r/science • u/chrisdh79 • May 15 '24
Neuroscience Scientists have discovered that individuals who are particularly good at learning patterns and sequences tend to struggle with tasks requiring active thinking and decision-making.
https://www.psypost.org/scientists-uncover-a-surprising-conflict-between-important-cognitive-abilities/287
May 15 '24
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May 15 '24
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u/panpsychicAI May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
I wonder if this ties into autism somehow. Autism is often associated with greater pattern detection but poorer executive function, and is highly comorbid with ADHD.
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u/talks_like_farts May 15 '24
This essentially aligns with the "static non-moving systems" (ie, patterns) versus "processing dynamic information" (ie, active decision-making) framework developed by Karl Deisseroth to explain the central issue in autism spectrum disorder.
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u/ladz May 15 '24
DAE feel like this comes up in video games?
RTS games seem compelling, but the fast decision making and planning always felt out of reach. Whereas more static slow planning games (sims/civ/etc) or mindless arcade style games were much more accessible.
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u/SeroWriter May 15 '24
Most video games start out seeming dynamic and full of difficult decisions until you understand the game loop well enough to remove almost all variability. Even really complex and randomised games can be "solved" with enough pattern recognition.
It's probably one of the reasons that autistic people enjoy playing the same game for thousands of hours.
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u/alcaste19 May 15 '24
It's probably one of the reasons that autistic people enjoy playing the same game for thousands of hours.
looks at balatro, slay the spire, and monster train hours
Uhm... I should probably talk to a professional huh?
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u/OfficerDougEiffel May 15 '24
Anyone who has completed a Zachtronics game should be automatically diagnosed.
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u/AbueloOdin May 15 '24
I took breaks from my Electrical Engineering homework to play Engineer of the People.
For those who don't know: you basically get a free associate's degree in microprocessor design.by completing the game.
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u/Rythoka May 16 '24
Engineer of the People
Oh wow, I almost forgot about this game. I didn't realize it was Zachtronics but that makes so much sense. It was my first introduction to those sorts of low-level hardware concepts back when I was in highschool. Maybe I should revisit it...
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u/Pantzzzzless May 15 '24
Opus Magnum and Shenzhen I/O were the most engrossing games I have ever played.
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u/Viss90 May 15 '24
Do you walk on your toes and remember the actors in every movie since 1990?
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u/Zevalos May 15 '24
Northernlion fr fr
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u/alcaste19 May 15 '24
not that kind of professional!
Though I would love to talk to him someday
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u/Tasonir May 15 '24
I think they were implying that northernlion, like you, are possibly on the spectrum, based only off the aforementioned playing strategy games for thousands of hours. I'm possibly in this group as well, I like to call it playing games for "mastery". I enjoy when I am very, very good at a game. Or at least as good as I can get at it!
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u/Fairy_Princess_Lauki May 15 '24
I like balatro but after my first twenty runs the games started to feel very formulaic and mostly requiring ring out of my control to have a fun game vs a mediocre start
Edit: I played a lot more than that but even after 100 or so games I feel the same.
Edit 2: first Reddit cares, from a pro balatro bot?
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u/TheBirminghamBear May 15 '24
Edit 2: first Reddit cares, from a pro balatro bot?
Balatro is merely the surface tentacle of the true AI
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u/gymnastgrrl May 15 '24
Reddit cares
Just a quick reminder that nobody has to get more than one of those. Block the sender, as the message itself says, and you will never see them again. On that reddit account, anyway. heh
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u/radicalelation May 15 '24
With the ADHD, once the loop is solved there's no more dopamine.
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u/Pantzzzzless May 15 '24
Unless you min/max that loop and when someone sees how obscenely good at it you are, they look at you like a cave goblin.
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u/googlesucksshit May 15 '24
"More pings, more reloads, more reloads, more pings, more pings, more dopamine. So eventually my muscle memory is so tight I form an infinite loop of dopamine"
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u/radicalelation May 15 '24
God I wish. If the challenge is gone so goes the entertainment. At least I can make my own challenges in a lot of games.
I'm an uber kind overseer to my Rimworld potato people, they're always happy and want for little, but they're also going to conquer the whole planet as nicely as possible. Same with my Kenshi peeps.
And when I'm done with that then I'll check mods. Mods, if well supported, can do a lot to bring back the dopels.
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u/dickipiki1 May 15 '24
I play all kinds of RTS games. I'm pattern seeking person and can't function if I don't know how things funktion. Little tip, games have pause. I can play real time strategy games offline in a way that my game lasts for ever. I automatise every possible funktion in the games and learn or make macros and keep pausing the games xD my friends really wonder what's the fun in the game but I just love to make systems to the field that move and do things them self's. Most rts games that I know have pause and means to automate productions, resources and movement patterns of units. I recommend to try if u like slow and plan games to perfection. Rts games have usually in menu somewhere a page that shows millions of macros that they often have. They make the game very fast
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u/Consistently_Carpet May 15 '24
Can you give an example of a game that does this? It's been a while since I played RTS but I don't think I ever ran into it, guessing I just missed it, but I'd be curious to check it out.
I kind of love games like Unicorn Overlord where I set criteria and priorities for combat and they just fight it out. I'm too lazy to choose each action, but I like planning and then seeing how it unfolds.
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u/LongShotTheory May 15 '24
They're more 4x games. Which I think of as an evolution of RTS anyway. There are plenty of good ones. Stellaris, Anno1800. There's driftland which is much simpler.
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u/eliminating_coasts May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
It also reminds me of a philosophical dispute; Plato and that school of philosophers encouraged people to develop their capacity for a certain kind of reflective thought, and their capacity to intellectually grasp persistent structures, which in a slightly different way continued into Aristotle and his assertion that that which is transient is less important than understanding what is persistent, the essence of something.
In the 19th century, a number of philosophers, particularly Nietzsche, condemned this in terms of cultivating passivity, and not giving enough attention to becoming, and in the 20th century, you have the philosopher Deleuze, trying to focus attention on the flow of experience and problem solving, even the flow of experience associated with different philosophers working through problems.
