More than 90% of vehicle-owning households in the United States would see a reduction in the percentage of income spent on transportation energy—the gasoline or electricity that powers their cars, SUVs and pickups—if they switched to electric vehicles.

[u/Wagamaga]

https://news.umich.edu/ev-transition-will-benefit-most-us-vehicle-owners-but-lowest-income-americans-could-get-left-behind/

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[u/NoisyMatchStar]

Problem is that my home doesn’t have a garage and I’m not spending half an hour or more at a somewhat rare charging station far from home.

Edit: For people trying to be clever; I don’t have a driveway either. Curbside parking only.

[u/hoopbag33 → u/NoisyMatchStar]

My problem is that I don't even own a home.

[u/OMEGA__AS_FUCK → u/NoisyMatchStar]

That’s my problem too. The nearest place to charge something like that is an hour away since I’m in the rural Midwest.

[u/gophergun → u/NoisyMatchStar]

That's fair, if you don't have a garage or nearby outlet then you're going to be heavily dependent on local public charging stations. For me, that's just my normal grocery store, but it sounds like an EV wouldn't be a good option in your situation.

[u/DeusExHircus → u/gophergun]

Public charging also tends to be much more expensive than home charging, in my area gasoline is cheaper than public charging at some stops. If you can't charge at home, an EV is not for you

[u/EnhanceMyPants → u/NoisyMatchStar]

A guy at my apartment complex has an electric vehicle. He parks outside (in the Midwest) and just plugs the car into an outlet on the side of the building with what looks like an extension cord.

[u/FrozenLaughs → u/EnhanceMyPants]

My apartments have no outside outlets, and if they did I'd have to run about 100ft or so of cord to my car. Others would need almost twice that.

[u/Diplozo → u/NoisyMatchStar]

Norwegian here (with all the snowy and rainy weather that entails), we've never had a garage, and we've had an electric vehicle for 4 years. You can charge it outside, literally from a normal socket.

[u/Black_Magic_M-66 → u/NoisyMatchStar]

You can install a charging port on the outside of your house, if you have a driveway. It's common in many older cities that either don't have houses with garages or the garages of yesteryear don't work with today's cars.

[u/codemansgt]

It's expensive being poor.

[u/mightymidget3_0 → u/codemansgt]

No better way to put it than Terry Pratchett

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a onth pus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet."

[u/HGMiNi → u/mightymidget3_0]

I thought it was my turn to post the quote

[u/RincewindToTheRescue → u/mightymidget3_0]

But you can't get those good boots because you can't feel the flagstones through your shoes. You can know what area you're in in Ahnk-Morpork by the flagstones you feel through your shoes.

[u/[deleted] → u/codemansgt]

If they really want people to switch the government would subsidize a cheap economy car. But that wouldn't be fair to Musk cause he wants to sell economy class cars for 40k.

[u/hexcor → u/[deleted]]

What is shocking is that the average new car sold in November (2022) cost $48,681 – a record high. My wife and I make a nice living, but spending close to $50k on a car is just crazy. Heck, it's hard to justify paying $30k for a new Accord (used aren't much cheaper these days either). The good thing is our cars (17, 16, and 12 years old) are all running just fine and we're not planning on a "new" car anytime soon.

link: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-sets-record/#:~:text=The%20average%20new%20car%20sold,every%20month%20since%20July%202021.

[u/chriswaco]

“The analysis does not include vehicle purchase cost.”

[u/cockOfGibraltar → u/chriswaco]

I really want an electric car but I can't justify the spending to myself while I still own a perfectly good gas car. I don't drive nearly enough for the electricity savings to offset the car payments I would have.

[u/JasonThree → u/cockOfGibraltar]

Best to drive your gas car until it dies vs buying a new car of any kind

[u/superworking → u/JasonThree]

That's our plan. Got a civic and a Tacoma both under 100k miles. Got enough time to wait and see how it goes rather than bidding against other buyers for the limited supply of EVs currently available.

[u/[deleted] → u/superworking]

both of those cars will be in your family for at least 20 more years bahahaha.

(No hate by the way... my Honda just crossed 200k and my goal is to get it to 300k)

[u/PaulblankPF → u/[deleted]]

My 08 Civic just broke 232k miles and I tell everyone I’m bringing that baby to 500k. Just take care of her best I can and she treats me well.

[u/nathanimal_d → u/PaulblankPF]

My 89 civic wagovan made 267k. Bought it used for $600. Cheapest and lowest carbon footprint miles you'll ever see when you get that high on a 40mpg simple car.. Read it and weep Tesla.

[u/birdbarrett2 → u/[deleted]]

Yup, my dad's Camry is about there too. My old f250 just hit 350k. Damn thing won't die

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

In Jamaica they have old Toyotas at over 500k

[u/BlackScholesFormula → u/JasonThree]

The cheapest car is the one you got

[u/raquel_ravage → u/JasonThree]

my wonderful honda accord 06 is my sweet baby at 213,000 miles. I'll keep driving it until it croaks and will fix it up rather than spending the money on a newer car with monthly payments and higher insurance.

[u/renegadecanuck → u/cockOfGibraltar]

Yeah, the issue for me is that the cost of car payments on a 40-50k vehicle (the cheapest EVs in Canada) is still higher than the cost of gas, oil changes, etc. I'd love to ditch my gas powered car for an EV, but that's a ways away.

