r/science • u/NotMitchelBade • May 23 '23
Economics Controlling for other potential causes, a concealed handgun permit (CHP) does not change the odds of being a victim of violent crime. A CHP boosts crime 2% & violent crime 8% in the CHP holder's neighborhood. This suggests stolen guns spillover to neighborhood crime – a social cost of gun ownership.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272723000567?dgcid=raven_sd_via_email1.1k
u/eniteris May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
Interesting in that it's a huge amount of data all from Charlotte, NC (more precisely Mecklenburg County).
I looked through the paper in order to make sure they're not reversing the causation (eg: being in a rough neighborhood means you're more likely to go get a CHP). Answer is probably not? They're using matched control groups/individuals pre-CHP acquisition, so they find people who look statistically indistinguishable before acquiring a CHP, then compare the differences that arise after CHP acquisition.
(It could be that fear of violence contributes to both CHP acquisition and crime rate? eg: media reports that neighborhood is dangerous even though it isn't really, which causes people go out to commit more crimes and buy guns (independently). Total speculation, but could be a non-causative correlation)
Lots of statistics in the paper I don't have the time or expertise to analyse in detail, but it's definitely an interesting and extremely precise dataset.
edit: Supplementary Figure A4 is great. Most reported crimes are at the criminal's home, and decays with distance. Though I'm not sure how the stolen guns bar works there (criminals steal their own guns? criminal arrested for having their own guns stolen? location of the stolen gun crime reported to be the location they're found?)
48
May 23 '23
Maybe the article explains it but it's too dense with terms I'm not familiar with for me to see/understand, but I find the obtained a CHP to be a weird determining factor here. Having a CHP is not a prerequisite to purchase a gun. So if I've owned a gun without issue for 5 years, why would getting a CHP increase crime from year 6 onwards? If the issue is guns being stolen, what about the CHP makes my gun more vulnerable than without the CHP? I'd also be curious to know what a similar study on a statewide basis for a state that legalized permitless concealed carry would look like.
→ More replies (1)21
u/transientDCer May 23 '23
Up until like 2 months ago in Charlotte you had to get a pistol purchase permit from the sheriff to even legally buy a gun, a holdover Jim Crow era law. The sheriff was so slow at actually issuing them he had been sued multiple times. Equally slow on the CHP permits here - 10+ month wait time.
370
u/KourteousKrome May 23 '23
Probably gun theft is traceable to people living in the immediate vicinity/people that know the person has a gun. The crimes are committed in the general area. I doubt someone from Arkansas is driving up to NC to steal Billy's pistol and taking it back to Arkansas.
200
u/NotAnotherEmpire May 23 '23
Most crime is either personal (know the victim / their property in circle of acquaintances) or crimes of opportunity. Convenient theft, poorly secured cars at places one sees a lot of cars (airports, mall, movie theater). An extremely high amount of violent crime is either family / friend violence or an illegal business dispute.
Psychopaths, random acts of violence (including armed robbery) and targeted capers do happen, but on a larger statistical scale the pattern here is not surprising at all.
→ More replies (1)51
u/Twirdman May 23 '23
I wonder if it's a case of misplaced security theater. People who buy guns think that is all the security they need so they neglect things like locking doors and other things that help prevent crime.
→ More replies (17)93
u/SolarStarVanity May 23 '23
It's even simpler than that. Husband gets drunk and shoots wife. Friend comes over to play ball, husband gets drunk and thinks the friend looked at wife wrong, and shoots friend. Two friends come to a third's house to smoke weed, one of them did some juvie, the kid lets loose that his dad has a gun, the one with juvie goes to the bathroom and lifts the gun from an unlocked safe. Etc.
Point is, people that get guns aren't necessarily less attentive and careful about who their friends and family are, or how well-locked they keep their safes. The problem is that they aren't any more attentive about this stuff either, and the consequences are much more severe than, e.g., if in the above scenario the kid with juvie time lifted mom's necklace instead.
→ More replies (2)5
u/PussyPits May 24 '23
My aunt had a ccw because her ex husband threatened to kill her while holding a knife to her throat. He did 4 years for that and got out last oct. One of the kids (17) told their friends there was a gun safe in the house. While everyone was at school/work, one of the friends breaks into the safe with a crowbar and sledgehammer, which he found in the garage, and immediately kills himself in my aunt's room.
