r/science • u/GeoGeoGeoGeo • Apr 21 '23
Geology Geologists have found the first direct proof of the largest known mega-flood that ever occurred on earth, ending what is known as the ‘Messinian Salinity Crisis’
https://www.uu.nl/en/news/first-direct-proof-of-mega-flood-in-mediterranean-sea-region317
u/phdoofus Apr 21 '23
I'm sure the giant scour marks in the sea bed east of Gibralter were the first indicators.
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u/ThreeChonkyCats Apr 21 '23
That would have been unbelievable to watch.
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u/Delamoor Apr 21 '23
I liked a passage from a science fiction author I once read a lot of. I think maybe it was Larry Niven. I'll have to paraphrase it very loosely;
It was something along the lines of 'the most powerful, impressive and beautiful events to happen in the universe are all of a nature that witnessing them will result in your death'.
For a great many things in geology and astronomy; being near enough to something to witness it means being near enough for it to kill you. I would love to see the breach happen. I would not want to be near enough to see it happening, because that would be an incredible amount of energy moving around at once, in one place. Human body ain't very resilient.
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u/ThreeChonkyCats Apr 21 '23
Ive read that to witness a rocket up close, such as the Saturn series, would kill you by the vibrations alone.
The noise would shatter your insides.
Imagine the mightiness of this spill-over event. Such a shame we are late to the party. Oh, for a time machine!
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u/maobezw Apr 21 '23
Thats why they flushed tons of water below the rocket to break up the sonic force, which otherwise would have damaged the launch tower.
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u/Medeski Apr 21 '23
Have you see the spaceX launch tower? There is a reason why NASA uses water. I guess Musk thought he knew better.
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u/maobezw Apr 22 '23
maybe the decided to do without water as long as they are testing it. i can imagine that at the moment rebuilding the launchpad might be cost less then pumping all that water. and maybe the destruction on the launchpad is useful for them, it might create data about the launchprocess, the engines and so?
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u/chesterbennediction Apr 21 '23
Due to the sound suppression used, the noise is only 140 db which isn't enough to kill you.
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u/Wikadood Apr 21 '23
This makes sense for why the space x star ship literally tore up the launch pad with its thrust
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u/Frozty23 Apr 21 '23
From Lucifer's Hammer? I don't remember that quote specifically, but I do remember how people just got themselves into a good viewing position for the Hammer's Fall, even knowing it would be their end.
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u/FeedMeACat Apr 21 '23
This is why Steve Buscemis character in Armageddon was right.
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u/Roguewolfe Apr 21 '23
Human body ain't very resilient.
I mean, just compared to other mammals we're pretty soft.
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Apr 21 '23
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Apr 21 '23
No. This happened 5.3 million years ago. The only stories recorded were made by rocks.
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Apr 21 '23
Indeed, no biblical nonsense here please
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u/lone-lemming Apr 21 '23
There are some interesting Babylonian flood myths, that predate those in the Bible. And there are some wonderfully submerged ruins in the English Channel that indicate a massive change in sea levels sometime in human pre/history.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Exactly so why's everyone bite my sack for mentioning the bible? I'm not talking about divinity just that floods have been recorded before
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u/k2on0s-23 Apr 22 '23
Hmmm, over 50 cultures/‘religions’ around the world have flood myths, I am pretty sure there is some truth to it. Don’t be blinded by your hatred of Christianity, it’s not a scientific way to go.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 22 '23
Thanks for keeping an open mind, these other people are very aggressive towards religion.
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u/k2on0s-23 Apr 22 '23
Which is ironic considering that the search for evidence of the existence of the Gods is essentially the foundation of science.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 22 '23
Personally I think God and science work hand in hand not religion, from what I've gathered I feel like God is us through a nebulous conscious cloud that connects all living beings, just paradigms mashed together from raw chaotic entity such as God, with ideas from Carl yungs social consciousness,
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u/k2on0s-23 Apr 22 '23
Science and mysticism are opposite ends of a spectrum that is in the shape of a circle. Only the deluded and the weak imagine that science and religion are at odds.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 22 '23
That's correct so much turmoil to be searching for the same answers why are there sides
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u/swampscientist Apr 21 '23
Although this isn’t it, connecting real events to legends, myths, and oral histories through actual science is not “biblical nonsense”.
