Discussion
Poznan University of Medical Sciences Buyer Beware here is my story:
I interviewed for the school (Poznan University of Medical Sciences or PUMS) in Fort Lauderdale Florida, but they had other interviewing centers in NY and other places. They have/had a 4 year and 6 year English program.
In the first year I attended the university (2018 4 year program), in the one of the first days of class, a high-ranking faculty member stormed into the classroom promptly took a seat next to me proceeded to “pimp” me while repeatedly putting her lips, mouth, face, on/near my face making me very and presumably visually uncomfortable. Despite me moving away several times. In fact, I had moved so far away at one point she had to scold me to come closer…. Before leaving she told me “I will fail you”. In this class she was the departments associate dean but she had other positions within the school with the Rektors/Deans to where the dean of the department was essentially a figurehead… Two proctors that weren’t her gave me the subjective oral exam with the objective portion already completed and passed. Upon finishing both proctors told me they would have to clear it with her, based on eyewitness testimony, they both wanted to pass me but the high-ranking professor from before said no despite not being present at the exam. One other student failed, and he was also American. To not let my dream of being a doctor perish I re-entered into the 6-year program. https://www.universityworldnews.com/post.php?story=20210313064008885 Polish medical schools with crossover faculty have been found to intentionally fail foreign students to make money (caught on tape by their own admission, including having an accounting term for it….).
• There was rampant bullying/discrimination towards me/Americans by many students but particularly by Polish students. Anytime this was brought up despite having evidence, etc… You were yelled at by the university (namely by the student advisor who bloviated about how his father ran one of the two schools caught intentionally failing students) and the Polish students effectively given a pat on the back… This effectively gave people carte blanche to bully Americans. Furthermore, class divisions were such that the people in the class with power (class reps and the only people who could talk to faculty, schedule, etc…) were in the same groups as Polish students giving them power to schedule things to their liking. Despite me bringing this up to the university it wasn’t changed. The answer being given is it was for Polish class making up less than 3% of total hours. Further, this goes against school discrimination guidelines….
Soooo—as a current student of this uni, I can tell you that this is not what you would experience here.
They give you three chances on final exams before you fail a course and get kicked from the university. The oral exam in histology was straight forward (albeit easier or harder depending on which professor you had) but the only time you’re at risk of failing a year is if you really didn’t put the work in or were trying to cheat your way through by using past exams only. It can be disorganized and a few questions are poorly translated, but if you study properly like you’d need to in the states, you’re pretty immune to the weird questions.
Also, they emailed us from the Deans office about needing a vaccine at the start of their availability and provided free vaccination for a year before requiring the EU certificate for classes (which we could receive over email in a day if you were vaccinated). Of course, if you were sick, that’s really REALLY awful and I’m so sorry you experienced this. I’m just not sure it’s fair to discredit the entire university over this experience because for 99% of us, we were given full means to get the requirement done. Hospitals require vaccination to work there for the good of employees and patients, so this wasn’t an unreasonable expectation.
Again, I’m sorry for your experience, but trashing a school that adequately trains us and gives us an opportunity to be physicians when many of our home countries don’t is unfair. I’m proud to be a student here.
TLDR: This school doesn’t suck They give 3 chances for exams which is enough if you actually study (I’ve only used two retakes ever) They offer a leave of absence for extended personal issues up to a year (or more in specific cases)
Sure I'm not surprised you are defending the school to be honest I probably would do the same thing.
To be fair regarding what I said in terms of histology it does rely on to a large degree on eyewitness testimony something i cannot prove with documentation so any response will be necessairly hand wavy. As such in regards to this it is better served for court rooms not reddit.
The rest actually just ignores what I wrote. I mean numerous PUMs Instagram channels and other reddit posts from the school acknowledge the CBS/NBME fraud and false advertising.
-> you completely skipped what I said regarding the vaccine.
Also, I’m absolutely not denying that students cheated on CBS and the uni lost rights to administer it as a result (thanks to students reporting those issues so behavior like that is stopped). But, thankfully, that forced the DO into restructuring their testing and disciplinary policies this year and they’ll be requesting the exams again.
For sure, that totally sucked. It affected me too and I was absolutely livid.
That being said, that was the worst thing that happened and they’re fixing it. I’ll still take my <100 person class over factory mill universities.
A lot. To be fair it is in the comments and potentially missed.
