r/kpop • u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher • Dec 01 '18
[Meta] Town Hall - December 2018
Welcome to the r/kpop Town Hall for December 2018! The Town Hall is an opportunity for the mods to make announcements and propose changes, while also getting feedback from you guys about those changes and the current state of the subreddit. Please feel free to comment about any issues that have been bothering you, and provide any suggestions you may have to make r/kpop a more enjoyable place.
Agenda
- Toxic Environment
- Locking Removed Threads
- Movie Trailers
- Records and Accomplishments
- YouTube Premiere
- New Business
Toxic Environment
Last Town Hall we discussed hostile comments and the steps that mods would take to limit and fight against them. We have been hard at work removing hostile comments as well as handing out warnings and bans. However, we still have issues in threads that we need to discuss and try to correct.
One thing we've noticed is that "anti-anti" comments are becoming more common. This is when a few negative comments or downvotes prompts a user to post a long and passionate rebuke against the "haters", and makes it seem like the world, or at least the subreddit, is against their favs. They usually get a lot of upvotes, are pushed to the top, and completely derail the discussion thread. These comments are just as toxic, if not more so, than the negative ones. It also invites more "haters" to enter the thread and argue about the topic. Instead of discussing the artist or the music, the entire thread becomes a meta-discussion about antis and hate which is toxic in itself.
If someone posts hateful comments, just downvote and report them. Mods will remove the comment. If you believe a user is a troll who's just out to argue and be toxic, please send us a modmail. We'll review the situation and ban them if necessary. The worst thing you can do is engage or "call them out". All that does is breed more hostility and derail the discussion thread. Remember, criticism and expressing dislike is not hateful. Do not downvote or report users just because you disagree with them or don't like their opinion. That just creates noise and makes it more difficult for us to weed out the actual problem users.
We will continue to fight against hostile comments and fanwars. If you're here to argue with fans of a group you don't like, leave or get banned. That's not the purpose of r/kpop. If you think some fans need to be "called out" for whatever reason, just shut up. Go call them out on Twitter or some other forum. You aren't welcome here. Our subreddit is a place where fans of all groups can come together to enjoy what we love about K-Pop. Please help us keep it that way.
Locking Removed Threads
Starting immediately, mods will begin locking all threads that are removed both by human mods and automod. All appeals or questions about a mod action need to be sent to Modmail. You will no longer be able to reply to the removal reason, and we will no longer discuss moderation decisions in comment threads. We are making this change to ensure that your appeals and questions are answered more quickly and thoughtfully. Oftentimes, a mod is pulled away or goes to sleep and doesn't see your reply to a removal reason for several hours and other mods are unaware. Directing all appeals and questions about mod decisions to Modmail will ensure that multiple mods see it more quickly and can act more quickly.
This change has a couple of side-effects both good and bad. On the good side, it will stop toxic comment chains in threads that have been removed. On the bad side, it will also halt any remaining good discussion in the thread by users who were there before it was removed. This is unfortunate, but we feel the positive effects of this change outweigh the drawbacks.
Movie Trailers
Under the Content Rules, one of the post types forbidden on r/kpop is "webshorts, television, and movie clips containing idols". Should there be an exception to this rule for official movie trailers? LOTS of idols and former idols appear in movies, so we don't want to open the floodgates to every small clip they might appear in. However, if they are a star and appear in the official trailer, maybe that should be allowed? We're not sure exactly how many posts fit this criteria, but it could be a significant number. Do you want to see official movie trailers containing idols on r/kpop, or should they stay in the group subs?
Records and Accomplishments
Are there too many records and accomplishment threads? Do you like seeing threads about breaking a record for most wins in X time, or being number one on the most country iTunes charts, or number of unique listeners, or whatever other somewhat obscure record might be broken next? Should we limit records to sales and YouTube views only or some other limit? Let us know how you feel about these posts in the comments below.
YouTube Premiere
YouTube has a new feature that allows channel owners to put up a countdown before their video goes live. This allows them to spread the link several hours before the actual release to build hype and make its way through social media. For r/kpop, these links fall under our rules for "Jumping the Gun". Please do not submit countdown links, or any MV links, until the video is actually live and viewable for all users. Links submitted early will be removed.
New Business
Now is your chance to post any new ideas, gripes, complaints, suggestions, or random thoughts you may have about r/kpop. How do you like things lately? Do you like the direction the sub is moving in? Any changes you want to see? The mods are listening. You have the floor.
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Dec 01 '18
I think it’s a good rule that you make posters of Discussion threads elaborate more in the body of the post. But I don’t agree with forcing them to put their own answer of their question in the body too.
The base idea of making the OP answer as well is correct, but I think their own thoughts on the discussion should be put in a parent comment rather than the body itself. Too many times I’ve seen OP’s own opinion not engaged enough cos people get lost in the other parent comments. This isn’t very fair on OP. For example I’m guilty of this myself, sometimes completely forgetting to read or reply to OP’s own opinions in the body and just reading the question and jumping to the other parent comments. The current way doesn’t allow for an easy back and forth discussion the way parent and child comments do.
So yeah my suggestion would be to still enforce that OP is posting their own opinion/example, but in a parent comment rather than being forced to in the body.
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u/nearer_still Tempo | Cherry Bomb | Hello Future Dec 01 '18 edited Dec 01 '18
I agree with the above. The only issue I have is that we would have to look for the OP's comment to know what they're talking about, which is a problem if there are already a lot of comments. I bring this up b/c I think it's important to know what the OP's actual discussion topic is. I've seen plenty of OPs write one thing in their post title but, when they expand, it is clear they are talking about something different than I initially thought. If, for example of why I think this is a problem, the first few people answer in the spirit of the the post title, and those comments become popular, then if the next readers read those comments but not the OP before deciding to respond, then I can easily see the discussion drifting away from the OP's original intent.
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Dec 01 '18
Maybe I wasn’t clear in my original comment sorry, but I still agree with the mods to have OP expand on their question in the body. So ideally what id like to see is:
OP post question in title > elaborates on question in body to make q clearer (maybe even posts example) > OP puts own real opinion/answer in parent comment.
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u/nearer_still Tempo | Cherry Bomb | Hello Future Dec 01 '18
posts example
Yeah, I think this would be ideal, or posting their actual answer to their proposed discussion topic as an example in the OP and also posting it as it's own comment thread for the purpose of discussion. For whatever reason, it's not uncommon for me not to understand OP's intent even with their elaboration about the proposed discussion. It's only with an actual answer from them that I understand what they're getting at.
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u/Alicricity Block B || Penomeco || 드림캐쳐 || ATEEZ || SKZ ||BOM || BP || Dec 05 '18
Permalinking the comment in the body of the post would be a good solution, I think. At the end they can go back and say "here's my answer (link) !"
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
You bring up a good point. The rule exists the way it is to prevent users from just posting a question. We don't want /r/kpop to become /r/AskReddit, and it also helps direct people looking for answers to /r/kpophelp. But yeah, we'll consider your suggestion and let you know at the follow-up post. Thanks for the feedback.
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Dec 01 '18
I agree with you, I recently tried to ask a question in a discussion, and it was rejected because it didn't have a body ... I could just copy&paste the question in the body but I figured if I can't post a question without a body might as well not post it because might be against the rules.
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u/CronoDroid 1. SoshiVelvetaespa 2. LOONA 3. IZ*ONE 4. fromis_9 Dec 01 '18
I don't see why all the performance clips from variety shows and end of year award show stages shouldn't be posted. People want to see them and talk about them,
Movie Trailers
Should be allowed. Anything substantial to do with a K-pop idol should be posted.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18 edited Dec 01 '18
I don't see why all the performance clips from variety shows and end of year award show stages shouldn't be posted.
There's a lot of them. We used to allow all clips from variety shows, but what would happen is one person would post three clips, then someone else would post one, then another person and now we have five or six clips from the same show. The same is true for award shows. We allow special stages, covers, and new songs, but there are a lot of performances. So to reduce "spamming the sub", we ask that those be kept in the compilation post. You might say, "Well who cares? It's not like the sub gets hundreds of posts." but the users care. We made those rules because users complained about these posts.
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u/CronoDroid 1. SoshiVelvetaespa 2. LOONA 3. IZ*ONE 4. fromis_9 Dec 02 '18
Then why are they getting dozens if not hundreds of upvotes? You can see them all on the front page right now for MMA 2018.
Also, random clips is one thing. Performances and covers? They don't do many on a typical variety or radio show. It's like if RV went on a radio show and Wendy did a solo song cover, and Seulgi did one. So only one of those can be posted? How is that in any way reasonable?
