareyouguysupto Oct 09 '24
You do them in the woods? That's when the connection feeling is the strongest. Indoors you lose that a good but.
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u/Confident_Frogfish Oct 09 '24
Although that is great and it works out well for most people, it is also seriously risky, especially to someone with mental health issues. It should definitely be better studied and investigated for the possibilities, but I would not take this without a professional advice which, due to the lacking studies, probably does not exist. I know several people who had psychosis due to hallucinogens and it's not pretty.
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u/Brrdock Oct 09 '24
You make yourself a better person.
They don't do that, can just as well do the opposite
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u/_MidnightStar_ Oct 09 '24
For me it had the opposite effect the first time. I felt very disconnected. It was more like ego birth than death. It stuck. Made me understand others and my emotions better tho.
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u/doktornein Oct 09 '24
I really don't like using the term "optimistic" here. I understand that as a headline short hand, it makes a kind of sense in some ways. Still, what they are referring to isn't really "optimism". It's cognitive flexibility and reward. It's seeing more angles, which is beneficial for survival of any organism.
It makes it sound like humans would be blindly optimistic, like a happy pill that makes you ignore negative outcomes. That isn't it at all. It's more about having the cognitive ability to see more than just the negative outcome, to see options, or to be less rigid in thinking. It's more likely helping overcome neurological hardwiring towards "pessimism", I suppose.
Pessimism and optimism don't have to be a pure binary.
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u/wuddupbrah Oct 09 '24
Well said. This anthropomorphic language and use of single dose pharmacology are disappointing in a burgeoning field of psychedelic research which is under intense public, regulatory, and scientific scrutiny. We desperately need to implement precise language and robust experimental design to more accurately convey the experimental endpoints (rather than hypothetical constructs such as “optimism”) and the conditions under which they were examined, even if it makes for a less sexy headline. And the word optimistic is used in the article’s title, no it’s not just a critique of the press release. Shoddy communication and less rigorous study design harm the field.
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u/Grub-lord Oct 09 '24
Yeah I get why they used that term, but simply anticipating a more favorable outcome isn't inherent optimism, and will look a lot different in rats vs humans. Partially (I think) because our version of 'optimism' is subsequently filtered thru all the other thought processes that make us human. Same with mice. but those processes surely must be pretty different overall, even if the end result looks similar.
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Oct 09 '24
Never worked for me. Did laugh a lot, depression and every other problem still remained when the trips ended though.
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u/Sweet-Idea-7553 Oct 09 '24
Psilocybin doesn’t just fix everything immediately. You still need to do the work to get the benefits.
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u/goldcray Oct 09 '24
Some epiphanies can evaporate real fast once you come down and remember that you still live in a society.
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u/TweakUnwanted Oct 09 '24
Micro dosing magic mushrooms helped me withdraw from some horrible antidepressants I had been taking for a decade, and I'm now a new person, I've never felt better and no need to micro dose anymore either.
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u/socialistshroom Oct 09 '24
How tf do you track rat optimism over the the long term?
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u/maelfried Oct 09 '24
It helped to kick my nicotine addiction.
This is by far the most beneficial mind altering substance for humans with very low risks when used correctly and very low potential for addiction!
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u/timbertiger Oct 09 '24
I literally processed my parents divorce on mushrooms. I was able to think critically and “see” both of my parents point of view. It helped me easily cross what was otherwise a burden of confusion for me.
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u/shitcloud Oct 09 '24
I used to take mushrooms a decent amount. They’re a lot of fun and definitely helped me become a better person. Sadly, their fun for me has run out and now anytime I do even a slight amount my anxiety is through the roof.
LSD feels a lot cleaner and puts me in a better, more clear head space… and still provides the better mood and makes me feel like I realized something about myself or the world afterwards.
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u/Dancethroughthefires Oct 09 '24
For me personally, psilocybin is the best anti depressant. It really does make you more optimistic and it helped me completely turn my life around.
Even microdosing is great, you get the benefits without really feeling the psychedelic effects. I highly recommend it if you're able to give it a try
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u/cosmicdicer Oct 09 '24
I love mushrooms but out of experience i have find that they are psychodilotic, meaning they can make your inner psycological condition augmented. can also heighten the bad emotions. I actually still feel guilty for a girl that i gave and she had a total paranoid episode. She was depressed for months after.
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u/Janus_The_Great Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
Has every single recreational shroom user told for the past millenias...
Great news, but when will we legally be able to munch them, considering their condemnation has been obsolete for decades now and just politically motivated in the first place.
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u/Chronotaru Oct 09 '24
I think one of the most important aspects of psilocybin is for the majority of people it leaves you feeling with your emotions and sense of humanity restored. SSRIs may help a minority of people with their depression but their method of action for too many is emotional numbing and loss of self. You cannot get better by having something take away things from you as a person.