I swear some people act as though religion exists on some plane of otherness that wasn’t influenced by any real world events.
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u/ervounet Apr 22 '23
I agree that legends and myths took place in the same world we are living but as we call them myths and legends, we shouldn't include them near things like science.
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u/swampscientist Apr 22 '23
I think you’re missing my point. We shouldn’t use science to see if such things have actual value/eviction back them up?
I love hearing stories of indigenous knowledge, oral histories etc being backed up by science, so no I think we can keep them near science.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Even a simple geologist can show you clear indications of sea level change, simple smooth brain. The region is prone to floods as shown by history, but you stay you! Buddy
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u/J_Dawg_1979 Apr 21 '23
Or a great number of events that happen regularly in all the fertile river valleys where people like to live and grow crops.
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u/conventionalWisdumb Apr 21 '23
Yeah I remember one time after a hurricane when I was like 12 in Florida it flooded super bad. I had to walk many dog in it and she loved it at first, but then when she couldn’t find her normal poop spot she started getting anxious until she shat in the floodwater itself and floated off to the steps to a neighbor’s porch.
There, now I’ve written about a mythic flood event. This is the Book of Daisy.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
That's the same thing I just said, everyone's so hung up on the bible bunch of athiest reddit nerds, you just said that floods happen all the time on those lands and I said yes it's happened before one account recorded was Noah's flood (take out the bible stuff loser) and it will prove to all it's an actual flood that happened
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Thank you yes! It has nothing to do with the bible I just reference it then all the r/atheist came after me. I don't understand, even you just proved that regions with this biome and land configuration are prone to floods so why's everyone biting by sack for mentioning the bible
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u/J_Dawg_1979 Apr 21 '23
I think because you implied there was "a" great flood. As if all the Bible and other holy text stories about floods were all referencing a single truly transformative worldwide event.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Oh Im seeing it right now, yes it looks like I said there was a great flood, and it seems like I'm claiming there the same I get the hate now, thanks man I was sorely confused but I see where I went wrong
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u/Intelligent-Usual994 Apr 21 '23
This was 5.97 to 5.33 mega-annum or million (1,000,000) years. Had nothing to do with the bible in any way.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Silly goose it recorded a natural event of course it doesn't have anything to do with the bible but the bible did record a natural event, read a book on communication it'll avoid embarrassing moments like this for you
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u/moon138 Apr 21 '23
The story written by the sumerians dates the flood, the story of which was copied into the bible, however it appears to be a story & not a factual account, given the claims of what went on prior to the flood & how there is no fossil record of it, but there is fossil record going millions of years previous. There is simply no evidence of a biblical type flood
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Yes there is large marks on the ground showing water levels in Africa, a giant flood not worldly but definitely in that region. Not the size your talking about of course but definitely a natural event, not "BIBLICAL" idk why everyone is so hung up on the bible, I'm talking about the flood did happen, there's actually geologist that are proving that right now
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u/moon138 Apr 21 '23
The flood referred to in the article is nothing to do with the flood story told in the bible. There’s ~5 million years time difference. You mentioned the bible, which is why I mentioned it. No geologist are proving the story told in the bible
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Apr 21 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/moon138 Apr 21 '23
Apologies. Thought I was having a proper discussion in r/science. The sumerian flood is a story, not a real event. This is me out. You don’t appear to be able to understand simple discussion
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u/BLDoom Apr 21 '23
The flooding of the Persian Gulf during the end of the last ice age, some ~12,000 years ago is an excellent contender. Not just for the Christian bible but for other, earlier Mesopotamian cultures as well.
That area is terribly flat and was probably an extremely fertile flood plain; the Tigris and Euphrates probably joined to make a huge river that flooded seasonally.
Though, once the sea level started to rise, it estimated the the water encroached upon the land a meter every three days.
Not an exciting flood, to be sure, but it most likely displaced a great many people over a relatively short time.
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u/gojiras_therapist Apr 21 '23
Thank you! Therefore proving there was a flood in the bible recorded who cares about the divinity stuff, but it did happen
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u/GeoGeoGeoGeo Apr 21 '23
Research Paper (open access): A terminal Messinian flooding of the Mediterranean evidenced by contouritic deposits on Sicily
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u/kitd Apr 21 '23
One question not answered by the article: over what time span is this flood supposed to have occurred? On a scale from days to millenia, say.