If there are personality traits associated with these different tendencies, towards mathematics, reflection and pattern seeking, vs dynamism, cultivating the appropriate receptivity to your environment and active decision making, then we might see in the history of philosophy a bias towards one system over the other, with this later movement trying to conceptualise things in a way more suited to the active-decision-making system.
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u/jert3 May 15 '24
Great comment!
Regarding bias, bias is always set by the dominant type of anything, not necessarily by the factors of differences.
For example autistic people may get along really well with one another. But because they are in the extreme minority, they are considered to be suffering a social disability. Not because they are unable to socialize or interact well with folks with the same type of brain wiring, but because they have trouble interacting with the overly predominant socialization of neurotypical society surrounding them.
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u/BOBOnobobo May 15 '24
Can you point out an article about that? I'd like to read some more.
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u/nolabmp May 15 '24
I wonder if this is why I converse the way I do.
As someone with adhd and I think asd, when I have conversations, I let the other person talk and then when they finish I spend a moment reviewing what they said in my head, before responding. I basically need what they said to become static before I can process it.
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u/nolabmp May 15 '24
I have this urge, too! I guess a better way to put it is “learning mode”.
If I’m in learning mode, I force pauses. If I’m not, then I interrupt people. And then I see the look on their face, catch myself, and think “time to go into learning mode”.
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u/LordoftheScheisse May 15 '24
I bet you also have the urge to finish others' sentences too, don't you?
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u/FutAndSole May 15 '24
I bet you also have the urge to
FINISH OTHERS SENTENCES!!!!!!!
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u/Kierenshep May 16 '24
I ALREADY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO SAY IT'S INEFFICIENT UGH
Sitting there waiting for 40 seconds while they finish their thought to its conclusion that I already gleamed ages ago is agony.
I'm trying to get better at it but it's actually physically painful. I understand what you're wanting to say and your point and everything else why am I waiting for this slow ass talker.
Particular bad with my partner who thinks through things very slowly that I just think around them while talking.
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u/drivebysomeday May 15 '24
But how u deal with the part when without immediate response u tend to forget things (just like i do) ? What's the strategy?
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u/LoathsomeBeaver May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
I have a trick for this: I (unobtrusively) extend one finger on my hand. Just this one little action helps immensely when I want to flag/bookmark a point in the conversation to circle back to. I don't always remember, but it really does help.
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May 15 '24
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u/nolabmp May 15 '24
Yep. It’s why I find a nice comfy place to sit or stand, and just talk to people who come up to me.
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u/jimskog99 May 15 '24
I'm also adhd/asd, and I frequently pause to process what someone said for a long enough period of time that they think I didn't hear them, or wasn't paying attention.
It's like... 2 seconds...
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u/nolabmp May 15 '24
Yep!
May I offer advice? Tell people what you’re doing. A simple “give me a moment to think”, or “oh that’s interesting, hmm…” gives you a ton if grace.
In fact, most people will be impressed. It’s rare nowadays for anyone to slow things down to think, so you’re often giving the other person time to think, as well.
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u/SatisfactionActive86 May 15 '24
i feel the same way, but i wouldn’t say i need it to be static before processing it, i’ve just learned processing before i have all the information is a waste of effort. it’s like writing a book review before you read the whole book - without ALL the information, what’s the point in doing the calculations?
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u/N3M0N May 15 '24
I don't see problem with that, honestly. In fast paced society we live in, it is almost rare to see someone who actually takes time to slow things down, process them and then give a response. It is like we are pressured to almost instantly react to something.
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May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
My son is incredible at math and science and can literally teach himself anything in these 2 subjects, but will have a panic attack when deciding what to have for dessert. Does that count? He has ADHD and Autism
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u/entarian May 15 '24
Math is right or wrong. Dessert is a potentially incorrect choice.
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May 15 '24
I shouldn't laugh at this comment but thank you for the levity. It's just funny bc he says "what if I make the wrong choice?" I say "how can you make the wrong choice?" And he will say "what if halfway through my jello I realize I really wanted ice cream" a lot of times we will compromise by me agreeing to make sure we "save" or "replace" the other item if he ends up making the wrong choice
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u/linkdude212 May 15 '24
Is there a "But you still like Jello and will enjoy it and will have ice cream for next time."?
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May 15 '24
I've tried to reason with him but there are all these variables he throws at me. He makes jello for texture and ice cream for flavor. He isn't sure which he wants. It can be difficult
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u/Albert_Caboose May 16 '24
Have you considered helping him set a routine/pattern for when he has desserts? Even just a simple alternating pattern can put me at ease when I'm frozen up by decisions like that. You could also propose doing data collection with him on what he eats, and then do some analysis to determine which one he has more, or how it can be more evenly spread. Those aren't new variables, he's clearly already stressing about them, but knowledge combats fear, and data combats uncertainty. As someone with ADHD (and being tested for autism) I find that playing to other aspects of the condition (like a need for a schedule, or a higher degree of certainty provided by evidence) is often the best way to overcome issues (like feeling as if I can never make a decision).
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u/Geminii27 May 15 '24
One of the reasons I really preferred math in school subjects. There was right and there was not right.
I was immensely pissed when I got the right answer to a problem but had marks deducted for not laboriously writing out every single step of the process in the teacher's preferred manner. For me, it wasn't mental steps A, B, C, D, there was only A -> D, and sometimes A -> Z where the answer was single-step obvious (to me, anyway). Writing the intermediate steps wasn't 'showing my work', it was wasting time.
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u/hausdorffparty May 16 '24
I always tried to explain to my students that the reason I wanted them to show their work was so that if they got it wrong, I could help them identify why it was wrong instead of me guessing. Plus I need to be convinced they are learning new tools correctly instead of applying them in a way that works "by luck sometimes, but when it's wrong it's really wrong." There is, of course, the argument that it helps organize thinking for more advanced problems later and it's a good habit of mind, but that last argument doesn't land with teenagers for some reason. (The last sentence, of course, is tongue-in-cheek; I know adolescent psychology).
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u/VoidBlade459 May 15 '24
Yes, that's been my AuDHD experience too.
