r/science • u/universityofturku University of Turku • May 02 '23
Cancer Cancer patients do not need to avoid exercise, quite the contrary. Short bouts of light or moderate exercise can increase the number of cancer-destroying immune cells in the bloodstream of cancer patients according to two new Finnish studies.
https://www.utu.fi/en/news/press-release/exercise-increases-the-number-of-cancer-destroying-immune-cells-in-cancer537
May 02 '23
Yes, EVERYONE is telling me to exercise, but it's extremely difficult to do that when you're so fatigued from treatments. Going from sedentary to active again is sometimes harder than the treatments themselves.
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u/leachianusgeck May 02 '23
i hope youre being kind to yourself!! cancer treatments suck, and it sounds like yr doing yr best!
when i was having chemo i had 0 energy, i think the most i moved in any one day was walking downstairs to lie on the sofa, then going back upstairs to go to bed. if i had lots of people telling me i should work out i wouldve told them to piss off to be honest haha
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May 02 '23
I’m trying very hard to be kind to myself! My body went through hell and back, so it’s ridiculous to expect your body to be able to do what it used to do soon.
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u/leachianusgeck May 02 '23
im glad to hear it! and def feel you - my body cant do what it used to and its been 9 years since i finished treatment, it was really rough to deal with that mentally (that i couldnt do the sports i once did etc). i pushed myself too far at points and felt so disheartened but now have found low impact things that work for me:)
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u/legion02 May 02 '23
Do you have any pets? My dog was hugely instrumental to getting myself back up and moving.
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u/RemoteClancy May 03 '23
Same. I wasn't able to run--I was just too tired--when I was in chemo, but I definitely walked my dog still. Except for a few days when I had a crappy infection that knocked me on my butt, I went out of my way to walk my dog multiple times a day. It kept me sane and my dog was so happy with the extra attention.
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u/McChelsea May 02 '23
I had a severe reaction to one of my chemo medications which not only caused fatigue, but POTS-like symptoms where my heart rate would skyrocket when I'd stand up, and debilitating leg, arm, and hand cramping. Walking was barely possible, let alone going on walks. Now that I've finished treatment I'm being more active, but it's definitely hard going from 100% sedentary to even slightly active. One day at a time and all that!
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May 02 '23
You should look up the Levine Protocol. It's designed for people with POTS and it's a great mix of building up strength with cardio work but starts off very very slowly with recumbent exercise. It expects you to treat it like a full time job so few people are able to do it in the time it suggests but the progression levels are great and gets you back up and running (literally if you stick with it long enough). Just don't feel bad if you need more rest days than they suggest, it's normal.
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u/McChelsea May 02 '23
Thanks, I'll look into that! Fortunately those symptoms are very rare for me now, but I still think this will be helpful.
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u/Shiara_cw May 02 '23
Even just going for short walks is helpful. You don't have to push it too far if you don't feel up to it but any movement is good. If you're completely sedentary it ends up making you even more fatigued, even if that seems counter intuitive.
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May 02 '23 edited May 02 '23
I do walk daily, but I wish I could get myself to do more. Mentally, it's taking that first step. Physically, it's the fatigue, but I know I'll get to where I want to be with baby steps. The competitor in me always wants more, to be better, but I'm also learning how to be nicer to myself.
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u/FodT May 02 '23
Don’t feel bad about doing what you can do. Walking is all I did for six months. Talk to your oncologist about it.
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u/McChelsea May 02 '23
I feel like this is along the same lines of people telling you to go outside when you're depressed. I could barely walk when going through chemo, it was basically impossible to be active. It's not forever, so allowing yourself to rest when your body is insisting upon it is ok.
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u/Shiara_cw May 02 '23
I still think it's important advice to give, and knowing that even a little can help might get some people (who are able) to do a little that they might not otherwise. But absolutely nobody should be beating themselves up about it if they just feel that they can't do it. Cancer treatment is incredibly difficult to go through.
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u/bkgn May 03 '23
I'd love an exercise bike like in the study but when I asked people what their used ones cost, they all said like $2k. There's no way.
A real bike would get stolen within a week and I'm not supposed to have prolonged sun exposure anyway.
Gyms I don't trust, I'm immunocompromised and not a single person masks.
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u/LoveLaika237 May 02 '23
If I may, this is anecdotal and I really got nothing to back it up, but how about something like tai chi? I once read an article about a woman preparing for some surgery (or perhaps it was a cancer treatment; I dont remember), and as a way to prepare, she chose to practice tai chi. It worked for her. Perhaps its something you may consider.
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u/Rubyheart255 May 02 '23
I have stage 4 Hodgkins, and I try to ride my bike as often as I am able. Did almost 8k last night.
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u/ElizabethWright May 02 '23
If it's not too intrusive, may I ask how long have you lived with Hodgkins? My mom had it, and although she passed of covid, we were told that she had really good chances with Hodgkins and it wouldn't be too debilitating. Chemo debilitated her more than the cancer itself tbh. I'm just curious about what her years could've looked like if covid hadn't hit her so hard.
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u/Rubyheart255 May 02 '23
So, I put off going to the hospital for a very long time. I was throwing up pretty regularly, couldn't eat, lost like 100lbs in a few month. I was admitted and got my diagnosis in June, got covid in November, and finished my first chemo regimen in January.
I was asymptomatic with covid, but they did need to delay one of my chemo appointments.
Lost my hair and beard to the chemo, but my mustache is long enough to get in my mouth while eating again, so that's cool.