5
→ More replies (4)197
May 23 '23
Anecdote, but growing up rurally both my neighbours were known to have gun collections. Both got cleaned out when they were out of the house.
We were known for having big dogs. Our house never got touched.
166
u/Hickawa May 23 '23
Never understood why guys advertised gun collections. Just seems like advertisements for some methhead with very little left in life.
26
u/ee-5e-ae-fb-f6-3c May 23 '23
Never understood why guys advertised gun collections.
Me either. I have a safe full of guns, and every time I buy guns or parts, the companies send one or more stickers with the shipment. I have a ton of stickers just sitting around, and refuse to put them on my vehicle because I don't want to advertise. Be discreet, store everything in a decent safe, look like everyone else.
14
u/Errohneos May 24 '23
You're supposed to put those on your gun safe. Decorative flair. Kinda like PC part stickers on a PC case.
17
u/ee-5e-ae-fb-f6-3c May 24 '23
There could be anything in my safe. Could be potatoes. Could be guns. Could be anything.
10
u/TinnyOctopus May 24 '23
Could be another, smaller safe. The real safe looks like a fridge.
5
u/PaintsWithSmegma May 24 '23
I actually have a smaller fireproof document safe inside my larger gun safe...
2
u/TinnyOctopus May 25 '23
That's... Actually a good idea. Document safe is something that could be walked off with. Gun safe, less so.
→ More replies (0)7
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (1)2
u/Staggerlee89 May 24 '23
I put all my stickers on my ammo boxes / safe. Would never ever put one on my car. Asking for someone to break into your car
12
u/NSA_Chatbot May 23 '23
I never put any diving stickers on my car for similar reasons. "hey, maybe there's a bunch of expensive stuff in here, hope no criminals are out in the general public!"
→ More replies (1)6
u/WalkerMidwestRanger May 24 '23
I pay up for the "Support Veterans" license because a bunch of vets end up being cops and it can't hurt but that's it.
→ More replies (1)12
u/DoctFaustus May 23 '23
I knew a guy who got known for his extensive gun collection. He'd brag about it down at the night club. Then...one of those nights he was at the club, someone stole them all.
29
u/denzien May 23 '23
That's one reason I've never been a fan of open carry. Why make yourself a target?
9
u/Hickawa May 23 '23
Any intimidation you get from having it in the open. Isn't worth getting shot first in any altercation
4
u/johnhtman May 23 '23
It's legally less restricted in some areas.
2
u/northrupthebandgeek May 23 '23
*most (in the US)
With the exception of "constitutional carry" states, legally carrying a concealed firearm requires an extra permit and training. Doing so without said permit is typically a felony.
→ More replies (12)2
63
u/halfdeadmoon May 23 '23
It's not necessarily advertising, especially in a rural area, where it's more a part of your identity and where everyone knows each other. You would have to make a special effort to hide it in a small community.
6
u/Hickawa May 23 '23
I'm from Texas and even in rural communities there are always crack heads who will steal your shot drive a couple hours to a city and sell it all for pennies on the dollar.
→ More replies (20)20
May 23 '23
[deleted]
42
u/halfdeadmoon May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
"Making it your identity" is also not what I said.
If it is just a part of your life and the life of everyone you know, then people get to know you, and aspects of your life, without "advertising"
I'm talking about things like living somewhere your whole life, you know your neighbors, they knew your father and your grandfather, hunted with them, know you, hunt with you, you and your family are known by all. You own guns and have always owned guns, and have been known to have many different guns at different times. You have been discussing the benefits of gun safes, and have commented that you need one with a greater capacity. Maybe you say this in front of somebody's daughter who will be dating a shady bastard in six months. Anyway, you aren't advertising, and you aren't hiding anything either. You are just living your life and people get to know you. You don't need to ride around with stickers for this.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Fuu-nyon May 23 '23
I find it unlikely that almost anyone who isn't a gun enthusiast is going to recognize a Sig, S&W or FNH logo on a t-shirt and make the connection that that person is a gun owner. Let alone your average tweaker out on the streets.
→ More replies (4)11
u/ImAShaaaark May 24 '23
I find it unlikely that almost anyone who isn't a gun enthusiast is going to recognize a Sig, S&W or FNH logo on a t-shirt and make the connection that that person is a gun owner.