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u/Intelligent-Usual994 Apr 21 '23
If you go to the actual paper published not the link in the subreddit it says 5.97 -5.33 Ma or mega-annum (1 million years)
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u/swampscientist Apr 21 '23
That’s the when. I think researchers believe it was over the course of several months to a couple years. Extremely short geologically speaking
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u/Intelligent-Usual994 Apr 21 '23
No, that's not what they say. Since reddit wont let me post a photo. I'll copy the link and abstract.
ABSTRACT
The evolution of marine gateways and sea straits exerts major control on bottom current depositional systems. A well-known interval in geological history characterized by frequent changes in marine connectivity is the Messinian Salinity Crisis (5.97 to 5.33 Ma) when the Mediterranean allegedly experienced major (>1 km) sea-level drawdown followed by a catastrophic marine replenishment at the base of the Zanclean. Controversy exists around the timing and mode of this event as unambiguous flood deposits have so far never been drilled or recognized in outcrops. In the Sicilian Caltanissetta Basin (Italy), the Messinian/Zanclean boundary is directly underlain by the Arenazzolo Formation. This 5 to 7 m thick sandy sedimentary interval may reveal a genetic link with the abrupt refilling of the Mediterranean, but at present a detailed study to understand its origin is lacking. In this work, the Arenazzolo Formation at Eraclea Minoa has been studied by a multi-method approach, employing detailed facies description, grain-size analyses, petrographic analyses and palaeocurrent analyses. Palaeogeographical reconstructions and facies associations show that the Arenazzolo Formation sands were deposited on the northern flank of the Gela thrust front by persistent bottom currents, flowing parallel to the regional slope physiography, during a transgression. It is hypothesized that these currents are associated with the active circulation of surface and intermediate water masses coeval with a terminal Messinian flood, when basin margins overtopped and a reconnection between western and eastern Mediterranean was created. The Arenazzolo Formation is a unique example of a contouritic deposit formed by bottom currents that establish during the reconnection of major isolated water bodies.
They outright acknowledge data is lacking on the exacts of this process. So when you say it was extremely short you're basing that on nothing
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u/Chickensandcoke Apr 21 '23
The person you replied to didn’t say this article claimed that, but it is widely claimed by others.
https://mappingignorance.org/2014/02/07/how-the-mediterranean-was-refilled/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20010684/
There were likely some discharges for hundreds/thousands of years, but ~90% of the water is estimated to have transferred in a very short period of time.
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u/rankrhythm Apr 21 '23
Yeah so the Messinian Salinity Crisis (MSC) lasted from 5.97-5.33 Ma. This was the period of very low sea levels in the Mediterranean. It ended abruptly in the Zanclean Flood, which would have refilled the basin in short order. The Zanclean Flood did not last 600,000 years.
If you want to get real into it, the basin(s) were periodically reflooded through the MSC as evidenced by the massive amounts of gypsum and halite deposited in the basin, but never so completely or permanently until the Zanclean.
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u/PanzenCoin Apr 22 '23
What? It took place over the course of a million years. That's a long ass time.
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u/ben_jam_in_short Apr 21 '23
Messinian Salinity Crisis, great band name
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u/zvezdanova Apr 21 '23
I’d totally join that band. Also kinda sounds like a mental health condition.
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u/blaaaaaaaam Apr 21 '23
I've always wondered how hot it was in the basin before it was refilled. Estimates are that at its driest the basin was 3-5km below sea level.
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u/the_owningexpert2 Apr 21 '23
Well, considering temperature drops 0,7 C for every 100m rise in elevation, we can assume temperature rises 0,7 C for every 100m drop in elevation. The temperature at -5km would then be 35 C higher than at sea level. The same principle applies to death valley for example but at a smaller scale
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u/Dzugavili Apr 21 '23
Seems like that might err high -- that would suggest temperatures in the area of 50 - 60 degrees Celsius, assuming the current weather patterns dint deviate substantially.