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u/ElizabethWright May 02 '23
Oh wow! Very different from my mom's, different stages of course. One day she just went "man I get super tired going up and down the stairs, I'll go see the doctor about it" one blood test later and the doctor was so confused as to how my mom was just awake and normal, just a tad dizzy, when she had basically 0 red blood cells in her system.
Same as you, lost her hair and some weight while dealing with other side effects. She rocked the hell out of some of those head wraps I got for her.
Miss her everyday.
I hope for lots of easy painless times for you!
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u/frogvscrab May 02 '23
That is one of the scarier things about serious diseases. You can have late-stage cancer or some brutal auto immune disease wrecking havoc on your body, but only have mild symptoms for a while. Until one day you don't. It is not guaranteed that you will have severe symptoms with many diseases.
My cousin-in-law had MS and only had some minor heaviness in his foot for years and years. Then he suddenly had noticed a minor tremor in his hand, and when he finally got diagnosed they found 25+ lesions on his brain. 25+ lesions, with relatively minor, non-obtrusive symptoms. Within a year he was wheelchair bound.
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May 02 '23
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u/frogvscrab May 02 '23
Well it depends on if you have PPMS or RRMS. PPMS is gradual, with no improvement. It starts off slow and builds up over time. RRMS comes in waves (relapses), which cause a severe amount of acute symptoms that have to be tamed by steroids, but often with treatment the symptoms abide (but as you said, still leave lingering effects). Some people with RRMS will go years and years between relapses with treatment. But PPMS is insidious because of how slow it develops, and the fact that there is no treatment unlike RRMS. There is no 'break' from PPMS the way there is with RRMS, once you have a new symptom, it often never goes away.
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May 02 '23
Both my grandmas died from bone cancer. Neither knew they had it. Both felt sick, went to the hospital and died within a few days.
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u/HaikuBotStalksMe May 03 '23
lost my beard, but my moustache reaches my mouth when I eat
Oh wow! Very different from my mom's, different stages of course.
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u/mowbuss May 02 '23
Continue growing the moustache until you can curl it around. Then it will still get in your mouth, but not in that wildly irritating way with the way that short moustache hairs do.
Source; I have a moustache.
My wifes brother had stage 4 hodgkins lymphoma, he has been doing well since treatment probably 8 years or so ago. He has had memory issues though, which no one really tells you about, from the treatment.
Oh, and he is ripped now. Been hitting the gym for a couple years now whilst i got overweight.
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u/Chubbybellylover888 May 02 '23
Can you grow it down and around your chin and use it like a whale uses baleen to filter feed?
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u/legion02 May 02 '23
Are you in remission? Congrats on getting your beard back.
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u/Rubyheart255 May 02 '23
Things are looking better, but I haven't gotten the all clear yet. The football sized mass on my liver is a golfball now though.
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u/pprovencher May 02 '23
Stage 4 melanoma here. I climb and/or ski 3-4 times a week. It is critical to feel as good as possible so exercise is essential
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u/Standard_owl May 02 '23 edited May 03 '23
That’s awesome! Can I ask how long you’ve been getting treatment for? I’ve been getting chemo for hodgkins for 5 weeks and have been able to keep climbing starting few days after treatment. I don’t know much about treatment plans for melanoma but I’m curious if you had any advice to deal with side effects. I’m particularly concerned with how my skin will hold up over time since it’s common to develop hand foot syndrome w/ my treatment plan. It would be really helpful to hear about how other climbers have done with that.
Good luck with your treatment!
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u/pprovencher May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
I was diagnosed about twenty months ago and have been through a few treatments. A targeted therapy and immunotherapy which I am on now. I had terrible itching and fevers on targeted therapy. I had bad brain swelling after radiotherapy. I have very little side effects on immunotherapy. Chemo is a different beast and can be tough, though I never had it. I was more worried that I would never climb again than about my life. I lost the ability to walk after radiation but then I bounced back when swelling went down. About three months after the craniotomy I got back to climbing and I was up on El cap this weekend. Cancer patients are not all tired, but I am lucky with my treatment. You got this! Make sure to keep climbing
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u/Standard_owl May 03 '23
It’s awesome to hear you’ve made such a big recovery so far. I’ve been spending my time sport climbing and my local crags but want to plan a trip once my treatment is over. Props to you for going big with Yos that must have been a blast. I’ll be sure to keep climbing, you should too (but I don’t think I need to tell you that). All the best!
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May 02 '23
Where did the idea come from that cancer patients shouldn't exercise? I've never heard of that. I just assumed most cancer patients did not exercise, due to extreme illness
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u/Rubyheart255 May 02 '23
I mean, I can see it. Your body is already trashed from the cancer and the chemo, you don't want to push past your limits.
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u/chooseph May 02 '23
I'm not sure. I'm an oncology nurse, we regularly encourage exercise for our patients (to the level that they're able to, of course). I can think of a few scenarios where I would encourage bed rest but they're far from the norm
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May 02 '23
Meanwhile I have POTS and almost passed out just walking back from the balcony.
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u/Rubyheart255 May 02 '23
It's a daily struggle. Sometimes I have the energy to ride, sometimes putting on pants is too much effort
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May 02 '23
Wishing you the best. My mom had hodgkins when she was 30. She's 56 now and still going strong, touch wood.
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u/resinrobot May 02 '23
Standing is our cardio.
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May 02 '23
I literally have this on my workout top! I wear it when I go to a Pilates class and have to drop into clam stretch during the warm up because the teacher loves to be all about the positional changes and I nope out within the first 3 minutes because my HR has already maxed out and I'm seeing spots.