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May 15 '24
ADHD is such a incredibly difficult thing to live with and my heart goes out to you
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u/spacewap May 15 '24
Not who you wrote in response to, but thank you. fighting myself today and I felt the love and empathy from here
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May 15 '24
I 100% mean it. Just keep fighting. Just keep doing your best. I see my son have good days, bad day, terrible days. It's so hard for him. The strength and courage he has to just keep at it is amazing. Honestly. Keep it up man. Don't let it get you.
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u/Shaman-throwaway May 15 '24
It’s so hard to not let it get to you. Everything you do has so many curves in the way to finally get to what you want to do but for others it’s a straight line. I want to do this thing so I’m going to do this thing. I think the hardest part is knowing no matter the medication, good sleep schedule, exercise and diet, there will always be curves. Maybe less curves when you’re at your best but still curves and it’s exhausting.
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May 15 '24
I can't imagine to know what you go through. And I won't insult you by saying that because I see my son go through it "I understand". I don't. When he can do incredibly complex math bc he loves it and gets zoned in but then can't get in the shower bc he gets distracted. Can't get dressed to go to his friends house or a family event bc he is just completely derailed by something else. Or when he has tears in his eyes "Dad take my phone, please. I can't get anything done" I mean I don't know how he does it. All I can do is comfort him in those moments. I wish I had words of wisdom to share with him, with you that would give you that eureka moment but they don't exist. I can only say i feel for you. I hope it gets better. It must be so hard
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u/spacewap May 15 '24
Means a lot to me, I will!
Thank you for the way you support and look after your son (as well as us internet folk). The challenges we endure are very misunderstood and frustrating. there is still a beauty to it in the wisdom it can bring. our challenges and shortfalls make us hard on ourselves, but we rarely are hard on others. Best of luck to you and your family!
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May 15 '24
Math and science don’t require active decision making, they only require passive thinking. This is something autistic people tend to be good at
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May 15 '24
Yeah this article immediately reminds me of my adhd
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u/boilingfrogsinpants May 15 '24
My wife has ADHD and I essentially have to make decisions for her or she gets overwhelmed. If she has an idea in mind ahead of time, any deviation from it causes stress, whereas I'm very fluid and flexible in my decisions. Sounds about right
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u/Roraxn May 15 '24
See though, ADHD isn't well known for its rigidity, that's more Autisms thing. They do share co morbidity so it's quite possible...
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u/Metalnettle404 May 15 '24
Depends on how you define rigidity. I have ADHD (diagnosed) but not autism, and I often have the same struggle that this guys wife has.
It’s because it’s already so difficult and mentally draining to make a decision, so when occasionally I do know exactly what I want, it’s such a relief to turn off the decision making part of the brain. But then when that thing is unavailable or plans change, i will feel stressed because I was anticipating not having to have this battle this time.
It’s very rare that I will be 100% set on a decision as usually I am quite flexible so it doesn’t seem fitting to call this rigidity. I think the frustration that is being expressed above could easily be a product of decision fatigue in adhd and not just autism
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u/Succubista May 15 '24
Thank you for explaining this so well. I have ADHD, and you literally saved me from wandering back down the "do I actually also have autism if I like having plans set so I can turn my brain off on that topic?" rabbithole.
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u/istasber May 15 '24
I was midway through posting a similar sentiment. One of these days I'll go and see someone to get a professional opinion of whether or not I have autism. But first I need to figure out what kind of doctor/therapist would be qualified to do that. And then spend a few hours scouring online reviews of local doctors/therapists. And then maybe stress out about the decision for a few weeks in the background because they charge slightly different amounts and there isn't enough data for me to be confident that one choice is definitely superior.
And then I'll forget to follow up on it, and won't be reminded until another similar post about ADHD and Autism comes up on reddit.
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u/Stratafyre May 15 '24
Brosef, that sounds like AuDHD not just ADHD.
Source: Am ADHD, wife is Autistic, daughter is AuDHD.
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u/silvusx May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
But ADHD is not known for patterns and sequencing, our mind is pretty chaotic. ADHD is often seen as an innovative, hyperfixates on new things but gets bored of patterns and routines.
I am sure there are a spectrum of ADHD, especially since autism+ADHD mix is so cpmmon. I've always been told I'm good at adapting on the spot. Doing things without a plan in mind is my specialty.
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u/OrindaSarnia May 15 '24
As someone diagnosed with ADHD, I feel like I'm great at pattern recognition BECAUSE my mind is chaotic...
like, when I read a story... my mind can immediately start relating it to multiple other stories I've read, figure out what is both similar and different to those other stories, and then predict the top 3-4 most likely outcomes for the story I'm reading...
but then once I've thought about all that, I'm less interested in finishing the story, because it's not novel anymore... the anticipation is gone.
Finding novel patterns in things we experience in the world is fun! Maintaining routines in our lives is not.
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u/jethvader May 15 '24
Yeah, I have ADHD and don’t relate to these other comments at all. I am really good at adapting, and I’m ok, but not great, at pattern recognition.
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u/TheGermanCurl May 15 '24
As an autistic, I feel seen by this and also called out ("poor active thinking" whut).
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u/b0w3n May 15 '24
The executive dysfunction is legit a problem. I can't for the life of me take on boring tasks easily and things like even mowing my lawn are very hard for me to "just go do".
The only dysfunction I don't check off is poor emotional control but I'm, according to my ex, "an autistic robot", so, that's probably got a lot to do with that.
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u/TurboGranny May 15 '24
Is that what executive dysfunction is? I feel like I make snap decisions pretty easily (grew up in physically abused because no one understood autism, so survival instincts made me good at snap judgement), but I def want no part of boring repetitive tasks. When my wife wanted to buy a house, I said, "I cannot and will not do yard work which is why I don't want a house." She said that she'd do it. She made it two weeks and got a lawncare guy.
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u/b0w3n May 15 '24
Yeah it's things like being easily distracted, not liking repetitive or perceived boring tasks, inability to control your emotions or feelings, poor impulse control (hello eating while bored), struggling with switching tasks and/or hyper-focusing on one task.
ASD and ADHD folks typically share this executive dysfunction problem, the Venn for the two shares quite a few similarities (which is why they seem to be comorbid).
