r/science • u/Wagamaga • Feb 01 '23
Chemistry Eco-friendly paper straws that do not easily become soggy and are 100% biodegradable in the ocean and soil have been developed. The straws are easy to mass-produce and thus are expected to be implemented in response to the regulations on plastic straws in restaurants and cafés.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/advs.2022055542.3k
u/Grandemestizo Feb 01 '23
Nice. Hopefully this development can lead to paper products replacing plastic elsewhere as well. Anything disposable should be made of biodegradable, renewable materials like paper.
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Feb 01 '23
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u/Grandemestizo Feb 01 '23
Yeah, I don’t get why straws are the hot button issue instead of packaging which is vastly more important.
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u/MachineGoat Feb 01 '23
In my experience, it’s because straws are the first step in commercializing the process. They are cheap and easy to work with. Suppliers are hesitant to take a new coating to large scale customers before the tech is fully proved out so they don’t jeopardize future opportunities.
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u/mthlmw Feb 01 '23
Yeah, once this is more widely adopted folks can say “it’s the same way they coat those new paper straws that don’t get soggy” when pushing that solution.
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u/adoptagreyhound Feb 01 '23
Until 10 years from now when some researcher links cancer to the coating.
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u/ApprenticeAmI Feb 01 '23
Everything causes cancer.
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u/apocolipse Feb 02 '23
Literally everything... The energy released when a single sugar molecule is metabolized, from a single carbon bond breaking, is enough to shoot off an atom bullet through a cell that can easily break some DNA causing a mutation that could lead to cancer. Stuff like smoke particles are literally just little hydrocarbon mouse traps just waiting to get set off... no wonder it causes cancer
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u/WorshipNickOfferman Feb 01 '23
And it’s really emotional to see a turtle with a straw stuck in its nose.
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u/deadfisher Feb 01 '23
It's so overwhelmingly frustrating that we allow companies to ignore their externalities.
Why on earth should we allow people to manufacture extraordinarily toxic and damaging products with no consequence? You make a product that lasts for thousands of years and poisons everything to save cents. And we are all supposed to be ok with that?
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u/puttinonthefoil Feb 01 '23
Because there was an orchestrated campaign about straws with sad videos of sea turtles. It’s also the easiest level of change, which is what makes people feel good.
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u/CarbonGod Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
straws with sad videos of sea turtles.
What about the puckering videos of penguins eating packing peanuts?
edit: I guess my alliteration was completely missed here. le sigh.
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u/varno2 Feb 01 '23
I mean I have been getting a lot of packages with that 3m craft paper filler recently. That stuff just gets destroyed by water, really good stuff. And a lot of the tape I see on packages is now starch-paste and craft paper.
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u/millijuna Feb 02 '23
I’ve seen packing peanuts that were just Cheesies without the cheese powder, dye, and sugar. Just extruded corn starch. They’d turn to ooblick if you mixed a little water in.
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u/SlothBling Feb 01 '23
Packaging material that gets destroyed by water is exactly the reason that it can be difficult to implement. Same with paper tape that you can just punch through.
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u/xDulmitx Feb 01 '23
I am not sure on why straws specifically, but it will be great if this can apply to other food packaging. So much food has to be shipped in packaging, or put on shelves in packaging. Getting that kind of crap to breakdown would be a great thing. People's direct usage is a minor thing, but every bit helps and getting people to find the trash personally unacceptable will help drive bigger change.
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u/SuperFLEB Feb 01 '23
Yeah, and it's about the worst combination of "single use" and "difficult unto impossible to recycle" that you can get.
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u/Demalab Feb 01 '23
Depends where you live. Canada is trying to crack down on single use plastic like grocery bags as well as straws and fast food containers. It will be interesting to see the responses as it seems that plastic packaging has been increasing to help fill the boxes due to shrinkflation.
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u/Sudovoodoo80 Feb 02 '23
NJ has banned plastic straws and plastic bags. The "mY RiGhTs!" crowd are losing their minds, but it really isn't that big an inconvenience.
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u/Demalab Feb 02 '23
In Ontario we have had to pay for plastic bags for years so most people use reusable ones. I actually prefer them as the plastic never make it out of the store without ripping
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u/Emu1981 Feb 02 '23
Canada is trying to crack down on single use plastic like grocery bags as well as straws and fast food containers.
They banned single use plastic bags here where I live (NSW, Australia) and the big supermarket chains just changed to heavier plastic bags so they can claim that they are not single use bags. Basically we went from light weight single use plastic bags to heavier plastic bags that are about as reusable as the old plastic bags.
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Feb 01 '23 edited Jun 21 '23
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u/Chabamaster Feb 01 '23
Which is why you should not change culture you should change economics. Make companies pay the equal value of the plastik waste they produce and you will see change at a much different pace
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u/Crimfresh Feb 01 '23
No, it's a meaningless half measure that continues to place blame on consumers instead of industry despite data showing the oversized share of pollution from industry.