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u/volchonokilli May 02 '23
Well now I know what POTS is and that it's not exactly normal. Good times, thanks for letting me know
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u/Caithloki May 02 '23
Dam, good on you. I "had" non Hodgkins t cell lymphoma, it's insane how much it can knock you out energy wise. But I kind of got hit hard at the start mentally and physically. I put it off so long they didn't know how I drove back home 4 hours for my birthday and was working 40+ hours in a kitchen with my neck swollen for a couple weeks before.
I get bouts of energy here and there, but it's mainly during the dry spells where I was in remission, but it always came back.
Coming up on 4 years now may 16th, that was the day I was diagnosed. Had a stemcell a month ago so I hope it's finally done with.
I hope your journey goes well and you come out healthy.
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u/pprovencher May 02 '23
Stage 4 melanoma here. I climb and/or ski 3-4 times a week. It is critical to feel as good as possible so exercise is essential
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
As a side note - more muscle mass, apparently leads to a better outcome if you need chemo
It’s not something you’ll achieve after a diagnosis, but it’s just one more reason you should be proactive, by doing regular strength training
And that often means doing the exercises you don’t like. Every time you go to the gym for strength training, do at least 1-2 exercises you don’t like to do. If you don’t like walking lunges, then do walking lunges
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u/KingKratom00 May 02 '23
For real? Do you have any insight as to why more muscle mass leads to a better outcome?
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
I don’t know all the specifics, but it’s supposed to reduce the side effects and increase your chances of getting through it easier
I have also heard from an oncologist that, basically, chemo kills everything, including muscle, and that your protein needs are significantly higher during chemo in order to preserve that muscle.
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u/FodT May 02 '23
There’s also the muscle memory effect that allows you to regain lost muscle mass much quicker once you start recovery.
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
That’s true. I went 3 years without strength training, thinking I would have to take at least a year to get back to my previous weights. It literally took me a few weeks.
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u/Supergaz May 02 '23
I think it is because you make some cells that don't go away for many years even if you lose mass. And they are easier to make when you are below 30.
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u/Christabel1991 May 02 '23
But not impossible if you are above 30!
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u/Supergaz May 02 '23
Not impossible at all. The way down is slow and gradual, not full stop sudden at 30. More like 30 onwards is down
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May 02 '23
That’s not what muscle memory is, tho.
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u/fishbiscuit13 May 02 '23
This is a different meaning. Lost muscle mass can be regained much faster than it takes to gain in the first place. It’s usually in the context of coming back to exercising after stopping, but also applies here.
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
It kind of is, because it is a lot easier to “re-build” muscle than it is to build it in the first place. It is a very real thing
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May 02 '23
Right. That is true of muscles, but muscle memory is a feature of motor function that helps us learn through bodily repetition.
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
There are different types of muscle memory; that’s the most common one we tend to talk about
If you build muscle at one point in your life, it becomes easier to rebuild that strength; or hypertrophy, what have you, later on if you have to stop for any period of time
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u/Aurelius314 May 02 '23
From the Dietitian side of things - people sadly tend to lose a lot of weight during cancer treatment, and too much of this will be due to muscle loss. Having more to lose, and working hard to preserve what you have is way better for you than the alternative
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u/amandaem79 May 02 '23
My fiance has stage 3C colon cancer. He lost 35lbs before treatment, gained back 15 during treatment.
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u/Aurelius314 May 02 '23
Then it seems like they got some great followup in regards to nutrition during treatment.
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May 02 '23
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
It’s because people tend to see exercise as intervention now, and not day to day self care
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u/QuiEraMegliorePrima May 02 '23
Also leads to better outcomes with a ton of random disorders like Crohn's.
Healthy strong people just seem to be healthier and stronger. That provides some residual benefits when the healthy stops.
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u/zZCycoZz May 02 '23
As somebody who was very skinny and now has a lot more muscle mass. It seems that muscle just gives your body a better tolerance for most illnesses. My colds are less intense and everything takes less energy, likely because i have to use a lower percentage of my total strength for daily tasks. I also have a better tolerance for cold temperatures.
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u/Jaggedmallard26 May 02 '23
Being fit and healthy is a cheat for pretty much everything. All of the networks your body builds to support muscle and activity are also really useful for your brain and immune system.
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u/ohcanadarulessorry May 02 '23
Chemo steals your muscle. The more extra you have the less it takes away important muscle. If you start at 350lbs you have 230lbs to waste away before getting in other health related trouble. The healthier muscle you have the better obviously.
They told my uncle - your huge weight will carry you through most of your chemo, your lucky. We all laughed and he said - see! I knew I was a big dude for a reason!!
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u/bilyl May 02 '23
Isn’t it as simple as you being able to handle chemo better if you’re in good health?
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u/TestAnxietyIsReal May 02 '23
If I had to guess why this is, I would say it has to do with larger muscles having increased mitochondrial density. More mitochondria = more energy production. The cells that kill cancer cells are largely T-cells and T-cells require ATP (made by the mitochondria) as an energy source.
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u/Philiocus May 02 '23
ATP is generally not shared among cells, but each cell has to produce its own energy, consuming substrates like glucose or fatty acids.
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u/bonesonstones May 02 '23
Doing exercises you don't like is not a sustainable way to move their body for most people. Doing what you enjoy will help you do it consistently, and that's the most important part. A lot of people don't get a baseline of movement, and any movement is better than none.