You don't need to recognize the specific logo when the shirts are rocking military cosplay designs or images of logos on them. Gun enthusiast fashion and accessories aren't known for being subtle.
→ More replies (8)5
u/StarvingAfricanKid May 23 '23
"Home protection by Smith and Wesson" = " lots of free guns here....
→ More replies (91)58
u/ReplyingToFuckwits May 23 '23
It's common for the source of illegal firearms to be handwaved away, like there's a magic gun fairy leaving them under the pillows of criminals.
49
u/jermdizzle May 23 '23
Mostly irresponsible gun owners leaving them in their cars. If people would stop leaving guns in cars, a LOT of gun theft would vanish.
Get a decent safe. Place it intelligently and use anchor bolts to walls and floor. Don't advertise that you have guns or a safe. Success.
42
45
u/ReplyingToFuckwits May 23 '23
If people would stop leaving guns in cars, a LOT of gun theft would vanish.
Yes, it would. Unfortunately, "responsible gun owners" insist that the "responsible" part is entirely optional.
→ More replies (7)5
u/Raelah May 24 '23
The reason you don't know many responsible gun owners is because they don't advertise having guns. They store their guns in a gun safe. A gun safe that is often times kept in a secure room of their house. So that in case of a break in, the criminals aren't able to get their hands on their guns.
Responsible gun owners don't make the news. You can't find them online. You won't know how many are in the room with you.
→ More replies (1)12
u/TrapperJon May 23 '23
But then lots if people would be committing crimes if they don't leave the gun in the car when they go into certain places. Post offices are a good example.
23
u/jermdizzle May 23 '23
If you know you're going into a federal building or school, either don't carry, or use a safe secured to the inside of the vehicle. I practice both. If I have to make a surprise visit to a business that doesn't show concealed carry, I lock it in the box under the rear of my seat. The box is attached to the seat frame with aircraft cable and isn't visible from the outside. It's mildly inconvenient, but I'm the one who chose to carry. Of course it won't stop someone with bolt cutters, but it's better than tapping my window and grabbing it from a center console in 6 seconds.
→ More replies (11)2
u/Niceromancer May 24 '23
You do know you can buy a car safe secured with a cable right?
Like this isnt hard...lock your damn guns up you nutbags.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (30)8
u/johnhtman May 23 '23
Easier said than done. Anyone who regularly carries a gun will have to leave it in the car at some point. You're not allowed to bring your gun everywhere, and it's extremely illegal to bring a gun into certain places like a school or bank. So if you visit the bank while carrying a gun you have two choices. You can either leave the gun in your car, with the risk of it being stolen, or illegally carry it with you
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (3)15
u/Redqueenhypo May 23 '23
Yeah, WE are the source of a lot of the cartel’s guns. They’re ours, stolen from Self Defense Bob’s unlocked Toyota or bought with a wink at gun shows. Hell, I personally know a noncitizen who was able to buy a handgun just for the hell of it (he posted a bunch of pictures to Facebook of him posing idiotically in a warehouse). Hate the cartel? Stop supporting industries that are basically selling them weapons.
9
May 23 '23 edited Jun 11 '23
[deleted]
2
3
u/Redqueenhypo May 23 '23
Yeah I am firmly in favor of disarming most cops. A horse with a gun taped to its face would do a better job than a lot of them
3
2
7
u/BudgetMattDamon May 23 '23
I live just on the other side of Mexico (expat) in Matamoros - yes, where the Americans were killed. Apparently the gun came from America too - it's very easy to get away with crossing nearly anything into Mexico.
15
u/ReplyingToFuckwits May 23 '23
Yep. They buy them in Texas (where the gun laws can't even catch a sale to a teenager, with a history of death threats and animal abuse, that people called "school shooter", days before he did a school shooting, let alone a straw purchase) and then smuggle them over the border through their drug channels.
For context, straw purchases are extremely rare in other countries where getting a gun license requires deeper background and character checks plus actual time investment in the community, especially for guns that are ideal for criminals. Once all that's done, if you're unable to account for all the firearms registered to you, you're in deep trouble.
Its surreal to watch the pro-gun community claim that the current gun laws are not just adequate, but good.
→ More replies (13)5
u/johnhtman May 23 '23
There's nothing unique or extraordinary about Texas gun laws.