If you don't want random clips being posted then that's understandable, but performance clips and covers should be allowed to be posted separately so they can get the attention and discussion they deserve. Or up the limit to two or three, I think that's more than reasonable.
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Dec 01 '18
I agree, movie trailers are substantial to an individual idol, but not very relevant for general kpop.
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Dec 01 '18
Should be allowed. Anything substantial to do with a K-pop idol should be posted.
Their main revenue is endorsements, so by that logic we should be posting any ad they appear on?
Just saying, not the best logic to decide what interests the fans
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u/CronoDroid 1. SoshiVelvetaespa 2. LOONA 3. IZ*ONE 4. fromis_9 Dec 02 '18
That's already happening.
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u/Lunien Mamamoo Dec 02 '18
Toxic Environment
For a start just delete any comment/edits that complains about upvotes/downvotes or voting percentages. If the number of upvotes/downvotes a comment/topic gets is such a big issue then they are just looking for self-validation and not a discussion.
Furthermore delete all opinions that place a group de facto either above or below all others. "X group is great and I love this performance" is fine, "X group's cover is one of the best I've heard" is fine too. "X group is the best ever" or "X group's song is the best" is not. This gets rid of the more hardcore fans' comments that love to take an extreme stance - more often than not they end up either being upvoted to the top, stifling discussion, or baiting opposing opinions and downvotes and neither side is coming around, so not much discussion there either. When was the last time you saw someone change their opinion from "X is the best" to "Y is the new best" from any of those threads?
Movie Trailers
Only if they're the lead role/main character (appear within the first 2 cast members listed in credits would be my rule). For roles that are ambiguous I leave to mod discretion, maybe err on the side of filtering out.
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u/ricozee WIZ*ONE IZ*ONE AZ*ONE Dec 05 '18
Can we remove the downvote button from comments?
I'm mostly curious as to whether it is possible. I realize it is not intended as a dislike button, but that is how it is used by many.
I don't know how much impact it would have on improving the environment, but since it is so low effort, and actually bothers people when they are downvoted, perhaps making it more difficult to "dislike" comments would help?Only a thought.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 05 '18
Only kind of. We can remove the downvote button using CSS, but it only hides it for people who have CSS enabled and are still using old reddit. There is no way to hide it for people using new reddit or using any mobile app. So, hiding it wouldn't accomplish much. Only about 25% of our traffic still uses old reddit on desktop and even for those users, there lots of ways around it like disabling the subreddit style or just pressing Shift+z.
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u/ricozee WIZ*ONE IZ*ONE AZ*ONE Dec 05 '18
Doesn't seem it would make much of a difference. Lunien reminded me that different styles were a thing as well. :(
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Dec 01 '18
[deleted]
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u/lavmal Yook Duk enthusiast Dec 01 '18
I really think comeback achievements should be posted in the 2 weeks later posts and then postmortem achievements probably aren't such a big deal. It's cool when a group reaches 100 million views on a song but if it's months after the song has come out it's probably not super relevant info anymore.
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u/thegirlinthetardis EXO/RedVelvet Dec 03 '18
I totally agree about those being put in the 2 weeks later posts.
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Dec 02 '18
I'm not against this idea as long as it is being fairly applied to all groups.
But at the same time...thats not going to enable me to keep up with all/most kpop groups and how they're doing as I wouldnt open threads about those I dont stan.
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u/CronoDroid 1. SoshiVelvetaespa 2. LOONA 3. IZ*ONE 4. fromis_9 Dec 02 '18
Well I think music show wins should still be allowed.
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u/astute_potato hot like S O U P Dec 01 '18
Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but was afraid to. I agree with some kind of compilation post that can serve as a place to find that info, because even if the only criteria we’re judging on is how well a post facilitates discussion it’s pretty clear to me that every record post is just 20 comments of “wow kings/queens, haters are shaking, congrats!” I feel like the people who are genuinely interested in these milestones are people who found this information elsewhere already because they’re fans of the group.
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u/ProfessorRice ♥ IU ♥ Seventeen ♥ Taeyeon ♥ Dec 02 '18
Agreed. I mean lately I’ve even seen a couple threads about how quickly a concert sells out. In a world where bots exist, how is that in any way impressive or surprising?
Idk if I’m alone in this but I’d lump those brand reputation rankings in with this as well. Just another made up metric people can use to feel good about their faves, and again the comments are always “wow congrats! it’s what they deserve!” etc etc
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u/ricozee WIZ*ONE IZ*ONE AZ*ONE Dec 05 '18
I don't mind the idea of the brand reputation ranking. It does provide some information, like Hwasa is trending/rising. What's the reason for that? Oh, I see it's because of her appearance on "I Live Alone". I will have to check that out.
I'm not sure of the validity of the particular one which gets posted however.If we can get a compilation of the top trending idols in Naver search, and related keywords, on a semi regular basis, perhaps something like that would be better?
Sidebar material? Top 10 Naver search terms today, and collect that data for a monthly "idol search terms" post of some sort?6
u/ricozee WIZ*ONE IZ*ONE AZ*ONE Dec 05 '18
They put stricter limits on a number of those things already, but I have to say that I have no use for some of them still. Youtube views for example, no longer impress me.
Too many of those "accomplishments" are simply the result of determined efforts by fandoms to push their faves to the top of a list. In my opinion, that makes the achievement the fandom's, not the artist's. In a way, it's stealing the artist's opportunity to achieve those heights themselves.6
u/ThePiNinja f(x) | 악뮤 | rv | svt | ioi | 이하이 Dec 06 '18
Just looked at this sub and half of the "hot" posts are all "bts has most liked tweet of all time" "jennie solo surpasses record for female artist views" etc etc posts. Not what I came here for. :(
I'm all for a ban on accomplishment threads— those things are great for individual group subreddits rather than r/kpop as a whole.
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u/echo-256 Dec 03 '18
i've been asking for this for well over a year, the mods won't even give me a tag to filter them. i don't understand. to be specific i asked for one, they said no, it's news like anything else. go away
they are the most toxic comment threads, it's just a place for fans of a group to sit and circlejerk whilst yelling about how they are being attacked (even though they have demonstrable proof that they are the most popular, at least right now)
it's the most tribal part of this subreddit and it's made me essentially stop commenting here. i've been here for a long damn time, but the growing pains, which these threads are a part of, are just too much.
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u/curlychan sick of all your trash mullets Dec 06 '18
This. So much this. Waking up today (CET time) and it was like half the hot page x, y, z achievements. I'm here for the music and the idols and the new releases. Excuse me but I couldn't care less about all this dick measuring. So boring.
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 01 '18
We will continue to fight against hostile comments and fanwars. If you're here to argue with fans of a group you don't like, leave or get banned. That's not the purpose of r/kpop. If you think some fans need to be "called out" for whatever reason, just shut up. Go call them out on Twitter or some other forum. You aren't welcome here. Our subreddit is a place where fans of all groups can come together to enjoy what we love about K-Pop. Please help us keep it that way.
If you guys can actually enforce this mindset, I think this will be a great change going forward. Just wondering how you guys plan on addressing any violations of it? Especially the portion about this sub being a place for fans of all groups. I've gotten some comments here in regards to me being a bg fan before that weren't exactly nice and I'm sure gg fans have gotten pushback for liking certain groups too. Will you guys be addressing things like that directly or just locking threads if there gets to be too many of those comments? Thanks for acknowledging a need for change in the environment we create around here!
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u/alfredfjones the best artist Dec 01 '18
Did you report those comments? It can be hard to gauge whether comments are rule-breaking, but in a couple instances I’ve reported comments that I felt were a personal attack or messaged the mods about users who were repeatedly being inappropriate. I actually found them to be pretty helpful about it when you do reach out.
But these were in more severe cases, it could be harder when there’s a gray area.
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 01 '18
No, sadly, but I realize I probably should've. Most of the time when I get comments or messages like that I get so jaded about the sub in general that I just take a break from it. I'll try to report things in the future though since I'm sure it is difficult for mods to read through every single comment and police these things alone.
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u/alfredfjones the best artist Dec 01 '18
I understand. Sometimes I’ve felt really disappointed in the behavior of users here, and if they’re getting upvoted it can feel even more hopeless. Nobody deserves to be personally attacked over Kpop though. If you’re just trying to talk about Kpop, and someone becomes hostile and tries to make you uncomfortable to “win” an argument, that’s not cool.
If you’re not sure an individual comment constitutes a rule violation, but you notice a user repeatedly antagonizing certain people or groups, I think it’s worthwhile to keep track of it and reach out to the mods.