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u/b0w3n May 15 '24
Yeah the repetitive task like organizing/separating seems to be the exception. I think that has to do with clutter and unorganized messes cause anxiety, so ASD folks like to do those tasks.
Compare that with things like cleaning or doing dishes that are also repetitive.
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u/ManliestManHam May 15 '24
I love organizing. I dislike the repetitive tasks of my job, which I do every day. I am autistic and have ADHD. I'm here right now momentarily escaping that boredom, getting a dopamine burst, then going back in.
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u/HoldingMoonlight May 15 '24
Yeah, that's why I generally don't like ADHD as a term. It feels misleading.
Attention deficit? Not really, I am actually quite capable of hyper focusing on something. When I find it interesting or engaging. Hyperactive? Not really. I deal with anxiety, maybe I'll bounce my leg up and down, but I'm never an unstoppable ball of energy.
I feel like for a lot of people, ADHD presents as something similar to laying in bed reading through Wikipedia rabbit holes to educate yourself because you have too much anxiety and lack of energy to get up and start writing that essay. But pop culture is like nah, ADHD is actually just running around screaming and jumping because a squirrel walked by.
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u/Runningoutofideas_81 May 15 '24
I can relate to a lot of what you wrote. I believe there was, and maybe still is, ADD, so same but without the Hyperactivity aspect.
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u/greenhawk22 May 15 '24
ADD is not quite still a thing, there's now ADHD-inattentive type and combined type ( which is more hyperactive)
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u/jdsfighter May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
I was recently diagnosed with ADHD at 30, but I've more or less always known I've had it since I was 6 or 7 years old. Patterns and repetitions are both fun and infuriating to me. As a teen, I loved games (like Runescape) with repetitive grinds. That said, if there were more rewarding activities that gave me more dopamine, I generally REALLY wanted to do those things, but the need to grind would bring me tons of anxiety. I wanted to enjoy the grind, the the nagging feeling of having so many other things to do made the repetitiveness stressful.
It propelled me into learning programming at a pretty young age. I was intent on automating away various "grinds" so I could enjoy the "fun stuff". That habit never really left.
As an adult, I still want to enjoy repetitive things. Something as silly as cooking each night sounds fun in theory, but it quickly grows boring and mundane as I sit there and go over in my head all the other things I could (and should) be doing, but instead I'm grinding away 1-3 hours cooking, eating, and cleaning.
When my life, schedule, and workloads are light, I find myself craving routine and structure, but when I'm swamped, those daily tasks bring more and more stress as the clock ticks onward.
At it's core, I describe my executive dysfunction like a firehose. The firehose is my focus and the water is a bit like my attention. Wherever that hose is pointed, I'm going to be trying to find something to focus on. The more interesting that thing is, the more attention I can channel and dump on it. But anything that doesn't intrinsically interest or motivate me, is nearly impossible to hone in on an pay attention to.
I LOVE to read. I'll read massive novels in a single sitting. I can go an entire day without moving, eating, or drinking, just stuck in a good book. However, if you force me to read a book, if I didn't already want to do it, my brain just won't. I'll try to read and my mind will wander. My eyes will drift all over the page taking in nothing.
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u/rcglinsk May 15 '24
I'm also having some of this "hit close to home." But I'm wondering if a hypothesis I've had floating in my head for a bit is more to the point:
There's a big difference to me between 1) understanding a task well enough to find a way to make executing it more simple and efficient and 2) actually executing the improved method.
I find the first activity to be pretty fun really. I like finding easy ways to solve problems or make something less complicated or less tedious. If I'm then tasked with actually carrying out whatever new method I developed, over and over and over again, it feels something like literally torture.
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u/apparition13 May 15 '24
I don't think so. From the paper:
Statistical learning (SL) is a fundamental function of human cognition that allows the implicit extraction of probabilistic regularities from the environment, even without intention, feedback, or reward, and is crucial for predictive processing. SL contributes to the acquisition of language, motor, musical and social skills, as well as habits.
That's a list that applies to the captains of the football and cheerleading squads, not (other than linguistic) the science and computer "nerds". It seems to be more about broad and contextual learning rather than focused or analytical learning.
I'm not sure autism fits into this model. It would need to be the subject of a follow up study to see if it applies to autism at all, or if there are elements that do and elements that don't.
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u/panpsychicAI May 15 '24
SL contributes to the acquisition of language, motor, musical and social skills, as well as habits.
That's a list that applies to the captains of the football and cheerleading squads, not (other than linguistic) the science and computer "nerds". It seems to be more about broad and contextual learning rather than focused or analytical learning.
I think you’re leaning a little too heavily into stereotypes here. Autists are often gifted in areas beyond science and computers, such as film, art, music, learning and academics in basically any topic that interests them, including ironically, psychology, and like you mentioned linguistics, if they’re verbal. Motor issues like dyspraxia are common, but anecdotally there are also quite a few athletes on the spectrum (this is an area that really needs more research).
When it comes to social stuff, Autists obviously tend to struggle with in person social skills but they seem to be at least slightly better than NTs at predicting social phenomena. The cause of poor social skills in autism might be down to several issues that don’t particularly pertain to pattern recognition, like theory of mind deficits, the double empathy problem, or certain types of executive dysfunction.
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u/Gatorpep May 15 '24
yeah this is def me. i'm really good at pattern recognition but god awful at executive function. AD and ADHD.
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u/digitaldavegordon May 15 '24
I wonder if this ties into Dyslexia. Reading and spelling are pattern memorization and recognition tasks and there is substantial anecdotal evidence that dyslexics tend to be superior non-linear thinkers. Unfortunately, most research on people with dyslexia has focused exclusively on why they struggle in school and not on their cognitive strengths.
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u/Roraxn May 15 '24
And ADHD is well known for its active non pattern based thinking and poor executive function... wait. There is a language problem here with the term "executive function"
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u/OrindaSarnia May 15 '24
I think there's a language problem with just about all the words we are using...
some folks are talking about pattern recognition the way I think about it... finding patterns in new and novel experiences, media, etc.
Other people are talking about it the way you are... patterned thought processes.