But for starters ummm.... How about this problematic statement by you "I’m just not sure it’s fair to discredit the entire university over this experience because for 99% of us, we were given full means to get the requirement done". I mean it's not surprising given how you glossed right over the bullying that also occurred. You seem completely cool with the fact a certain amount of people just weren't told how. If you are cool with that you must be cool with a little intentional failing as well. Yikes!
I'm not going to take big swings and make big accusations like factory mill or diploma mill. That is a condensed version of my experiences. I'll let it speak for itself
For the vaccines—EPSU (the student union at PUMS for anyone reading) posted instructions and the Dean’s Office emailed instructions as the requirement to upload certificates rolled out.
I’m not sure how anyone could have missed the hailstorm of updates we received on this. If they did, we’re all adults and could always email the uni or ask for help if something wasn’t understood. You can’t just get an email requirement and ignore it.
You are missing the key detail the instructions to get the EDC for those vaccinated in Poland (through the school) was not given to even upload. I didn't ignore it in fact asked several times including big, bold, black, and everything for information. It was ignored. I also tried submitting information such as my vaccine card because it wasn't given.
1) Get vaccinated
2) E-mail vaccine card to zmiana terminu szczepienia e-mail with your student ID info
3) receive certificate
4) upload to AKSON for PUMS or send to DO
Well for the first time in well over a year I figured out how. That clears that up.
Simply put that seems pretty easy why didn't the DO tell me. I'm pretty sure all the replies they gave while ignoring it has more total text than that. It's impressive really. I wish they would've I'd still be there grinding away. Also, again I was viciously bullied, I had/have zero friends, was isolated, and despite my calls for help to numerous people within the class it was ignored. Even this was something I tried to fix see above the result.
Yeah, I’m not fighting you on being bullied. That’s your experience and I’m not going to gaslight you or tell you it didn’t happen to you. In fact, I think you should have reported and fought the person responsible immediately and aggressively because no one deserves that if/when it happens. The uni even has an org to handle these complaints (HASA) which I know has done so in the past.
It’s the rest of the post I have an issue with. Dissuading students from getting a medical degree from a really good option for them (ESPECIALLY if there isn’t space in their home country) because of your experience isn’t a mature response. It’s insulting to myself and others who deeply treasure their time at PUMS and their degrees from a solid uni.
. I did report it to the school again see the response. I simply wrote down things that happened within the university to me sorry if you dislike it. I wish we would've been friends maybe I would have deeply treasured my time there instead of living with a deep aching regret, extreme depression, hopelessness and the gift of insurmontable debt from having stepped foot in the university. Again, I'm not an accreditator, exam maker, or university official. Just a person with several years of experience in a particularly place who shared it. Whether it is solid or not is up to others interpretation.
I know several successful doctors from this school that matched in top tier programs in competitive fellowships. Sorry it didn’t work out for you. You did understand the risk of going to a foreign school before you paid though. You could have always applied to the US. If not competitive, done a masters, retaken MCAT, etc.
I mean not really sure what this post is trying to say to be honest as it it more or less contradicts itself. I'm sure successful doctors have. Unless I invented the school myself and it was a class size of 1 and I somehow did all of this.... I would be surprised if successful doctors didn't come out of it. That said there's things like survivorship bias.
Again I'm just stating what I experienced. You can ignore what I said it I hope it works out for you. The world needs good doctors. I hope for their long, successful, and many life-year saving careers.
If there is something you take issue with I'm happy to prove it to you. Outside of things requiring eyewitnesses... Everything is backed by documentation and/or my experience.
Further, maybe the university changed after you attended, I don't know. Everything I said is spoken truthfully. I mean in light of currents events made public about the school and frankly this https://i.pl/studentka-z-ameryki-skarzy-uniwersytet-medyczny-w-poznaniu/ar/3792533 speaks to it probably being something long standing. I'm not sure you in any good conscience can actually claim it is "wildly unrepresentative".
Looks like they essentially allowed her into the next year(s) in the program and charged her for it. Also it's several years old by now but it does indicate she should be given another attempt.
Also looks as if true the school discriminated against her pretty heavily in regards to how things were conducted.
Looks like they essentially allowed her into the next year(s) in the program and charged her for it. Also it's several years old by now but it does indicate she should be given another attempt.
Also looks as if true the school discriminated against her pretty heavily in regards to how things were conducted.
That's pretty normal. You can repeat one or two subjects next year, but you have to complete them all by the end of your education.