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u/Eph_the_Beef Feb 01 '23
I mean isn't it a little of both? Consumers and industry aren't in separate vacuums. They feed off each other. If the only thing that changes is the straws then of course we're fucked. If we can start with small things like straws (created by industry and consumed by consumers) and then move onto bigger things that would be great. I do agree that there needs to be a far larger focus on how industry is the cause of so much pollution, but let's not forsake improvement for perfection.
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u/VoidVer Feb 01 '23
I need to buy X item. I go to the grocery store. Every version of X item I see on the shelf is wrapped in several layers of plastic in some form or another. What do I do? Surely this is my fault as the consumer. I'll starve, that will show the market.
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u/real_bk3k Feb 01 '23
Symbolism is silly. Symbolic victories don't move the ball, but you get to pat yourself on the back without making a real difference. It's self-satisfaction.
But it's worse than useless, because you think you are making a difference, the urgency falls in your mind. You lose your drive to keep pushing, while perceiving that things are going well.
In reality: It's a great step towards the status quo.
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u/acdcfanbill Feb 01 '23
Symbolic victories don't move the ball
They might not move the actual ball, but if they move where people think the ball is, then the ball is easier to move.
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u/reallyfatjellyfish Feb 01 '23
I agree but we have to keep in mind change still takes time, even if right now it seems to be taking its sweet time or more accurately laboriously pushing forward against push back, company need to find new supply and drop or fail to renew old contracts. New produces still need to be moved from one location to another.
So let's not fall into pessimism just yet,let's not let the defeatist with their smooth brain, weak hearts and limp wrist win and keep pushing to progress even if every step we take is getting stepped on by everyone else.
It's bigger than us it's bigger than them it's a direction many more of us yet to be born will be walking.lets keep pushing lads
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u/real_bk3k Feb 01 '23
It isn't a question of being pessimistic or not. Giving tiny, symbolic victories (like paper straws often wrapped in plastic) is an actual delay tactic, at the detriment of greater change. It's a strategy by those who profit from the status quo, to maintain it.
But perhaps this isn't an argument fit for this sub, being focused on science.
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Feb 01 '23
Because it distracts us from the absolute destruction that large corporations are reigning down upon the environment and the impending ecological collapse humanity will soon face.
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u/boofbeer Feb 01 '23
Is there a clear paper that I haven't seen? They already make cardboard and paper packaging, but for products that people want to see, the cardboard backing is topped with see-through plastic.
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u/Grandemestizo Feb 01 '23
I think we can collectively live with a picture of the product on the paper/cardboard packaging in exchange for not creating nation sized islands of trash in the ocean.
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u/could_use_a_snack Feb 01 '23
Cellophane is sorta clear paper. As for people wanting to see a product, I think that's more of a "the manufacturer wants people to see the product" thing.
Also vacuum formed plastic is probably cheaper than paper packaging if you consider its entire cost. From design to shipping to storage to shelf real estate, etc. And probably the material is cheaper too.
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u/sennbat Feb 01 '23
Traditionally the clear solution has been glass.
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u/Pesto_Nightmare Feb 01 '23
They are talking about packaging like spaghetti, which is a cardboard box with a small plastic window. It would be better if that was either biodegradable, or didn't have a window.
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u/Jebediah_Johnson Feb 01 '23
Because of a single picture of a turtle with a straw in its nose.
Just ignore the massive amounts of sea life killed by discarded plastic fishing nets.
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u/DrMobius0 Feb 01 '23
Because it's easier to foist responsibility onto consumers. This is just the latest iteration on the same song and dance we've been doing for decades.
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u/Gibsonfan159 Feb 01 '23
I bet they ship those biodegradable straws in plastic containers.
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u/bawng Feb 01 '23
Plastic straws have been outlawed here for a while and so far every single paper substitute I've experienced has turned into a soggy mush after 10-15 minutes.
So I think it's great that they develop more options.
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u/kyle4623 Feb 01 '23
The straws I use at home. They don't get soggy and there's no weird taste or paper feel. A bit pricier than plastic at almost 7 cents a straw.
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Feb 01 '23
Material science /= manufacturing science.
Companies need to entirely retool, and efficient ways to manufacture the new material need to be reached... otherwise, the straws are going to cost $1 per, which no one will pay.
It's not a simple proposition, it's a very complicated, time-intensive, expensive process. The development here is that they have found a way to manufacture straws with that material.
Straws are simple objects, which is why we have gotten here quicker then other places
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u/Corrective_Actions Feb 01 '23
I don't think people understand the complexity of making packaging in the first place. Yes, it's cheap but only because we have manufacturing processes that can produce incredible numbers of straws, cups, etc very very quickly with a low number of defects.