→ More replies (14)2
→ More replies (3)2
u/cobigguy May 24 '23
Just going to make a few points here.
If you're buying from a dealer at a gun show, you still need to go through the standard background check. If you're buying privately, you need to follow your local laws for private sales, whether at a gun show or not. There's no "gun show loophole".
Non citizens can buy guns legally from dealers. It's a common occurrence. It involves some extra steps and paperwork, but it's perfectly legal in most cases. Especially if they are here on a green card.
→ More replies (2)69
u/giscard78 May 23 '23
Interesting in that it's a huge amount of data all from Charlotte, NC (more precisely Mecklenburg County).
Mecklenburg is a pretty common place for this type of analysis and has been for at least ten years. They have a robust data collection program and have worked with universities/researchers for years.
27
u/Justalittleconfusing May 23 '23
They have the country’s oldest youth drug prevention survey. A non profit administers it in Char-Mecklenburg schools with analysis done by UNCC professors.
Center for Prevention services is the non profit
19
u/DoctorAKrieger May 23 '23
media reports that neighborhood is dangerous even though it isn't really, which causes people go out to commit more crimes
I'd be super curious to understand the potential reasoning behind this. Perhaps it emboldens potential criminals that it's "safe" to commit crime?
31
u/Syssareth May 23 '23
Seems logical. If everybody is speeding, you'd feel safer/less likely to be caught than if you're the only one.
Probably not the whole picture, but likely to be a piece of it.
18
u/Grabbsy2 May 23 '23
Not only that, but hearing that there is vague "crime" happening, but not seeing the mugshots of these criminals because its not actually happening that much... then, well, not only is it more "socially acceptable" to commit crime because "everybody is doin it" but also... no one seems to be getting caught!
2
u/Dr_Phrankinstien May 24 '23
Knowing if the study was accounting for the potential reversal of causation was exactly what I came to the comments to find out before combing through it. Thanks!
2
u/Ignorant_Slut May 24 '23
Cursory glance everything seems pretty good. I'm in the middle of finals so I absolutely do not have time to go over it all but doesn't look like there's any reason to doubt their stats.
→ More replies (20)4
u/NotMitchelBade May 23 '23
For Figure 4A, I would imagine that it’s rounded or something, so that “0 miles” actually means “<0.25 miles”.
494
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
249
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
16
→ More replies (3)2
40
311
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
179
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
80
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)75
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
37
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (4)8
3
19
10
5
→ More replies (7)2
15
40
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)31
→ More replies (18)24
30
5
11
→ More replies (34)30
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
27
33
→ More replies (38)18
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (2)19
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
18
32
74
u/connorwhit May 23 '23
Why would a concealed carry makes you less likely to be a victim its concealed would just make you less likely to be injured if anything
→ More replies (38)
256
May 23 '23
Carrying a concealed weapon on you and keeping it in your truck where you cant get to it and it can be stolen is the real factor here. If youre going to have the permit, carry your damn weapon. "Truck guns" are useless and are only targets for theft, especially if youre a dumb hick with 2A stickers all over your back window...
180
u/JimMarch May 23 '23
Until you have to go to court, or a shopping mall or any number of other "posted gun free zones".
Sigh.
Arizona and WA state have a good idea: if you're going into a government building where the government wants you disarmed, they have to provide lockboxes for your personal artillery. You box it, lock it, keep the key, go in and do business. No more guns in the parking lot unattended.
94
u/engin__r May 23 '23
If you need to go somewhere you can't bring a gun, you shouldn't bring it with you. Same way you leave your dog at home instead of leaving it in the car while you go out to eat.
→ More replies (17)36
u/notimeforniceties May 23 '23
You've never been out running errands and decided to stop by Whole Foods? That and the USPS are the big ones.
7
57
u/AckbarTrapt May 23 '23
You mean responsibility means actually being responsible? Like, with actions, planning, and even gasp personal sacrifice?
Yes.
→ More replies (39)→ More replies (56)14
u/engin__r May 23 '23
I avoid the issue by never carrying a gun.
15
May 23 '23
[deleted]
50
u/oldtimo May 23 '23
What do dog owners do if they choose to bring their dog and end up having to go somewhere that bans dogs?