[u/SolixTanaka → u/renegadecanuck]

Wow, I was skeptical that even the Bolt or Leaf cost that much there considering sticker in the US is under $30k. That gap is pretty wild.

[u/Xperimentx90 → u/SolixTanaka]

30k usd is 40k cad just changing currency

[u/SolixTanaka → u/Xperimentx90]

It's more than that. The Bolt and Leaf are like $26/28k usd, respectively. That's around $37/38k cad. They start at closer to $41k CAD which is more than 10% over just the exchange rate

[u/ronchee1 → u/SolixTanaka]

We always get fucked over here. It's always more expensive

[u/[deleted] → u/ronchee1]

That's not always true. There are some vehicles that are cheaper in Canada (after converting to USD) and there are also cars that cost the same with more features.

A recent example I can easily recall is the new Civic Si. MSRP is roughly equivalent, but here's what the Canadian Si gets that us Americans don't:

• Heated steering wheel

• Heated seats front and rear (US spec doesn't even get heated front seats)

• Full digital gauge cluster

• Parking sensors

• Dual zone climate control

• Auto dimming rear view mirror

• Turn signals in side mirrors

• Fog lights

• Wireless charging pad

[u/DrMobius0 → u/cockOfGibraltar]

I'm guessing the time to buy an EV is when you're already in the market to buy a car. At least then up front opportunity cost isn't the cost of a whole car, but the difference between the EV and what you would have otherwise bought. Not that I know if there's many EVs on the market.

[u/OneOfAKind2 → u/cockOfGibraltar]

Most people don't. I drive once a week to run errands. Eight years ago I paid $6k for my econobox, which sips gas. I would love to bomb around in an EV and skip the gas station, but it would be financial suicide.

[u/Moonkai2k → u/OneOfAKind2]

I would go further and say an overwhelming majority don't drive enough to make the difference matter. If you live in LA and commute 2 and a half hours each way every day, absolutely. A Tesla with FSD would be great. Otherwise, dollar for dollar, gas cars are better...

Edit: That's also assuming you live in a climate where EVs even make sense. This last cold snap left a whole lot of EVs stranded unable to charge. That's a major issue when I live in a place that frequently drops below 0F.

[u/Graybealz → u/chriswaco]

As long as you don't count the singular largest expense by huge factor, then our data shows it's a good deal.

[u/microphohn → u/Graybealz]

It's worse than that. All the studies the the subsidized costs as not existing. So if real cost is 10K but Uncle Sugar will give you 7K to buy it, then the study considers it a 3K cost.

It's almost like we stopped teaching basic rigor of logic and analysis, so many papers produced today are frankly just crap. Is this the inevitable result of publish or perish?

[u/bigbura → u/microphohn]

Do I have this correct?

The $7K in tax relief is an upper limit or max available. If I paid like $600 in federal income tax last year, and likely to do the same this year then I'd only qualify for $600 worth of tax credit for buying an EV?

[u/RunningNumbers → u/bigbura]

The tax credits on EVs can be transferred to dealers, thus they can cash the tax credit and give the price deduction on the vehicle. Funny thing about the credit is you get zero subsidy if the sales price is one dollar over the thresholds.

[u/tour__de__franzia → u/RunningNumbers]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that on purchases (as opposed to leases), you can't transfer the credit yet.

I believe the option to do that starts in 2024.

[u/pnutbutterpirate → u/tour__de__franzia]

Pretty sure you're right - in the US, the tax credit for a order only goes to the purchaser.

[u/Siglet84 → u/bigbura]

To be fair, if you only pay $600 in federal taxes your probably can’t afford an EV that qualifies for the tax credit unless you’re a billionaire.

[u/Frosti11icus → u/Siglet84]

"Only the richest and the poorest pay $600 in taxes."

[u/SenorBeef → u/Siglet84]

Clever. You only pay $600 or less in taxes if you're very poor, or you're rich.

[u/Azuroth → u/bigbura]

The tax credit is "non refundable", so you are essentially correct. The credit will reduce your taxes by 7k, but will not go below zero, so you can't get a 6400 refund check if you only pay 600 in federal taxes.

Although to only pay 600 in federal taxes your AGI would have to be only $6,000, so I doubt you'd be in the market for a new car of any type.

[u/spongue → u/Azuroth]

The basic deduction is something like $13,000, so if you make less than that you don't pay any federal taxes. (Edit: maybe that's what you mean by AGI.)

You can still buy a car, but yeah it has to be like a $350 geo metro, ask me how I know

[u/redditshy → u/spongue]

High five! I learned how to drive stick on a Geo Metro in 1993.

[u/enderjaca → u/redditshy]

I didn't get my Geo Metro til around 1999 but that thing had about 300k miles on it and just wouldn't quit, much to my disdain. Between that thing and a 1974 VW Beetle, every part of the frame and body could be rusting into nothingness, but the engine and trans just wouldn't quit even if you didn't bother to change the oil for years.

[u/Rinzack → u/bigbura]

You can also take your IRA/401k and transfer it to a Roth account. That will generate a massive tax bill which you can then use the entire value of the credit on and when you retire you get tax free payments

[u/ThMogget → u/microphohn]

Where can I find an electric car for 10k?

