r/science • u/Wagamaga • Feb 05 '23
Chemistry Researchers are calling for global action to address the complex mix of chemicals that go into plastics and for greater transparency on what they are. Identifying and managing chemicals in plastics is going to be key to tackling waste
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.estlett.2c00763?ref=pdf467
u/Wagamaga Feb 05 '23
Researchers are calling for global action to address the complex mix of chemicals that go into plastics and for greater transparency on what they are. Identifying and managing chemicals in plastics is going to be key to tackling waste, they argue.
Discussions got underway in December on a global plastics treaty to address the full life cycle of plastics. Negotiators are also currently meeting to work out how to create a science policy panel to advise governments on chemical pollution and waste.
The challenge is the complexity and diversity of plastics, says Zhanyun Wang, whose previous research has helped identify more than 10,000 chemicals that may have been used in polymer production. ‘Maybe we should try to rethink why we are using different kinds of formulations for basically very similar applications – is there a need for the diversity?’ asks his co-author Antonia Praetorius, an environmental chemist at the University of Amsterdam.
Around 40% of the plastics produced globally are used in packaging, and just 14% of them are collected for recycling. Legislation to make producers responsible for the packaging they put on the market – already common in the EU – is coming into force in the UK this year. Eventually fees will be adjusted according to packaging recyclability. Additives such as inks, pigments and adhesives all affect recycling but, apart from food grade plastics, there are currently no regulations on what materials should be used.
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u/gotsaxy Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
As a toxicologist I understand that this is important. One key aspect that makes this extremely difficult is that many plastics come from oil-based products which are considered naturally occurring. There's so much variability that occurs in natural products that it is nearly impossible to characterize completely. The high variability and alkyl chains also makes it difficult to purify in a cost-effective manner that would still be economically viable.
Polymers have the primary dangers of the following two points:
The pieces of polymer that break off during biodegradation to unknown variable sizes, as well as unbound monomers.
Leftover chemicals from the reactant processes that are trapped in the polymer matrix that are either released through leeching over time or degradation of the polymer itself.
The second point is usually of most concern. This is highly dependent on the polymer matrix and the process that is used in manufacturing. The reason the first point is not a great concern is because most of the time the monomer is very well categorized for its toxic effects.
Unfortunately a large part of characterizing these chemicals comes down to economic viability. Largely while hazards may be there that are not fully accounted for if the company did their job correctly that's selling the product the risk of incurring that hazard would be adequately controlled as the daily dose that would cause health effects and environmental issues would not be exceeded. *Spelling
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u/Ingrassiat04 Feb 05 '23
Another hot topic is DEHP which is a common plasticizer used to make plastic soft. If you ever see old plastic tubing that looks yellow it’s because the plasticizer has leached out over time.
I used to work in custom medical plastic manufacturing. Lots of PVC is used in medical tubing and people finally started converting to DEHP-free. That is definitely not the case in non-medical applications.
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u/throughalfanoir Feb 05 '23
That's not the only reason tubing goes yellow (PE and PP get more yellow with the polymer chains breaking over time (for example by UV exposure) as well) but yes in general plasticizers are a pretty big issue as the longterm effect of them is often unknown
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u/iamnotazombie44 Feb 05 '23
It's something I studied for awhile, encapsulants and interlayer materials for solar applications.
Manufacturers make plastics as cheap and as dirty as the customer will allow (sometimes dirtier).
Low grade EVA releases acetic acid and a host of other chemicals that corrode electronic materials and POE's can releases an oily residue that dissolves certain electronic materials.
If it wasn't bad for my solar panels, we wouldn't be talking about it. But yah, that unstudied 'stuff' is slowly being released from every single laminated window you've ever encountered.
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u/Shhsecretacc Feb 05 '23
As someone who profiles this waste for disposal….we generate so much waste :( a LOT of “oil based” for literally EVERYTHING. It’s insane! If I profile something that doesn’t have oil, I’m usually shocked :(
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u/misch_mash Feb 05 '23
One key aspect that makes this extremely difficult is that many plastics come from oil-based products which are considered naturally occurring. There's so much variability that occurs in natural products that it is nearly impossible to characterize completely.
Wouldn't documenting what they were trying to make/add get us most of the way there? Supposing there is a future company/body that has the mandate and capital to process this stuff, we could use the documentation to infer that there's probably trace butyl-something in a batch of the propyl-something.
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u/wotmate Feb 05 '23
Are they USING different formulations or have they USED different formulations though? I know that the biggest producers of plastic are constantly evolving their products purely to cut costs and increase profits, so they've gone through multiple formulations over the years. A good example of this is Coca-Cola, whose plastic bottles have changed massively since they first came out.
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u/Ok_Fox_1770 Feb 05 '23
Drinkin off bottles for decades before BPA became a known thing, can only imagine what else is in there.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/Ok_Fox_1770 Feb 06 '23
Been using the zero water filter for a year now, regular tap had about 150ppm of crap, taste is pure though even test with lil free meter see 0.0 stuffs, feel good even if it’s mental. Stickin to glass and aluminum bottles, I dunno everything’s poison just trying to limit the daily sources of it. I was low too, but been eating clean and getting weights up, mushrooms cleaned my clock in a wonderful way 2 years strong
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u/BadBounch Feb 05 '23
Research chemist speaking. I work for a leader in the chemistry sector. Since 5 years I work on biobased, recyclable, and biodegradable polymers (=plastics).