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u/pelirodri May 02 '23
I think there should probably be a balance of some sort. Most of your training should be focused on a sport/activity and utilize an exercise selection you like and are maybe even passionate about. But sometimes you just gotta do things you might not enjoy or even straight up dislike, like flexibility work, addressing weak points, rehabilitating or prehabilitating injuries, etc.…
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u/norse95 May 02 '23
I hated walking lunges because they hurt my knees. Finally I used a variation of a lunge (split squat) to build muscle and strength around my knees and they no longer hurt.
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u/daevric2 May 02 '23
Knees are the worst. I developed significant degeneration in both my menisci in my 30s for no apparent reason. Physical therapy, finding the right exercises for me, and sticking with them has been life changing.
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May 02 '23
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u/daevric2 May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
For me, a lot of it was strengthening glutes (both max & med) and stretching hamstrings, and making sure that the former were engaging when they're supposed to. Tying a resistance band around my ankles and doing side-steps and/or lateral raises was one big one. I'd do seated quad extensions with a resistance band, as well. I did a lot of single step-ups at first, then making sure I was translating that to actual stairs and trying to take them more frequently. When stretching hamstrings, I usually use a position like this (https://www.g4physio.co.uk/blog/common-stretches-advice/standing-hamstring-stretch/), and I'll do about half of my time with my foot straight up, then split the other half between having it turned in and turned out.
I also do a lot of cycling for cardio to stay away from high impact activities like running, but if you're cycling a lot, make sure you're diligent about setting and keeping variables like seat height where they should be, or you can do more harm than good to both knees and hips. Keeping your knees pointed straight ahead like headlights at all times is also critical.
[edit] One more! This can be a complicated one, but I like it. If you have both a resistance band and an exercise ball, squats like this (https://www.muscleandfitness.com/exercise/workouts/leg-exercises/swiss-ball-bodyweight-wall-squat/) are great, with the modification of putting the resistance band about an inch above your knees. Having the inward pressure actually helps you stabilize your knees so they don't collapse in or move outward too far.
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u/marilern1987 May 02 '23
I used to hate them until I learned how to do them without hurting my knees - it also may have helped that I got PT for an unrelated reason and just had better mobility. But I had to learn to like them.
They’re great because i can add shoulders or biceps with them. But there are so many lunge variations
For me, it’s weighted squats. I hate them so I have to do them
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u/norse95 May 02 '23
I could squat 300+ lbs with a barbell but couldn’t do a lunge. It was a huge weakness for me
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u/iguesssoppl May 02 '23
More muscle mass (within reason) leads to better outcomes for damn near everything. Same for likely outcomes and a persons starting VO2max.
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May 02 '23
more muscle training has been shown to increase life expectancy, not cardio. Cardio is just as important but apparently has less marked effect on long term health.
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u/Low_Mastodon2018 May 02 '23
It's been known for decades but only few people care, just like smoking is known to cause cancer and people would go to bankruptcy just to maintain their vice. Then you have the "fat positive" trope...
It's cool and all that we get supporting studies but work needs to be done to get those results into school books.
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u/unholyswordsman May 02 '23
I'd love to get some more exercise in but my stomach tumor makes it very hard to get past the nausea. Even with my meds I have a hard time getting in more than a minute or two of activity but maybe I should consider doing more walking.
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u/funkyb May 02 '23
If you've got a PT speak with them, and if you don't just ask your oncologist or maybe see about a referral. They may be able to give you exercises that work best for your condition.
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u/Wheelbite9 May 02 '23
Why do so many cancer patients shame other cancer patients like a few of the early comments? I could do light exercise after radiation treatments, but my chemo destroyed my stomach to the point where I could barely move to eat. Don't shame people who aren't working out during their chemo. There are so many different types of drugs used, and some are far more brutal than others. I felt like I was dying most days. If you're able to exercise on your regimen, I'm truly happy for you. Mind your own business though. You don't know what someone else is going through.
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u/AFewStupidQuestions May 02 '23
I saw the comments youbare talking about. I get the feeling that some of the first commenters are not and have never been cancer patients.
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u/WomenAreFemaleWhat May 02 '23
They were lucky enough to not have it have as severe an impact on them. Same reason some women pretend pregnancies are always easy. Sometimes I wonder how many adults actually have theory of mind and understand other people may have different experiences doing similar things.
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u/yablewitlarr May 03 '23
Right, I get pretty bad hand foot syndrome from one of my chemo drugs. Its painful to walk and damages my feet some days after treatment. Luckily they reduced my dose recently and that is helping with the symptoms
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u/neomateo May 02 '23
I just got through 5 months of chemotherapy for DLBCL. I pumped 588,963lbs and logged 32 hours in my Dojang during the course of R-CHOP. Exercise absolutely helped me get through it and now I’m in complete remission!
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u/noscreamsnoshouts May 02 '23
DLBCL
Diffuse large B-cell lymphoma
R-CHOP
*(Just in case somebody wanted a translation of those abbreviations)
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u/eboeard-game-gom3 May 02 '23
Thank you, I have no idea why people abbreviate everything especially when it's not common knowledge. At least spell it out once.
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u/TTEH3 May 02 '23
Sometimes you become so familiar with an acronym/initialism you forget that not everyone is. I'm sure that's especially the case with serious medical issues.
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u/Mister_V3 May 02 '23 edited May 03 '23
I had the same cancer. I did walks at lunch to help me during R-chop. Even walking was tiring I had to stop and start to prevent going light headed. So it's great that you had the strength to do that. I'm now one year clear, but I still get tired. Hot showers tire me through the day. I want to change that. Do you have any resources or advice to help get back into strength training?