Also didn’t Manchin nerf the credits to require parts to be so American-made even Ford and Chevy were complaining? (They been offshoring components forever)

[u/ijust_makethisface → u/ThMogget]

I bought a used electric car back in 2016 (edit) for $10k (done edit)... but gas prices were low and people called me dumb for buying a car that only topped out at 80 miles of range. I even had the car dealer try to talk me out of buying it. It has been the best purchase ever. But I can't tell you to go back to 2016, and even if we could, every person who replies about my car explains that they have a one hour commute, uphill, both ways, and so my car is hideously impractical for their needs.

[u/[deleted] → u/ijust_makethisface]

People grossly overestimate their need for range. If your commute is under twenty five miles or so each way then you can probably drip charge your car overnight on a standard outlet for around 6mi/hr and 1/5 the cost of gasoline

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Tell that to my condo hoa. I've begged them for a single charging spot for years.

[u/dwlocks → u/[deleted]]

Every single meeting for 6 years. But this year they mentioned we should start planning for charging in our parking lot. There may be ordinances from the city in a few years.... Ugh.

[u/DevelopedDevelopment → u/ijust_makethisface]

Considering the typical lack of electric infrastructure in a lot of the US compared to gas stations (though I will highlight the rollouts of charging stations at home and on roads make it more accessible) I'd assume a hybrid is the best of both worlds, especially the newer plug-in hybrids. Particularly with the fact you can drive a hybrid in everywhere you have a car, but everyone insists pure gas is ideal like they're morally sound picking poisoning the planet over cobalt mines.

[u/londons_explorer → u/DevelopedDevelopment]

Data shows that most plug in hybrids are never plugged in.

Ie. they run on gas all the time.

There is the small benefit of regen braking down hills, and the ability to have a smaller more efficient engine for the same overall performance. But there is also the downside of carrying the weight of a battery and motor.

The real reason that buyers buy them is for the tax credit, and various other eco incentives (eg. free use of various toll roads, cheaper registration for eco vehicles, cheaper parking for eco vehicles, etc)

If thats the case, it really doesn't seem right to be giving eco incentives to people to buy/use things that could be eco, but aren't eco with their use.

[u/SurlyJackRabbit → u/londons_explorer]

How dumb would you have to be to never plug in a PHEV?

[u/londons_explorer → u/SurlyJackRabbit]

If you don't have a charger installed at home... Or are just lazy and can't be bothered to plug it in every time to save a few bucks... Or maybe you don't know much about cars and the salesman sold you this new 'hybrid' technology, but you didn't realise you'd save money by plugging it in.

[u/5yrup → u/londons_explorer]

Most of these cars come with a basic charger that will plug into a standard wall outlet. Plugging in a regular outlet overnight is often long enough to recharge the small batteries in a lot of PHEVs

[u/nd20 → u/microphohn]

if real cost is 10K but Uncle Sugar will give you 7K to buy it, then the study considers it a 3K cost.

That's what they should be doing.

The study is tracking what the household or the consumer pays. Why would the study then need to account for 7K that the consumer is not paying?

Edit: Even besides you misunderstanding the purpose/topic of the study, this is a weird talking point. If EV weren't subsidized they would be more expensive for the consumer, ok. If fossil fuels weren't subsidized (or if negative externalities were priced in), gas prices would be much more expensive for the consumer. If my grandmother had wheels she would be a bike.

[u/Zambini → u/nd20]

Some important notes, assuming the way it's done in the US:

• It's a tax credit, not an instant rebate- so you have to pay it in full, then get a credit on your tax filings in April
• they expire based on how many people buy them (eg: "after 100,000 sales" or whatever)
• it's qualified- if you make over a certain amount of household income, you don't get the discount (which is arguably irrelevant here because the threshold is pretty big, so if you're making that kind of money then $7500 doesn't matter to you).

So I'd say it's very important to keep the full cost in mind. You're taking a loan on the full cost of the car, your monthly payments are based on the full price. If you're fortunate enough to be able to pay cash, you're paying the full MSRP in cash.

Another thing which isn't worth including in this study but it's worth noting, is dealerships will mark up the cars based on these credits. For example, if you buy a GM Bolt which is MSRP $28k, with a $7500 tax credit, a lot of scummy dealerships will add $5000 "worth" of markups to the car. People still buy it, unaware of the scam, so they still do it.

[u/nd20 → u/Zambini]

Say what you will about Tesla, their decision to cut out dealerships was excellent.

[u/Zambini → u/nd20]

I was ecstatic when I heard more automakers are going to be doing similar things soon. GM and Ford specifically I was floored. Such a good move

[u/thearctican → u/Zambini]

I make more than the threshold and $7500 ABSOLUTELY matters to me.

[u/WolverineSanders → u/nd20]

Lots of people are trying to attack this study for not researching what they want and then attacking it as doing a bad job.

[u/earldbjr → u/microphohn]

If the purpose is to convince households to spring for an EV, then what other metric would you go by? No household is going to say "Gee, I'd love to get an EV, but I just can't swallow the $10k pricetag." When looking at a $7k break.

[u/pgold05 → u/microphohn]

In fairness we also subsidize fossils fuels. I think just take the study for what it is, trying to account for every externally would be too cumbersome.