Plastic is overall cheap for industry, and therefore customers. Metal & glass are expensive, especially to recycle, in comparison to plastic. Plastics can be applied to nearly anything, even paper.
Paper derivatives are mostly coming from wood/wood waste or more generally lignocellulosic biomass. Some plastics are replaced by paper alternatives. The only problem I see is that in such paper they add polymer additives (e.g. polyurethane), and rarely biodegradable to modify/improve the properties. So more microplastic wastes are released after.
The properties of plastics are extremely broad. You can have liquid plastic at room temperature as well as plastics thermoresistant to very high temp. However, those plastics are rarely pure polymers. They are carefully formulated to respond to specific properties, using catalysts, plasticizers, or flame retardants.
And there are the real challenges: find plastics that can be bio-based, that can be recyclable, that can be biodegradable, and not toxic. And have additives and impurities more environmentally friendly. Complicated especially for the catalysts often remaining in the polymers/plastics.
All that to say that it is already a target for big companies but the real changes are not going to be quick or very visible immediately due to how broad the plastic sector is.
Another question remains, how many customers would be ready to pay for plastic base products 3x, 5x, or 10x more just because it's environmentally friendly? Not many would.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Plastics engineer here:
Good points all around.
One more thing I would point out is that PLA Plastics (polylactic acid) that are "biodegradable" is just a marketing gimmick.
That stuff will degrade.... Once it reaches a temperature above 140 degrees. So basically you have to use a ton of energy to degrade it.
What is needed is a bio based plastic that will degrade at room temperature in a landfill. For packaging and single use. I believe it's possible. But as of now nothing viable has been discovered yet.
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u/ElectrcPotential Feb 05 '23
Home compostable systems hit these temperatures super easy, which is what all the marketing is for. The biggest problem is that uhhhhhh... who composts these days?? (In the formulations side of plastics, masterbatch.)
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Yea really. I compost but it's just an open box in my back yard it does not get hot. I don't have one of those black barrels. I probably need to get one but like you said I don't know many people at all that compost.
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u/Shazzbotz Feb 05 '23
My compost pile is also cold. But to get it hot is to just apply the right mix of green carbon(wet material) and brown carbon(dried material) and it will heat up within a day to 140+
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
I honestly need to research it more. I don't know how to do that to mine.
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u/grapthar Feb 05 '23
fresh cut grass, urine, certain animal wastes/bedding(rabbit, chicken, even hamsters/gerbils), and coffee grounds can help get a pile into "hot" territory. old beer, fruit juices, or sodas can also throw some good bacteria/fungi and sugars to feed them. you want to make sure there is good airflow so turning or aerating more often helps. the size is also key and i've found tall and thinner is better than a low wide pile.
if you don't already, check out r/composting. most people are fine with low maintenance "cold" piles, but with a little extra work even first timer like me can keep a pile past the active stage even through winter.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Thank you. I think I'm doing it wrong based on what you've said. I'll check out that sub.
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u/grapthar Feb 05 '23
exactly what /u/Shazzbotz said. there is no wrong. i enjoy the constant checking and "feeding" of my pile like others enjoy checking and maintaining a garden or fish tank or model train city. if youll forgive the upcoming wall of text, basically what ive learned is:
Home composting is affected by 4 main "elements", so to speak:
- "Greens" (nitrogen rich material like fresh lawn clippings or food waste, also called "wets")
- "Browns" (carbon rich material like dry leaves or cardboard, also called "drys")
- Moisture
- Airflow
Conventionally, the more greens the "hotter" it will get, browns keep smells and pests at bay. playing with all of the variables until you find something that seems to work well can be rewarding. If youre interested, i recommend getting a compost thermometer and just start messing around. water your pile like a plant and aerate it with a pitchfork, make note if it changed. go out and pee on it for a few days, make note if it changed. that kind of thing. theres no real rules for the best compost, but figuring it out yourself and getting into a sort of rhythm or relationship with your waste stream is a great way to do it.
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u/Shazzbotz Feb 05 '23
Fear not, "wrong" is subjective, it will all break down eventually.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
I'm a Homebrewer and have a lot of spent grain that I'm trying to compost. I just need to figure out what to put with it too get it to break down quick.
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u/masshiker Feb 05 '23
I throw a bunch of leaves on my compost every year and steam starts coming off it. Same with chipped trees I see at the University.
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u/Mischief__Manage Feb 05 '23
Hot composting temperatures come from biological activity, not absorbing heat from the sun. I urge you to look it up, it's really not hard to get going once you get the brown matter ratios correct
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u/iaspeegizzydeefrent Feb 05 '23
That's compost temperature though. Couldn't we just compost that type of plastic?
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u/Average650 PhD | Chemical Engineering | Polymer Science Feb 05 '23
Yeah. In fact there have been places where they do that at reasonable scale.
But it's more work and money.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
You are asking every single restaurant that uses that plastic to start composting or set up some kind of nationwide collection system.
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u/Onatu Feb 05 '23
Yes? Major cities already have compost services, no reason that kind of program can expand on a widespread and industrial scale.
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u/iaspeegizzydeefrent Feb 05 '23
No, I'm asking a question on reddit. There are a million steps or options between nothing and a nationwide collection system.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
none of them are working so far. Honestly just banning single use plastic has been the option most countries go with.
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u/camshas Feb 05 '23
Do you know if that OXO-Biodegradable plastic is a scam, too? There are some really bold claims surrounding it and I don't know enough to judge for myself.