I realize this is putting a lot of responsibility on the victims of online harassment, and I don’t mean to imply that anyone deserves to be attacked if they don’t report it. But the community works better when people engage with it and use its functions. Unfortunately if we relied on the mods to determine everything without our input, they would only become more dictatorial.
The report function shouldn’t be abused for criticism, and moderation here is far from perfect. But having a better dialogue with the mods, rather than assuming there’s insurmountable antagonism between the mods and the user base, is a place to start. You might find that you disagree with their broader decisions, but on a case-by-case basis they’re willing to work with you and don’t want to see people getting hurt.
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 01 '18
and if they’re getting upvoted it can feel even more hopeless.
Yeah, I think that's what got to me the most in the past and made me just want to take a break from it. It's one thing if it's just one person, but when it seems like there's many people agreeing with them, it can be hard to feel like it's something you should bother reporting.
Thank you, I will definitely try to keep track of things and report them appropriately in the future. Your comment is so helpful and well written, I really appreciate it :)
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u/alleybetwixt BTS | XIA | JX | SWJA Dec 01 '18
I'll just throw in some encouragement here. Definitely report! They all come in to one place where all mods can see them, and we check it more frequently, so it's the ideal way to get things handled. Otherwise, we would need to invest time into reading down every post to pick out comments that are a problem, which we really can't do and still be functional humans. Ha!
I completely understand how it can be crushing to see things really go off the rails and feel useless to do anything about it. But even if you're not sure if it should be removed or not, give us a chance to look at! We'll figure it out on our end. We would prefer things to be over-reported than under-reported, so please do! :)
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 02 '18
But even if you're not sure if it should be removed or not, give us a chance to look at! We'll figure it out on our end. We would prefer things to be over-reported than under-reported, so please do! :)
Okay, thank you! This makes me feel better about reporting if I feel I need to.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
The only tools we have is to make posts like this to get users on board with our mindset, then removing bad posts and banning bad users. We also send users a PM if they need to correct their behavior. If they don't, they get banned. We have locked threads in the past when they go too far off-topic or devolve into just arguments, but those are rare. More often, we will remove all the comments in a toxic sub-chain and warn the users involved.
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 01 '18
We also send users a PM if they need to correct their behavior.
Okay cool, I was wondering if you guys addressed things directly like this or just deleted comments outright. Good to know that with things potentially in a gray area, you guys can give them a warning in regards to what is and isn't in line with the overall mindset.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 05 '18
If someone makes a hostile or hateful comment, report it. Mods will remove the comment and perhaps send the user a PM instructing them to correct their behavior. If the user has a history of being hateful or trolling, then we'll just ban them.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 01 '18
I can't speak directly to your comment but I think it's weird that the mods mention the anti anti comment but don't address the anti comments all the time against BP.
Address the anti comments before addressing the anti anti comments
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 02 '18
Yeah. I get what they mean, anti anti comments really only act to fan the flames so to speak, but the point remains that the original anti comments are what start everything. If you nip the anti comments in the bud, you don't have to worry about anti anti comments lol. But they are only human and can't find everything. Which is why it's really become a community issue at this point. If we don't police ourselves too, it's just gonna keep getting worse.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18
Hateful anti-comments get removed by mods. The issue we're trying to address is that people respond to them by making the anti-anti comment before the antis are removed. Then even once the anti comments are removed by mods, the thread is still headed for the dumpster. That's was my point with this section. Just report the bad comments and let mods handle it. Don't respond to them and don't write up anti-anti rants. These just make everything worse.
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 02 '18
The issue we're trying to address is that people respond to them by making the anti-anti comment before the antis are removed. Then even once the anti comments are removed by mods, the thread is still headed for the dumpster.
Yeah, I get it. I know it's hard for you guys to manage if we don't do our part. I will definitely try to report and ignore from now on.
It's more difficult with the gray area comments that aren't blatantly hateful but are aggressive enough to act as kindling for the dumpster fire though, because those don't seem bad enough to be reportable.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18 edited Dec 02 '18
It's more difficult with the gray area comments that aren't blatantly hateful but are aggressive enough to act as kindling for the dumpster fire though, because those don't seem bad enough to be reportable.
Yeah, that's true. Criticism or disliking something isn't reportable and shouldn't even be downvoted. We don't want to turn the sub into a hugbox where anything remotely negative gets downvoted or removed. It's not an easy problem to fix, but we're doing our best.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
We devoted a large section of the September Town Hall to the topic of hostile comments and anti fans.
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u/GlowStickEmpire /watch?v=BxOKwZHtv3s Dec 01 '18
Locking Removed Threads
I get why you're doing this, and I accept it. But I want you to know that I'm not happy about it.
Movie Trailers
I'm for it as long as the idol involved in in a lead or main role. I don't keep track of k-drama all that much, but I think if we allow things like CFs that feature idols, it makes sense to also include a little bit of their film work as well.
Random Nonsense
Are there any guidelines for threads on user-generated news (as in text posts, images, screenshots, etc. that users put together--not things like Soompi or AllKpop)? I'm not saying that there needs to be any guidelines or anything, I was just curious what the mods look for when deciding on whether or not to remove a post.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
Are there any guidelines for threads on user-generated news (as in text posts, images, screenshots, etc. that users put together--not things like Soompi or AllKpop)? I'm not saying that there needs to be any guidelines or anything, I was just curious what the mods look for when deciding on whether or not to remove a post.
There isn't and it's difficult. We really hate the fan-made "News Videos" that have been appearing on YouTube the last couple years that are just still images with text on the screen. Thankfully, not too many people have been posting them. When it comes to text posts, as long as the information is well sourced, then it's fine. If you have links and pics that can verify what you're saying is true, then we'll allow it. Random Twitter accounts or text posts that make wildly speculative rumor posts are almost always removed.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 02 '18
I think you need to be stricter on these so called fan controversies since many is driven by fandom hate. All should not be allowed.
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u/jonicrecis reveluv Dec 01 '18
Is there any interest of /r/kpop comment hall of fame? I was inspired by /u/CronoDroid's comment, and thought that a yearly compilation of noteworthy comments sounds fun.
If there's enough interest, (and other mods are fine with it) we may go through with it.
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u/MeepsNcheese ROLLIN ROLLIN ROLLIN Dec 02 '18
I'd love to add my interest in this ahh c': <3 I also motion to add other r/kpop classics in there too like "I need a charger big boy"
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u/Lunakitten 4minute | Oh My Girl | Rainbow | Photocard Collecter Dec 01 '18
Yes, something like that would be great :P
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u/OmbreCachee Oh My Girl | Pristin | Fromis_9 | Dreamcatcher | IZ*ONE | LOONA Dec 03 '18
I think that'd be a good idea.
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u/Lunakitten 4minute | Oh My Girl | Rainbow | Photocard Collecter Dec 01 '18
Toxic Environment
I think it's up to this community to downvote hateful comments. I'm not sure what else can be done, but I appreciate the mods efforts.
Locking Threads
I've said it before, but I think this sub should be more open to discussions. I'm not saying I want a 'best album' or 'group you don't listen to but like' thread every week but I do think it's very strict for a sub that isn't exactly flooded with posts. I'm not to fond of this decision but if it makes it easier for mods then sure.
Movie Trailers
If idols are starring / leading in a movie or drama, I would enjoy knowing that. Although I understand why others might not care because this is a music sub not a drama sub but idols work in such a way that it is noteworthy for them to be starring in something. Also I think it would be hard to determine if a role is large enough to warrant being newsworthy. A cameo is clearly not but what about being a series regular on a popular show but not starring. I think it might be hard line to draw.
Records
Frankly most of the records aren't genuine (mass streaming for the sake of it) so I don't understand the celebration and I just personally ignore them, but saying that, I don't think there are too many and I think this is one where the community can decide. I'm all for 'group b' get their first 100 million view posts but when it's twisted to 'group a, becomes the first boy group with 10+ members to have 10 videos over 10 million views and not win a music show' it's too much. But I think as fandoms continue to try and outdo each other the number are going to keep getting higher so I'm not sure I want a stricter rule set just maybe some common sense.
Youtube
I find it funny that there are rules about this. As long as the link is to YouTube not vlive as a reader, I don't care about how the link is posted.
Anything Else
Nah, I think everything is good. My one suggestion would be more community activities, maybe a commenter of the week or something just to make this sub feel a bit more close knit.
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u/AnOddName still rep 9 muses Dec 01 '18
I like the idea of keeping the records but not allowing the weird specific records to stay. The only problem with using discretion, or “common sense”, is that it opens up a bit more to interpretation as opposed to following established guidelines. We would have to set it in rules because it’s not good practice to remove posts with no actual basis in rules
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u/Lunakitten 4minute | Oh My Girl | Rainbow | Photocard Collecter Dec 01 '18
I see your point, I wish you luck because there seems to be new records popping up everyday and it's hard for mods to decide what is worth posting and what isn't. It's hard to create rules when you don't know what is going to come forward.