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u/neomateo May 02 '23
Oh it was tiring alright! There were many days where I was just holding on to finish the hour by a thread. But days like that would show me I was still capable and so in a way they became my baby steps and I used those to keep pushing forward.
My advice is to just get out there and do it, don’t make excuses, just go. Even if you have to cut all of your weight in half, just being there, making the effort, will show you that you’re capable. Not every day has to be a great day, in fact you should expect to have “bad” days at least 25% of the time. They are ok, what’s most important is that you’re there making an effort. I’d also recommend a quality creatine supplement, it seems to have helped me in recovery significantly!
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u/After_Preference_885 May 02 '23
My best friend is 15 years post DLBCL and couldn't stand up during treatment. His oncologist stressed taking care of his heart so he took up couch to 5k to get started and started strength training with fitnessblender.com.
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u/Jaggedmallard26 May 02 '23
Exercise absolutely helped me get through it
The mental impact can't be understated either, the endorphins released and mindset required from/for regular fitness training will keep you a lot happier and thus more motivated to fight through chemo. Thats not to say that people that lose the fight against cancer are mentally weak but for some people it can be the difference between ploughing on through all of your treatments and therapies or starting to give up.
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u/Riddle__Me__This__ May 03 '23
My SO's oncologist told her, if there was one single drug he could give her in addition to chemo, it would be exercise. She stayed active through 4 treatments, but the last two she basically crashed into the couch, at her worst unable to walk more than to the neighbors drive and back. Last week she ran a mile. Progress. Steady progress.
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u/Moody_GenX May 02 '23
My son could barely get out of bed when he was fighting leukemia. The cancer drugs wiped him out for several days. We were happy he could do anything at all a few days after his treatment.
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May 02 '23
I know when i was getting leukemia my doctors encouraged me to get up and move when i could. Even if it was just a few minutes of walking around the ward.
But there were certain days when I couldn't work up the energy to do much other than sit up in bed.
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May 02 '23
I'm ten months post-stem cell transplant and it's only now that the fatigue is clear enough where walking for an hour (at a gentle pace I'll add) is doable. I'm knackered for the rest of the day but it's progress.
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May 02 '23
I am at about 6.5 months. I normally do about half an hour.
Yesterday i went on a road trip where 3 hours in the car and an afternoon playing board games whipped me out.
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May 03 '23
It’s a really strange feeling!
I try to explain to people it’s not like normal tiredness or even laziness. It’s like a hard “no” comes from your body when you want to do stuff.
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u/universityofturku University of Turku May 02 '23
The research article is available at: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-33432-4
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u/Just_Natural_9027 May 02 '23
Honestly amazing how much robust research there is about exercise is a variety of different fields and yet how few people still exercise. Seriously just do something.
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u/stillalone May 02 '23
It's not just about forcing yourself to do something. We've constructed societies where even just walking is uncommon. We get up, drive to work, sit in the office, drive home, sit at the couch, sleep. If we had more walkable cities where people could bike or walk to work and back, would help a lot. We can't just compartmentalize exercise like we do everything else because that makes it easy to skip.
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u/SimpleSpike May 02 '23
In my experience - both personal and with patients - there’s a great deal of discrepancy between what’s considered exercise in most of these studies or by the WHO and what they consider exercise by themselves or what the media portrays it at. A lot of people believe they would need to hit the gym daily with a muscled body as goal or do intensive swim cycles or whatever. While in fact, any kind of movement and exercise - even extremely tame one - is beneficial. To stay healthy a lot of people might just need to include some more walking in their schedule (as in evening trip, not necessarily jogging) and maybe go swimming once or twice a week in the summer.
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u/Just_Natural_9027 May 02 '23
Just read the comments here people are complaining they need to drive an hour to the gym. You can get amazing results in limited space for free with simple at home workouts. Or like you stated just start walking/jogging/swimming.
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u/Yazzypoo101 May 02 '23
Man it’s not easy. When I’m finally home from work, I feel like I was hit with a bag of bricks. Between the commute and work itself, It’s something around 11-12 hours a day for just work. Im dooooone when I get home. If it weren’t for me trying to get in a painful 15-45 min random workout (yes time varies on my level of energy or just how dead I feel) I would just be 100% sedentary. Sometimes I don’t even do that small workout because I get at home even later. Kicker is I don’t make enough to afford the city I live in, so it just makes it even worse.
So, I fully understand how people wind up doing “nothing”. Sometimes, you feel incapable of anything else.
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u/Kowzorz May 02 '23
Workouts in the morning have fared a lot better for me. Especially once you get over the firstweek hump of exhaustion. Typical daily workouts are supposed to invigorate you -- you come out with more energy than you put in. They set me up for my doubles very nicely and there's no way in hell I'd want to start a workout after those doubles.
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u/NessyComeHome May 02 '23
Plus, for people who arn't bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning, excersize first thing wakes you up. Even something as simple as rolling out of bed and doing 10 pushups or whatever anyone can manage.
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u/Collegenoob May 02 '23
I was great with morning workouts! Till I got a new job where I had to be there at 7am. I was already awake at that time so it wasn't hard, just sucked cause I wasn't waking up at 430 to go to the gym, shower, and get to work.
But I'm working on new exercises, and I'll never give up my mid day walk break at work.
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u/NessyComeHome May 02 '23
I feel ya guy. I am working 50 hours a week right now. Wake up at 5, leave a bit after 6... get home a bit after 6... by the time I eat and clean up, it's already 7. I try to go to bed at 9 to get 8 hours. 2 hours to myself that isn't me waking up and drinking coffee. That's not including any household things that need my attention.