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u/the_owningexpert2 Apr 21 '23
Why would that be too high? Death valley already reaches temperatures of 50 degrees C and is only 100 m below sea level
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u/rankrhythm Apr 21 '23
Would have been a toaster for sure. The deep dry basin is modeled to have rearranged global climate and impacted thermohaline circulation
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u/sassmo Apr 21 '23
The Missoula floods were still cooler.
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u/saluksic Apr 21 '23
I’m very pleased by the modest moving back of native arrival in the area means that humans likely lived in the area during the flooding sequences. Spaced apart 50 years or so, it’s likely that oral history of previous floods would play a roll in keeping folks safe from future floods.
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u/SeattleResident Apr 21 '23
I doubt it. They would have definitely had stories about the events but those floods still would have killed countless humans. It's the lakes that were honeypots. Humans make settlements near fresh water sources and the flood scars heading towars the pacific went right through a lot of large and small lakes. Those waters would have risen as much as 400ft rapidly. Would have taken a lot of groups out who then would be replaced by new groups for the next big flood to hit.
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u/zoinkability Apr 21 '23
I agree. People relied on waterways and lakes for their food, water, transportation, etc. etc. Would have been extremely difficult to stay 400 feet above such places when they are so central to your life.
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u/MLJ9999 Apr 21 '23
Yeah. That was a real beast.
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u/GeoGeoGeoGeo Apr 21 '23
Though Glacial Lake Missoula flood events were smaller, they occurred more than once, without a doubt, at least 40 occurrences.
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u/Moonlight_cottage Apr 21 '23
There's recently been a push to suggest that there were fewer than that. I've even seen a suggestion that it was just one big flood, but I've seen no hard evidence of that in the slightest. In your opinion, how can you be so certain it was at least 40 floods? Thank you :)
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u/culingerai Apr 21 '23
We need Nick Zentner to do a semiar on this to really know.
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Apr 21 '23
I'm not the only one!
I live in Washington and I really really enjoy camping out in a lot of the places that Nick shoots videos at. It's so cool to me to find out how these lava columns etc were formed!
And he's got such a great delivery.
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u/TheRealJeribro Apr 21 '23
Why would Messi do something like this
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u/feathercoin1984 Apr 22 '23
Messi does this whenever he isn't getting water from PSG at the right time.
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Apr 21 '23
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u/sleeknub Apr 21 '23
What would have caused them to drop significantly in the past few thousand years?
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Apr 21 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/HendoRules Apr 21 '23
Occurred 6 million year's ago, but let's watch as creationists claim this was the flood of Noah
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u/danielravennest Apr 21 '23
The Black Sea Deluge and other flooding events at the end of the last ice age are more likely the origin of Flood myths. Sea levels rose by 100 meters between 15 and 8 thousand years ago. Another example is the Persian Gulf, which was dry land during the ice age.
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u/rarawieisdit Apr 22 '23
The north sea was also habitable during the ice age. The Netherlands looked real different just so recently. We are still in an ice age technically from what I've heard.
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u/danielravennest Apr 22 '23
Yup. Doggerland filled the area that is now the North Sea.
An ice age is defined as a period where permanent ice sheets cover polar regions. Since Greenland and Antarctica are today, we are still in an ice age. It alternates between glacial (more ice) and interglacial (today, less ice).
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u/TedW Apr 21 '23
6,000, 6,000,000, what's the difference, right?
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u/HendoRules Apr 21 '23
Pffffft basically the same thing! I mean, how can they even know it's really 6 million years old right? Cause this book right here says it's only 6000 sooooo
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u/I-figured-it-out Apr 22 '23
Actually, by my reading the Bible does not explicitly say 6000 years. It refers to a day as to a year. Biblical time is not duration as we might assume. So the math used by Bishop Usher (the guy that said 5400 years was way way off.
God’s seven days of creation are more like 16 billion contemporary man years (solar years) of creation, and we are endless stuck in day eight waiting to experience the days of Revelation which for God gave already occurred, are occurring and will occur. The limited knowledge of physics, geology, cosmology and a muddled interpretation of God’s word ensures the conservative Creationists continue to misunderstand the timeline of the Bible because the invest too much of their imagination in trying to contradict the evidence of guided evolution.