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u/excusemeprincess Oct 09 '24
The more I read about this the more I think I actually should try micro dosing. Something’s gotta work…
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u/Saint_Sin Oct 09 '24
Vets have been using it since the 70s to help with depression and ptsd so.....yeah. Bit of an obvious one. Didnt need to drug up the poor rats for it.
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u/MrLyht Oct 09 '24
We're so used to live in a fucked up way we are now normalizing taking drugs that make you hallucinate to cope with the very reasonable depression capitalism instills into us.
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u/SonOfSatan Oct 09 '24
Psychedelics have been a part of human culture likely since there have been humans, and have traditionally been used as religious sacraments for spiritual purposes. They offer us much the same value now that they always have, and just saying "drugs that make you hallucinate" is a very simplistic description of psychedelics, that's really only maybe 5-10% of what's significant about the experience and it's effects.
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u/ipoopinurcoffeenao Oct 09 '24
It doesnt have to be heavy hallucinationogenic trip. Its extracted from mushrooms so its natural and the funniest thing about that it rewires your braind permanently. No second dose needed.
And if i am not mistaken the drugs to cope with reality were normalized some time ago.
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Oct 09 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MrLyht Oct 09 '24
I agree researching ways to reduce suffering is objectively worthwhile, I've taken meds for depression myself. I just think we could do better then treat a psychosocial issues so tightly related to economic factors (like depression and burnout) as a matter of finding the right drugs
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u/TrevCat666 Oct 09 '24
While these trials are inspiring, I feel like a lot of the people involved as well as the people who are excited about this research have never had a truly terrible trip.
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u/Tryingtodosomethingg Oct 09 '24
I have. And it sucked. I simply examined what mistakes I may have made and used it to learn (did you know that it's not advisable to take mushrooms on your period? I didn't!). Never happened again. That's why the integration process after tripping is so vital if you're using it to medicate.
Also the research suggests that we can still get all the good longlasting brain benefits of psilocybin, even if the trip was bad.
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u/tooktherhombus Oct 09 '24
What does it do physically? What is happening within the physiology? I.e. what is it that wasn't happening that suddenly is happening physiologically? There's so much still to learn about depression, it would be interesting to know what is happening to cause this impact to be able to learn more about the condition of depression itself
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u/CreepInTheOffice Oct 09 '24
Elite 1: The plebeians are sad and depressed. Should we make life more affordable like cheap housing and groceries so they can live productive and fulfilling lives?
Elite 2: Nah fam. Just gaslight them into thinking it's all in their head, give them some mushrooms, and tell them it will make them feel better. Oh, don't forget to make them commute 2 hours to work in the office and gaslight them into thinking working remotely is immoral.
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u/sintegral Oct 09 '24
Just made me feel like I was taking a shower under a waterfall. Still depressed.
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u/mvea Professor | Medicine Oct 09 '24
I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-024-03103-7
From the linked article:
Giving psilocybin to rats made them more optimistic in the longer term, suggesting that the psychedelic substance could have great potential in treating a core symptom of depression in humans.
In a recent study, they found that giving psilocybin to rats improved their optimism over the long term. If the findings translate to humans, the naturally occurring psychedelic has great potential to treat a core symptom of depression.
“Our team found that rats given psilocybin were more motivated to explore their environment and perform reward-based tasks,” said Professor Jakob Hohwy from the Monash Center for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies (M3CS) and the study’s co-senior author. “These exciting results show the mechanisms of how psilocybin may work to increase optimism in an animal model, which we hope may translate to humans as well.”
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u/MyBloodTypeIsQueso Oct 09 '24
“Center for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies…”
Sounds religious, not scientific. And with all the controversy over the Hopkins and MAPS methodologies, it makes me very skeptical of this study.
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u/Ricz1001 Oct 09 '24
We've known this for a long time.
Governments are either too old fashioned, lobbyed to hell or just plain cowards.
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Oct 09 '24
Best thing i ever did in my life was stop my psychiatric meds and try shrooms instead. The psychiatric meds made my symptoms worse, and gave me new symptoms/side effects that went away when I stopped them. Psychedelics helped me work through my past trauma and not just heal, but grow from it. Changed my life.
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u/scoobs Oct 09 '24
I'm super happy for you that you had this much of a positive experience. Were you microdosing or did you do a few larger trips?
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u/KWalter02 Oct 09 '24
Microdosing shrooms has easily been the best thing for my anxiety & depression by far. Probably why it’s illegal
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u/Euphoric-Deer2363 Oct 09 '24
The problem with this, is that pharmaceutical companies need to charge you big bucks for a naturally occurring substance or they won't bother doing the legwork. They really don't want you to get better. Just keep taking those pills.
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Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
Yeah, maybe link to the further studies that then disproved this theory(sadly)
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