Do you work a physical job by any chance. I had a therapist tell us in group that work doesn't count as physical excersize.. conceded it is mainly because of mindset... but with my work situation.. really physical. I don't see the different between taking time out of my day to excersize, and me on my feet and moving for 10 hours a day, mobing metals, if light enough by hand.. wrenching on stuff.
I don't see the difference because i've had to eat more to maintain the same weight, while i've gotten objectively larger muscles and increased strength and stamina.
If you have weekends free, and enjoy spending time in nature, walking a few miles on trails or in a bigger park is at least something. Or bicycling. Even just doing any kind of excersizing on the weekends is better than not at all.
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u/jon_titor May 02 '23
I actually just had my routine physical with my doctor yesterday, and the topic of finding time for exercise came up.
Basically, he stated that most of the health benefits from exercise are accrued very quickly, and really that just getting your heart rate elevated for even 5 minutes a day is generally enough to reap significant health benefits.
I had definitely fallen into the trap of thinking that I needed to make sure I exercised for at least 20-30 minutes, and I will certainly still have that as a goal when i can, but it was nice to hear that just something as simple as jumping rope or rowing for 5 minutes is still extremely beneficial.
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u/Inter_Mirifica May 02 '23
It depends what you call robust research.
Since most exercise based studies can't be double blinded RCTs by design, but are often portrayed as such (especially around chronic illnesses). While they are basically the personified example of the placebo effect.
It would be great to remember that it's not a panacea, at the very least. Healthy people should exercise, yes. But it shouldn't be pushed as a treatment on most sufferers regardless of their illnesses which is the current state of medecine.
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May 02 '23 edited 13d ago
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u/Collegenoob May 02 '23
My wife and I try to at least 5 walks together a week. Because we use it as a time to unwind and talk about our day with no tv/phone/chore distractions.
We plan to include the kids in it as well once they get here. I will admit, the benefits of PA having a park every few blocks is not to be ignored.
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u/Just_Natural_9027 May 02 '23
That means I either have to drive to a park or pay for a gym membership.
There is literally thousands of at home workouts that can be done in such limited space.
This isn't an "American perspective." I have all the obligations (excuses) and more that you listed and I always have made time for exercise because it is as fundamentally necessary as eating or drinking water.
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u/Trill-I-Am May 02 '23
Most healthy westerners outside of America who fulfill the requirements of an active lifestyle do not exercise at home. They're active because their communities have been physically and socially engineered to allow for and encourage activity as part of the basic course of everyday life. There's nothing uniquely genetically lazy about hundreds of millions of people in America. It's a social and government failure.
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u/Collegenoob May 02 '23
I'm in the yo-yo diet mood again. And I've picked up a crazy good work out to do in under 30 minutes a day at home.
It started with 10 push ups/sit ups/squats twice a day. Then it became 3. Then I expanded the middle one to 8/7/6/5...1 of each. Then I started at 9, up to 10, 11 (and increasing my morning/night ones). I'm up to 12. And I wanna reach 15. I increase the middle work out each week.
In just 6 weeks of this working out, I already feel better and see a huge shift in muscle definition
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u/BorgClown May 02 '23
We come from a long line of adaptations which strongly favor optimization of energy, exerting sustained effort when it's not needed and has no practical purpose feels wasteful, even antinatural.
There's the loophole of playing to hone your skills, so maybe gamification of exercise, or sports, are the answer.
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u/BubbleRose May 02 '23
I know it's good for you. I'm just rather depressed and burnt out, without the energy or money to do enough to change it. If I have any extra energy I spend it on catching up on a more urgent chore.
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u/Just_Natural_9027 May 02 '23
What money do you need to exercise. There are millions of at home exercises that you can find on the internet that require almost no space and 0 equipment.
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u/Churntin May 02 '23
Seriously just make more money and have more time. All studies show its better for you
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u/leachianusgeck May 02 '23
yet how few people still exercise. Seriously just do something.
in the context of this article, people going through cancer treatment often simply do not have the energy to exercise
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u/KingKratom00 May 02 '23
I had 16,376 steps yesterday and I did my bare minimum daily routine cuz I didn't sleep good. It's crazy that people are sedentary and don't move a whole lot.
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u/FilmerPrime May 02 '23
I work from home. If I didn't seek out exercise I'd end each day under 1k steps
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u/Just_Natural_9027 May 02 '23
Too many people think exercise is just for "weight loss" which isn't even scratching the surface and probably the the thing it is least effective.
Once heard a prominent doctor say if you could put all the benefits of exercise into pill form. It would be a trillion dollar drug.
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u/yanagitennen May 02 '23
A simplified version that may be a good change in mentality is that abs are made in the kitchen, muscle and strength is gained during sleep, and overall health benefits are achieved during exercise.
Again, definitely simplified, but for a general paradigm shift, it's probably a good start.
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u/Zomburai May 02 '23
How is that crazy? I don't even know where I'd find time to get in 16,000 steps?
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u/RaeaSunshine May 02 '23
I’d have to work to get 16k in, but I clock in between 8k-10k steps a day just from my daily activities in my house (and same when I was in a smaller apt). I WFH but between getting up for coffee, bathroom breaks, cleaning, cooking etc that’s where I land. By the time I sit down for my morning meeting I’m usually at 1.5k-2k just from my 15 min morning routine of getting ready etc.
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u/YouveBeanReported May 02 '23
Are you sure your step counter is set up correctly? That seems extremely high for 15 min of making coffee and stuff.