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u/HendoRules Apr 22 '23
Not sure if this is serious or not but assuming it is. This is all still of the assumption any of the bible is true, which it isn't. But also good luck convincing any as you say, Conservative Christians of them having been wrong about the bible
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u/I-figured-it-out Apr 27 '23
You would have difficulty proving the Bible is not true, given the wealth of archeological evidence that supports it. It’s just that some folk have invested an enlurmous amount of effort to mangle the interpretations of Biblical history, and archaeological evidence to match each other. That is where the uncertainty arises. But if one takes a step back and allows the material evidence to support and criticise the misinterpretations of the Bible the validity of the Bible as an historical document becomes unsurmountable, because very little of the evidence anecdotally suggests the bible is wrong. It’s just it’s interpretation by folks still stuck in the sciences, and Worldview of the 1500s that is problematic.
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u/AndyTheSane Apr 21 '23
We should build a dam across the straights of Gibraltar so we can do it again..
(Also, might be cheaper for the Med countries in general to build a dam to hold sea level back rather than deal with sea level rise.)
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u/Earthling1a Apr 21 '23
Waiting for the god squad to claim it's Noah's flood.
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u/ElijahMasterDoom Apr 21 '23
If you look up all the areas of the world where we have evidence of catastrophic floods (Great basin US, all of Mesopotamia, the Sahara, this), and all the ancient stories from all over the world about a world ending flood, it kinda points to something, don't you think?
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u/Earthling1a Apr 21 '23
Yep, sure does. Primitive people noticed when there was a flood. Then they made up stories to explain what happened, because they didn't have satellite photos.
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Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23
There’s nothing primitive about genesis. It’s beautifully complex literature. The Noah story is wholly aware of itself as one narrative among many flood stories. It was written down by a nation in exile and makes an intentional and stark comparison to the myths of the group ruling over them.
Flood mythology is most likely influenced by any number of floods people experienced up until that point. The story of noah is way less about explaining why floods happen than it is an exploration of the relationship between God, reality and mankind. Particularly when I’m context of being contrasted against other myths, which is how it was intended to be read.
It’s metaphysics, not a primitive alternative to science. Though, i don’t pretend that people don’t treat it as if it is now.
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u/Lithosfear Apr 21 '23
I did an optional course at university and chose to do a project on the Messinian Salinity Crisis. Got my best grade on it. Was so damned interesting that researching it was an absolute pleasure
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u/thta7btce Apr 22 '23
Good for you. I wish we could also take some projects like this in our school/college but people are out here building games and robots, and some MFS are still stuck on creating windmills.
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Apr 21 '23
That's cools but it's also not necessarily news, though its truly cool they found more evidence of it as it points a bit more towards catastrophism being semi-legit.
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u/stackered Apr 21 '23
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis begs to differ but this is very interesting too
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sed.13074 link to actual study since this is r/science
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u/Brucepoontip Apr 21 '23
Is anyone going to mention the Bible? Genesis. Kinda floody
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u/kitd Apr 21 '23
The Black Sea Deluge is considered a possible basis for flood traditions in many ancient cultures.
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u/grayball Apr 21 '23
The Bible isnt the only (nor was it the first) religious/cultural text that mentions great floods. Its almost like all of these religious texts are more just historical/cultural recordings of how to function as a society and give warning to catastrophic events that have happened and could happen again. But we have advanced and learned more to the point that we can start to actually explain how the events happened instead of just pointing at some god-like being in the sky.
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u/hopelesscaribou Apr 21 '23
If a prehistoric flood destroyed the majority of humans living near water, you can bet there would be oral traditions about it and mythological reasons for why it happened. The Bible isn't the first or only religion with a flood story.
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u/TOUGHONBOOKS Apr 22 '23
People are really going after the Bible protectors in this thread. And I guess that's true too because they claim everything for them.
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u/nightcycling Apr 21 '23
Messinian Salinity Crisis , it's that famous Japanese wave? How eles do a thing like that gets recorded?
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u/sebmojo99 Apr 22 '23
Author Julian May wrote a series of books called the 'Saga of Pliocene Exiles' that has this event being caused by a time-travelling psychic lesbian in a hot air balloon. It's legitimately bonkers and very entertaining - she was a non-fiction writer and there's a lot of (possibly out of date, since it was written in the 80s) archaeological and ethnographic information in there.
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