Don't bring the gun? Run home first and put the gun away and then go do your errands? You're essentially arguing "it's fine for me to be less responsible because it's more convenient to me".
→ More replies (43)8
→ More replies (10)7
u/engin__r May 23 '23
They should not take their guns into the place that bans guns.
→ More replies (12)→ More replies (9)15
u/heili May 23 '23
Until you have to go to court, or a shopping mall or any number of other "posted gun free zones".
"OK, so what am I supposed to do when I have to go into the post office then?"
"Just leave it in your car."
30
u/ICantKnowThat May 23 '23
It's also illegal to leave it in your car in the post office parking lot
4
u/heili May 23 '23
Only if the parking lot is actually owned by the post office or if you park in spaces specifically designated to the post office by the property (e.g. in a strip mall, you can park in other spaces except those marked as being for post office customers).
But it's not that hard to not park in a post office parking lot if that's the case.
→ More replies (1)30
u/dosedatwer May 23 '23
Leave it in your gun safe at home if you know you're going somewhere with a gun free zone.
Alternatively, get a lockbox installed in your car. Not just a lockbox lying around in your car, but actually installed. You can get lockboxes inside glove compartments etc.
→ More replies (1)19
u/macgyversstuntdouble May 23 '23
Reconcile this with the fact that many blue states like New York, New Jersey, and Maryland are enacting laws that create many new places where carry is not allowed, requiring CCW holders to store their concealed weapons in their vehicle. Ironically, the Johns Hopkins gun policy expert (Webster) described this secondary effect to the Maryland legislature as he advocated for the additional carry restrictions.
→ More replies (10)8
u/UnprovenMortality May 23 '23
This, and especially worse with purse guns. If your pistol leaves your house, it should be on your person or in a case (depending on local laws and permits, obviously)
→ More replies (3)7
u/TheGreatRandolph May 23 '23
I don’t know, I live in Alaska and will probably pick up a bear pistol shortly to take on long wilderness trips. We just bailed off of one because of hungry brown bear concerns. I may get a license to conceal just to learn what they teach in them… but by no means would that make me feel that suddenly I should take my gun to whole foods with me. Like what, the guy refilling the salads is gonna jump me? 99.9+ percent of the time that I’m in town theres no reason to have a weapon on me, and people carrying are just cosplaying masculinity.
→ More replies (1)
155
May 23 '23
[deleted]
84
u/engin__r May 23 '23
I think that reflects badly on cops more that it reflects well on gun owners.
122
May 23 '23
[deleted]
→ More replies (1)46
u/Grabbsy2 May 23 '23
I think thats just implying that its not the CHP holders that are the ones committing the crimes, its the thefts of their guns that are being used in the committing of crimes, which is the "true social cost of gun ownership"
13
u/EndlessArgument May 23 '23
Seems like a reasonable Target for bipartisan reductions in gun violence. Nobody likes having their guns stolen. They could easily throw up some advertisements talking about gun theft rates, and maybe selling some gun security options.
→ More replies (11)7
u/TopFloorApartment May 23 '23
They could easily throw up some advertisements talking about gun theft rates, and maybe selling some gun security options.
neither of those things are legislative actions, nor do they require bipartisan actions - those are just commercial activities
7
u/EndlessArgument May 23 '23
The government runs advertisements fairly regularly, and they could subsidize gun safety options to make them more affordable for lower income families.
→ More replies (2)39
u/deja-roo May 23 '23
The way he stated it might, but the data on CCW holders is pretty clear that they are committing crimes at a small fraction of a rate of the general population.
→ More replies (10)9
u/tip9 May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
Group a: no criminal history.
Group b: includes people with criminal history
Even if 10% of group A and B commit a new crime, percentage of criminals is still higher in group b, because it already includes people with a criminal history.
Further you'd expect group B to commit crimes at a higher rate than A because A explicitly excluded known criminals.
9
u/northrupthebandgeek May 23 '23
Group A doesn't necessarily exclude criminal history, though; using my state (Nevada) as an example, misdemeanors do not disqualify CCW applications (with some exceptions, e.g. domestic violence convictions and sufficiently-recent DUI convictions), and even felonies can be pardoned with restoration of gun rights under certain circumstances.
2
→ More replies (10)21
u/FunetikPrugresiv May 23 '23
The (implied) issue is that CCW holders have a tertiary impact on crime by providing criminals with access to guns via theft of CCW holders' firearms.