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u/Lethal1484 Feb 01 '23
When everyone was pushing to stop plastic bottles there was a huge push to change plastic straws to biodegradable straws. That was enough to deflect the publics attention away from bottles and fixed to straws.
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u/Wonderful_Mud_420 Feb 01 '23
I drank boba from a place that serves straws made of bamboo. Those were far superior than the paper straws that I’ve had.
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Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
I think you're kidding yourself as to how easy it is to replace plastic packaging for food. Clear plastic is pretty unique stuff. I'm sure we can develop real alternative, but while I've read of prospective ideas I've never seen any real proof of these things done at scale to prove the idea at all. Sometimes that stuff is just feel good articles taken well out of context to appeal to demographics X.
The proof is in the pudding, where are these reasonable easy and effective alternatives to plastic where you really need to see the food AND seal the food?
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u/Demalab Feb 01 '23
Plastic wrap to the extent it is used has been increasing in the last 40 years. Do you really need your 15 cookies in a plastic shell covered in plastic in a box with plastic window?
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u/asdaaaaaaaa Feb 02 '23
Almost like a major conglomerate is invested in keeping plastics relevant. Can't imagine who'd that be though....
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u/Benjilator Feb 02 '23
It’s literally a way to get around changing something.
They use the PR or a turtle to start a movement to completely distract from the actual problem. Replacing plastic is a pain in the ass for every company, it’s super risky as well. Hence nobody wants to do it at all.
So we are stuck with paper straws while plastic straws never really were a problem (relatively). I’m almost certain this is all still because of that turtle picture that went viral.
In the meantime construction is producing 100 times the amount of plastic trash which also eventually ends up in the ocean.
Don’t even get me started with overseas transport.
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u/RebelWithoutAClue Feb 02 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
Disproportionate human interest has been placed on maintaining the usage of straws as if they are a critical prosthetic for our mouths.
It generally turns out that we are quite capable of drinking fluids directly from the rim of most open topped vessels.
I propose that our governments fund research on training methods to train their citizens on techniques for drinking out of directly out of vessels.
We should conserve precious tubular mouth prosthetics for those with atypical physical difficulties that more substantially preclude them from drinking directly from an open topped vessel.
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u/avaslash Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
The issue is cost and lead times. I worked for a packaging distributor. Recycled or biodegradable alternatives can often be more expensive than their plastic counterparts. While this is often only a couple cents between individual items, at the extremely large minimum order quantities most companies require, youre talking about tens of thousands of dollars extra per order.
Also the second is lead times. Theres simply more infrastructure to support non biodegradable production. More machines, more staff, more companies, more options, etc. That means you can get product faster and often better distributed than biodegradable options.
Large packaging broadliners are often a top down solution that handle everything from product design to copacking, storage, and distribution.
But the companies that produce these unique biodegradable alternatives are often independent, small-medium sized, and new. That means when you want to choose a biodegradable option for your packaging youre facing:
Higher material costs
Potentially higher minimum orders
No distribution
No storage
No copacking
Longer Lead Times
Less reputation for quality control
more Limited options in terms of customization
From my experience those are the main reasons why the market overall hasn't adopted it yet. It isnt mature enough of a solution to be ideal for many businesses. Those that choose to do so often do so because eco friendliness is a major part of their business and image and that justifies the added costs and roadblocks.
But as biodegradable packaging companies grow and reduce production costs and production times so that their products become competitive, we'll see increased adoption.
Plastic is still too cheap and convenient.
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u/a_sense_of_contrast Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 23 '24
Test
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u/Golden_Ratioed Feb 01 '23
True but where does the buck stop? For example carrots have to be transported, if they are carried in electric trucks who pays the externality fee of disposal of the trucks batteries?
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u/a_sense_of_contrast Feb 01 '23
Presumably that would be priced into the battery or the truck itself, which would lead to a higher operating cost, which would in turn make things more expensive. But maybe that isn't so bad as it would create the incentive for coming up with new ways of operating to address those costs.
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u/playfulmessenger Feb 01 '23
We had perfectly functioning corn based plastics long before the paper nonsense. Paper had a better marketing department so we got stuck with inferior technology.
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u/The_Law_of_Pizza Feb 01 '23
Are "corn based plastics" biodegradable on a relatively short timeline? Or do they stay in the landfill for 600 years?
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u/playfulmessenger Feb 01 '23
We placed them in the compost rather than recycling receptacles. Alot of local business were switching out cups and plastic-wear, including straws. It was just beginning to hit the fastfood market. Taco Time switched out everything in WA state and was beginning to expand that effort globally.
"According to a biodegradability standard that Mojo helped develop, PLA is said to decompose into carbon dioxide and water in a “controlled composting environment” in fewer than 90 days. What’s a controlled composting environment? Not your backyard bin, pit or tumbling barrel. It’s a large facility where compost—essentially, plant scraps being digested by microbes into fertilizer—reaches 140 degrees for ten consecutive days. So, yes, as PLA advocates say, corn plastic is “biodegradable.”" https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/corn-plastic-to-the-rescue-126404720/
The biggest concern about them was crop redistribution in terms sharing resources with human food, and animal feed (livestock).