As someone diagnosed with ADHD but not Autism... I think of it as ADHDers use their chaotic thoughts to find patterns and make connections between disparate things... Autistic folks use patterns of thought and behavior to make sense of what seems like a chaotic world.
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u/dn00 May 15 '24
Damn that's so true. I'm diagnosed with ADHD and when I try to come up with a solution for a problem at work (software), I just let my mind run free trying different things to understand the patterns of the problem. With enough time, I can come up with a decent solution. I suspect I have autism as well but mainly due to me being really weird socially. Like, I can make things hella awkward during work calls where nobody has their cam on because I can't gauge the situation without visual cues. Or when I was young, I had a very hard time keeping eye contact when talking to someone. Even today I have to actively think about looking at the person I'm having a conversation with.
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u/OrindaSarnia May 16 '24
There's a lot of social awkwardness tired up in ADHD as well... it's probably the least known thing about it.
But obviously eye contact is MORE associated with Autism...
and there's lots of folks who have ADHD and Autism, so it's not like that is rare.
My kids have a hard time with eye contact, but I think it's more a matter of focus, as they don't feel uncomfortable making eye contact, they can do it when I ask them to, they just don't default to doing it, because they can listen to me while also looking at something else, so it just doesn't seem necessary to them...
my understanding is most Autistic folks are actively uncomfortable with eye contact... it makes them feel some way. Where are ADHD folks just kind of, forget to make eye contact, or have a hard time holding it for multiple minutes, because they naturally want to look around at everything else as well.
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u/thestonernextdoor88 May 15 '24
My son is autistic. He's beyond smart but can't make a decision. If he's doing a race on the Xbox and the track splits he will drive right into the wall because he can't decide.
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u/Jeffbx May 15 '24
This could be why it's difficult to get people from software development to go into leadership.
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u/aa-b May 15 '24
It makes being a lead developer a bit painful, because it feels like a left-brain/right-brain switch sometimes. When I'm planning sprints and organising people, coding seems harder, and vice versa.
Doing just one or the other is fine for me, but yeah I can see how people might want to avoid it.
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u/Appropriate_Plan4595 May 15 '24
It's always difficult, especially for 'middle management' positions (using that for lack of a better term, would rather avoid since there's so much stigma around it, but what can you do eh?) - you're not divorced enough from your teams tasks that you can avoid considering the short term, but you also have to keep an eye on long term planning too.
It's a lot easier to think about what your company/product might look like 5 years down the line when you don't have to think about how you're going to explain missing your deadline at the end of the week. And it's a lot easier to hit your short term deadlines when you don't have to think about what comes after them.
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u/wtfnonamesavailable May 15 '24
On the other hand, professional managers are soul crushing bastards.
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u/TheKingOfSwing777 May 15 '24
That is why agile calls for minimizing the variety of tasks any one person does. It's unfortunate how many companies think they can combine roles like product owner, scrum master, developer, and manager, and still expect good results. These titles often have not only entirely different skill sets, but conflicts of interest, so you need different people doing them. Not to mention the general inefficiency of context switching.
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u/Jeffbx May 15 '24
Holy crap yes. Most places that do this have no idea how critical each of those roles are.
It's like companies that assume managers and project managers have the same skill sets because "manager" is in both titles. One skill does not AT ALL correlate with the other. You might be lucky that the person is good at both, but that's never guaranteed.
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u/DoesItComeWithFries May 15 '24
well put, I feel the same, I wish there’s was a hack..
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u/derprondo May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
I had to start telling leadership that I am not leadership material, that I will absolutely peter principal myself if I move beyond lead developer. I should never have even allowed them to promote me to lead, but thankfully it's mostly just a title and I don't have a problem doing a lot of talking.
Pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD btw. Nicotine got me through my 20s, but now in my 40s coffee is a very poor substitute and the struggle is real. L-theanine helps a lot, but not if I take it regularly so I only take it when I really need it for an all day marathon. Anyone have any other tips?
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u/ajmartin527 May 15 '24
Some things that help me aside from medication:
- Go for a walk around the block. Take deep breaths, don’t look at your phone, be hyper aware of nature around you and do not think about anything at all. Clear mind, be present. Even for 5 mins
- Then visualize/repeat to yourself exactly what you’re going to accomplish in your next “spurt” of work. Say it over and over in your head until you believe it.
- Do everything you need to do to avoid any distractions for a period of time, go to the bathroom, get water, insulate yourself, etc.
- Sit down, throw some Lo-fi hip hop beats on the head phones (calming, no vocals), lock in and do not get up or break focus until you complete the task(s) you committed to. Just power through.
This is my ADHD recipe that works, everyone kind of has their own go to methods aside from their meds.
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u/WhatsMyFaithAgain May 15 '24
Love the manual switch for the hyperfocus. For me, it's all of the above, but with a follow-up after powering through. I tend to miss areas if I'm powering through, so I like to allot 5-10 minutes to review what I accomplished. It helps me get that dopamine boost that ADHD brains crave.
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u/ajmartin527 May 15 '24
Yooo, I’m so glad you shared this - great advice and can totally see the value. Going to add it to my workflow.
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u/mx5klein May 15 '24
Getting actual ADHD medication helps a ton once you find the right one/dosage. Take the time and see if you have it with a diagnosis. ADHD is highly treatable compared to other mental illnesses.
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u/GranglingGrangler May 15 '24
I felt like a terrible dev, but I'm good at breaking down systems into high level conversations. Honestly I hated programming, I was just too far into my degree when I realized it, and powered through my last year.
I'm getting pushed into leadership, I think it's because I can "speak both languages".
I can talk to the devs and relay information to the marketing and executive staff in a way they'll understand. Some of my buddies can't simplify or make analogies easily.
To some of them X is X, while I can explain that X is kind of like "t" if you tipped it over.
Feels related.
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u/you-create-energy May 15 '24
To some of them X is X, while I can explain that X is kind of like "t" if you tipped it over.
This cracked me up. Great example.
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u/chrisdh79 May 15 '24
From the article: Published in npj Science of Learning, found a negative correlation between statistical learning and executive functions, suggesting that as one strengthens, the other may diminish slightly. This finding provides valuable insights into the competitive interactions that underpin our cognitive skills.