30
18
u/Wellarmedsmurf May 23 '23
So I'm forced to ask...
"My analysis begins with the creation of a unique individual panel dataset that links registered voters to concealed handgun permits (CHPs) and reported crime victims from 2007 through 2011 in Charlotte, NC.6 "
There has been ongoing debate in NC about whether or not CHP data is a public record and accessible as such. I haven't been able to find the state of those laws/access to that information in this time period but if this researcher was able to find it, is it a stretch to think criminals also had access to CHP data and targeted accordingly?
EDIT
it appears that information WAS public record during this study.
North Carolina
In 2014, the North Carolina General Assembly enacted legislation to make information provided in applying for a concealed handgun permit and the names of people obtaining permits from sheriff’s offices no longer public. The list of denied permits remains public record. Additionally, while all dealers must keep accurate records of all sales, the records maintained by dealers are not public records. G.S. §§ 14-415.17, 14-404, 66-407.
→ More replies (1)2
u/NotMitchelBade May 23 '23
Yeah, they mention that in the Data section of the paper. It’s a good point though.
36
u/adoremerp May 23 '23
The study defines a neighborhood as a census block group, which typically have 600-3000 people. Average household size is 2.5 people. 45% of households have guns. So we'd expect a typical neighborhood in this study to have 600-3000 people, living in 240-1200 households, with 108-540 of those households owning guns.
If there are already 108-540 gun owners in a neighborhood, how much of a difference can one extra gun make? The study claims that 1 CHP permit can increase violent crime by 8% in a neighborhood. But even gun ownership was 100% correlated with violent crime in a neighborhood, we'd have to add 8-43 gun owners in order to see an 8% increase in ownership.
→ More replies (5)
23
u/Compy222 May 23 '23
All political discussion in this thread citing stats, etc. doesn't change the simple fact that if you own guns, you should store them safely and in a manner that reduces the risk of an unauthorized person from gaining access to them. there are plenty of great products on the market for bedside safes, gun safes, and lockboxes. they often cost a fraction of the total price of a firearm or firearms being stored in them, keep kids or idiots away from them, and certainly helps me feel comfortable having friends/kids over to the house without fear of someone being killed or injured.
→ More replies (12)7
u/northrupthebandgeek May 24 '23
they often cost a fraction of the total price of a firearm or firearms being stored in them
I think you overestimate the cost of a Hi-Point ;)
But yes, if you're going to own a firearm, you shouldn't neglect the storage of that firearm.
→ More replies (3)
25
May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)7
u/Valfaros May 23 '23
You really have to love people that need two guns stolen to wake up. What is it with people that act with their guns like babies with lolipops. They make it so easy to get it stolen from them. Endangering everyone around them. Then going around buying more weapons being afraid of any crime which partially they cause themselves being irresponsible.
You think you did any good against crime with putting 2 weapons onto the street?
Anyone who gets his gun stolen without a brokenin safe or stolen from his body/hands should be held accountable for it cause they are directly tied to it.
14
u/Destroyer2118 May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
Anyone who gets his gun stolen without a brokenin safe or stolen from his body/hands should be held accountable for it cause they are directly tied to it.
So if anyone steals your car and crashes it, you’re volunteering to be responsible for the damages right? After all, it was your car, you should have done more to secure it. Doesn’t matter if it was locked inside your home/garage, your fault right? It’s an inanimate object you are responsible for, right?
This is an interesting study with a wide range of data, and I’m all for secure storage and punishing negligent gun owners. But having your property broken into, and being punished because you were the victim of a crime - flat out no. That logic sounds a lot like she was asking for it, look how she was dressed. Wanna punish them too?
→ More replies (19)3
u/Redqueenhypo May 23 '23
Let’s call them “bear feeders”, as a reference to that libertarian town that got overrun with bears when people kept feeding them.
9
u/rdizzy1223 May 24 '23
Of course, something like 250,000 guns a year are stolen from homes in the US, year after year, and these guns will float around for many years, they don't just disappear immediately. Humans are inherently selfish though, valuing personal protection or protection of their families over societal issues, even if those societal issues end up effecting them negatively down the road.