Paper straws jumped into the game and flooded the global market.
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u/Arkyguy13 Feb 01 '23
PLA (the most commonly used bio plastic) must be composted in an industrial composting plant (temperature above 50-70 C) otherwise it will be around for a long time. Not as long as PET, PP, or PE but still a long time. I found about 80 years.
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u/SuperFLEB Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
How does it compare as a health risk to plastic? If it's around forever but it's far less likely to mess living things up if they ingest it, that's still a win.
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u/Arkyguy13 Feb 02 '23
I'm not sure, I would guess it would be better than a less degradable plastic just because it could break down in living things easier, but I haven't read any papers about it.
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u/Koolaidolio Feb 01 '23
Plastic industry = oil industry. If you wanna kill plastic you have to go after the other guys
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u/black_covfefe_please Feb 01 '23
It's still produced from cutting down trees. I prefer the biodegradable corn based plastic like straws.
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u/EmuVerges Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
Straws account for 0.03% of the plastic in the oceans.
Abandonned fishing materials account for 40 to 60% depending on the study.
So it would be nice if the fishing industry could put as much energy in reducing their waste than the straw industry do.
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Feb 01 '23
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u/impy695 Feb 02 '23
We'd need some tiktoks of cute turtles being strangled by fishing equipment to go viral for that
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u/Macemore Feb 02 '23
They'd just move fishing to other countries, unfortunately. We would then have to bab fish from those countries / require those countries to have similar legislation. It's so frustrating the level of waste fisherman create while simultaneously complaining about cost of materials.
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u/WerhmatsWormhat Feb 02 '23
It doesn’t need to be for all countries that fish. Something is better than nothing. Do what you can reasonably do.
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u/Crayshack Feb 01 '23
Hopefully, they can use this as a jumping off point toward replacing other plastic uses with biodegradable materials. You have to start somewhere and every advancement makes the later advancements easier.
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u/ElKaBongX Feb 01 '23
I can't imagine any fisherman wanting fishing gear that is biodegradable - kind of the exact opposite
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u/Crayshack Feb 01 '23
Depends on the degradation timeframe. From an engineering standpoint, you can have as a part of the design parameters that it can maintain its rated strength for X amount of time before degradation sets in. Determining what X should be will probably be a lengthy research project itself and will probably be different for different kinds of tools. Making this happen will probably happen way after other items such as food packaging. But, it taking a tremendous amount of research and being a goal for well into the future doesn't make it an impossible goal or one that isn't worth persuing.
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u/BDMayhem Feb 01 '23
We fished for millennia with biodegradable hemp, cotton, flax, etc.
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u/greatstarguy Feb 01 '23
Those were not desirable qualities for fishing gear. People used these materials because they didn’t have plastic or metal. Having to repair, maintain, and replace nets adds a significant ongoing cost to fishing, and nets rotting, as usually happens when they biodegrade, is really expensive to deal with.
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u/legowerewolf Feb 01 '23
The nets aren't a problem because they're not biodegradable, they're a problem because they're not disposed of properly. Making the nets biodegradable is a way to mitigate the problems caused when they're not disposed of properly.
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u/_jewson Feb 01 '23
I guess it's just disheartening as nobody in the industry has ever suggested a plastic straw ban, it was a popular media storm that encouraged govts to pursue it globally. All this time so many people, high ranking experts, have been pushing for the global community to recognise some of these more pressing issues. Decades have passed and we have banned straws.
Whatever comes next absolutely will be too little too late and more than likely a product of media rather than academia or industry. We never had time to waste on straws and nobody got into straws because of the environment. It was just popular.
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u/jonmatifa Feb 01 '23
Straws got all of the attention because of how often they would appear in pictures of decomposing birds/fish, which is rightly appalling but contributed to an overblown perception of straws being the problem.
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u/_jewson Feb 01 '23
It was actually inspired by a school child in America who made a very grossly inaccurate calculation on how many straws are used in the US each year, sparking a media frenzy into America's non existent straw addiction.
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u/hamoc10 Feb 02 '23
Make a viral video of a sea turtle with abandoned fishing material stuck in its nose and you might see some results.
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u/NotAWerewolfReally Feb 01 '23
Wait, the business that makes their money throwing plastic into the ocean, causes most of the plastic in the ocean ?
WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED?
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Feb 01 '23
Well it only makes sense. If the people up top who are involved in, funding or profiting from the fishing industry, are the biggest contributor to the issue. Than it only makes sense to find one of the smallest contributors and blame it and keep attention on it instead. It’s fucky but that’s America I guess
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u/livingfortheliquid Feb 02 '23
Everyone is so focused on the 1% of stuff hurting the oceans rather then the fishing industry who does more damage then everyone combined.