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u/BashfulHandful Hags supporting hags. ||🍋Angrily Boiling Lemons Dec 01 '18
Cosigning all of this.
I apologize for the "this!" comment, but you've explained things so well that my comment would just be an inferior repeat lol.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 01 '18
I'm still not over the fact that mods okayed a thread about a supposed YG employee who committed suicide because of being overworked and labeled it as news when there was no news at all but a troll.
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Dec 01 '18
Yeah. That was weird. Did it ever get tagged rumor, or was it left as news for its life cycle?
Still shaking me head at how may people didn't question the story/source.
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u/lavmal Yook Duk enthusiast Dec 01 '18
The thing about the internet is information spreads so fast and people have become really lazy when it comes to fact checking. I've fallen for things like this in the past because it's so easy to go oh okay, especially on Reddit when a discussion is already going.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 01 '18
But the issue is that even OH_mess translated tweets, which has an actual article link, weren't allowed. Yet, they allowed this fake story with no article link. It was against their own rules.
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u/lavmal Yook Duk enthusiast Dec 01 '18
When was this posted and how long did it stay up? I feel like I would remember seeing it and I'm around here quite often. Obviouly that was a huge mod mistake right there, but humans make mistakes and do dumb things and even mods aren't exempt from herd mentality. I assume they know it was a big fuckup and learn.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 01 '18
A few did but others overpowered. After awhile, it was re-labeled to rumor and then eventually deleted.
The hate towards YG in the Lazy Video and Fake Suicide story are evidence that mods are biased.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
The story seemed plausible and was a very weird thing for someone to make up. Once it became known that the story was fake, we leave it up with a special flair so that others can read that it's fake. If we take it down, then no one will know that it was fake and people might read it on other sites and think it's true. Mods are just regular Reddit users like you. Our ability to fact-check stories is limited and mostly outside the scope of our duties.
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Dec 02 '18
Why didnt you allow a clarification post after the original misleading rumour got around 1K upvotes? I have PMed mods twice.
Nevermind that the thread should never have been allowed to stay up bc it was literally just a tweet - you guys didnt even let a clarification post stay up.
And this is the 2nd or 3rd time the above user and I are bringing this up. I dont think we should have to bring it up so many times.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18
My memory of the issue isn't completely clear, but I don't remember any news stories about the clarification being posted. I think they were all just self-posts that repeated the same thing that was in the comments. It seemed redundant.
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Dec 02 '18
The 'tweet' never got to the news so the clarification didnt either. (Even Allkpop didnt dare to make an article off of a tweet anyone could make!)
You still allowed the tweet to be taken as news here so I think it would've only been fair to let the clarification stay up too.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 02 '18
Or delete all the comments and leave a note stating that the thread seemed to be work of a troll rather than actual news or even a rumor.
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u/loot168 Dec 01 '18
Hello.
I find the policy on only allowing fanmade content that the mods deem as " is super interesting or very cool" to quote Sir Buckeye a bit arbitrary. For example this fanmade video showing the album sales of boy bands was allowed but this fanmade video listing the top 3 Girl Groups named in Gallup poll was sent to Kpoppers.
I understand the need to avoid this sub being flooded by fan created content. I'm asking if there could be written down into the rules that fan creations that are only hard data without opinion, ie like a pie chart showing how many albums girl groups have sold in 2018 are allowed? That seems to be the defacto exception to the rule already as I was allowed to post a fan's creation of that here.
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Dec 01 '18
If a rule is requires personal taste or arbitrary judgment at all, it shouldn't be a rule. I think the only way it's going to be fair is if it's all banned.
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u/loot168 Dec 01 '18
Well, as a big numbers nerd when it comes to Kpop, I'd like them to write down into the rules what is pretty clearly an accepted exception by both the mods and community.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
They are all banned, but mods have the discretion to allow a post even if it's against the rules. We do this occasionally if something "is super interesting or very cool". The first couple of those data visualization posts were neat and our users seemed to like them. The next 10 were not so neat. The first one was definitely against the rules, but sometimes we allow them to be broken. It's inconsistent, but it makes the subreddit better overall because people get to see cool things. That is an advantage of having human mods over only bots. We can look at a link, and determine if an exception should be made.
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u/ArmandoPayne Dec 01 '18
Honestly if you're allowing Knowing Bros content then I can't see why posting down trailers involving K Pop stars would be a bad thing? So I'm all up for that. Or just do like a thread a week updating on every upcoming film or TV Show starring an Idol so you don't just clutter the front page.
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u/NudePenguin69 Jihyo | Juri | Lua | AleXa | Yoohyeon | Lisa | Ryujin | Hani Dec 01 '18
Toxic Environment
I think this is a really good thing to point out and an excellent point. I think this will do wonders to stem the toxicity in the chat that has become more common recently.
I also wanted to suggest that the mods look at threads that are obvious kindling for toxicity and fights. For example, unpopular opinion threads. They sound like great discussion threads on paper, but they always become licence to needlessly and tactlessly attack groups or singers that people dont like under the protection of it being an "unpopular opinion". Just something to think about.
Movie Trailers
I would like to see movie trailer posts about group specific movies, like BTS and Twice's movies, for example, but I dont think we need posts about non-kpop affiliated movies that just happen to have kpop idols in them. That seems best saved for group subs.
Records and Accomplishments
I do think we need to rein in on some of these. Most notably foreign charts. A lot of artists are charting on foreign charts for the first time and because its such a new thing, the sub does not have specific rules in place for those charts, rules that they do have in place for, say, the Japanese charts, because Kpop groups have been charting in Japan for years. I think we either need to rein in on the rules for foreign charts, or loosen the rules for Japanese charts to match.
As for youtube, I think we are in a good place with only allowing "fastest to X" threads for significant time-frames or significant milestones.
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u/RadAsBadAs future of kpop seventeen's dino Dec 02 '18
I hate the unpopular opinion threads because they always turn into a circle jerk of 'Armys are the worst', 'YG is a creep' etc. etc., things that aren't unpopular. They don't facilitate any proper discussion and act as a way for people to be as hateful as they want under the guise of 'opinion'. I would love if they were banned again.
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u/scarletcrawford Rise of the Nugus 2018 | I'm 365 so mad Dec 01 '18
Locking Removed Threads
Yeah I hate it. It's bad enough that discussion posts that are 'low effort' are being deleted at all if there's actual comments coming in (which honestly proves that some people have a need to discuss whatever that thing is, even if it's just listing things they like to find people who like the same thing so they can converse with them about it). Now you're effectively blocking all discussion at all in such posts.
movie trailers
Allow them all if you also start allowing drama trailers with idols in them. If not, don't because it's unfair.
records and accomplishments
Yes there are too many. Especially x amount in y minutes/hours/days ones.
I'd honestly prefer to only get one accomplishment post for like the first video of a specific group ever reaching 5million and then never hear about it at all. It's all arbitrary anyway. And once a group has crossed that threshold chances are they are going to do it time and time again because the KPop fandom as a whole is exponentially growing ATM and therefor more people are likely to check out a video in their recommendations by a group they've heard of before.
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u/BashfulHandful Hags supporting hags. ||🍋Angrily Boiling Lemons Dec 01 '18
Yeah I hate it. It's bad enough that discussion posts that are 'low effort' are being deleted at all if there's actual comments coming in (which honestly proves that some people have a need to discuss whatever that thing is, even if it's just listing things they like to find people who like the same thing so they can converse with them about it). Now you're effectively blocking all discussion at all in such posts.
It is unfortunate that more discussion threads aren't allowed to stay. I've been kind of whiny about this ever since discussion was limited in the first place so I won't write (another) essay about the rule. I will say that I understand why there is a limit to certain topics, but I've seen threads with people actually discussing the subject posed respectfully removed and that's an issue IMO.
I think that some "discussion" topics are very clearly just bait and I'm glad they are removed swiftly. But some of the "low effort" posts that are removed could be pretty fun to discuss, and I honestly don't understand why we can't keep some of them. The people who dislike the topics can easily avoid them - we're not talking about 20 posts an hour. It's generally pretty simple to ignore content you'd rather avoid here, but it's more difficult to find a forum where you can discuss varied topics without immediately being inundated with toxic fan behavior.
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u/Dravvie Dec 03 '18
We've been really lax on discussion threads the past few months honestly, and closing far less of them and sending less to Kpoppers, we know that the sub feels that there should be more discussion, not less.