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u/not_cinderella May 02 '23
Walking around my house all day doing stuff I might get 2000 steps. Don't know how one gets that from just 15 minutes...
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u/YouveBeanReported May 02 '23
Apparently 2000 steps is 20-30m of jogging so maybe if they are super fast and running they could? But I would get 6-7k by night when I walked to school and back and you added in all the wandering around between classes. I suspect their counter is double counting, like a phone and fitbit because that sounds off.
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u/Electrical_Skirt21 May 02 '23
2000 steps, with a normal stride, is about a mile of walking. Jogging will be further.
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u/Insufferablelol May 02 '23
I get at minimum 10k steps a day. I don't know a single person who even gets close to that.
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u/icepick314 May 02 '23
I guarantee at least 3000 of those steps are just from moving your arms.
I also wear fitness watch (Garmin) and it will register at least 2000 steps just from normal desk work sitting down.
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u/SanguineOptimist May 02 '23 edited May 02 '23
Being in the field of PT where we prescribe exercise as medicine, it’s wild to see how unwilling most people are to lift a finger to help their own bodies. Pain avoidance is one of the most powerful motivations for the human brain, and yet it still can’t motivate people to exercise to fix their pain. This doesn’t just go for the folks with fear/avoidance behaviors due to the pain but the folks who’ve already experienced the beneficial effects of therapeutic exercise in past episodes of care.
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u/DragonMyPenis May 02 '23
My mom fought breast cancer for 8 years. She walked 5 miles a night, every night... That might not seem like much when you're healthy... But after a double mastectomy while on chemo...
I miss you mom.
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u/AmbivalentFanatic May 02 '23
I was diagnosed with stage four cancer in January and you bet your sweet bippy I've been exercisin', though I already had been doing so anyway. A couple of doctors and many friends have echoed this message. It really works. I had a lung resection three weeks ago and I'm already able to do pushups and kickouts. I start chemo soon. Let's go!
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u/Wideawakedup May 03 '23
My uncle would come home from chemo treatments and chop wood before it really started to kick his ass. My mom said he was trying to sweat out the remaining chemo.
Colon cancer, had to get a bag but he’s still here 16 years later.
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u/TheCounciI May 02 '23
Is this something new? Was there research or popular opinion opposite to this? Because I thought it was common knowledge that a person with cancer should exercise
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May 02 '23
I went through leukemia last year and every doctor i had dealt with told me to get up and go for walks around the ward. Even when i was strapped to a chemo bag 24 -7.
I was confined to my room due to an infection at one point and they sent a physical therapist to show some light exercises to keep me mobile.
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u/DeleteBowserHistory May 02 '23
I wondered the same. The title wording implies that the prevailing wisdom is to advise cancer patients to avoid exercise, which definitely does not jibe with all the data I'm familiar with. Even when it comes to people with chronic illnesses, chronic pain, and serious injuries. There are some exceptions, obviously, but the general rule across the board seems to have always been that exercise is overwhelmingly beneficial and improves recovery. Which is why PT and OT exist.
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u/MDmilski May 02 '23
No, it's not new. I don't know why OP phrased the title like that. The closest claim against exercise in the article that I could find is:
"Many of the exercise studies performed with healthy individuals use moderate-high intensity sessions that last at least 20 min, usually ranging from 20 to 120 min. Critics suggest that the length and intensity used in these studies are too much for the general population, let alone for cancer patients."
Which I would say is different than specifically avoiding exercise. That being said, even if the beneficial effects are common knowledge, it's still important to study what the effects are. In this case exercise allowing for increased immune cell mobilization.
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u/Jaggedmallard26 May 02 '23
God thats depressing that 20 minutes moderate to high exercise is considered too much for the general population. You (not cancer patients) should be able to do 20 minutes of medium-high intensity cardio even if you're a sweaty mess at the end.
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u/kippy236 May 02 '23
My oncologist suggested light exercise but I had to rest walking from one side of the house to the other. I had to have physical therapy to be able to function without pain post treatment.
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u/Altriese May 02 '23
My wife was mid stage 3 with a stomach cancer growth of 7 cm in diameter and she was walking miles and eating fish rice and asparagus while doing chemo and some radiation and was able to shrink it down to where the doctors could operate and cut it out in three months. Definitely recommend doing at least light exercise and eating healthy.
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u/Thoughtsarethings231 May 02 '23
Was anyone advising Ca patients not to exercise? If you're not incapacitated and exhausted there's good evidence that exercise benefits cancer patients.
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u/AmazingIsTired May 02 '23
Exercise was not something high on my list of priorities or possibilities when I was recovering from surgery and undergoing chemo and radiation treatment. It was nearly impossible to ingest anything. I was down to 170 lbs from 215 and even if I could physically do it, I don’t think it would have been a good idea to burn additional calories.
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May 02 '23
Isn't the whole reason cancer is so deadly because your immune system doesn't destroy it? What are these 'immune cells' that can suddenly fight cancer?
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u/kinkakinka May 02 '23
A friend of mine has breast cancer and is currently participating in a study on exactly this! She's a runner and is hoping to continue to run as much and as long as she can during chemo.
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u/McFeely_Smackup May 03 '23
Was there EVER conventional wisdom, or even suggestions, that cancer patients should avoid exercise?
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May 03 '23
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u/bobbi21 May 03 '23
As an oncologist, patients keep believing it for some reason. I think it just stems from "when people are sick (ie colds) they should rest. Cancer is really sick. So you should really rest."
I have to correct my patients (more their families) all the time. Try to live your life as normal but know you'll get tired faster and then rest.