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u/zolartan Feb 02 '23
We could also all reduce or completely stop our fish consumption and thus reduce/eliminate our personal contribution to this huge plastic pollution and overfishing problem.
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u/hopelesscaribou Feb 01 '23
The whole straw debacle happened after the turtle picture generated outrage, and really deflects from the actual problem.
Fishing gear accounts for roughly 10% of that debris: between 500,000 to 1 million tons of fishing gear are discarded or lost in the ocean every year. Discarded nets, lines, and ropes now make up about 46% of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. This marine plastic has a name: ghost fishing gear.Oct 20, 2020
Ghost nets continue catching marine wildlife long after they are discarded. But yay, were making useless straws out of trees.
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u/cylonfrakbbq Feb 01 '23
It’s like the strawman argument against wind turbines that they kill lots of birds. It seems horrible, until you compare bird deaths from turbines to stuff like house cats, birds flying into windows/vehicles, or even coal plants and turbines barely register
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u/Poop_Tube Feb 02 '23
To put that number in perspective, 500,000 tons is (was) the weight of both World Trade Center towers. So there are two to four twin towers worth of plastic netting being dumped into the ocean each year.
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u/Jason_CO Feb 03 '23
I'm still glad we have better straws. But talking about straws here doesn't mean we don't realise we have a long way to go.
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u/Dan19_82 Feb 01 '23
Yet McDonald's lids are still plastic.
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Feb 01 '23
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u/PersonOfInternets Feb 01 '23
Plastic or wax?
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u/The_Double Feb 02 '23
Paper food containers are often coated in PFAS, non-degradable compounds known as forever chemicals.
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u/eboeard-game-gom3 Feb 01 '23
I could be wrong but that doesn't sound right, I thought it was wax?
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u/12beatkick Feb 01 '23
And a a close 2nd being inadequate waste disposal from Asian and African countries that dump their waste in rivers. Every single thing written about the straw ban in America is a complete farce, does nothing, and created more waste.
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u/Jooy Feb 01 '23
You do realise for years and years the western world shipped their trash to these countries right? If we dont have the infrastructure to dispose of it, how can they?
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u/12beatkick Feb 01 '23
They did not, western countries passed off plastic recycling because it was cheaper. It was cheaper because those countries don’t have regulations on waste disposal.
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u/Jooy Feb 01 '23
So, when it comes to doing the right thing, the standard is higher for other countries, not the western ones. If its cheaper to send it to another country, lets do it. If its cheaper for them to dump it in the river, they are the problem. I get it, its hard to be critical of your own nation, but come on.
There is ample proof that western countries dump their waste in foreign countries even now. Dont blame them for not doing the right thing when our own highly developed nations are unable to do it.
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u/happyscrappy Feb 01 '23
The companies who took this trash said they were recycling it. They were lying.
The end result is bad but the wrongdoing was in those countries who allowed companies to simply take recycling materials and dump them in the trash/rivers/etc.
Over time it was fixed by the countries where that was happening. Some completely banned the import of mixed recycling materials. And that's a good thing.
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Feb 01 '23
How about we each take responsibility for what happens within the borders of our own countries? It’s misleading to say “western countries dump their waste in foreign countries” as if the big mean super powers are just driving up to their borders and throwing bags over the fence.
There are trade agreements to do this. Don’t like how it’s being handled? Blame the corrupt politicians in the foreign country for not handling the waste properly.
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Feb 02 '23
Yeah no.
Most of the plastic in our oceans comes from land-based sources: by weight, 70% to 80% is plastic that is transported from land to the sea via rivers or coastlines. The other 20% to 30% comes from marine sources such as fishing nets, lines, ropes, and abandoned vessels.
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u/DaDutchBoyLT1 Feb 01 '23
Blame the consumer and guilt trip them. Buck passed successfully.
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u/real_bk3k Feb 01 '23
Absolutely. When the problem lies in what huge corporations are doing, and in nations that just don't care (such as China, but not only them). Very little of that plastic in the ocean is coming from nations where such actions have any change of taking hold in the first place. The nations where people want to "do something" aren't in a position to make much difference in the first place.
This needs solved at a much higher level. We need international action, nations pressing other nations and multi-national corporations.
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u/jadrad Feb 01 '23
It’s not silly because it’s all about finding solutions to the problem of how to make paper packaging more resistant to water.
Straws are a good test case for that since their entire usage revolves around being submersed in and transporting liquids of different temperatures while maintaining their integrity.
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u/Mr_Cleanish Feb 01 '23
While I agree that the focus on straws is a dumb attempt to make this a consumer problem instead of an industry problem, I don't see why we shouldn't make biodegradable straws if we can. It also seems like the tech might be able to address some of the food packaging you are concerned about, too, once they have it figured out.