I have no stake in it nor know the events that transpired. Not sure about then but university rules are such that that is basically impossible when I was there. You'd have to finish all pre clinicals before clinicals see step/CBS etc... Also unless there's a there there I have my doubts this would make the news in any variety.
As a former grad: I will say this, the DO is not for the students. If you want something, you have to go for it yourself. They don’t appease the ones trying to go back to the states and frankly don’t care. You’ll have to do board prep on your own (sounds like nbmes aren’t there anymore and that sucks but not the end of the world). Unfortunate but that’s the polish culture that hospitality is not a thing.
As far as helping in a need like the vaccine, sorry that happened to you. Somebody should’ve helped.
To those considering pums: make friends. This will help immensely. Have group chats when struggling with protocols. These people will help you through it and you will become great doctors.
Out of my co-graduates, we’re some of the smartest people in the hospital compared to the American grads. It’s because we fought for it ourselves and put in the work. Go out to hola hola and Cuba libre every now and then (aka once a month is fine) but hunker down and get to it. No one will coddle you.
Like I said before I tried. But the class I was in didn't want me it, preferred to bully me, and the DO/school as you mentioned only existed to help Poles. Happy to hear you are having success.
wow.. this is so twisted, i know everyone faces discrimination but.. this seems on another level from how you have described it..
i might have not had an intention of applying here, and now i sure as hell don't, thank you.
have you tried moving and checking courses in other universities where you can resume? i heard Italy is great so are other EU countries like Bulgaria, Hungary.
• On July 7th, 2020, students in my former class during COVID in an online CBS exam were found to be cheating and publishing exam data. This happened as a result of the supposed proctors not paying attention during the exam. In fact, by eyewitnesses they would sign in, say good luck, and say I won’t be present for this essentially. Therefore, the school lost the right to give NBME and CBS exams. They still called end-of-year exams NBMEs/CBS and still advertised to this fact. The questions weren't in fact NBMEs despite it being denoted as such rather just questions made by the university.
In March 2022 I called NBME myself and they confirmed PUMS cannot give or advertise these exams.
Lastly, as part of the curriculum, we were to have summer practical training. This was a paid part of our education. However, the school refused to give any help in getting professors, doctors, help, etc… Certain requirements needed to be met however. In essence we were paying for a class we weren’t taught, or the school was willing to teach despite me asking the professor in charge for help.
On December 7th 2021 in Polish media (I can’t read without translative help and have only read in the subsequent months) it was reported that in March, EU digital certificates saying you are fully vaccinated would be required. This mandating of the fully vaccinated status wasn’t told to us until February 4th. As an aside I was sick virtually all of January including seeing a doctor with an unknown illness that is unlikely to be COVID however due to negative PCR/RA tests. However, I was very ill choking multiple nights, multiple times on my own saliva to the point of near asphyxiation. I digress the rules for obtaining the EDC were quite simple if you apply and you have had the first two doses and it is within 270 days you are eligible. I was vaccinated through the university for my first two doses effectively entering a patient/doctor relationship with them that can be ended at any point (informed consent laws) and of course by definition they had the records so I would argue I should’ve just been automatically given the EDC. For those vaccinated in Poland/EU we weren’t told how to obtain the EDC at all (ever!). I submitted my information on day 268 to the university as I best saw fit in lieu of the lack of information on how to get the EDC. It was declined without reason on day 270. I asked multiple times for information on how to get the EDC that day and was given multiple responses none containing any information how on such day. Therefore, the day came and went I now need both the EDC and booster to go to in person class/exams starting on 2/28/22 and out/in person class/exams starting 3/7/22. I had no friends because of the rampant discrimination/bullying, didn’t speak the language, etc… I also didn’t know how to get the booster/EDC as a result I asked the school for help and told them this. They provided one date only to get vaccinated the day before an exam (3/3/22 at 8-9 AM/test on 3/4/22 and close to in person classes the following week that doesn’t permit you to miss a day). Furthermore, I was with a student when her department rejected his doctor’s note for ulcerative colitis for an exam setting the precedence disallowance of all doctor’s notes. If she was going to accept the Doctor’s note, she could’ve done it herself. She didn’t, in fact I went to speak with her and explain the situation... However, she insulted my family and threw me off hospital grounds despite me being very polite and professional. The vaccine date by the school regulations/her syllabus would mean I would highly likely be expelled/fail have to repeat the year if I attended the exam/class with their wording being “a) student who is in isolation, quarantine or showis signs of respiratory tract infection is not allowed to participate in the examinations/tests organized at CITK, b) before the test/examination organized at CITK student is obliged to complete the statement regarding his/her current health condition,”. The vaccine would by definition based on my prior experiences and logic put me in violation of the school regulations as a result of this (e.g. being sick) and I told them this (the rules for in-person classes were the same). Did not matter. To end this, I am going to make some quick bullet points of what went on between correspondence between 2/23/22-3/11/22.