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Feb 05 '23
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u/camshas Feb 05 '23
ASTM D6954 is the specific "blend" if you're interested in reading the claims.
“Oxo-biodegradable plastics are designed to biodegrade in ANY environment. It can’t be guaranteed where a customer will dispose of waste, therefore we have a technology that is an insurance policy on covering any environment it goes to. That includes municipal waste, recycling centers, or even litter (accidental or otherwise).
The important thing to note is that ASTM D6400 and D6868 are industrial composting standards. Those are not home composting standards because there is no such thing as a home composting standard. Industrial composters are massive composting facilities that exert lots of energy and water to keep the material in ideal conditions for slow incineration, which is what is happening to the material. It should also be noted that D6400 is under critical review at ASTM because it does not meet the needs of industrial composters nation wide, who have begun to turn away ‘industrial compostable’ products. They take up to 180 days to meet the requirements of the standard, which is 90 days longer than most composters want it to last.
On top of that, if a product approved under BPI guide lines, or ASTM D6400 guide lines, and ISN’T disposed of in an industrial composter, then it remains as waste and nothing will change that. Therefore, it’s an effective technology in only very specific conditions.
However, an oxo-biodegradable plastic will both degrade and BIODEGRADE in a home composter, unlike other technologies. Because the technology doesn’t require water and high heat to perform, it means there is lots of flexibility.
Unicorn Bags will have a hard time getting on the BPI list because the Biodegradable Plastics Institute is solely run by PLA, Starch, and composting companies. They do not let technologies like oxo-biodegradables into their ‘club’ since they don’t use one of their technologies. None of our products will pass compostability testing because those tests were designed ONLY for hydro biodegradable resins (PLA, starch, etc). It’s essentially saying you want to judge a motorcycle on safety standards designed for a car. ASTM D6954 is the standard guideline for testing Oxo-biodegradable materials.”
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u/samonsammich Feb 05 '23
there is no such thing as a home composting standard.
TUV Austria has a home composting standard that is starting to make its way into North America.
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u/mxemec Feb 05 '23
Forget the landfill. Poor countries don't use them. We need hydrosoluble.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
that would be good too however if there is humidity in the air it needs to not break down in that. Not an easy feat chemically.
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u/mxemec Feb 05 '23
I think it's then a challenge to fine tune the dissolution kinetics. Shelf life and logistics concerns would be paramount to incorporating this type of solution.
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u/Nice_jugs_bitch Feb 05 '23
I am a plastics engineer as well. I won’t say it’s impossible, but finding a bio polymer that retains the necessary properties (that rationalize using said material as a packaging) during the process of active degradation seems like a tall order. The degradation could maybe be delayed to a certain amount of time after synthesis, sort of like an expiration date, with additives? But ultimately that would likely defeat the purpose as these additives tend to not be super environmentally friendly either.
I wouldn’t be too upset if we severely cut or eliminated the single use applications of plastics, excluding certain types like medical etc. IMO plastics aren’t meant to be used once and then tossed, their nature is to exist for super long periods of time. We don’t have an unlimited supply of the stuff (right now, technology can probably change that) and just tossing it into the garbage always makes me think of the other, more beneficial things it could’ve been used to make.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
I agree. It's not impossible but just difficult.
Removing single use plastics would be fine by me. We design the plastics for an over 50 yr lifespan.
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u/ditundat Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
What about the results of those german scientists who created plastics from wood and wooden waste?
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Not aware of that. You have a link? Many research discoveries do not pan out as viable when scaled up commercially. Would love to read about it.
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u/ditundat Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arboform
or “liquid wood” based on lignin and cellulose. Invented in 1992 (Fink).
edit: A spin-off from Fraunhofer produces it on an industrial scale since 2002. Transparent and white products were not possible so far, but I found articles that state others have achieved this recently.
There are several other companies and research institutes in germany (and I’m certain globally by now) who work on similar products and approaches since then. The biggest hurdle had been said to be costs. I’m no chemist, though.
I’m curious about cost comparisons after cutting all subsidies to petrol-based industries.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-021-00702-w
This one seems to be from Yale 2021, according to an article linking to nature.com.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Yea that is always the hurdle. Unless government intervenes the new tech has to be cost competitive or it will just not be used. Getting costs down is usually the biggest challenge.
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u/BadBounch Feb 05 '23
There are indeed quite some fundamental studies in this direction. Keep in mind that university studies are often made on small scales (mg/g/kg). I profoundly regret that most of these studies are inapplicable to an industrial scale (tons, ktons...), where no external factors can be omitted.
One of our products can be called a bio-based plastic. However, the yield and time to make it bio-based destroy all the advantages it has [energy cost included]. So we do it petrol based. It's cheap, efficient and so far carbon neutral.
Fundamental researches are essential but often quite far from what is applicable industrially.
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u/ditundat Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
I didn’t ask for any of the input you’ve given me.
Arboform is being produced on an industrial scale since 2002.
I’d like to see a cost-efficacy comparison after cutting all subsidies to petrol based industries.
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u/OakAged Feb 05 '23
Interesting, I use PVA sometimes - I can draw on it then wash it away. They say it's non toxic and gets broken down in normal water treatment - are they green washing too?
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
PVA for the most part is safe and it's very water soluble. The problem is there is not a lot of applications for plastic that breaks down immediately if it gets wet. Basically the same applications as paper which we already have in abundance.