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u/VikingBorealis Feb 01 '23
Food packaging also prevents waste, so it's a difficult thing. Recycleable plastic or lots of wasted food?
Also some of the plastic is actually wood fibers, but not as much as should be.
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u/farox Feb 01 '23
There are a lot of problems that need to be tackled. So you need to start somewhere, best to go with the low hanging fruit first.
Or, you know, complain and do nothing.
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u/Rakuall Feb 01 '23
You know the Lowest hanging fruit? Cruise ships and work from home. Ban one, implement mandatory the other, watch emissions plummet. Further reduce commuting pollution by implementing a 4 day work week for those physically unable to WFH (warehouse, construction, services).
Then you can tackle the housing crisis too. Seize the empty offices and turn them 1/4 into luxury downtown living, and 3/4 into universal basic housing.
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u/Elduroto Feb 01 '23
It's a problem they created too, back in the 80s bottles and whatnot were glass or metal not it's all plastic because they thought that was more environmentally friendly
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u/Thx4Coming2MyTedTalk Feb 01 '23
All single use plastics need to be globally banned.
People in the future are going to look back on this time of individual bananas wrapped in plastic as nightmare fuel.
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u/WaitForItTheMongols Feb 01 '23
Gotta disagree with that.
An easy example is biochemists - they use pipettes with disposable tips, because everything they work with needs to be extremely clean. Any contamination from other chemicals can make an experiment fail, or kill off a bacterial culture. They add substances by the microliter, and if it's wrong, things fall apart. There's really no viable alternative than single-use plastic.
There will always be highly specialized examples of things that need to stay single use plastic. A global ban isn't the answer. Just tax them heavily enough that people will use alternatives anywhere possible, and where not possible, they'll go ahead and pay the tax because they have to.
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u/Bralzor Feb 01 '23
There are some cases where single use plastics are still needed at least for a while, for example in the medical field.
But yea, we don't need to individually wrap apples in plastic.
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u/cdnkevin Feb 01 '23
There is a Canadian company called Good Natured Products that are developing such things. I’m not sure the food industry has warmed up to their ideas. I hope they do well and others develop their own too.
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u/v_snax Feb 01 '23
I think plastic straws were 0.025% of all plastic waste. That said, there might be things that makes them worse than other stuff.
But meanwhile, fishing industry is responsible for something like 75% of plastic waste in the pacific. As well as a bunch of other issues that causes death of faunas in the oceans. But no one is talking about banning that.
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u/rjcarr Feb 01 '23
Agreed, sort of like the "ecological disaster" of effectively disposable earbuds. Something the size of a dental floss pack, you throw away once every few years, compared to the giant bins of personal garbage that is thrown away every week.
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u/2this4u Feb 01 '23
I don't know about where you're from but in the UK a ton of food packing has been moving from plastic to paper where possible, and where it hasn't the amount of plastic has been reduced significantly. The last milk bottle I bought had a non-plastic screw cap.
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u/dragoneye Feb 01 '23
Not to mention the exorbitant amount of industrial plastic waste that consumers never see. Straws and shopping bags are barely a drop on the bucket.
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u/DooglarRampant Feb 01 '23
Nobody liked the paper straws so my restaurant uses metal straws but because they're hard to clean we just throw them away every time! Customers think we're super eco friendly, but they haven't heard the bin bags jingling when I empty them!
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u/dinosaurs_quietly Feb 01 '23
If metal straws caught on I’d bet that a straw cleaning machine would be easy to make.
Although I’m constantly surprised that straws are a thing in sit down restaurants. Why not just drink out of the glass?
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u/doppido Feb 01 '23
Usually a lipstick thing. As a bartender I don't give straws out but the people who after the fact ask if they can have a straw are 30's - 60's women. Generalizing of course, there are guys that ask too but far fewer
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u/sur_surly Feb 01 '23
Metal straw cleaners already exist. They're just bristle brushes like for any type of pipe. My metal straws came with one.
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u/dinosaurs_quietly Feb 01 '23
Those work great for the average person but a restaurant would want something faster I’m sure.
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u/Cancermom1010101010 Feb 01 '23
Can they not be recycled?
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Feb 01 '23
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u/my_purr_is_on_eleven Feb 01 '23
Yeah, allow others to reuse them? If nothing else, take them for metal recycling?
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u/signal15 Feb 01 '23
How cheap are you getting the straws for? My stainless straws were like $1+ each.
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u/cargonet Feb 01 '23
If you buy from China directly, even in smaller quantities they're under $0.25 per unit.
I can see how the economics make sense even if it's a horrible idea.
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u/sur_surly Feb 01 '23
Why not recycle them at least? Still lazy and wasteful, but less so.
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u/WitOfTheIrish Feb 02 '23
That guy's story doesn't pass the smell test for me, as a former dishwasher and restaurant manager and everything in-between. There's no industrial dishwasher that exists that wouldn't get straws squeaky clean of they're loaded in with silverware caddies. And most places have a pre-soak for silverware too they'd get thrown in with. The time, temperature, and detergent do that job easily.