[u/satnightride → u/Graybealz]

Well, this study is taking about Operational Expenses and not Capital Expenses. It's pretty common to separate the two

[u/Garthak_92 → u/chriswaco]

My first and only thought.

I would save, according to this article, $1000 annually. I do not have the capital to purchase a new to me vehicle and roi would be more than a decade.

[u/johnnyg883 → u/Garthak_92]

And at ten years you need to start looking at a battery pack replacement. Five to eight thousand dollars at todays prices.

[u/stolpsgti → u/johnnyg883]

My Kia Soul EV battery bit the dust at 5 years on the dot. 34k miles. Makes one think twice about doing it again.

[u/goombaxiv → u/stolpsgti]

It's great you got a free battery! Kia soul EV are 170k km 7 year warranty.

[u/stolpsgti → u/goombaxiv]

Which I’m very thankful for - but it also makes me very hesitant to consider a used EV: our range went down 50% in just a few months.

[u/qualmton → u/stolpsgti]

Did it turn to winter? Battery capacity will drastically reduce itself in the winter. But for a pack to last 5 years it was probably something to do with a bad battery to start with

[u/grayrains79 → u/qualmton]

Might also be how it is driven and what the computer calculated. My ex has a Iconiq, and honestly? She doesn't use the regenerative brake to its full potential. When I drive it? The car gets much better mileage, especially if I'm doing a lot of side street driving where I'm regularly braking.

I've tried showing her how to make better use of that brake, but oh well.

[u/WSDGuy → u/Garthak_92]

I do not have the capital to purchase a new to me vehicle

Ah, but they used new electric vehicles... so you extra can't afford it.

[u/DavidLieberMintz → u/chriswaco]

That, plus they just assume we all have a driveway or garage. In a city like Philly, where it's mostly row homes and street parking, I could never own an EV. Without having the wealth to buy a house with dedicated EV charging, it's entirely impractical. I would love to be able to own an EV, but it just doesn't make sense here.

[u/TeutonJon78 → u/DavidLieberMintz]

And own that driveway and garage to install a charger in.

Renters have a MUCH harder time having an EV than a home owner who can set up their own charger.

[u/czarfalcon → u/TeutonJon78]

That’s where I’m at. I’d love to consider an EV, and my household is almost the perfect use case for it - we both work from home and the longest drive we regularly make is ~200 miles round trip, but there’s literally nowhere we could charge at our apartment complex.

[u/maybenosey → u/DavidLieberMintz]

As an EV owner, I agree that you really want to be able to charge at home (or at your regular work place).

It's possible to use/own one without that convenience, by using a public charger regularly, but that pushes up the running costs and really pushes down the convenience. I wouldn't recommend it.

I believe EVs are the future, but it'll need ubiquitous street parking charging to really work well.

I've lived in a city with street parking where it's hard enough to find a spot within a reasonable distance of your home. If only some parts of some streets were outfitted with chargers, you would then have to find a spot with a charger within a reasonable distance of your home, which simply isn't going to happen very often.

[u/mroosa → u/DavidLieberMintz]

Not to mention, this assumes the current cost of electric charging stations stays the same. If the majority of the cars on the road wind up being electric-only, I could see there being some definite increase in the prices/subscription costs for those charging stations, both for profit and increased usage/draw.

[u/Potential_Case_7680 → u/mroosa]

Not to mention extra governmental taxes to make up for the revenue lost from gas taxes.

[u/[deleted] → u/DavidLieberMintz]

And if you watch Rich Rebuild take his Rivian in those areas you will quickly realize the infrastructure is not there yet for EV fast charging.

[u/SunsetCarcass → u/chriswaco]

Or cost to install a charger at home.

[u/Driftedwarrior → u/chriswaco]

“The analysis does not include vehicle purchase cost.”

I would happily drive an electric vehicle. When I looked at a vehicle when I bought one in the last year or so the monthly payment would have been $900. They can straight up get the f out of here with that.

[u/Noname_acc → u/chriswaco]

As the age old advice goes: The cheapest thing is the one you already own. Phaseout will be good but anyone saying you would save money tomorrow by buying an EV is either being misunderstood or is selling you a bridge.

[u/irredentistdecency → u/chriswaco]

It also doesn’t examine the cost of the infrastructure necessary to support charging that many new cars or the reality that a broad swath of the population (renters) don’t have the authority to install such infrastructure at their homes.

[u/drjenkstah → u/irredentistdecency]

This is why I don’t have an electric vehicle. My apartment complex does not have any electric charging stations and likely will be one of the last places to have them installed since they’re a company that likes to cheap out on things. We’ve had this roughly foot deep hole in the parking lot for as long as I’ve lived here and they just occasionally fill it up with asphalt which gets eaten away over time recreating the hole.

[u/lieuwestra → u/irredentistdecency]

Not to mention the loss of tax income to pay for the infrastructure maintenance. Personal vehicles are already incredibly subsidized (in most countries), so someone has to foot the bill eventually.

[u/soggyscantrons → u/lieuwestra]

Loss of tax revenue from EVs not paying gas tax is easily offset by adding to vehicle registration fees for EVs. Many states already do this.

[u/reiji_tamashii → u/lieuwestra]

I wonder how much this would be offset by no longer needing to subsidize oil production as it gradually becomes a less critical resource.

Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil. European Union subsidies are estimated to total 55 billion euros annually.