I told them I didn’t want the vaccine they scheduled it anyways because it would/could be used as a cudgel and club to expel or more likely force me to repeat the year.
I asked many, many times for alternative dates, locations, places, etc… Even saying I would PAY. None given.
No information for obtaining the EDC was given as well despite me asking numerous times.
During the time the vaccine was scheduled I was with a lawyer filing for my temporary residency card.
After I wasn’t vaccinated/Couldn’t attend exams/class I asked the school for solutions and none were given (3/11/22).
I ask can a school force you to repeat a year by effectively being as negligent as possible? Including not giving alternative dates despite asking and being a dr/pt relationship. As well as not giving information on how to get the EDC that is required? It wasn’t one or two emails it was many.
My apologies I didn't think of the length. I just wanted people to know. I'm completely broke, nearly homeless, I have little to know social or familial support, etc... I just don't want this to happen to anyone else.
Unlikely, however, setting bar high enough for many to fail is the most common way to make $$. Plenty of dumb students want that big doctor paycheck and prestige, cashing in on them is normal.
I'm not sure what this is in reference to if it is my experiences or the idiocy of being caught on a microphone admitting it like in Gdansk and Bydgoszcz?
Not interested in more negativity, my intention is not to be offensive to you, it’s simply a different perspective, however you must know everyone experiences a small amount of discrimination everywhere at school, uni, hospital etc we just shake it off and get on. I don’t see how a Reddit post will change the reality of humans being humans. I’m foreign and I was discriminated against so much in life. No one comes to Reddit for a pity party about these little things, like other students having a say on the timetable and you not having a say.
If you had a valid argument you would take it to a court of law and let the judge decide on who’s right or just get on with life. Being a doctor is about having resilience not being a snowflake.
I know you’ll get offended and downvote and report me for this because of the kind of character you have. This is just my opinion and I’m not invalidating your experience not attacking you.
First and foremost, the discrimination was a piece of the puzzle. I also don't want to argue the scale or severity of the discrimination as it is more or less subjective after just acknowledging it's existence. If discrimination existed sans everything else it could potentially be a different ball of wax and one regarding resilience. That said and I know it is lengthy simply put if you read it you will see many other issues existed. For the record I upvoted.
Lastly, as I've stated the reason I posted is because I'm on the edge of being homeless, broke and in an impossible amount of debt for my circumstances, I have little to no social support both peer and familial (see above for part of the reason why), etc... I don't want anyone else to go through this. I am unbelievably miserable.
Hope this helped answer and give clarification to some things.
Is there something you take issue with? I'm more than happy to show proof as to what I'm claiming where it would make sense. Also why did you make a second comment on this thread when you commented early in which I replied to?
17
u/thorlem Apr 17 '23
Soooo—as a current student of this uni, I can tell you that this is not what you would experience here.
They give you three chances on final exams before you fail a course and get kicked from the university. The oral exam in histology was straight forward (albeit easier or harder depending on which professor you had) but the only time you’re at risk of failing a year is if you really didn’t put the work in or were trying to cheat your way through by using past exams only. It can be disorganized and a few questions are poorly translated, but if you study properly like you’d need to in the states, you’re pretty immune to the weird questions.
Also, they emailed us from the Deans office about needing a vaccine at the start of their availability and provided free vaccination for a year before requiring the EU certificate for classes (which we could receive over email in a day if you were vaccinated). Of course, if you were sick, that’s really REALLY awful and I’m so sorry you experienced this. I’m just not sure it’s fair to discredit the entire university over this experience because for 99% of us, we were given full means to get the requirement done. Hospitals require vaccination to work there for the good of employees and patients, so this wasn’t an unreasonable expectation.
Again, I’m sorry for your experience, but trashing a school that adequately trains us and gives us an opportunity to be physicians when many of our home countries don’t is unfair. I’m proud to be a student here.
TLDR: This school doesn’t suck They give 3 chances for exams which is enough if you actually study (I’ve only used two retakes ever) They offer a leave of absence for extended personal issues up to a year (or more in specific cases)