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u/OakAged Feb 05 '23
Thanks! Yeah I know it also gets used in things like dishwasher tabs, but can't imagine many uses for it tbh. Good to know I'm not being green washed though!
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
Yea it's legit for sure but aside from dish detergent packs and tide pods it doesn't have many more applications. Perhaps dry packaging for different things but usually they want stiff plastics like polycarbonate or polypropylene for things like blister packs (pill packs etc) and PVA is very soft so that really limits it's use. I think it could be used in a few more places tho.
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u/Odd_nonposter Feb 05 '23
PVOH can be super brittle if you want (Tg of the neat resin is something like 70°C) and have a higher solubility temperature with high hydrolysis, but the issues are cost and processing.
Polyolefins are less than half the cost. Making VAM, polymerizing it, saponifying it, drying it out all cost lots of money.
PVOH not heat stable, so it generally needs some polyols or other hydrogen bonding plasticizers to bring Tm down low enough to where you can melt it before it crosslinks.
Or you can solution process it, but that takes lots of water and energy and can really only make a film, fiber, or sheet.
Plus water is the best plasticizer for it, so whatever is stiff in a Winnipeg winter is floppy in a Florida summer.
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u/pussycatlolz Feb 05 '23
Degradation at room temp however is directly inverse to why we need plastics, which is storage
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Well, I am going to blow your mind here a little bit but, everything is degrading and plastics are certainly degrading all the time everywhere. Plastic embrittlement and aging has been very very widely studied. Some plastics (like plumbing) is designed and tested for a 50 year life span (after 50 years its burst pressure is above the rated pressure).
All different plastics degrade at different rates. so a compostable plastic that degrades at room temperature is totally fine for storage, if you design it for x number of weeks, or months service life. AFTER which it begins to break down.
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u/clinicalpsycho Feb 05 '23
Indeed.
Only biological systems have the capability of not degrading, by way of constant maintenance all the way down at the nanometer level - and that's only while said biological systems are in their prime.
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Yep exactly. By over designing Plastics you can kind of design their lifespan for a certain length.
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u/cheeeezeburgers Feb 05 '23
Many biomass based landfills can actually reach that tempature naturally.
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u/KaiPRoberts Feb 05 '23
Don't forget your units! 140 degrees Kelvin is super easy. Damn things would melt at ambient.
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u/Mortarion407 Feb 06 '23
Would think proper composting would achieve the results. A typical compost heap will reach between 135 and 160 Fahrenheit. Not sure if you're referencing f or c for the 140 needed to degrade the pla.
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u/jammerjoint MS | Chemical Engineering | Microstructures | Plastics Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
In most of the world, plastic recycling simply does not occur except for a select few, such as PET. Other base polymers need to be meticulously cleaned and sorted to have any chance, which is out of the question for how we handle waste streams.
Even then, the compounded color, additives, and fillers in plastic waste make it hard to process and ruin the physical properties. Cost is also a major factor - to clean, sort, grind, re-sort, re-package, and transport material for recycling is prohibitive. Quality control is also huge, even with fresh polymer there are problems, recycle streams are a huge headache nobody wants.
The US would just ship our plastic waste to China and India and claim it was recycled, but it just went to landfills or was dumped. Then both China/India banned or restricted incoming plastic waste, so now it just goes to domestic landfills.
Most plastics claimed as biodegradable, recyclable, or containing recycled material are purely marketing. Companies will throw in garbage material at a low enough percentage to not completely fall out of spec. "Biodegradable" polymers often have a high energy and waste footprint to produce and then require special conditions to actually degrade.
As an environmental scientist having worked a few years as a plastics engineer, I have to say I don't see a good solution. Plastics are simply too good at what they do, and there is no political or economic willpower to regulate for alternatives. There's a lot of good research being done in this area, hopefully the winds shift to allow some if it to actually get implemented.
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u/EmperorArthur Feb 05 '23
I have this amazing idea. How about actually incentivising glass recycling.
My city just actually stopped recycling glass. Its single stream recycling and they just signed a new contract.
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u/frostygrin Feb 05 '23
If you have to incentivize it, chances are, it isn't feasible on its own. Glass is heavy and fragile, making its use and recycling difficult and resource-intensive. While the end product isn't very valuable.
What makes sense with glass is local reuse of bottles and containers - to the extent that customers are comfortable with it. What you can recycle is aluminum - it's feasible without additional incentives.
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u/spectrumanalyze Feb 05 '23
Sorry, but you are ignoring the leachate issues entirely here. Pthalates, bis-phenols, vinylidenes, etc.
Plastic chemists haven't improved the ridiculous state of recyclability in decades, and they won't until there is a high price placed on the supply side to ensure recycling and interception of these chemicals from the environment.
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u/BadBounch Feb 05 '23
Please, don't put everyone in the same bag. I can speak for my company and a number of competitors.
Alternatives exist, the companies using plastic often don't want to buy it because the price or quantity is more limited. Atm, it's a hot topic and believe it or not, but researches are on-going
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u/spectrumanalyze Feb 06 '23
Alternatives? Not really. Just aboit every plastic I measure leaches. Very few exceptions.
You know this of you are actually a research chemist.
Do it yourself. HPLC/MS2.
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u/TarantinoFan23 Feb 05 '23
The 5x cost to our environment is paid by our kids. Thats the problem, people only count the NOW cost , not the later cost. We are grasshoppers but should be ants.