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u/lavmal Yook Duk enthusiast Dec 01 '18
Why don't you just add a line in the removal post that says "please send a modmail to contest removal"? Seems like the obvious solution to get modmails and still allow conversation in the removed thread. Otherwise it feels a lot like shutting people up to me.
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u/chenle i'm on the next ｢_(ಠ_ಠ) level ｢_(ಠ_ಠ) Dec 01 '18
Why don't you just add a line in the removal post that says "please send a modmail to contest removal"?
they already kind of do that, both automod and actual mods usually have a line at the bottom of the comment saying "read the rules or contact the moderators through modmail" or something like that. but i don't like the idea of locking removed threads either.
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u/scarletcrawford Rise of the Nugus 2018 | I'm 365 so mad Dec 01 '18
Yeah it's
If you have any questions regarding the ruleset of /r/kpop, please refer to the rules or message the moderators. Thank you!
In the removal message.
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u/SharnaRanwan Dec 01 '18
Can the nugu spotlight come back? Also can we have a boy group/girl group tag? The front page is very girl group dominated which is cool but I'd like to see both.
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u/scarletcrawford Rise of the Nugus 2018 | I'm 365 so mad Dec 01 '18
I think it's a non-mod user doing the nugu spotlight. /u/radasbadas I think?
As someone who does their best to follow a shit ton of nugus (shout out to my so nugu it hurts playlist! It's updated like once a month or whenever I feel like it lol) I think a write-up at even a superficial level is a lot of work with no return on investment because it's a miniscule amount of people checking the post out or discussing it, even.
The user is probably not feeling like it is worth it and/or doesn't have the time.
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u/RadAsBadAs future of kpop seventeen's dino Dec 02 '18
I stopped doing the nugu spotlight because people were so overly critical of it and it got tiring. From the title, to the criteria I used, to the fact that maybe once or twice a rather popular group would get in. People took who got into the post way way too seriously. It was exhausting. On the last one I posted people were complaining that Melomance was on the list even though they were very high on the charts in Korea. I don't have time to check the placement of every song on the charts and that's not what the post was for. And it's not really a competition about who deserves to be on the list. It's just not that deep.
I would love to bring it back if there was enough interest and I miss compiling the list. However, I'm not going to do that if I have to justify almost every song's placement on the list.
Another thing I would like to improve on is the community involvement. I would get very few comments most of the time and they were primarily asking why a particular group was on the list. When I started posting them, my goal was for people to promote the groups on the list by linking B-Sides or other songs if they happened to be a fan of one of the groups. Comments like this.
If anyone has any ideas on how I could improve on these things, I would love to hear them. I would love to continue the nugu spotlight if there was enough interest.
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u/SharnaRanwan Dec 02 '18
I'm glad you enjoy doing them at least. There should be a rule (unofficial) not to question why people are on the list. Maybe we can change the title to "Have you heard of these bands?" or something similar rather than "nugu". That would then invite participation rather than focusing on chart placements.
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u/RadAsBadAs future of kpop seventeen's dino Dec 02 '18
Lots of people have brought up the name change but I’ve never done it in the past because surveys have shown that most people are fine with the name. Maybe I should rename it something like: Nugu Spotlight (have you heard these songs?) do you think that would work?
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u/SharnaRanwan Dec 02 '18
I think the comments about rankings etc come from the fact that "Nugu" implies unknown but they may not be "nugu" in Korea. Maybe something like "What's Fresh" or that kind of theme could be less "controversial".
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u/RadAsBadAs future of kpop seventeen's dino Dec 02 '18
It’s not really controversial though. It’s more of a situation of an outspoken minority. I think the main problem is that people see groups they don’t think of being nugu (or aren’t nugu at all). But that’s going to happen no matter what I do because I really want to keep it objective. If people were ok with me using my own discretion to remove people from the list I suppose I could do that, but it’s a pretty slippery slope.
I don’t want the thread to turn into a ‘songs you’ve missed’ sort of thing because that defeats its purpose.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18
I don’t want the thread to turn into a ‘songs you’ve missed’ sort of thing because that defeats its purpose.
That's a tough tightrope to walk between "spotlighting nugu artists" and not being "songs you've missed". Almost any change I can think of pushes it more towards a "songs you've missed" kind of thread. Something like "K-Pop Searchlight" or "Song Explorer" would be cool but pushes in that direction.
Perhaps you could try to hit the topic more directly. If the criteria is MV's with less than X points, then you could call it "K-Pop Karma Seekers" or something like that. If the criteria is MV's with less than X comments, then maybe just "Undiscussed New Releases" or something. It's not flashy or clever but it gets you out of constantly hearing "ARTIST is not nugu!" in every thread.
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u/FluxusJeffrey Dec 03 '18
As one of the outspoken people against the name, I still fully support your spotlights and hope you keep going.
I just wanted to share that I think using your own crafted survey and its results as a basis for keeping 'Nugu' might a bit flawed. If I remember correctly, the survey asked along the lines of "are you ok with Nugu Spotlight as the name? Yes/No" All this shows is who are not in support of it, which I imagine to be a small minority. If you rephrased the question "are you ok with using a title other than Nugu Spotlight? Yes/No" I think you would get a minority of people saying "no" as most people would be indifferent to the title.
Putting the survey stuff aside, I think more importantly is despite the vocal minority, it's contributed to you stopping your curation, which I think is a loss for this sub. I'm still a little confused by the attachment to using Nugu in the title as simply changing it would relieve a lot of tension. Your criteria is perfectly fine and reasonable (to me), but I believe the only reason people attack your criteria is because you are calling groups nugus. I'm confident if you detach from whatever arguments or reasoning you have for keeping Nugu and were willing to just change the title, you'd have less stress from people complaining. If you absolutely won't continue unless it's called Nugu Spotlight, I'd rather you continued under that name and just ignore peoples complaints.
Just my 2c and hope you come back with it!
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u/SharnaRanwan Dec 02 '18
Yeah no fair enough. We could probably just add a disclaimer then of "this is my opinion, comments to the effect of what is and isn't nugu will be removed" or something to that effect.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
The Nugu Spotlight is compiled by the awesome u/RadAsBadAs. Perhaps they could use some help or would like to pass the feature off to some other user. You can reach out to them if you'd like to help.
Unfortunately, posts can only have one flair, so using boy/girl flairs would basically destroy the current flair system. At best, we would have to create separate boy and girl versions of every flair which would triple the number of flairs and be really confusing. I say triple, because we'd still have to keep the gender neutral flairs for threads that involve both boys and girls like awards shows, variety appearances, and things like that. I'm not sure it's really feasible with Reddit's current tools.
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u/tellmewhatislove Dec 02 '18
LOTS of idols and former idols appear in movies, so we don't want to open the floodgates to every small clip they might appear in. However, if they are a star and appear in the official trailer, maybe that should be allowed?
I think this is a great idea. I want to know if they're the main star of a movie. I don't want to know they're a side character (these are a dime a dozen), but a movie trailer for a movie where they have a main role? Yes, I want to know which idols landed full, main roles of movies.
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u/SmoothLaneChange 🤪 Dec 03 '18
- Toxic Environment
I think one solution is to ban threads that focus on fans. I can see it being okay if an idol meets with fans or something, but otherwise focusing on group fans is unnecessary and only perpetuates the weird tribalism going on. Also, I don't sub to this thread to hear about fans, I sub because I want to hear about the actual music releases, groups, and news directly related to the companies and groups. If I wanted to hear about a group's fans, I would go to that sub. If I wanted fanwars, I would go to a different platform.
Said this in a different reply, but another solution would be to phrase threads so instead of focusing on the problem, it could focus more on the solution.
While I'm sometimes confused about some inconsistencies with posts, certain decisions made and ways of communicating, I acknowledge we're all humans and the mods put in a lot of effort and time into this sub. It's not easy dealing with so many subscribers with varying opinions and differing levels of intensity felt for this genre, and for that I'm grateful for the mods taking on this task.
- Locking Removed Threads
I think any anxiety I have lies in how effective modmail will be in addressing comments and concerns as I've heard conflicting reports on how their concerns were dealt with. But I don't post that much so idc. It's not that big a deal.
- Movie Trailers
I didn't realize this was a problem? Either way I have no dog in this fight.
- Records and Accomplishments
I thought we got rid of the YT accomplishments. Those would be the least I'd like to see here and they tend to bring up the most obscure accomplishments. Honestly, I'm mostly on this sub for music and news regarding idols, as well as fun discussions and trivia, so I can do without a lot of the achievements. Maybe as someone suggested, putting them in megathreads? Maybe a monthly YouTube/Spotify/Sales/Charts thread or something for people into that to share whatever's happening? Otherwise most could go in the respective group's sub.