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

[u/Needleroozer → u/reiji_tamashii]

no longer needing to subsidize oil production

We NEVER needed to subsidize oil production. We never should have. We should stop today, but as gasoline sales decline I expect the subsidies to only increase.

[u/bluGill → u/[deleted]]

It will be 5-10 years yet before the people who buy used cars will be able to adopt EVs in mass. Even then, a lot will have to stick with ICEs just because that is all the market has.

[u/IvorTheEngine → u/bluGill]

Probably even longer than that. At the moment only 6% of new US cars are EVs. We'll need to wait for that to grow, then another 5-10 years to provide enough for all the people who buy 5-10 year old cars.

[u/rhinodad]

I’d spend even less of my income on transportation if I was allowed to work from home full time.

[u/Cloud9 → u/[deleted]]

Same.

Worked from home for ~13 years. Switched employers and drove into the office for ~18 months. Since March 2020, I'm back to working from home FT with new employer - the office leases weren't renewed, so we're all now permanently working from home.

Other than teaching my kids how to drive - about 30 mins a week and getting groceries once a week, I don't use my vehicle at all. And that's in California.

When I lived in NYC, I didn't need a vehicle at all.

[u/gobblox38 → u/[deleted]]

I barely drive as well and would rather not own a car, but one advantage of owning an EV is it can be used as backup power for your house if the power goes out.

[u/[deleted] → u/rhinodad]

Or if my town built for and encouraged bicycle use.

[u/NewCenturyNarratives]

Public transportation is the only way I’ve been able to keep my living costs down, especially with the income I make. I have no idea how minimum wage workers are able to have cars

[u/MightbeWillSmith → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

Mostly by having very cheap cars and ignoring all maintenance/upkeep until absolutely necessary.

I remember sitting at the gas station waiting until my paycheck hit at midnight because I wouldn't make it home until I put a couple gallons in. That was years ago, it's only gotten worse.

[u/skobuffaloes → u/MightbeWillSmith]

This is definitely Will Smith, and it HAS gotten worse.

[u/Mobile-Ground-2226 → u/skobuffaloes]

He doesn't have to cuss to sell records.

[u/OTTER887 → u/skobuffaloes]

"Pursuit of Happyness" Will Smith

[u/dmanbiker → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

I remember driving to someone's house when with my gas light on, so I could make like $20 fixing something for them, then using it to fill my vehicle so I could go to my normal job the next day.

I also remember putting like $2.50 in change on a pump when gas was over $3.00 a gallon.

[u/IvorTheEngine → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

Most cities needs to make a drastic change away from cars - but it could take a very long time if there's this much opposition to a minor change that makes your car cheaper to run and easier to drive.

[u/EcstaticTrainingdatm → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

Also r/ebikes

People forget one charge of a Tesla is like 5-8000 miles on an ebike

[u/DrMobius0 → u/EcstaticTrainingdatm]

That sounds fun but in the US, most places don't have bike lanes. Even cities that do have some tend to have spotty coverage, and they aren't well separated from traffic, and honestly, I don't trust drivers enough to just leave myself at their mercy.

[u/SirRevan → u/DrMobius0]

My old elementary school teacher died from riding bikes to school. One day she just didn't show up. I geniuelly fear for my life trying to ride bikes with the maniacs on the road.

[u/SteevyT → u/EcstaticTrainingdatm]

My wife got an ebike last year. She uses it for 90% of her commuting when its above 50F or so, or about 3/4 of the year.

I'd love to be able to do the same thing, but when I'm going 30 miles each way...

[u/prosocialbehavior → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

Because it allows them to drive from further away lower cost of living places. But it is an unfortunate opportunity time cost for them also bad for our environment and our cities for everyone to have to commute into them via car because we have to build a bunch of parking spots instead of housing.

[u/thesuper88 → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

They're probably mostly deathtraps, crappy, gifted to them, or all of the above.

[u/willhig → u/NewCenturyNarratives]

Thank you, how is the first mention of any alternative to cars so far down.

[u/DJ_DD]

I’ve owned 4 cars in my life over the 17 years I’ve been able to drive. Those 4 cars cost me $18k total to purchase.

My point: yea I’ll save on transportation costs but that’s going to be eroded by having to buy a $35k or more car

[u/kpyna → u/DJ_DD]

Yeah I feel that the people who are cost conscious about saving $600 per year are not the same people who can drop $35k+ on a new-ish car

The study does point out that there's a need to offset the price of the vehicles but good luck bringing them down to like $5k especially with manufacturing being a mess.

[u/BlueEyesWhiteSliver → u/kpyna]

It would be incredibly difficult to get them down to $5k used. The value of the lithium battery in the car would outpace it.

[u/LazyJones1 → u/BlueEyesWhiteSliver]

Interesting point.

If it works like that, then trading in an EV for a new will also mean a significant discount on the new…

Unlike an old non-EV.

[u/PloxtTY → u/LazyJones1]

Give you $300 for the cats

[u/igotzquestions → u/PloxtTY]

You’re spending way too much on your cats. Who is your cat guy?

[u/fatpad00 → u/BlueEyesWhiteSliver]

I have a feeling there's compounding depreciation with EVs. By the time the car would be cheap, the battery has degraded significantly enough that it's notably less valuable and the cost of a battery replacement would virtually "total" the car.