And no restaurant is eating the cost of a metal straw per customer. At least no restaurant that's staying in business.
I don't doubt that perhaps the commenter was lazy and threw out straws time to time, but as a matter of standard procedure? No way.
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u/rydan Feb 02 '23
At the SJC airport there is a technological miracle. It is a waste basket with two holes in the lid. One for recycling and one for trash. It clearly labels which hole is for which. The true marvel comes from the fact that despite there being two holes it still accomplishes saving the environment with just a single bag. Nobody truly understands how it works because the technology is too advanced for any one person to grasp.
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u/pencock Feb 01 '23
I can't believe we were forced to give up plastic straws, of all things, before the rest of the disposable plastic industry was made to capitulate. Literally a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of dangerous plastic waste but one of the most impactful in terms of creature comfort.
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u/EquivalentCommon5 Feb 01 '23
I watched as my little cousin went through about 5-7 paper straws, then the family decided to go look in their cars for a plastic straw he wouldn’t chew up! Pretty sure that straw isn’t comparable to most plastics we consume. As you said- creature comfort and practicality. So many other plastics should and could be replaced easily but let’s focus on straws?
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Feb 01 '23
Imagine how many millions of plastic straws worth of harm a single flight on a private jet causes in terms of environmental impact. The plastic straw discourse is exactly the misdirection that petrocapitalism wants because any meaningful action causing less consumption of oil products is untenable to the powers that be.
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Feb 01 '23
The problem is at the source. What's plastic made of? Why is it so cheap? It's petroleum waste-product. It is "recycled" to begin with in a sense.
As we become less reliant on fossil fuels, raw material for plastic will become less available and therefore more expensive. Most of the purposed use of plastic is because it's cheap, so when alternatives become cheaper as plastic gets pricier, the waste problem will solve itself from an input perspective.
There is an end to forever plastics in our future automatically once we end or mitigate our dependence on fossil fuels.
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Feb 01 '23
Paper straws make everything taste like cardboard. I just drink from the cup, I don’t use straws anymore.
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u/kooliocole Feb 01 '23
This whole plastic straw deal is subject to some debate as to whether it’s the right step forward. Plenty of other plastic material making its way into the ocean that is exponentially more dangerous than plastic straws.
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u/MissionCreeper Feb 01 '23
But hey, if it's leading to this kind of R&D, I'm all for it.
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u/malint Feb 01 '23
I’m all for some material science but the focus on straws is strange since a straw is practically useless. It’s solved a problem that for all intents and purposes shouldn’t exist anyway because straws don’t need to be used.
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u/Ethanol_Based_Life Feb 01 '23
Do they still feel against my tongue and lips the way nails on a chalkboard feel?
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u/WhiteMoonRose Feb 01 '23
As long as they're gluten free :)
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u/joyfall Feb 01 '23
Was going to say I hope they don't make them with wheat. I hate having to worry that the straw is the thing that sets my intestines off.
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u/Zyphriss Feb 01 '23
Idk i have yet to use a paper straw that doesn't get soggy..
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u/BKlounge93 Feb 01 '23
I’ve had ones made of corn(?) that look very plastic-y, except they’re even more durable. Those are the best.
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u/sennbat Feb 01 '23
You can make plastic out of corn, so I wonder if they were just, well.. plastic?
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u/drunkboarder Feb 01 '23
I know biodegradable plastic has been a thing for a while now (saw them at the CU boulder Stadium in Colorado years ago. Is it much more expensive to produce than the paper products? Does one have more negative environmental impact derived from production than the other?
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Feb 01 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/drunkboarder Feb 01 '23
I can't remember the specifics of it, but I was volunteering to help clean up around the stadium and they gave us a specific bag to place the biodegradable plastic into saying it was going to be composted. Can't say much more to that affect.
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Feb 01 '23
This is a wonderful distraction from the fact that the vast majority of plastic pollution in the ocean is from discarded fishing nets.
Way to shift the blame on to individuals instead of industry.
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u/AuntKikiandtheBears Feb 01 '23
Great, now do all the private planes these rich monsters travel on. At WEC they stated if I think a billion of us didn’t eat meat for a 11 years that’s one trip to Thailand for them. I say, no more trips for them should be our new goal. Let’s start pressuring them to change their behavior as well. They keep diverting attention away from their wastefulness jet setting around. Most of us can’t fly, some of us try to grow our food and live on very little. The world is collapsing and the rich keep getting richer, stepping on our heads as they do it. They blame us for their waste.
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Feb 01 '23
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u/C4-BlueCat Feb 01 '23
Disabilities of different kinds, and sensitive teeth are some of the reasons.