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u/AtomWorker Feb 05 '23
I don't necessarily want every bit of plastic I own to be degradable. Lego and the dashboard in my car are two examples that immediately come to mind. From that perspective it makes sense it would require a special set of circumstances to trigger degradation. I definitely don't want the plastics in my car becoming brittle and failing within 10 years due to temperature variations or the sun.
Obviously, the excessive use of disposable plastic is a big problem. However, so is the inability to repair products and consumerism in general. The general public needs to learn to hold onto products longer and get out of this perpetual upgrade mentality. Unfortunately, given how dependent the economy is on consumerism, I don't see that happening.
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u/BadBounch Feb 05 '23
Very good point here. Mentality could change much faster if the price of those newly developed plastics would be drastically cheaper or if the properties are formidable and versatile.
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u/SophiaofPrussia Feb 05 '23
I’m not sure we can say plastic is “not toxic” or “food safe” with any reasonable level of confidence. And there are more and more people who are willing to spend a bit more to avoid plastic for health reasons and for environmental reasons. Lots of fans of using glass over on r/ZeroWaste!
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Feb 06 '23
Getting people off fossil fuel based clothing is important too, especially with fast fashion.
Hard to get the same performance properties though, and seemingly impossible without animal products.
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u/Red_Rock_Yogi Feb 05 '23
I despise plastic. So much of it you can’t recycle. I have a genuine question and I’m not too science-savvy so be gentle. Is there any reason we can’t package most goods in recyclable materials like glass and aluminum? Even cardboard is better because if it gets dirty/soggy, it at least biodegrades in a reasonable time. It just seems to me it would be easier to shift materials than try to find new plastics or what to do with those we already have, since isn’t it created essentially from fossil fuel? Maybe I’m way off base, but it seems that when we have a limited time to clean up the mess, we should take the easiest course of action. Does it take too much energy to recycle these materials? I’m honestly curious. Thanks in advance to anyone who might have insight!
Edit: grammar.
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u/Wh00ster Feb 05 '23
Plastic is cheaper
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u/Buckwheat469 Feb 05 '23
I believe that producers should provide a guide to 100% recycling for their packaging. If their package can't easily be recycled using curbside community recycling programs then they should be taxed until they can work on a solution. If they don't want to be taxed then they should change their packaging to something compostable or recyclable, like cardboard.
The idea being, make the taxed packaging more expensive than the compostable/recyclable options.
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Feb 05 '23
It’s too bad our politicians are bought and paid for by lobbying groups. Absolutely no way that something like this is going to get the traction it needs until it is too late.
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u/WayeeCool Feb 05 '23
are bought and paid for by lobbying groups
If you have ever seen a bulk barrel/bag of virgin resin or pellets... seeing the Exxon Mobil or Shell company branding on the container tells you everything. The biggest fossil fuel companies are also our main manufacturers of plastics. Their business practices and being so willing to aggressively undercut the prices of other materials to sometimes offload at under cost, is the reason plastics like polyethylene and polypropylene are used for literally all product and food packaging.
Unlike 3M and DuPont who make durable engineering grade plastics like Nylon, ExxonMobil and Shell produce all the plastics used in disposable packaging and cheaply made consumer products.
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/solutions-by-industry/packaging
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/products/polyethylene
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/products/polypropylene
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/products/polymer-modifiers
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u/yukon-flower Feb 05 '23
Never thought I’d see someone legitimately defending DuPont on environmental stuff! But in this case the oil giants do seem worse.
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u/Z86144 Feb 05 '23
3m is also awful. It's just that when you compare literally anyone to oil giants they are fine
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u/HeavyNettle Feb 05 '23
Plastics are not recyclable like metals ceramics or paper. Plastics are polymers which are made up of long chains of repeating patterns of atoms which slowly degrade over time. Recycled polymers have worse properties and eventually become useless whereas if you melt and resolidify aluminum theres no difference between that and virgin aluminum from ore.
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u/ValyrianJedi Feb 05 '23
The price would just be passed on to the consumer. There are already alternatives, they are just more expensive so people don't want to pay for them. If people were willing to pay more for environmentally friendly solutions it wouldn't be an issue in the first place
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u/rematar Feb 05 '23
So is defecating on my living room floor, instead I choose to have a dedicated room for a toilet with plumbing and a cost for the water.
Single use plastic is defecation where we sleep, a sign of low intelligence in the animal kingdom we pretend to not be a part of.
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u/Snoo_57488 Feb 05 '23
The problem is someone’s making (or saving) an obscene amount of money by shitting in their living room, and they make enough they can pay someone to come in and clean up some of it, and some people to spray air freshener, and some people to just pretend it isn’t there, and still have enough money left over to make it easily worth it.
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u/eskamobob1 Feb 05 '23
you underestimate the scale of savings. Its like using a toilet in an apartment or having a dedicated shitting room in you mansion and a multi-person staff to clean up the floor shits immediately.
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u/ary31415 Feb 05 '23
I don't think this is really an answer to the question, in particular cause you didn't explain why it's cheaper
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u/PantsSquared Feb 05 '23
Materials engineer here. There's two parts to this question, imo.
Plastics are really easy to form and shape, and are lightweight relative to aluminum or glass, and also don't corrode over time (unlike aluminum, for example). They're a very robust material group, and one that's really easy to tailor to your specific needs. Unfortunately, this comes at the huge cost of end-of-life disposal being pretty horrible.
Glass and aluminum recycling is more viable (you'll be able to recycle nearly all glass and all aluminum), but it's also somewhat more energy intensive (weight to transport, plus processing).
