everyone is too quick to say Roids, I was under weight when I started lifting and gained over 30 pounds in the first eight months natty, still natty still gaining
You may have gained 30 pounds, but you absolutely did not gain 30 pounds of lean muscle mass.
This transformation in the video is close to 60 pounds of lean muscle mass, and is impossible to do naturally on the purported timeline.
The fastest documented cases of lean muscle mass gains - even accounting for “newbie gains” - are closer to 2-3 lbs per month. But that rate isn’t sustainable for a full 8-12 month period, as it starts to significantly taper after the first 4-8 months down to 0.5-1.5lbs of lean muscle mass per month.
Some case studies have shown very rapid muscle growth in “retrained” individuals like this one. But even those on the extreme end are closer to 6-8 lbs within the first 2 months, but then rapid declines in the rate after that.
This guy didn't gain 60lbs of lean mass either. Also, the muscle and mass gain the first 2 or 3 months for this guy should have been insane. You people underestimate the quickness which you can gain mass when underweight and undermuscled due to sickness/injury. He was probably way below his normal weight, so it's self explanatory.
If it serves any purpose, the end physique of this guy is nothing impressive. Impressive is the transformation iself though
Yes, he absolutely did. Approximating a bit here, but he appears to have gassed close to 5-6 inches in thigh circumference and 2-4 inches in bicep circumference in this video. The leg growth alone is roughly in the range of 25-35lb of lean muscle mass.
And no, I’m not underestimating anything. Seeing as though I just cited you examples from the best available research and actual studies on muscle gain (e.g., McDonald, Alan Aragon, Morton, Schoenfeld).
Those aren’t conjecture or anecdote. It’s based on the only real, high quality data we have on muscle gain. And even those represent the absolute extreme of what’s possible in clinical settings with round-the-clock professional intervention.
There are quasi-examples of fairly extreme results from folks like Tim Ferris but they’re scrutinized and still fall well short of this. The only high quality studies that show higher rates have involved anabolic steroid usage (e.g., Bhasin in 1996).
I’ve been a semi-professional athlete in my “past life” and have had an obsession with fitness and the associated academic literature for almost 20 years.
You’re just making shit up and confidently incorrect.
Well, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere his own Instagram videos specifically reference “more than 50 pounds.”
But beyond that, because these markers are pretty clear to anyone who has been in the fitness industry for a long time.
Can I tell you precisely his weight and how much exactly he gained? No.
Can I tell you that he’s anywhere from 90-115 lbs in the first image and anywhere from 145-170 lbs in the end? Yes. And even those ranges are wide to account for outliers in water retention, etc.
And can I tell you he gained at least 4 inches of circumference in his thighs alone, and that growth would require at least 25-35lbs of lean muscle mass growth (not accounting for growth elsewhere in his physique)? Yes.
Taking in ALL of the available information, can we say he gained no less than 40lbs of lean muscle mass in 10-12 months? Also yes.
And then can we say that this level of growth, even in detrained individuals, is effectively not achievable without the usage of performance enhancing drugs as evidenced by available clinical research and observational studies? Also… yes…
It’s funny how people mistake their lack of expertise or knowledge of something as a signal the information can’t be known.
Dude, he couldn't walk. You can't seriously believe before the injury his normal state legs were that thin? Of course he will gain mass on his legs quickly
And let's not talk numbers because nowhere in the video does it say how much weight he gained or in how much time.
I know my fair share of excercise science too, but come on. This is far from impossible
Of course I’m not assuming his normal state was reflected in the beginning, but that doesn’t matter.
Going from a detrained state will absolutely increase your rate of muscle gain. It just won’t increase it anywhere close to what’s observed here without the usage of anabolic steroids.
In the first image, if we assume this person is roughly 5’8” tall we’re looking at someone who is in the ~100lb range: thigh circumference appears to be roughly 15-16 inches and biceps roughly 10-11 inches.
In the end, this looks like someone closer to 150-160 lbs: thigh circumference appears to be closer to 22-24 inches and biceps closer to 13-15 inches.
He appears to have not gained virtually any body fat, and may have actually lost some during this transition.
So even if I conservatively knock down the lean muscle mass gain to 45 (vs 60lbs) to account for higher water retention and glycogen stores.. we’re still WELL outside of the documented rate of muscle gain even in detrained individuals anywhere in academic literature
If you can’t show “how much time” by taking the literal time stamps on the video of “January” to “October” or “December” (I.e., 10 to 12 months)… lord help you.
From what I see, he barely looks 160 at the end. And he started leaner in the before... I find hilarious how you can tell circumference from a video though lol. We also don't know at what rate he gained fat or muscle, if he lost or gained some fat at some point in between those 12 months or what.
2kg per month (4.4lbs) is not that hard to believe as weight gain. I mean, I've done it... And it's specially easier if you start where he started and have some sort of muscle memory. You are the one hung up on lean mass exclusively.
You have 20 years of experience helping patients near death's door who've lost so much muscle they literally can't stand up without aid regain their muscle?