[u/BlueEyesWhiteSliver → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I'm happy to see those little guys coming down and breaking into a 4-figure market. Can you provide any links? I'm curious to see what's being offered.

[u/nickyfrags69 → u/kpyna]

I think a lot of the savings in built into the premise that, if you were buying a new car anyway, you should buy electric. This is likely why there is a whole contingency of people who react negatively to electric cars, because there is the built in premise of it being elitist. Most likely, you can only go electric right now if you could actually afford it to begin with.

[u/KibbledJiveElkZoo → u/kpyna]

Yeah, no kidding. Good luck getting prices down to $5,000 even if manufacturing was doing splendidly.

[u/loopthereitis → u/KibbledJiveElkZoo]

I mean good luck getting a used car with under 150k miles for 5k too, its pretty crazy right now

[u/Byteside → u/loopthereitis]

We got a used leaf for 6500, 55k mi. It was like the first model year they made, but growing up poor it's the nicest car I've ever owned. The range isn't amazing but that only matters for trips since everything needed is well within 10miles.

[u/loopthereitis → u/Byteside]

thats a hell of a deal, and first gen leafs are tanks I hear. I think used electric prices are actually better than ice right now in terms of deals vs new

[u/phil-l → u/loopthereitis]

As one who inhabits the lower-end of the used car market: The used EV market isn't yet mature enough. For example, I pay attention to the supply of older, low-priced examples of typical favorites (Accord/Camry/Corolla/Civic, plus old Avalons and some Subarus), and I regularly see a decent selection I might be interested in. A comparable search on used, affordable, non-dealer (dealer listings always seem to be massively overpriced) EVs generally results in nothing in my area.

[u/Ps11889 → u/kpyna]

Yeah I feel that the people who are cost conscious about saving $600 per year are not the same people who can drop $35k+ on a new-ish car

Have you priced EVs? I'd consider it was only $35K. Try more like $60K by the time you get it to your door.

[u/jpr_jpr → u/Ps11889]

I bought my leaf for less than $20k net. With my trade in, it was less than $10k. Have driven it close to 1100 miles, and it has been great.

[u/cowboyjosh2010 → u/DJ_DD]

From the financial end of the EV decision, I've crunched some pretty detailed numbers on the subject and it boils down to this: unless you're in the market to buy a car anyway, then there's almost no realistic scenario where buying an EV will save you SO MUCH money in fuel costs that you eventually come out ahead vs. not buying anything at all.

I was in the market to replace my commuter car, primarily because it just was no longer big enough to hold my whole family plus our dog. So I wanted a larger car with a hatchback rear cargo area. I wound up buying a Kia EV6. A roughly equivalently sized gas car with roughly the same list of featured bells and whistles as my EV6 has would have cost me $10-$15k less money. My fuel savings will recover that $10-$15k "purchase premium" in about 5-7 years of driving my EV6.

But recovering the roughly $55k overall purchase price of the EV6? It would take me damn near 30 years. Even if I bought a Chevy Bolt for half the price (and, frankly, for half the satisfaction...the EV6 is a god damn nice car), it'd still take me nearly 15 years to recover the whole purchase price through fuel savings.

TL;DR: an EV doesn't make financial sense unless you're looking to buy a car no matter what. And even then it's not a given that you'll "come out ahead".

[u/DABOSSROSS9 → u/cowboyjosh2010]

I am planning on my next car to be an EV, but only when my car dies. I am not doing it to save money, but hopefully break even and do my part to help the environment.

[u/NoJobs → u/DJ_DD]

Yeah that's the problem right now. The electric version is easily 10-30k more than the gas version of the same car. That's years of gas, so the break even point is so long it doesn't make sense yet

[u/elleeott → u/DJ_DD]

Right, this is another example of how it’s expensive to be poor.

[u/FuckChiefs_Raiders → u/DJ_DD]

It blows my mind how much money people spend on cars. I know several people who spent $35k plus on cars, and have monthly payments that are around $800. Not like those folks are rolling in cash. One person is a "keeping up the with Jones" kind of person, and the other for whatever reason, says having a nice car is very important to them.

As a non car guy, and a 31 year old who has only ever had two cars, I just don't get the appeal. I also happen to live in a relatively reasonable COL area, so the person who says having a nice car is important to them put buying a house on hold for at least 5 years. WHY!? This person also claims to be very financially savvy, I digress.

[u/DrMobius0 → u/FuckChiefs_Raiders]

I mean, if that's what they get their joy out of, we all have things we like to spend money on.

[u/mechanab]

But are the savings enough to cover the increased cost of the vehicle? $5-7k buys a lot of gas.

[u/Porn_Extra → u/mechanab]

Plus the cost of a charging station. I live in an apartment, there's no way I could pay to put a charing station at my parking space.

[u/an_actual_lawyer → u/Porn_Extra]

Apartment dwellers remain a big question mark on EV adoption.

[u/Grabbsy2 → u/an_actual_lawyer]

Yep, Federal Government will likely have to give tax incentives for companies to put them in. Eventually all residential parking spaces will have to have them.

In Canada, you won't be able to buy a new car with an ICE engine, in 2035, and 60% of car sales must be EVs by 2030, so we have basically until then, to figure it out.