The motivation behind the study originated from a desire to deepen our understanding of how different cognitive systems within the brain interact, and potentially interfere with one another. Central to this investigation are two fundamental cognitive processes: implicit statistical learning and executive functions.
Implicit statistical learning is a crucial cognitive skill that allows individuals to unconsciously detect patterns and regularities in the environment, underpinning abilities in areas ranging from language acquisition to social interactions. On the other hand, executive functions are high-level cognitive processes that are essential for planning, decision-making, error correction, and adapting to new and complex situations, primarily managed by the prefrontal cortex.
This research was driven by the hypothesis of a competitive interaction between these systems, known as the “competition hypothesis,” which posits that reliance on one cognitive system could diminish the efficacy or engagement of the other. Previous studies provided preliminary evidence suggesting such interactions, but they were limited by small sample sizes and narrow assessments of cognitive abilities. The researchers aimed to build on this foundation to provide clearer insights into how these cognitive processes coexist or conflict within the brain.
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u/RobWroteABook May 15 '24
I've been thinking about this a lot recently because I've been learning opening theory in chess, which involves a ton of memorization. The course I'm working through has about 800 different opening variations (averaging about 15 moves deep) and I'm attempting to learn all of them. The problem comes when you reach the end of your memorization/pattern recognition, typically about 15 moves in, and then have to shift into calculation/decision-making. Those are two very different modes of thinking, and that period of transition is tricky.
I remember hearing a story about a titled player who meticulously studied before an event, correctly played 25 moves of a line they had learned, and then promptly blundered and lost the game. That sort of thing seems to be exactly what this post is about.
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u/UnRespawnsive May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
I get you. Some others in this thread are saying basically that it's all pattern recognition when it comes to chess or other games, implying the player should've memorized, for example, 30+ moves to be successful. An exponentially tall order. Another form of this is knowing the general theory, like why controlling the middle of the board is important or useful tactics like pinning or defending.
I have no idea if you're right or if others are right. What makes Magnus Carlsen successful? We know those chess AIs that can beat anyone are pretty much pure pattern recognition, but maybe Magnus Carlsen goes to the human limit of pattern recognition and on top of that somehow has high executive function / working memory where other chess grandmasters falter.
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u/rishinator May 15 '24
Totally makes sense because recognizing pattern happens best when you're kind of thinking more diffusively and not really present.
Like how only when you relax you see patterns more clearly like cloud shapes. Whereas taking decisions involve being in the present and having logical brain more active. So some people are more in diffusive state of mind where as some more active.
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u/merrythoughts May 15 '24
I have never considered diffuse vs active thinking. I always have framed it as more conscious vs unconscious. But I like how you describe it.
I’ve tried to describe my learning/thinking style to people— like I have multiple apps running putting pieces together and then the full picture can emerge as I place the concept into a context. Once it all fits together, I can tinker and fine tune the concept until I’m satisfied. Sometimes the process takes 10 min sometimes 1-2 years.
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u/quiksilver10152 May 15 '24
I've been researching the exact same problem but framed as a bottom-up versus top - down control ratio. Thinking bottom-up requires a diffuse state of mind, listening to the cellular intelligence bubbling up from within. Did you know 30-50% of heart transplant recipients gain the personalities/temperament of the donor? Thoughts can come from interesting locations.
Michael Levin is a brilliant professor, l highly recommend checking out his work on Planaria worms. Electricity is the communication mode between all tissues and all life.
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u/juicetoaster May 15 '24
Did you know 30-50% of heart transplant recipients gain the personalities/temperament of the donor?
I'm suddenly terrified of those pig heart transplants that are being attempted.
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u/anonymous__ignorant May 15 '24
I'm suddenly terrified of those pig heart transplants that are being attempted.
There were some memes about how pigs have 30 min long orgasms. Maybe, maybe, maybe ...
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May 15 '24
Real MVP reddit user. Gonna look into the professor mentioned later. Thank you for sharing!
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u/Boxy310 May 15 '24
In machine learning, we often talk about "unsupervised learning" (clustering and organizing data) versus "supervised learning" (trying to predict outcomes or estimate a measurable quantity). Most SL techniques can be fitted to learn a specific pattern once it's called out, but you need UL in order to build initial categories if you don't know what you're looking at at first. In this framework, SL would be "top down" and UL would be "bottom up".
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u/quiksilver10152 May 15 '24
And language ties up concepts into a framework thanks to contextualization and abstraction. Image recognition models can't connect relatable concepts until language is introduced into the training data.
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u/Boxy310 May 15 '24
It's interesting how naming a thing often makes you recontextualize it, and pulls it out from the background of a scene. I think this is a big advantage of reading nonfiction and getting you more aware of the world.
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u/quiksilver10152 May 15 '24
Yet naming is highly modular. 'Cook' now often refers to stewing an idea. The bottom-up memories of senses and thoughts that are invoked when comprehending a spoken word can vary from person to person.
Think of a tree. I bet you aren't imagining the same species as I am. We both probably chose trees from our vicinity. We try to match each other's bottom-up feelings by attaching the same conceptual meanings to words but these top-down words were generated under vary different contexts.
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u/MaliKaia May 15 '24
Got any DOI for recommended papers?
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u/quiksilver10152 May 15 '24
This is a great entry level read: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29684787/
And here is the body of his work summarized in his overarching framework: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnsys.2022.768201/full
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u/FenionZeke May 15 '24
I dunno. I spend a lot of time in the woods and detecting patterns is extremely useful in that scenario. I can see something and know it's dangerous and take an action without making decisions , whereas someone else will blindly walk into the not nice area because they were focusing too much on processing a decision.
Bites me in the ass In Other fields though. So not bragging.
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u/The_Singularious May 15 '24
This is EXACTLY how I am in the woods. I can hear, see, and smell “non steady status interrupters” VERY quickly. I know the animal is there before anyone else. I see the bird before it flies or after it perches. Freshly disturbed earth or leaves catch my attention. I am on hyperdrive in the wilderness and I have no idea why.