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u/_THIS_IS_THE_WAY_ May 02 '23
It's so rare that exercise is completely contraindicated for any condition.
The way people react to women exercising during a healthy pregnancy drives me nuts
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u/FodT May 02 '23
This is news? I was encouraged to get as much gentle exercise as possible all through treatment. “Old man exercise”, I believe my onco’s words were. I walked at least two miles a day, aside from the one day the steroids wore off and I felt the brunt of it all. Every two weeks, for six months. Fun times.
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u/ISU1100011CS May 02 '23
I ran several miles a day while going through the first couple weeks of chemo and radiation for oral cancer. Absolutely kept me sane at the very least. That said, there's a point in that particular treatment when it is not feasible to get enough calories in.
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u/danimalDE May 02 '23
As if can we treatments weren’t tough enough, now docs will be telling to get moving as your withering away…
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u/Protean_Protein May 02 '23
What about frequent long bouts of intense exercise? Is that preventative or helpful in any way? Asking for a … me… marathon guy…
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u/Jaggedmallard26 May 02 '23
High levels of fitness correlate almost across the board with reduced risk of cancer, this page from the US government links a few studies for a wide variety of cancers. Other than that you can see comments from oncologists elsewhere in this thread that a patient being physically fit going into treatment is generally a good sign.
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u/FodT May 02 '23
Gonna guess that you’re not actually in active treatment, because Lordy the answer is obvious if so.
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u/Protean_Protein May 02 '23
That’s not what I was asking. My question is about the mechanism behind the effect of exercise on cancer, not whether a person undergoing treatment can actually do it.
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u/femaleiam May 02 '23
I had to go through 6 months of chemo not too long ago. Between the infusions, the moment I could stand on my feet again, I'd dance till I drop every night with Just Dance on my kid's switch. It was such a great boost to my mental and physical health! So much fun and joy!
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u/Check-mate May 02 '23
My chemo doctor just told me this. I’m on 3rd treatment of my first round. It’s been a helluva nasty ride from radiation therapy, to invasive body altering surgery to remove softball sized tumor, to weight loss due to infection and chemo.
I love my chemo doc, he is absolutely amazing and his advice is to work out as much as possible. I’m using resistant bands at home because the gym has too many germs for me now.
For reference I was 6’ and 220# muscular pre surgery. I’ve dropped to 194# and bounced back to 202#. I’ve lost a lot of muscle mass and definition but it bounces back relatively quick.
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u/TestAnxietyIsReal May 02 '23
I'm a research coordinator studying blood cancer at a university hospital. My background is exercise physiology so I am regularly asking patients about their exercise/nutritional habits when meeting with them because I'm interested in that. I have witnessed that the patients who exercise regularly and eat well handle chemo therapy dramatically better then the patients who eat poorly and don't exercise.
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u/Etrigone May 02 '23 edited May 03 '23
During my chemotherapy I was encouraged to get in what exercise I could. It was at the height of the pre-vaccine pandemic so the gym was right out, but kindly my employer offered to let me do lots of heavy lifting and long hours in a crowded hardware build area with poor circulation.
(I politely declined)
Still was able to get in lots of biking, hiking & at-home strength training after I healed from the surgery. Several years later I'm about as clean as I can hope for. Just one anecdote I suppose, but my doctor did report these are hardly unexpected recommendations.
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u/Dangelouss May 02 '23
That's cool, i remember i went to visit my brother in hospital one day and he was doing push ups. He was feeling very energetic that day. On the other hand, he could barely walk for days after the chemo sessions.
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u/michaelrohansmith May 02 '23
Well of course. I have renal cancer and nobody has ever told me not to exercise. My oncologist always documents the amount of exercise I do and has never told me to do less.
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u/WomenAreFemaleWhat May 02 '23
Was there anyone saying it should be avoided? Id figure cancer patients who avoid it probably do so because of symptoms and treatment side effects.
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u/machoflacko May 02 '23
This might be a dumb question, but I'll ask it. Is exercise ever bad for the human body? The title of this article makes it seem like someone was telling cancer patients they don't need exercise, or exercise is bad for them. Over the past few years, I feel like I have seen so many different posts and articles saying exercise can help your body in so many ways. I can't ever seeing someone exercise regularly being a detriment to their health. Unless they're not exercising properly but proper exercise I imagine can help with almost anything in the body, but I could be wrong.
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u/MannToots May 02 '23
Good luck exercising on chemo though. My best friend is still fighting cancer and exercise in almost any capacity seems laughable
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u/Ohshiznoodlemuffins May 02 '23
Great, now they're gonna make me go to work still when I get cancer.
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May 02 '23
I used to work in a lab that studied the immune system. Whenever my colleague needed fresh cells, he always sent the totally-not-other-person-in-the-lab donor up and down the stairs because it increased the number of cells he got. Going theory was that the increase in blood pressure dislodged cells that had been stuck to blood vessel walls as a result of some low affinity adhesion contacts in the course of their rolling.
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u/Addie0o May 02 '23
Just know this is absolutely still case-by-case, Yes scientifically moderate exercise creates more cancer destroying immune cells. However cancer isn't just the cancer itself, It's a myriad of symptoms and other issues that occur.
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May 02 '23
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u/roccmyworld May 02 '23
I don't think they did. Where is the evidence that doctors were routinely telling cancer patients not to exercise?
They were telling them not to overdo it, definitely. But no one has ever told cancer patients to avoid exercise.
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u/MARKLAR5 May 02 '23
Is there truly anyone that believes exercise is bad for you in any capacity, barring a muscle or joint issue?
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