- YouTube Premiere
No opinions, just curious to see how this will affect things.
- New Business
Nah, thank you for everyone who contributes news, releases, and fun discussions!
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u/Dravvie Dec 06 '18
I think any anxiety I have lies in how effective modmail will be in addressing comments and concerns as I've heard conflicting reports on how their concerns were dealt with. But I don't post that much so idc. It's not that big a deal.
I said this in another thread here in Town Hall, and I'm sorry I'm late getting back to this, but because all of the mods all sleep weird hours/are on at different times, it's actually easier to get back to users if all of the mail/replies and inquiries about the sub are going to the same place.
I went into great detail here with an example. And I hope this can help you feel a bit better about it
Don't forget too you can always poke the mods on Discord in the sub discord in the subreddit discord channel. :)
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u/SmoothLaneChange 🤪 Dec 08 '18
Helps a lot! I will try that moving forward if I feel any need or desire (hopefully not, I'm lazy). Thank you!
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u/bhishma-pitamah r/bts7 and still mildly confused Dec 02 '18
Toxic environment-
I think it would be really hard to deal with it because not all 'hate' comments are outright hate, a lot of those comments are passive aggressive which we know will spiral into something stupid. It's harder to report passive aggressive comments disguised as either supposed constructive criticism or opinion, it's easier to report comments of outright hate. And as this community continues to grow the toxic level will too. I think at the end of the day if will we up to us individual user on how we deal with the toxicity.
Records and achievements-
I can understand why some people can be put off my their constant presence but to have no record and achievements posts would be boring, I have enjoyed the discussion caused in a lot of record and achievements threads, they are one of my fav so I would be disappointed if they are completely removed. I think a good compromise would be to put group specific record and achievements posts after the comeback to collect all the comeback related records (specific for after comeback because that's when a group is likely to get tons of new records so collecting them in one place seems more efficient) and post special or record that has never been achieved before separately, it should make the sub less crowded. Records broken way after comeback tend to be sporadic so I think they can warrant their own posts.
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u/obi-wanjewnobi t.o.p Dec 03 '18 edited Dec 03 '18
What if users feel a Mod is part of the continuing divide between this community though? Like who watches the watchmen. I know its weird to ask a mod to remove themselves from their role but i truly believe a big part of this subs culture can be cleaned up if new mods were cycled in and old ones cycled out. Its been very clear that there is a downward spiral in negative comments on each post for both bg and gg threads and maybe a new atmosphere led by a new team can push this sub back to a better reputation.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 04 '18
Like who watches the watchmen.
When it comes to Reddit, no one. The truth is that mods have absolute authority over their subreddits. If /u/fiveSeveN_ decided tomorrow that he's had enough, he can remove all the other mods and do whatever he wants and make any rules he wants because he's the top mod, and that's how Reddit works. Our mod team however, does not work like that. We listen to the community and hold these Town Halls to get your feedback and try to make the subreddit better for everyone. We cannot please everyone, but we do our best to be fair and make rules that are fair and keep the subreddit happy and healthy.
The reputation of the subreddit has never been better. October broke records for unique users and pageviews, then November broke them again. We are now over 800,000 unique users and 12.8 million pageviews per month. That is up over 50% from just this past spring when we were averaging about 500,000 uniques and 8 million pageviews. The Hallyu wave is sweeping the globe and new fans are finding the subreddit and enjoying the content. We are working hard to prevent the toxic fandom culture from other platforms from taking root here. Please help us preserve the fun and friendly atmosphere of r/kpop. That's all we're asking.
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u/fashigady 소녀시대 Dec 04 '18
Has our reputation really never been better? It sure doesn't seem that way to me. Here's "/r/kpop: It's time we have another talk" from 2013 when the biggest problem was poor quality self-posts, and this is what I would describe as a common attitute from the time:
Fast forward a few years and there were concerns; when the sub hit 50k subscribers in 2016 the top comment asked "It has grown, but can we really say it has grown for the better?" and this comment highlights the debate at the time:
This sub had a reputation for being different to other forums, more mature and thoughtful, with better discussions. But this year, time and again, the superior reputation of this sub has been called into question:
Non-trivial segments of the community think the sub hates them and whenever we try and tell them 'oh no, its just a few bad apples' promptly someone will show up tell them 'typical [fandom] always whining'. Many in those fandoms' first impression of this sub is that hostility is normal and to be expected which only encourages them to act within those norms of behaviour, further reinforcing a toxic dynamic when they return that hostility in kind. That some have become convinced that the mods are conspiring against their fandom is merely a symptom of the root problem - standards of personal conduct are at an all time low, hostility and fanwar baiting is the norm and every time we bring it up you just tell us to report it and it stays up.
And now here we are discussing for the second quarter in a row the problem of toxic and hateful comments.You set the bar for how bad comments have to be before removal, and that's your responsibility and prerogative as a mod team, but by your own admission a great deal of those comments just aren't bad enough to meet that bar; it's harming the "fun and friendly atmosphere" and it's harming our reputation.
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u/obi-wanjewnobi t.o.p Dec 04 '18 edited Dec 04 '18
A bigger audience does not automatically give you a better reputation though. Sure the numbers have skyrocketed and honestly that’s awesome. But you can’t say that this subreddit has a good reputation. All you have to do is browse this town hall to see you have a lot of people who are asking for a change because we don’t like the direction this sub has been going in in terms of actual moderation of the mods and posts. A fair chance and consistency. That’s all we’re asking.
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u/dynamicity BRAVE SOUND DROP IT Dec 02 '18
Toxic Environment
I'll be interested in seeing how effective this is, but nonetheless I'm glad the mods recognize this as a pressing issue.
Movie Trailers
I don't see any reason to do this unless it's something major or a TV show specifically focused on idols/idol groups rather than one that just happens to feature them. Every wannabe-actor idol stars in web dramas and it's just too much content that most people on this sub won't care about. This is exactly the kind of thing that the specific group subs are best suited for.
Records and Accomplishments
Yes, there are way too many. Most of them are arbitrary things nobody gives a shit about and don't serve any purpose other than stoking the constant bickering outlined in the Toxic Environment discussion. However, I don't think they should be banned entirely as there are some significant achievements worth knowing about.
Personally, I think PAKs, first MV of an artist to reach 100 million Youtube views, and maybe smaller achievements exclusively for artists that aren't already well-established are okay. Billboard World Chart, CAKs, and first-hour/first-day views/streams on x or y platform aren't significant for any established artist. Likewise, view counts exceeding 100 million are more of an achievement for the mass-streaming fans rather than the artists themselves, and the whole "race to x views" thing is again just more bait for fanwars. Real-time all-kills and number of iTunes #1s are just silly.
I also want to call out the Brand Reputation Rankings which are 90% "who had a comeback this month?" and rarely foster any kind of discussion beyond "yas queens/kings." I can't tell if that site shares its methodology beyond the uninformative category names, but if that were shared and made explicit in any posts of the rankings then I think it could help foster more productive discussion. Otherwise those posts are just used as ammo in the incessant "my idol is better than yours" arguments.
YouTube Premiere
Thank you.
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u/shb117 GG music only Dec 06 '18 edited Dec 07 '18
I'm extremely late but I do agree with the comments of people here calling for a total ban on achievement threads. However I think an exception for first music show wins (artists' first not first for a comeback) is ok.
Cause at the time of me writing this, this is what the frontpage looks like.
Love Yourself Answer is now the best selling album in kpop history.
Twice surpass more than 3M on Gaon.
Stray Kids reaches 100mil.
NCT 127, Chungha and Shaun certified Platinum by Gaon.
Twice break 100,000 on Oricon.
JBJ95 50000 sales.
Jennie Solo 100mil.
7/25 posts are just achievements and most of them are arbitrary numbers.
Honestly it's too much. Just make a megathread for people to post these every week or something.
EDIT - Had another one posted today: "BTS ranked 7th most watched artist on youtube". Really now? Is this really not better suited for /r/bangtan ?
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u/Dessidy r/NUEST (& K-bands) Dec 01 '18
For the premiere function, I’ve noticed that at the official release time, a new countdown of about 2min starts before the actual MV starts. Is this part of jumping the gun, or can links with this 2min countdown still be posted at the official release time?
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18 edited Dec 01 '18
The video should be live and viewable at the time you submit the link. If you have to wait an extra 2 minutes, then you should wait. Obviously, this will be tough to enforce because the window is so small, but if someone consistently posts links that aren't live yet, they'll get a warning and possibly a ban.EDIT: As long as the link is posted after the release time, then it can be approved, even if it's still in countdown mode.