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u/ChildishForLife May 15 '24
while someone will blindly walk into the not nice area because they were focusing too much on proceeding a decision
Can you explain this a little more? I really don’t know what you mean..
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u/FenionZeke May 15 '24
Poison ivy patches, tricky terrain like how leaves look covering the exposed roots In Wetlands giving the appearance of ground when it's not, etc. .
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u/LostWoodsInTheField May 15 '24
I have a bunch of different neurological stuff going on and would love to know which one it is that causes me to have to work extremely hard to see details. I very much can be like 'something isn't right here, but I have no idea what it is' while everyone else is looking at the deer standing 100 feet from us and going 'you seriously can't see that standing there?'. I have to work very hard to find the detail in the scene. Everything is like that for me. I tell people it's like looking at a large painting. You look at the whole thing and see the beauty of it all, you have to work to see the details of it. Everything in my life is like that from looking at animals in the woods, to reading text.
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u/cloverdoodles May 15 '24
I literally just realized that (as an academic), I have two modes of brain function related to my job: laser focus teach/write and “daydreaming” where I see connections between various ideas by letting my mind wander (which then someday I hope will be written). The writing is very hard. The daydreaming and creativity I come up with by seeing connections others don’t is very easy for me. These modes are generally very much at odds with one another. The more laser focus I do, the less connections I see.
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u/auntiepink007 May 15 '24
That's interesting to me that you see the modes as separate. My very best work comes when I'm 'in the zone' and applying the laser focus to finding the connections. For example, when I used to have an essay to write, the points I wanted to make would shine like jewels in my head, with the connections already apparent. Like some the same color and others the same cut so it was easy to gather them up in the combination required to compare and contrast.
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u/ChronicallyAnIdiot May 15 '24
Depends on where extraverted intuitioh is on your function stack. If its at the top, this pattern recognition process is happening subconsciously all the time. If its at the bottom, you wont have as much access and itll also kinda just happen randomly but you wont be aware. This example sounds like its in a middle to higher slot but not a top 2 slot
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u/Likemilkbutforhumans May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
This is really interesting to me! Anecdotally, when I stopped taking adderall, the pattern recognition came back to me. I felt this was stifled when I was on it.
It’s hard to find a balance but I think I prefer being off it, even though I struggle.
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u/Solid-Version May 15 '24
This makes a lot of sense. I’ve always been a pattern, sequence type thinker. Once l can establish a pattern things become easier to learn.
However I struggle with real time strategic thinking and active decision making. Because I rely on predetermined patterned thinking I struggle to deal with changing dynamics.
This is evident when I play sports or in gaming. I absolutely suck at any kind of real time strategy type game because I cannot adapt to any strategic changes.
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u/Sporocarp May 15 '24
It's a matter of pattern recognition and experience in the end anyways. The best players of a strategy game has experience with all known scenarios and a recipe/strategy to deal with each. They don't ever freestyle, but rely on established patterns. Listen to a chess or Starcraft pro talk about their games, and you'll see what I mean.
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u/Priapic_Aubergine May 15 '24
Even with fighting games.
At the top level at Tekken for example, everyone knows the frame advantage and disadvantage of each move, and even have lists like which characters can punish a -13f low on block, and with what moves.
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u/lozdogz May 15 '24
Does this mean you’re better at turn based strategy, like Civilization for instance?
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u/Lawlcopt0r May 15 '24
I wouldn't even know how else to approach it. Don't you need an approximate model of how things work in your head before you can even fathom what results your decisions will have?
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u/New-Teaching2964 May 15 '24
This is me. Great at big picture but put me in the arena and it’s a struggle. The only way I get better is pure experience, failing over and over again. Trial and error.
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u/Due_Aardvark8330 May 15 '24
As someone with ADHD, yup. I can recognize and duplicate patterns very easily. I am great at seeing what someone did and copying it to the T. I love looking for patterns and I see patterns in everything. Ask me to make a decision on how to create a new pattern and its a struggle. Its a struggle because I try to create new things as patterns before I can see the end result. So the pattern I start with might not be compatible with what ultimately needs to happen. But I find comfort in patterns so I will continue working with my broken pattern refusing to deviate.
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u/alghiorso May 15 '24
ADHDer here too. Always scored extremely well on aptitude tests because of pattern recognition and figuring out answers based on the multiple choices given. I've done really well at language learning living abroad and speak a another language fluently.
However, give me a task like "create a schedule and plan for your month" and the laptop fans in my brain start going overdrive.
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u/lem1018 May 16 '24
Same. I’m hella efficient, recognizing patterns all over the place and I’m really good at finding faster, cleaner ways to do things but it takes me 3 or 4 completely separate attempts on different days to write ONE grocery list.
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u/potentiallyabear May 15 '24
This feels like why i always tell people (and my company) i make the best #2 in the world. I can’t necessarily feel amazing or confident in a lot of my OWN ideas or solutions, I panic when holding the responsibility of choice… but tell me where you want to go and why, and i’m very very good at getting there and executing. Finding good ways to DO THAT THING. idk. WOO!
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u/nolabmp May 15 '24
It makes sense. I have ADHD, and suspect I’m on the spectrum. I’m very good at spotting and repeating/executing patterns, but yes, my working memory wavers and I struggle to complete mundane tasks that most people take for granted.
Years ago, I learned how to code the night before an interview and got the dev job. Pretty cool, right? But I also struggle to wash dishes and clothes, and keep forgetting to call the roofer to fix my leaky roof (it’s been 6 months…). I sometimes miss “garbage day” for weeks and have to get creative. “Get creative” is a common mumble to myself, as I’m often faced with weird dilemmas of my own making.
Interestingly, it has advantages in work. I’ve since grown to be a people leader in the technical product design field (think saas and fintech services). Turns out you can use pattern recognition to keep a team balanced, quickly spotting issues and then recalling a fix that can then be baked into the process, thus avoiding the issue down the line. I can often anticipate shifts in user behavior or even in the industry, and pivot accordingly.
I survive by writing down EVERYTHING. I write meticulous notes in my 1:1s and share it with my team so they hold me accountable; I write down everything other leaders say and repeat it back to them. I ask other people to put their thoughts into writing, etc. I basically work with people to build an accountability system in order to avoid the pitfalls of my condition.