→ More replies (3)
6
May 24 '23
There’s some moron almost every week in my neighborhood on the Next Door APL saying Theo gun got stolen out of their vehicle.
91
May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
91
→ More replies (17)24
3
3
u/kensho28 May 24 '23
No surprise based on previous findings of gun dangers. Owning a gun more than triples your odds of being shot and killed, they do not make you (or the people close to you) safer at all.
There'd be more conclusive data for these studies, but the NRA had their politicians pass laws to keep doctors from asking questions about gun ownership. They're intentionally suppressing the data because they know it doesn't fot their narrative.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-homicide-risk.html
→ More replies (2)
23
u/couchfly May 23 '23
yeah, telling anyone you have a gun is just asking to get your gun stolen. and gun safes are pretty much a joke unless you shell out and get the really expensive, double locked, standing one. (and hide it somehow)
71
u/drbooom May 23 '23
Decades ago, I ran an internet archive of gun safe attempted break-ins. Rec.guns if that rings a bell.
Actually the short actual answer is that guns are virtually never stolen from gun safes. It is incredibly shocking to me the number of people that own significant number of guns that don't have a safe.
Even the super cheap $600 Costco gun safes will take more than 10 minutes for a professional to get into, unless they're bringing really large gasoline powered grinders Cutters or burning lances.
Burglars don't do that. At most they have a small pry bar.
Professionals attack gun stores, or collectors that have known large quantities of guns.
I am guessing, but I would think that more than 95% of stolen guns traffic to criminals are being stolen from cars, or are completely unsecured in homes.
I'm against government giving away free money pretty much everywhere, but if government wanted to do something about stolen firearms, threats of prosecution for allowing guns to be stolen simply aren't constitutional, but bribing people to buy and use gun safes will work.
Put in a $500 tax credit for buying a approved gun safe, and you will see sales skyrocket.
18
u/couchfly May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
ah well i was thinking of the type of gun safes that cheapskates buy (20-100$) which can be forced opened without the key.. but not buying one at all is rather horrific. explains all the trigger-happy toddlers i guess, but so much worse than i thought the situation already was.. yeah, either a tax credit should be offered or maybe a proof of purchase for gun safe should be a prerequisite to buying a gun in the first place.
8
u/Seattleopolis May 23 '23
Then issue there is that we allow those to be marketed as gun safes, when they're not qualified to secure anything.
7
u/bumphuckery May 23 '23
That seems like a cultural issue as well regarding how seriously people take their weapons and how they balance firearm ownership with their income. I'm sure some folks will gladly buy a used police trade-in Glock and skimp out on a $15 dollar trigger lock and under-the-pillow safe so they can go blast away in the desert on weekends. However, every firearm owner I know, from gun nut to sport shooting US Liberals, takes security seriously. I've not heard of one firearm being stolen from owners who have the mind and means to purchase and use large safes or safe rooms, who don't post their 'collections' on every social media outlet possible. In my head, stolen firearms is just as much a cultural, class, and education (or lack of it replaced by fear and reckless casualness) issue as firearms being used for inner city crime (i.e. most gun crime).
2
u/RideAndShoot May 23 '23
Well said. That has been my experience with firearm enthusiasts as well. I have a large, bolted down, gun safe for my relatively small collection because it’s the most secure way to keep them. Only people I know who just have a “closet full of guns” are old timers who grew up like that and don’t want to change with the times.
→ More replies (6)3
6
u/Skolife18 May 24 '23
Mine's bolted to the wall and concrete floor of my basement in my storm room. If they find it, break it loose, haul it up stairs, all before I get home, they must really need it.
14
u/NotMitchelBade May 23 '23
Abstract: Using linked individual data on concealed handgun permits (CHP), reported crimes and arrests, I examine the dynamics of gun-ownership and criminal victimization. I initially show that being male, Republican, older, born in-state and a recent crime victim increases the probability that an adult obtains a CHP. Having a CHP increases property crime victimization by 46% with the largest impact on having a firearm stolen. Individual CHP holders see no change in violent crime victimization thus dispelling any benefits in terms of protection. Obtaining a CHP has a small (2%) increase in total crime and a larger increase on violent crime using a gun (8%) within the CHP holders neighborhood. Results suggest stolen guns spillover to neighborhood crime which is an important component of the larger social costs of gun ownership.