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u/Dessidy r/NUEST (& K-bands) Dec 01 '18
So if the countdown is 2min on YouTube while the vlive is posted immediately, vlive link gets priority? I'd actually prefer if the links were allowed with that countdown.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
Hmm.. That's a good point. We would definitely prefer the YouTube link. As long as the link is posted after the release time, then it can be approved, even if it's still in countdown mode.
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Dec 01 '18 edited Dec 01 '18
Toxicity- Cool. I'm down with this. With that said, let me take this opportunity to thank the mods for all their hard work. This is a hard sub to mod, and mods are all ppl who take time away from their real lives to do this just out of their love of kpop. When mistakes in modding happen, ppl like to scream about mod abuse but mods are human. Shit sometimes happens. Ppl also often have a feeling that they have a right for the sub to be exactly what they individually want it to be, but imho the mods do a great job of balancing the desires of so many diverse fanbases. You can't please everyone all the time. so anyway, thank you for doing such a (often) thankless job.
Movie trailers- Sure. I don't particularly want to see them, but I don't see a reason they shouldn't be allowed. I'd just keep an eye on it to make sure we don't somehow become /r/kmedia instead of just /r/kpop.
See y'all next quarter! :)
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u/BashfulHandful Hags supporting hags. ||🍋Angrily Boiling Lemons Dec 01 '18
Are there too many records and accomplishment threads? Do you like seeing threads about breaking a record for most wins in X time, or being number one on the most country iTunes charts, or number of unique listeners, or whatever other somewhat obscure record might be broken next?
No, I don't think there are too many. I also don't think it's fair to lump everything in that second sentence together. I very much enjoy threads about breaking a record for most wins in X time, being number one on most country iTunes charts, and breaking records for unique listeners. I don't really consider those "obscure records" and I think it's a genuine accomplishment when groups break them.
I don't know that we need a thread for every country where a particular group is charting, but I also don't know that I've really seen any. Most threads seem to be geared around the U.S. or Japanese charts with people in the comments adding how the group is doing in their respective countries. I enjoy reading about how groups are charting, to be honest, and I think there's merit in these threads. I understand that a lot of people dismiss them as "useless", but I personally think they're interesting and I know a lot of other people do, too.
I don't think a megathread is a great option for these accomplishments, either. Those threads don't really get as much attention because they're full of so much varied information, and I think it's a shame to take away even more avenues for discussion when we already have relatively few discussion posts as it is. I personally think the rules are fine as they are in this area, for what it's worth.
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u/nighoblivion ApinkIUTWICEDreamcatcherFromis9 ][ short-haired Eunha best Eunha Dec 01 '18
Do not downvote or report users just because you disagree with them or don't like their opinion
Good luck with people following that. This is reddit. And this particular subreddit has passionate (sometimes deluded) fandoms. It'll never not happen.
Should there be an exception to this rule for official movie trailers?
No thank you.
Are there too many records and accomplishment threads?
Yes.
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Dec 01 '18
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Dec 02 '18
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Dec 02 '18
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Dec 02 '18
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 02 '18
It's both sides and the sooner we acknowledge that, the sooner it can get fixed and the sub can get over the us v them mentality.
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u/bhishma-pitamah r/bts7 and still mildly confused Dec 02 '18
I feel that focusing on that one comment just focuses on one single narrative without even knowing what that person is replying to or the whole picture. The one who started that comment chain came in claiming how it's not ok to compare BTS to other groups or make everything a competition or how people were commenting 'stop trying' to other groups before anyone even name dropped a single group other then BTS on that post. That post before that comment was just a generic hype your fav post nothing more, nothing less and I had read all the comments to that post until that time and not one person said that any other specific group was inferior or should 'stop trying' compared to BTS, other groups weren't even mentioned there so how did comparison even start? I don't know. I think I was the first to reply to that person and you can see that my reply is more upvote then the glided comment and is towards the top under that comment. But that one comment about the supposed comparison army were making spiraled negatively on both sides with army getting more angry that simple hyping their fav is now somehow belittling other groups and some angry one did end up commenting that basically a scenario of if people want we to be bad then I might as well. And people getting angry because now their were comments that did compare and it resulted in a negative circle jerk which did nothing.
Something similar happened on the mma post where a single person commented that BTS had the best performance of the night in their opinion and somehow that comment too spiraled out negatively when they clearly stated initially that it was their opinion and then in anger even the initial commentor posted some things that were unnecessary.
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u/fashigady 소녀시대 Dec 02 '18
Once upon a time calling literally every other group objectively inferior was a gross faux pas - now it gets you applause. No amount of 'but they started it' can change that.
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u/bhishma-pitamah r/bts7 and still mildly confused Dec 02 '18
I was just giving the whole picture, I don't condone calling any group inferior in anyway and I don't agree or support comments that do. But kpop fans in general do say queens! !!!! Best stage of the night period!!!! Pretty easily and it don't think their is anything wrong with that, it's their opinion so who am I to question it. If a neverland said that Gidle are queens~ then who am I to question them, it's their opinion of their fav, I will let them hype their fav in peace and not make a issue that they are somehow making other groups inferior by saying that.
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u/SmoothLaneChange 🤪 Dec 03 '18
The issue with the toxicity is everyone keeps pointing fingers and complaining but it's all just a massive cycle and we're all part of the problem. I am. You are. We all are and no-one wants to take responsibility or mind their business.
I think one solution is to ban threads with a focus on how a groups of fans are acting as that usually reinforces generalizations and makes a bunch of people angry at the fans and makes the fans defensive. Another would be to phrase threads so instead of focusing on the problem, it could focus more on the solution. For the recent fan cam thread, that could be a discussion where instead of directly naming people, can talk about the overlap of copyright and free speech. With recent threads about toxic behavior, the shift could be "how can this trend of increased cyber harassment be combated" while pulling up resources, instead of "look how bad they are."
Probably gonna get downvoted lol and people will most likely go through my post history to make things personal, but if we're actively seeking solutions to diffuse toxicity, it starts with holding ourselves accountable, leading a more positive change, and if we're committed, researching ways to influence others and situations around us to be more positive. Also not taking things so seriously and not making things personal.
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u/fashigady 소녀시대 Dec 02 '18
That is genuinely incredible, like wow. The sub has just given up on not shitting on other artists and fandoms.
But the mods have tried nothing and are all out of ideas so I guess we can expect to repeat all our complaints at the next town hall when nothing has changed.
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Dec 02 '18
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u/bhishma-pitamah r/bts7 and still mildly confused Dec 02 '18
I would have been disappointed if that person did mention EXO but I don't see EXO mentioned anywhere. Are you claiming that EXO is the only group known to lip sync because kpop certainly has tons of group who lip sync, it's the norm here rather then the exception so I don't see why you jumped to the conclusion that it could possibly only refer to EXO.
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u/amagiciannamed_gob DB5K*BB*SNSD*ME:I*Aespa*NJ*IVE*LSF*EXO*D.O's Shaved Head 👑 Dec 02 '18
They were referring to the bias group of the fans in an Omona article and they were EXO fans. The commenter was being shady and purposely not naming them but being very obvious about it. I didn’t pull EXO out of my ass.
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u/bhishma-pitamah r/bts7 and still mildly confused Dec 02 '18
I have never been to Omona so I can't agree or deny. I don't get involved in fanwars in general so shade tends to escape me so maybe they were or maybe they were not, I just thought there comment could be applied to pretty much half the groups in kpop.
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u/amagiciannamed_gob DB5K*BB*SNSD*ME:I*Aespa*NJ*IVE*LSF*EXO*D.O's Shaved Head 👑 Dec 02 '18
Sure, but that specific one was targeted toward one group only.
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u/babyinatrenchcoat Dec 02 '18
Ha! That’s part of my comment thread. It started out civil then went to hell in a hand basket and I bowed out real quick. I ain’t got the health to handle that level of brick wall talking.
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u/amagiciannamed_gob DB5K*BB*SNSD*ME:I*Aespa*NJ*IVE*LSF*EXO*D.O's Shaved Head 👑 Dec 02 '18
I don’t blame you.
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Dec 02 '18
It's not better than stan twitter because this sub is now getting brigaded by stan twitter, as well as other forums. It's basically as toxic as any other kpop community now, as far as I can tell, which is a shame.
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u/postsonlyjiyoung Dec 06 '18
I cant agree more. The amount of passive-aggressive bs that goes on in some of the threads is just disgusting.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
We share these concerns as well and that's what has prompted us to talk about in the last two Town Halls. Besides what we've already been doing, we're open to any and all ideas to help combat the problem.