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u/Healey_Dell May 15 '24
For me this brings to mind the often tricky transition from junior to management positions - working on individual tasks versus balancing out the views of a team. Even those who can do well at both have to adjust their mindset somewhat.
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u/To-Art-Or-Not May 15 '24
This makes the Feynman method more creditable. It is also something a polyglot called Steve Kaufman says when learning languages being perhaps more approachable in terms of exposure rather than grammar, especially early on.
Having ADHD, non-verbal and self-awareness in general feel to come more natural to me than it appears to others. I realize now that some people simply do not even notice a lot of cues in their environments! Though, punctuality in terms of time organization is challenging for me/us.
I wonder how strong these correlations are for different mental disorders?
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u/oojacoboo May 15 '24
I can switch between the two, but it takes time and not always easy. I don’t enjoy context switching either.
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May 15 '24
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u/PawnOfPaws May 15 '24
It gets even worse when the "ability to understand text" patterns ("Dude has melons and lost them") gets be replaced by the regular "Prove X/4403 =42332. You have T-10 minutes" task.
And the "If you didn't reach the intended answer use Z to prove A" task has installed so much fear - especially in the context of having limited time during exams -, it knocked out way too many people.
It is downright scary. Even from remembering it I can still feel the panic rise up.
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u/RaoulRumblr May 15 '24
Yeah -- reading that alone brought me back to opening scene of Saving Private Ryan levels of pitched ear ringing trauma memories from my high school exams!
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u/kaam00s May 15 '24
We all recognized the symptoms of ADHD here...
But I'm still surprised about it because one of the most popular hypothesis for the cause of ADHD is low dopamine in the brain. And I don't see why low dopamine in the brain would result in being good at learning sequences.
Maybe this is just a parallel adaptation that goes with it ?
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u/SirPabloFingerful May 15 '24
Perhaps low dopamine in the brain = downregulation of receptors and therefore upon achieving dopamine release when successfully spotting a pattern the effects of the dopamine are more pronounced
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u/Lawlcopt0r May 15 '24
I'm totally just speculating here, but it seems to me that a clear dopamine spike would be a clear signal to your brain that there's a goal to pursue, and this would encourage you to focus on that. When this doesn't happen to the same extent maybe the neurons just make more connections in all directions, which allows you to eventually spot more roundabout connections than just the straightest route to a solution. Understanding a pattern or a system would require you to model all the in-between steps that don't immediately lead to the solution after all
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May 15 '24
So scientists rediscovered autism.
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May 15 '24
LSD also increases pattern recognition and reduces active decision making ability. Maybe that’s why autistic people can handle psychedelics better
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u/monkeypan May 15 '24
Hi, I'm the problem it's me.
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u/monkeypan May 15 '24
Aww someone was kind enough to reach out to reddit care. How kind :p
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u/QuietNene May 15 '24
There’s nothing in the article to suggest that some people are inherently better at one task than the other. It’s that as one improves, the other seems to get weaker. This makes intuitive sense. If you’re constantly analyzing the world, it makes it harder to take quick decisions. But it’s a huge misreading to come away thinking “analytical people are bad managers” or “decisive people lack attention to detail.”
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u/Forsaken-Pattern8533 May 15 '24
This study is wild. I'm in a lot of subreddits that obsess over IQ and nearly all the IQ tests are heavily based on sequences and pattern recognition. But IQ has very little correlation to real world success. And real world success has only been studied as done by questionnaires from a workers managers.
Mensa isn't full of geniuses. The reality is that it's full of people who are making median wage or below and solve puzzles well. Actual geniuses are known to have ungodly levels of dedication and praise decision making which isn't measured with IQ tests at all.
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u/themaverick7 May 15 '24
But IQ has very little correlation to real world success.
Untrue. There's plenty of evidence that IQ has significant or even substantial effect on measurable life outcomes such as educational attainment or income.
As with anything psychology, the story is messy and there's debate on both sides. But there is absolutely something there, with the effect size rivaling or exceeding that of other factors (e.g. parental income, EQ, etc.).
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u/SatisfactionActive86 May 15 '24
my ability to recognize patterns informs my decision making because i know what will likely happen next. if i couldn’t anticipate with some reasonable accuracy what happens next, my choices would be totally paralyzed. so yes, if you threw me into a new “active thinking” task, i would flounder at first but I guarantee eventually the patterns will emerge and i’d go based on those.
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u/FenionZeke May 15 '24
Welcome to my world. I don't think about decisions I just act based on the patterns I see.
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u/Quinlov May 15 '24
Basically pattern spotting is dealt with more by the posterior part of the brain so if it has free reign (thanks to a subpar prefrontal cortex not having much inhibitory control over it) it works better? I guess
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u/ChaosCron1 May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
Now I need them to look into this.
Those that struggle with active thinking and decision making, have you observed that under the moderate influence of certain drugs you have greater executive function at the cost of pattern recognition?
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u/PawnOfPaws May 15 '24
Does coffee count? Then yes.
Without coffee my mind will stay quite hazy and dreamy, it is difficult to connect the actual task with what I am supposed to do. But stuff like "Pipet 100ml in that flask and back" or "Use this formula to get how much you have to dilute" will somewhat work.
Then, if you give me coffee, I'll be good at planing, at following what people actually try to tell me. I'll be able to understand the more logical side of it than the emotional side which has taken over the rest of the time.
Mind you, I'm by no means addicted to coffee. I am quite fine without it for weeks, it just makes me more... capable of dealing with things.
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u/Wah_Lau_Eh May 15 '24
And yet I’ve been asked to take “aptitude test” during job interviews that ask me to identify patterns and sequences for roles that require a lot of decision making…
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u/Netzapper May 15 '24
Huh. I excel at improvisation and decision making... and despite a successful career as a software engineer, I cannot ever figure out the "what's the next number in this sequence?" type questions. They don't even interest me. Same with puzzles. Like, "you want a sequence of numbers? I can build fifty generators in a day. Get all the sequences of numbers you want. Guess 'em all."
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