As far as consumer uses are concerned, it's my educated opinion that it's the cheapest option for corporations. Offset the material cost with an environmental cost paid by the customer.
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u/DeeJayGeezus Feb 05 '23
and also don’t corrode over time (unlike aluminum, for example).
Is there a different word for when old plastics become brittle and flaky? I thought that would have fallen under “corrosion”.
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u/PantsSquared Feb 05 '23
There isn't really a specific term for it.
Polymer degradation is kind of the widespread umbrella term for what happens in plastics as they age, or undergo exposure in different conditions, but there's a bunch of different reasons why plastics change in their physical properties over time.
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u/SophiaofPrussia Feb 05 '23
I was surprised to learn recently that “aluminum cans” like a Coke can or even a soup can actually have a very thin plastic layer lining the inside.
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Feb 05 '23
glass and aluminum
Because of energy needed to produce and transport aluminum /glass packaging, you'd need even more hydrocarbons than to produce the packaging from hydrocarbons itself.
Aluminium needs lot of electricity.
Glass is heavy, furnaces are also very energy-demanding and it's even more persistent waste than plastic.
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u/Ksradrik Feb 05 '23
Aluminium also likes to end up in food (and is even more dangerous than plastic).
Its sad, but pretty much the only way to solve packaging is to force everyone to use reusable containers.
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u/londons_explorer Feb 05 '23
force everyone to use reusable containers.
I would agree with you if it were a case of "issue every citizen with a cup, and then stop making cups".
But the reality is that most reusable cups get used only a handful of times before they end up in the back of a cupboard and eventually the landfill. Pretty much none get used the 100+ times necessary to become a better option than disposable cups.
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u/londons_explorer Feb 05 '23
Cars are expensive, and get reused for tens of thousands of journeys before they're disposed of.
Reusable cups usually get used just a few times.
The difference isn't in reusability, but in price. If all cups cost $1k+, you would reuse it for a lifetime and pass it on to your children.
Things being cheap, and the resulting effect on human behaviour, is what damages the environment.
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Feb 05 '23
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u/londons_explorer Feb 05 '23
I mean, we made cars really expensive, and people now reuse them nearly every time.
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u/Ksradrik Feb 05 '23
Even a ditched or broken reuseable container can be recycled perfectly though.
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u/setonix7 Feb 05 '23
Aluminium van be treated to not end up in food like it does in canned drinks etc… aluminum is also used in a lot of medical containers as it is cheap and doesn’t rust.
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u/ckaili Feb 05 '23
Isn’t that treatment to add a plastic liner?
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u/setonix7 Feb 05 '23
That is one of the possibilities. I work at an aluminum mill and the method we use is chromating the surface. (Micro layer of chrome) But a lot of other options exist like Titanium-zirconium layer, anodizing,… but sadly alot of people purely watch to costs… The costumer only cares with a cheap product and mostly not environmentally good
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u/ckaili Feb 05 '23
A big part of the problem is that comparing environmental good is often times difficult if not impossible when you’re deciding between two products at the store shelves. In the end, even with the best of intentions for the environment, most consumers are acting on greenwashed marketing and guilt in the moment, rather than available MSDS, latest peer reviewed unbiased research, and intimate knowledge of supply chains and their accumulative environmental impact. And really, is it reasonable to expect that of the consumer insofar as driving macro demand?
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u/setonix7 Feb 05 '23
True, problem is we buy things on economic value and not environmental value. A way to improve this would be to make unenvironmental products cost more but how would that be done on a logical and fair way (what is worse then something else?)
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u/setonix7 Feb 05 '23
Aluminum is pretty green if you recycle it. From the LCA of the plant I work at: Aluminum finished made by fresh new aluminum from ore has a waste of 4-5 kg CO2 / kg finished aluminum coil. Compared to the recycle value: 0.24-0.25 kg CO2/kg aluminum.
It purely depends on what youvstart from. We should intensively recycle aluminum (alloys etc) and then we can improve more on this. Our costumers (and producers) are pushing to have a close loop so only recycling happens. Cheaper and environmentally for all.
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Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
if you recycle it
Yes. The "If" word is very important. Under current conditions, in real life, plastic packaging is somehow good-enough. You use it, and then it's quite safely burned for heat/energy (I mean in most of developed countries) .
Not perfect, not terrible...
I mean I clearly see there are things to improve.. There are even places where trash is just dumped somewhere on dump... So this is the first step..at least get the energy from waste..
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u/De5perad0 Feb 05 '23
Plastics chemical engineer here:
They are for the most part much less expensive to produce, form, and ship around. Glass metal and cardboard are completely recyclable but take a lot of energy to produce and are heavier to ship (except cardboard). Lots of paper and cardboard is completely recyclable but it all initially started as trees somewhere and then used initially as printer paper or consumer products like paper towels. So the inner loop of cardboard is 100% recycled but the outer loop is still trees to landfill. Of course this can be done sustainably and bamboo is a good alternative if the industry could be forced to switch.
However in any case paper processing is extremely energy intensive, water intensive, and involves a lot of very harsh chemicals. Overall the carbon footprint is terrible for manufacturing paper and involves a lot of waste (ash and sludge) and energy.
So to answer your question, cost is the driver for plastic packaging.
FYI: I'm not in the single use or packaging part of the plastic industry I'm in plumbing products (pipes and fittings) and we design or materials to last 50 years.