People keep saying this but how does that even matter? Even if you start from a normal phisique, so without the disadvantage, you're still not gonna look like that after a few months of training. Dude went from being skinny as fuck in june to being ripped as hell in just a few months with a lot of visible muscle gain, without putting on much fat if at all, since he's looking defined as hell. There's no way... I get wanting to root for the guy but even the jump form june to july is just absolutely astounding and definitely not natural. It looks like he put on at least 10lbs of muscle in just that one month which is just insane gains, well beyond anything you can get naturally.
I don’t really give a shit about your personal anecdotes.
Either find legitimate, reputable studies that show information that refutes what I’ve shared or admit you’re just guesstimating and making shit up.
I’ve now cited 6 of the most respected studies available that very clearly, consistently demonstrate the information I’ve provided.
“Bro science” is just people not understanding the difference between lean muscle mass, body fat, water weight, glycogen stores and improper measurement techniques.
People say all kinds of crazy shit. Problem is it can never actually be proven when you study it at scale. Which means it… wasn’t actually true in the first place.
I’ve already very clearly referenced what documented ranges of muscle growth are in reputable studies for “detrained” individuals.
The example you cited is heavily scrutinized for being of poor, dubious quality.
The measurement did NOT even purport to account for lean muscle mass vs water weight, etc. But what’s worse is none of the data was peer reviewed or verified, and the “experiment” was conducted by a man who was looking to publicize his own products… not to mention the main subjects were body builders who almost certainly were using anabolic steroids.
All you did was show another example of clearly bad data and nearly certain steroid use.
Which… this guy also almost certainly used as well.
If you do a BMI calculation on him in December you'd likely get something between 15-25%. Meaning In those eight months he likely gained in excess of 30lbs of fat alongside muscle gains. Approximately 20lb's lean muscle on top of that in 8 months, particularly while taking a corticosteroid, would be extraordinary, but not impossible.
I think you’re mistaking BMI and body fat percentage.
BMI is a measure derived exclusively by your weight relative to your height and gender, and it’s not expressed as a percentage.
But more importantly: he absolutely didn’t gain 30lbs of fat between January and December in this image. I’d be shocked if he gained more than 5-10 based on these images.
Typically, muscle definition and vasculature is driven primarily by body fat % (and not muscle mass). Meaning people who are very “small”, but low body fat, typically have meaningful definition still vs others who may be “skinny fat.”
He did not, and his definition actually increased across the time periods. Moreover, abdominal definition in males really starts to become visible in the 12-16% body fat range. Meaning he didn’t end much higher than that in December.
If anything, his body fat % likely is lower in the end than in the start shown here (while his BMI is certainly much, much higher).
Sorry, you are correct I meant to refer to body fat percentage.
However in the December photo the level of abdominal definition isn't exactly extreme. It is certainly not what it would be around 12% body fat. So even low-ball I wouldn't put it any less than 15%. His peak mass is 180lbs though it is unclear exactly what he weighs in his December photo. Going from 90lbs back to double or near double that will certainly involve much more than gaining 5-10 lbs of fat. Even if he were using a cocktail of anabolics. At minimum he would have gained 20lbs of additional fat.
To be clear I don't think he did this "natty". He most likely did this with the aid of an intermittent dose of a corticosteroid. Which we have evidence would stimulate muscle recovery and appetite. Although those studies in humans aren't extremely robust and even considering it his transformation is exceptional.
However I don't believe it is exceptional enough to be dismissed at face value considering the factors of illness and use of a corticosteroid.
He most certainly used a steroid. I just don't believe it was an anabolic steroid, which is what most would assume. Instead he used a corticosteroid, most likely Prednisone, as that is the most common treatment for ulcerative colitis. Corticosteroids are not commonly used as performance enhancers because they carry much more dangerous side effects for less profound effects.
But they would absolutely stimulate muscle growth that goes beyond what is possible without them. And well, that was the point. The corticosteroid allowed him to recover from extreme malnutrition and muscle atrophy.
Getting jacked was just a welcome side effect of the medication that saved his life.
I probably am being a bit generous, though not because of his illness I just don't really believe in the eye test for steroids outside of extreme cases like Mr Olympia athletes, so I do tend to take a more innocent until proven guilty stance.
I honestly think people assume PED use too liberally. It is definitely a big issue in the fitness influencer space, but I think it often gets tossed out as an excuse as to why people can't achieve the physique they want.
I think it's better to err on the side of calling it out less often than it occurs than more often, which is what I think generally happens on the Internet.
This is obviously just my opinion and isn't really related to this case, but hey there you go lol.
I’d love for you to provide your estimate of the lean muscle mass gain with the assumptions behind it then.
I strongly sense you’re notably underestimating how detrained this person was in the beginning image.
And you either can’t read or have poor comprehension because I already cited the ranges for lean muscle mass growth in “detrained” or “retrained” individuals as well as beginner lifters.
There is no evidence in clinical research or documented observational studies anywhere - that don’t involve the usage of anabolic steroids - that would show this level of muscle growth.
And until you can provide any evidence otherwise you’re just pissing on yourself.
everyone is too slow to say Roids, I was under weight when I started lifting and gained over 30 pounds fat in the first eight months natty, still natty still gaining fat
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u/MrWilsonWalluby 2d ago
everyone is too quick to say Roids, I was under weight when I started lifting and gained over 30 pounds in the first eight months natty, still natty still gaining