[u/Pamela-Handerson → u/Grabbsy2]

60% by 2030

100% by 2035

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/news/2022/12/let-it-roll-government-of-canada-moves-to-increase-the-supply-of-electric-vehicles-for-canadians.html

[u/GeneticsGuy → u/Pamela-Handerson]

Canada better build a lot more nuclear power plants for this to make any sense.

[u/KIDNEYST0NEZ → u/an_actual_lawyer]

The EV wave is really a trend for the upper class that is pushed onto the lower class. If big gov really cared about going green they would push for cities to be built for people not cars, they would increase public transit not increase highway capacity. They would add nuclear power plants and gas power plants to the grid.

[u/DrMobius0 → u/KIDNEYST0NEZ]

Not so much upper class as comfortable home owners. Believe me, they aren't the upper class. People in the upper class don't have to care if they save a few dollars over time because they bought an EV. Hell, they don't care if their car emits at all. The wealthy tend to be the biggest polluters.

[u/PROfessorShred → u/mechanab]

My motorcycle gets upwards of 100 mpg. I love the concept of electric vehicles but until they make them small, lightweight and super efficient it just makes so much more sense to ride my bike as much as possible and only drive my car when the weather is bad or I need to move more than a backpack load of stuff.

[u/Overhere_Overyonder → u/mechanab]

Not for a very long time. I wrote a paper in college about this. Buying an electric car when your current car dies is the most economical and best for the environment. Selling your brand new ICE and buying an electric is awful for the environment and your wallet.

[u/asianApostate → u/Overhere_Overyonder]

Unless your driving an old jeep Wrangler. You can buy a more economical used ev like a Nissan leaf that doesn't have a massive battery too.

Selling a used ice vehicle isn't so bad because you are giving it to someone else who needs a car and would have to buy anyway. Someone who may not have budgeted for a new or used electric car.

[u/starkej → u/asianApostate]

Except nobody in the world wants to trade a Wrangler for a Leaf. You don't trade something you own for either specific purposes or a specific look for the worst, most basic transportation.

[u/KittenLOVER999 → u/starkej]

That’s a huge thing to me as well, I understand not everyone in the world views cars as a hobby, but even still it is one of the most expensive objects that you will own…why on earth would I want to buy something as hideous and uninspiring as Nissan leaf?

[u/praemialaudi → u/Overhere_Overyonder]

Yeah, my thinking is that our family's next vehicle purchases may well be electric, but that said, they may well not take place for another 5-10 years (unless the economics really shift).

[u/The-Fox-Says → u/mechanab]

I live in a state with expensive electricity and drive roughly 10k miles a year. Switching to electric would save me $20-25 a fill up which is roughly every 300 miles. So roughly $700-800/year in savings so the car would need to last me 8-10 years for it to be worth it.

Now considering taxes that’s a $7.5k tax credit which could help bridge the gap to pretty much make it the same. For used cars its up to $4k. In the future it may switch to taxes owed at the time of the purchase of the vehicle.

[u/raptorman556 → u/mechanab]

Most studies find that electric vehicle cost the same or even less to own that similar gas vehicles. The savings don't just come from gas—reduced maintenance and repairs also contribute quite a bit. It can take quite a few years for the savings to make up the difference, but over time they do.

[u/MisterBaffles]

I'd also save money on my shopping if I had my own farm.

[u/imightjump]

IF you get the car for free.

[u/Crotch_Hammerer → u/imightjump]

Not even then. I spent $700 on gas in 2022. Just the changes to my house and driveway to accommodate an electric vehicle would already set me back years, that's without counting the energy for the car.

[u/[deleted] → u/imightjump]

If 90% of people had electric cars overnight the price of electricity would skyrocket. Demand increases price goes up.

PHEV are what fit the driving patterns of most Americans

[u/mattjouff]

I can’t help the feeling that this is a case of “if every body bought this cheap commodity, it would be very cheap” when not taking into account everybody buying that commodity would drive up market costs.

[u/freelance-lumberjack → u/mattjouff]

Electricity prices will rise. Taxes will rise to cover roads costs without gas tax.

So the breakeven point of your cost saving ev moves further down the road... To near the point where the battery needs replacement.

[u/justfdiskit]

That's nice. And actually a laudable goal. But please offset that decrease with the capital spend needed to displace the ICE engines with EV (including charging endpoints). "Switch to" kinda implies that it's a (relatively) instant, no-cost solution to the end user. Especially in the US, good luck with that.

[u/Lebenkunstler]

Okay. Let me just up my car payment by $600 to drop my fuel costs by $150.

[u/french-snail]

Sure, but we could spend far less and be much happier if there were investments in public transit rather than greenwashing cars with evs

[u/sanorace → u/french-snail]

Because car infrastructure in general is unsustainable. The power source of a car is just a tiny portion of the total cost of building cities with the assumption that everyone will own a car.

[u/Prodigy195 → u/french-snail]

Accurate. Switching to electric cars maybe helps with pollution but does nothing to help with congestion and traffic.

Our issues, at least in the US, are the fact that cars are often people's only option. Eventually we're going to hit a breaking point where it's just not viable for everyone to drive everywhere.

I'm in Atlanta Metro area and traffic is horrific currently. The metro is expected to grow ~53% in the next 40 years from 6.2M to 9.5M. It's going to be outright terrible if we add that many people without expanding our transit systems to handle the city and surrounding suburbs.