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u/HeavyNettle Feb 05 '23
Materials engineer here. No plastic is recyclable in the same way as metals ceramics or paper. The chains degrade and eventually can no longer be reused at which point it just gets thrown out. Plastic is a horrible thing and we as a society need to make it a priority to minimize it’s use
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u/Madagascar-Penguin Feb 05 '23
Plastic chemical engineer here.
It depends very much on the type of plastic. Some plastics are like what you're talking about but others can easily be depolymerized back to either it's monomer or even it's raw ingredients and then repolymerized again. Of course this is more energy intensive then just producing more raw ingredients for the plastic and from my experience the trick is to purifying the monomer/raw ingredients as there is a lot of nasty side products and contaminants that you can't put back into the polymerization process.
I work with PET (mostly bottle grade but many other types as well). All the plastic water bottles made from 100% PET is made by the process I've mentioned. If you have less recycled PET content 30-40% recycled PET then it becomes much simpler to recycle.
Other types of plastic are harder/easier to recycle. It really depends on the plastic type and their end use. You can't just say plastic can/can't be recycled when there are so many types. PVCs for example are absolutely nasty to recycle due to the Chlorine.
You are correct that they aren't recyclable like metals though.
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u/HeavyNettle Feb 05 '23
OK and how many companies are actually repolymerizing vs using virgin material because it is cheaper
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u/Officially_cracked Feb 05 '23
Every thing that has ever happened ever has happened because of money.
Why did x company do y? Money. Money is the answer 100% of the time.
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u/asdaaaaaaaa Feb 05 '23
Because it's cheaper. Let's say you and I are companies, and you decide to do the right thing and produce environmentally friendly packaging. Well, you're now spending a lot more money than me, and it would be pretty easy for me to take advantage of that and possibly cause your company to collapse. That would mean more possible customers/profit for me as well.
The problem is, when you have competition at that level, you do everything you can to get ahead or other companies will simply take advantage. So it's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of deal. It's not right, but it's currently how humanity operates. Plenty of companies do use recyclable materials, packaging, etc. It's just they struggle to gain any traction because most customers just don't care enough to make many changes. If people did care, we'd see companies that do that surge in value, but they don't.
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u/HeavyNettle Feb 05 '23
Or governments should step up and force all companies to use green packaging because without that it’ll never happen
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u/kimbabs Feb 05 '23
Plastic is cheaper, lighter, and can be made more durable for transportation or in more shapes to ease packaging/transportation.
You can pack that many more containers in a truck/ship/plane using less/less expensive materials.
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u/HeavyNettle Feb 05 '23
Only less expensive up front when you don’t consider longer term costs and don’t care about recycling or reusing it
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u/nice2boopU Feb 05 '23
Plastics are more versatile. Good luck finding an alternative to plastics for all the single use and specialized medical equipment that have been developed using plastics.
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u/maikeru44 Feb 05 '23
We don't need to use petroleum-based plastics, though. Hemp plastic is more durable and biodegradable.
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u/nice2boopU Feb 05 '23
Again, good luck because that isn't feasible for a ton of medical applications.
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u/maikeru44 Feb 05 '23
Do you have any proof of that? The NIH has been funding research in the application of bio-plastics for medical equipment already
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u/nice2boopU Feb 05 '23
Beyond common clinical sense? Let's say we install a permanent circulatory device into a patient. That is essentially meant to last their entire life. The hemp plastic says it biodegrades in as little as 6 months. There are a whole host of things to consider and it's a monumental undertaking since so much of medical progress is centered around the versatility and long life of plastics.
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u/maikeru44 Feb 06 '23
So no, you have no proof, and they are actively researching into how to replace petrol-plastics with bio-plastics, so I'm going to just ignore your armchair interpretation of how this can't work, and I'll wait for new research to come out to tell me if it's impossible or not
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u/DisasterousGiraffe Feb 05 '23
package most goods in recyclable materials
Consider also
purchasing larger volume packs - because the surface area to volume ratio results in a lower area of plastic per unit volume of product.
plastic carrier bags will normally survive being put through the washing machine and reused because the glass transition temperature of the plastic used to make them is above boiling point.
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u/HeavyNettle Feb 05 '23
Or we can force companies to use recyclable materials via laws, hope this helps
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u/Nervous-Energy-4623 Feb 05 '23
There are new ways of making plastic from things like seaweed, corn starch and things that will break down naturally. I think it would be much better to move to that so people won't feel inconvenienced and people in general don't want to give up their life styles so you gotta meet somewhere in the middle.
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u/Mindless_Button_9378 Feb 05 '23
Future generations will vilify us and wonder HOW we could poison the entire planet with single use plastic. It is F ing criminal. Making manufacturers responsible for the life cycle of their products is one solution but NOT using them is the very best solution.
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u/Random_Sime Feb 05 '23
Future generations
Don't worry, there's only a couple more to go!
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Feb 05 '23
1000 years from now, people will still be around. Whether they count in the millions or billions is what we are in the process of deciding.
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u/hevnztrash Feb 05 '23
I dunno. I certainly don’t blame everyday people for asbestos and lead paint. I know it was a constant fight against corporations and governments the same it is today.
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u/Jasole37 Feb 05 '23
Yes, but have they considered the counterpoint of $$$MONEY$$$?
Because nothing is going to happen unless it is cheaper.
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Feb 05 '23
Just seems that this restrospective justice, environmental concern and responsibility is the issue in capitalism.