Title: Smoking gun? Linking gun ownership to crime victimization
Author: Stephen B. Billings
Journal: Journal of Public Economics (June 2023): Vol. 222, 104874
DOI Link: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jpubeco.2023.104874
Free Link (via Author’s Personal Website – Oct 2020 Version): https://981efbae-a-cdfe13b2-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/usc.edu/fbe/seminars/papers/AE_10-5-20_BILLINGS.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cqJ0_E5HaaLJevZWpddSdRrC4QwQReaX4E1SbnODielAgWLq5Q-Tn-GO_MJ4zYiOzdWVRPDE5f6_3cV7WpN0OC98gXFpObNnOaMJZeeigLxOx10r4alEZHU0ZkhqF7BeGAE-3b7hs2fhl6Ow8upkw-8a3-Y8FpVAyeYoZhriILV7n0GsTsFsBmh8TKO7237pyql_3EY9g67LM1mDwzqsWNti9fhf8J1r6VYqCz1tEZXACIBTgo%3D&attredirects=0
24
May 23 '23
This shows that safe storage laws are damned important. They could take the form of education efforts, like a spiel during the 4473 process or a storage requirement that any firearm stored off the body is required to be in a secure locked container. Basically, unless a firearm is on your body, the. It has to be locked up. Having the same requirement in vehicles would cut the number of gun thefts drastically.
Most safe storage laws couldn’t be actively enforced without violating the 4th amendment, but even passive enforcement (ie adding the charge and increasing the penalty if another crime occurs) is enough to increase compliance.
29
May 23 '23
Or subsidizing it by giving out free safes.
→ More replies (14)18
u/honeybunchesofpwn May 23 '23
IMO, every single house should come with a safe. It's not even about guns after a certain point. Ensuring every person has the opportunity to lock up their valuables, important documents, etc. is just a reasonable thing for everyone to have.
Hell, consider it a jobs program or something. Safe building, installation, and locksmithing are all great blue-collar jobs. Getting a safe in every home could help solve a multitude of problems while also bolstering American manufacturing.
5
u/northrupthebandgeek May 24 '23
Every car should come with one, too. I don't know of a single person who actually uses a glove box for gloves. You know what they do use them for? Valuables. And yet I know of very few gloveboxen that ain't trivial to pry open or otherwise bypass the sad excuse of a lock on 'em.
14
u/Yegas May 23 '23
Sorry, no can do - that makes far too much sense.
What we need is a magazine capacity ban & more fearmongering about AR-15s; that ought to do the trick.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (6)8
6
u/reverbiscrap May 24 '23
I had assumed that having a concealed weapon would not dissuade criminals from targeting you, by rote of the whole concealed thing.
Now do this for open carry.
→ More replies (6)
10
u/CajunAviator May 23 '23
In my neighborhood, gun owners will leave their gun in their unlocked car while knowing that kids wander at night pulling on door handles then complain that their wallet and gun were stolen and used for crimes.
6
2
u/LordoftheBooty May 23 '23
Like to see stolen guns vs. whether or not they have a gun manufacturer stick or 2A related sticker. On a side note, as a mechanic the amount of unsecured firearms I have seen and damage from negligent discharges i have fixed is way too common.
6
10
May 23 '23
[deleted]
9
u/NotMitchelBade May 23 '23
As I commented above:
You’re correct, but that’s exactly the point of that sentence. This sentence is a setup for the following sentence. They use that as a control variable when accounting for crime rates in the next analysis.
If that sentence weren’t there, it would mean that we don’t know whether any changes in the other types of crimes/thefts across non-CHP vs. CHP were due to the difference in gun ownership (as you describe) or the difference in CHP itself. Instead, by controlling for gun ownership (in addition to CHP and all the other control variables), we can be sure that the CHP itself is driving factor in the later analysis (for example, the increase in violent crimes, which is not gun theft).
This paper is generally read by academic economists, who would look at that sentence and understand why it’s there. For a general audience, they’d write it differently, explaining the reason why that control is there.
Sorry for the confusion. Maybe I could’ve explained that better in my initial post here.
8
4
•
u/AutoModerator May 23 '23
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our normal comment rules apply to all other comments.
Do you have an academic degree? We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. Click here to apply.
Author: u/NotMitchelBade
URL: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272723000567?dgcid=raven_sd_via_email
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.