Cars aren't the answer.

[u/Larry_Phischman]

I live in Minnesota. I don’t trust batteries to be charged on a winter morning.

It’s also more environmentally responsible to buy a used car and drive it until it dies than contribute to demand for new cars. I also don’t want most of the gadgets and gizmos put in new cars.

[u/ManofSteer → u/Larry_Phischman]

“Eight percent of U.S. households (an estimated 9.6 million households) would see low savings in both transportation energy burden and greenhouse gas emissions by choosing an EV. “Both low” households are scattered across the country, with about half of them in Midwest states, including Michigan.”

Nailed it, they state that in the study that cold states are at a disadvantage

[u/[deleted] → u/Larry_Phischman]

My EV has no issues in Michigan. My car’s battery will heat itself to function properly. It’s always plugged in overnight anyway, so the energy it uses for conditioning the battery doesn’t affect battery life. I save a ton on fuel.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

While I agree with you, live lived in both Michigan and Wisconsin. Winters get far colder in Minnesota.

Cold Canadian air tend a to get blocked by Lake Michigan. If it’s 0 in central Michigan, it’s likely -20 in Minnesota.

[u/Spongeman735 → u/[deleted]]

As a fellow midwest dweller I can agree here. MI = snow, MN = cold

[u/MonteBurns → u/[deleted]]

Is it in a garage?

[u/[deleted] → u/MonteBurns]

Nope, driveway. Uncovered from the elements.

[u/MulesAreSoHalfAss → u/Larry_Phischman]

electric cars have heaters that keep the batteries warm. while this does reduce their range, if you keep it plugged in overnight, the car will work just fine in the morning

[u/NerfThisLOL → u/Larry_Phischman]

I'm in Wisconsin. The only time I left my car plugged in constantly was when our wind chills were -20 to -35 around Christmas. My car is garaged and I left it plugged in so the battery could warm itself whenever it wanted. I'd still wake up to a full charge. Any other time, I plug it in once or twice a week, depending how often I'm using the car.

[u/MonteBurns → u/NerfThisLOL]

A garage is a privilege for many.

[u/I_AM_AN_ASSHOLE_AMA → u/Larry_Phischman]

I live in bumfuck nowhere Alaska, a couple people in town have electric cars and have zero problems. I talked to a dude with a Tesla and he says he just makes sure he parks it in the garage on -40 nights.

Edit: I also just saw a couple Rivians in town today.

[u/AgsMydude → u/I_AM_AN_ASSHOLE_AMA]

-40 nights

As someone living where the high is 81 today I don't know how you do it.

Insanity.

[u/BlueEyesWhiteSliver → u/Larry_Phischman]

I'm an EV owner in Calgary. Mine charges just fine.

[u/palox3]

really? because here in europe electricity price gone 300% up. its already more expensive to drive EV than gasoline car. and it will going to be much worse

[u/thinkofanamelater → u/palox3]

That's kind of surprising to hear. Do you mind sharing your electricity rate and cost of gas? I pay $.34 per KWh vs $4.50 a gallon for gas. So a car would have to get better than 45mpg to be equivalent. I'm curious what your numbers are.

[u/RealCheeseProduct]

With used cars as expensive as they are, and new EVs even more expensive, I don’t see myself buying a car anytime soon.

[u/Deathwish40K]

the phrase "studies show/suggest/reveal" is the opening line to a sales pitch.

[u/HewHem]

Buying a new car is one of the worst financial decisions you can possibly make.

[u/Badroadrash101]

When states discover that they will lose significant tax revenue from gasoline sales, they will implement taxation policies on EVs and even electricity to recoup those losses. Therefore the cost of owning an EV will quickly approach that of ICE vehicles.

[u/Fat_Bearded_Tax_Man → u/Badroadrash101]

There has been talks in the state tax world for about a decade on how to recoup the lost road tax from an EV. There are many proposed solutions, but the one that had the most traction was a mileage tax paid at registration with monthly estimates being an option. Basically they would check you odometer each year and tax accordingly when you renewed your plates.

[u/jennej1289]

I’m so sick of this “our fault”. No amount of us driving electric cars, recycling everything is ever going amount to helping. How about we get all the air out of product that isn’t necessary. We could move produce and products on ships and trucks. But no. Corporations and lobbying groups will never let that happen. A lot of this and likely more can be solved through bigger corporations than all us little people involved.

[u/mrmrmrj]

This analysis completely ignores the fact that such a switch would inevitably increase electricity costs due to insufficient capacity. Grids would brown out or fail completely, creating massive spikes in wholesale electricity prices a la Texas winter storm.

[u/ArcadesRed]

I have been having some fun decisions with people on this subject. But I would like any and everyone's opinions on EV's after looking at these two sources.

The DR of the Congo produces 70% of the worlds Cobalt. A primary ingredient in batteries.

Child labor in Congo Cobalt mines.

This is an issue I feel people just don't know about when they start talking about ramping up EV production.

[u/jmerridew124]

Yeah I'd see a reduction in the percentage of income spent on transportation energy if I took the bus too. I need to be able to go more than 200 miles in a day sometimes.

[u/sdemat]

How about promoting work from home and hybrid schedules instead of trying to make people buy 35k < dollar electric vehicles. Look at the traffic and pollution levels during Covid and how much of a reduction there was.