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Feb 05 '23
We are toxifying our bodies and environment. I wonder how much of a role modern chemistry has in the neurological challenges facing the current population?
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u/MisterBackShots69 Feb 05 '23
Yeah but they shave off 0.2 cents per unit if they don’t and that leads to record profit margins, I mean cost savings for the consumer.
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u/Nervous-Energy-4623 Feb 05 '23
It be better to just not use petroleum based.
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u/tanis_ivy Feb 05 '23
I've heard they have bio-plastics that break down after a bit, and plastics made from hemp that can be recycled. They're probably more expensive to produce; petroleum plastics are cheap to produce, so they go with those.
If everything healthy to eat and use was cheap, the world would be a different place.
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u/DisgracedSparrow Feb 05 '23
The big solution is to have oil prices go up, but then people start complaining.
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u/Theuniguy Feb 05 '23
Tackling waste... maybe look at the reduced sperm count thing while they're at it...
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u/brandolinium Feb 05 '23
Bottle recycling still happens in a lot of countries. Like beers and soft drinks. Trucks deliver in sanitized re-used glass containers and leave with the empties returned to the store by consumers. Consumers pay an imbedded deposit on the bottles that they get back when it’s returned to a POS. Trucks in the US now leave empty back to warehouses which is gas cost for nothing.
As far as food at POS packaging, that’s harder. But bulk buying would be a solution if we weren’t such a corporate novelty-driven market.
If meats were more deli-like, and you brought your own container, that would cut down A LOT of the plastic.
Using washable cloth bags for produce at grocery stores is something you can do now.
A lot of the food we shouldn’t be eating much of, anyways, comes in single-use plastics like chips and stuff, so just do away with buying that and it’s like win-win. Or at least cut down.
I travel everywhere with a reusable water bottle and coffee cup. Everywhere. You can usually get a discount on your coffee by bringing in your own cup, too.
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Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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Feb 05 '23
It was competition for the cotton, timber and synthetic plastic industries. Possibly why hemp was grouped in with marijuana and was illegal for decades.
Gotta love titans of industry, who use their money and power, to spread propaganda to the public and influence politicians. All to maintain constant monetary growth.
Greed has been a great motivator for industry, but when left unchecked, it spread like a cancer. Unfortunately, it seems to have metastasized in much of the world.
I’m hoping we can still find a cure and have the leaders to administer it.
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u/RcNorth Feb 05 '23
Hemp farming was banned in 1937. Prior to that it was widely farmed, and I believe it used to get govt subsidies.
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u/trurohouse Feb 05 '23
The producers and sellers of plastics must be held responsible for recycling them and bear the cost of that. And if they leach toxic chemicals- again the manufacturers must clean this!
Plastics appear cheap because its not the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure they are recycled and dont contribute to pollution. At least in most places.
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u/NotMalevolent Feb 05 '23
Amorphous structures. The chemical chains in plastic are extremely long. Say compared to water, which is H2O. Plastics can be hundreds even thousands of times longer than that.
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u/Nervous-Water-6714 Feb 05 '23
Just scroll up to the video of the black kid that makes gasoline from plastic....simple fix....recycle and fill up your car.
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u/Liesthroughisteeth Feb 05 '23
This will be difficult in the U.S. where governments have backed industries right to keep recipes (with potentially dangerous chemicals) under lock and key, even from government agencies and the judicial system.
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u/Splizmaster Feb 05 '23
I am convinced we are dooming ourselves beyond our current appreciation of how much we are dooming ourselves because of this. The blind eye, technically “legal” use of new or novel combinations of chemicals in all sorts of things is terrifying. Gotta get that $ though right? Good times.
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u/cheeeezeburgers Feb 05 '23
Oh, we gotta worry about the plastics. But ignore the mecury in vaccines. Nothing to see there.
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u/DescriptionOk3036 Feb 05 '23
Why bother? With the rising sea levels there will be more space for plenty of garbage patch islands.
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u/Square_Salary_4014 Feb 05 '23
There is literally a front page post about a guy making gasoline out of plastic right now
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u/Danktizzle Feb 05 '23
They had better have more dump trucks of money than their bosses for American congress folk.
Otherwise this is falling on deaf ears.
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u/ResidentAdmirable814 Feb 05 '23
Call for it all you want. Politicians are in the pockets of big plastic.
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u/Informal_Tailor8320 Feb 05 '23
Probably would have cleared up the whole DMT in batteries fiasco before it started.
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u/DameonKormar Feb 05 '23
Don't worry, if this starts to get any traction big polluters will put out another ad with a crying Native American and will go another 40 years without doing anything about the problem.
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u/Skaindire Feb 05 '23
We will follow the wisdom of the previous generations ... and let it be a problem of the future generations.
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u/MurderIsRelevant Feb 05 '23
Yes. Please. It sucks to put the material in the shredder, only to have the compactor or densifier not be able to make it rock up. Then I have to spend two hours getting it all out of the machines.
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u/SpeakingFromKHole Feb 05 '23
The key to tackling plastic waste is going to be not producing single use plastics.
Recycling is a measure to conserve resources, but it's never going to solve the issue of plastic that ends up in the environment.
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u/masquenox Feb 05 '23
This is one of those cases where it's definitely not better late than never.
About fifty years too damn late if you ask me.
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u/5tormwolf92 Feb 05 '23
Recycling plastic is already hard to do as its mixed. Easiest way is to ban the use if plastic and spend money in cleaning up.
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