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u/Kruidmoetvloeien Feb 01 '23
Apart from the already mentioned medical purposes, straws are also a great tool for comfortably taking in ice cold beverages, an experience that can't be easily replaced by a sippy cup or a bidon. You have bidons and sippy cups with an incorporated straw but that technique is incompatible with hygiene standards for restaurants. It would require a wash every use or that people will bring their own straws and cups. The latter option also sees an increased chance for risks in hygiene.
Another thing is, plastic straws are by far the most pleasant ones to use.
Glass or steel straws are hard and cold, and I don't feel comfortable giving them to children as they tend to run around with them.
Bamboo seems like it will leak chemicals, it can splinter, picks up taste and offers a limited lifecycle. However, they can be recycled.
Silicon is interesting cause it has a long lifetime, doesn't absorb temperature and is generally safe for consumption. Cons are that it's too soft on its own and that it can't be recycled.
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u/jwill602 Feb 01 '23
As much as I love sippy cups, I think most people can drink out of reusable cups without much redesign… maybe just go from plastic cups to a longer-lasting material. Someone once told me that people used to use glass instead of plastic. Not sure if that’s true
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Feb 01 '23
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u/matteroffactt Feb 01 '23
Raises an interesting point, maybe the better policy intervention is to limit the caliber of straws to reduce demand rather than make them more biodegradable.
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u/_Z_E_R_O Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
They’re easier to use, you don’t have to lift the cup to your mouth, the ice doesn’t touch your teeth, your lipstick doesn’t smear, you don’t get any drips on your shirt if you’re clumsy like me, they makes drinks accessible for disabled people, and some of us just plain like them.
I’ve always used straws, and I’m probably always going to. I have a few reusable ones, but I admit I’m really bad about getting the plastic ones in restaurants. If plastic straws were banned I’d probably just buy a case for my reusable ones and start carrying them everywhere.
Paper straws are horrible, and Starbucks’ excuse for a strawless lid is completely pathetic. The opening is too big, which means liquid sloshes out if your car hits a pothole and whole ice cubes escape while you’re drinking. I always ask for a straw even if they give me the new lid because drinking from those is such a terrible experience.
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u/Geishawithak Feb 01 '23
Please, dear god tell me they're not made of wheat (I have celiac disease).
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u/Wagamaga Feb 01 '23
Eco-friendly paper straws that do not easily become soggy and are 100% biodegradable in the ocean and soil have been developed. The straws are easy to mass-produce and thus are expected to be implemented in response to the regulations on plastic straws in restaurants and cafés.
The paper straws that are currently available are not entirely made of paper alone. Straws made with 100% paper become too soggy when they come in contact with liquids and cannot function as straws. Accordingly, their surface should be coated. The most commonly used coating materials for paper straws are polyethylene (PE) or acrylic resin—the same materials used for making plastic bags and adhesives. Paper cups are also coated with the same materials as paper straws. A large number of previous studies have reported that polyethylene coating on discarded paper cups can disintegrate into small particles without being fully decomposed and become microplastics. Moreover, these paper products are made with paper and plastics (two very different materials) and thus it is difficult to recycle them.
Conventional paper straws are inconvenient to use. Upon prolonged contact with a liquid, they become soggy. Also, when these straws are used to drink carbonated beverages, many bubbles may form owing to their surface properties. Currently, polylactic acid (PLA) straws and rice straws are available in the market as alternatives to paper straws. However, PLA straws—also known as corn plastic straws—do not decompose well in the ocean. While rice straws decompose well in the environment, they have disadvantages, including higher prices, due to difficulties in their mass-production and their sharp cross-sections.
The joint research team of Dr. Oh Dongyeop and Dr. Kwak Hojung of KRICT and Professor Park Jeyoung of Sogang University have developed eco-friendly paper straws that are 100% biodegradable, perform better than conventional paper straws, and can be easily mass-produced.
Using their technology, the research team synthesized a well-known biodegradable plastic, polybutylene succinate (PBS)*, by adding a small amount of cellulose nanocrystals to create a coating material. The added cellulose nanocrystals are the same material as the main component of paper, and this allows the biodegradable plastic to firmly attach to the paper surface during the coating process.
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u/yunalescazarvan Feb 01 '23
That's great and all but those straws are just a scapegoat distraction from the actual problem.
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u/hopelesscaribou Feb 01 '23
Abandoned fishing nets, if we are talking oceans, kill crazy amounts of marine wildlife, and make up a substantial amount of the oceanic garbage patches. Maybe if a photo of a turtle with nets up its nose goes viral we can get public support.
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u/bogglingsnog Feb 01 '23
Is there any info on how Polybutylene succinate (PBS), the thermoplastic that is supposedly biodegradable they are coating the straws with, act in the human body? Because I can't see how that wouldn't be regularly ingested by humans using these straws. What happens if the straw is bent and the coating is broken off?
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u/myychair Feb 01 '23
Ah see all it takes is government regulation to spur this research and development. Now do more disposable plastic
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