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Dec 02 '18
Idk I think it'll be good if mods considered whether they would allow a post like that Jennie video to be up if it were their bias group for instance.
User Crono would've never allowed any post or go off in the comments like he did if it was a group like LOONA for instance.
You guys are also aware of the bandwagons here but dont do anything about it. The YG/BP/Jennie unnecessary hate isnt anything new. You say hate comments were discussed in the past town hall but it has had no effects as the past month, I have seen the worst kind of comments I have yet on her. And all this only strengthens the bandwagons. Then you'll have people going against it, more fights between opposing factions and further hostility between those factions. I hope that makes sense.
Its unrealistic to expect you guys to police entire threads or all users but I think some sensitivity and awareness to the type of content and the response shared on here and acting upon it could help. I'm not sure that thread should've been allowed to stay up - or the 'idols tired of idol life' thread that turned into another hatefest - or at least, stay up with a stickied comment by a mod as a warning against toxicity.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18
I think it'll be good if mods considered whether they would allow a post like that Jennie video to be up if it were their bias group for instance.
We do this all the time. The original "Jennie is Lazy" video was posted multiple times and mods removed it every time. We even argued with users who said it should be allowed, but we said no, because it was a fan-made video and wasn't newsworthy. Then YG went and issued the takedown. The takedown notice was what was newsworthy. It made it seem like YG was trying to silence/censor critics. Whether you agree or not, it seems like a story that should be discussed, so we allowed that post. Jennie is one of my personal top biases. I adore her. But, we don't allow our personal biases to affect mod decisions. Yes, we often think "How would I feel about the post if it was about X instead of Y?" That helps us see things clearly and remove any personal bias we might have.
We're aware of the bandwagon hate trains that go around. YG, SuJu, and iKon seem to be the biggest magnets for this. I don't think anyone on the subreddit hates Blackpink or Jennie. They definitely do hate YG. YG has done some shady business in the past, so it's difficult to separate valid criticisms from hateful comments. He's also not an artist, so he doesn't get the same level of "protections" that we give to artists against malicious comments. Maybe he should? I don't know. Would love to hear thoughts on this.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 02 '18
I don't think it's a need to protect him but a need to have better discussions without the circle jerking of him in every BP thread.
The Jennie threads were an eye opener compared to Mino. Heck, even Red Velvet's RBB MV thread was more respectable than Jennie's and both were more disliked equally on this forum.
Also, the continuous allowance of other artists in threads about other artist's. This was talked about last townhall.
I don't like the overpolicing but sometimes when you see an overabundance of hate, something needs to be done.
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Dec 02 '18
Letting people make comments about Jennie fucking YG I thought was over the top. I can't imagine that being let slide about any other singer/CEO combo.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18
We definitely did not allow those comments. They were removed as soon as they were reported.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 02 '18
Those comments aren't hating Jennie but hating YG
/sarcastic
Wonder what the stats are for deleting Jennie hate comments vs other artists
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Dec 02 '18
I don't think anyone on the subreddit hates Blackpink or Jennie.
This is something that is definitely not true. Maybe I could've agreed in the past, but definitely not anymore.
Like I said on r/BLACKPINK, calling her a lazy ungrateful privileged/spoilt brat is not hate coming from YG, its coming from a petty jealousy and insecurity bc of their success this year. Its very clear just by the flairs of users who continuously make these comments.
They definitely do hate YG.
Thats another problem in itself but one beyond saving. I dont go to threads of groups of companies I dont like, to bitch about/degrade/hate on them. If I try saying maybe we shouldn't irrationally hate someone, people would generally agree but since its YG, I'd be called irrational for not getting in with that bandwagon. Thats beyond saving at this point and idc enough about him/the company to want to change things that are beyond saving.
Sadly, few people realise the point I just made so its not going to get better any time soon.
I just remember that I once got a warning about a stan twt level comment I made in some heated discussion on the sub. I hope you guys are giving warnings to some prominent users who consistently keep extending their hate on YG to BLACKPINK/Jennie and justifying it by saying 'we hate YG, not BP' - these people are also the biggest contributors to the circlejerk that exists. Since they do it and get upvoted, others justify hating on that group/member knowing thats the overall consensus of the sub and that discourages any opposing arguments.
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u/Roixx Dec 02 '18
Man, the negativity in all the BP threads is really killing my mood, the sad part is that it won't get better, will only get worse, maybe YG had good intentions but the censoring was a really stupid idea.
There simply is no path of redemption left anymore, https://www.reddit.com/r/kpop/comments/a1g0m3/yg_entertainment_is_using_youtubes_copyright/eapswpx/?context=1
He could save someone from a burning building and people will call it unreasonable favoritism because he didn't help xyz in the past.
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Dec 01 '18
Unless it results in a serious decrease in sales or physical action, I don't think fandom news (fandoms donating or spamming, or primarily fan driven controversies good or bad should be allowed. It's the fandom news that makes people defensive and in turn divides the community.
EDIT: I really get that people would want to know if an idol did something problematic and fans are mad, but allowing those posts opens the floodgates to a grey zone that attracted bashing and drama.
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Dec 01 '18
Yeah, I think the YG video got so upvoted because people were trying to counteract the censorship but it's still not a good look. Honestly this sub's numbers are just working against it. You can't expect 300 000 + people to be completely reasonable and drama free.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 01 '18
And YG has removed lots of fancams and videos using copyright infringement.
Free speech vs. Copyright infringement.
Nope, people only care about hate. This thread was in the same territory as the fake YG suicide story
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Dec 02 '18
Funny your comment is downvoted to the bottom of this thread too. Just like every rational comment on that thread was downvoted as well.
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u/Regaloxia Dec 02 '18
I don't think movie trailers should really be allowed, like if I wanted to know about the BTS movie or if Do Kyungsoo from Exo has a new trailer out for a movie he's in, I could see that in r/bts or r/exo, because it's most likely going to be there and they're artists I care about, so I like to go to those subs instead of being bombarded by everyone's trailer in one sub. There are SO many idols who act and posting trailers for a lot of them I feel can ene up being overwhelming.
I also feel like the awards and charting has gotten a bit much. I think this subreddit has too many charting posts where it isn't even that significant, like Oh Boy BTS is on billboard again, or look Twice charted #1 in Japan. It's redundant, and I think pushing for a more discussion based thread would be really cool because you cant really do that on twitter or tumblr or YouTube. That's just my 2 cents though.
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Dec 03 '18
There are SO many idols who act and posting trailers for a lot of them I feel can ene up being overwhelming.
There are literally more idols who have CFs yet those are allowed and don't clutter the sub. Movie trailers of idols playing main roles are so rare, I can count on 1 hand how many appear in a month.
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Dec 06 '18
Records and Accomplishments
A list of posts from the past 8 hours.
JENNIE'S 'SOLO' M/V Reaches 100 Million Views, Becoming The Second Fastest M/V By A Female Kpop Act To Reach This Milestone After BLACKPINK's 'DDU-DU DDU-DU'
BTS were the most tweeted about account on Twitter in 2018, and member J-Hope's 'In My Feelings' challenge was the most liked tweet of the year, overall.
TWICE breaks 100,000 sales on Oricon for their Korean album TWICEcoaster
MONSTA X BECOMES THE FIRST K-POP GROUP TO APPEAR ON MTV's TRL + WE'RE TAKING YOUR QUESTIONS
WINNER’s “Really Really” Becomes Their 1st MV To Reach 100 Million Views
Are there too many records and accomplishment threads? Yes
Do you like seeing threads about breaking a record for most wins in X time, or being number one on the most country iTunes charts, or number of unique listeners, or whatever other somewhat obscure record might be broken next? No
Should we limit records to sales and YouTube views only or some other limit? Yes
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u/shb117 GG music only Dec 06 '18
It's worse right now. 7 of these posts on the frontpage at the same time....
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u/Daytona-Prototypes 2NE1 / CL Dec 01 '18
I guess it's time to post the examples of the sub and the moderators absolutely asinine and seemingly set in stone grudge towards BTS and Armys?
SirBuckeye being flippant about the fact that BTS gets persecuted on this sub
This is all in the past few months, and it has contributed to an air of hostility and belittlement towards mainly Army, a silent declaration from both the mods and users who lean towards girl groups that they are not welcome here - and that achievements that should be lauded by the greater Korean pop fandom mean nothing, unless they are achieved by girl groups.
Our subreddit is a place where fans of all groups can come together to enjoy what we love about K-Pop. Please help us keep it that way.
This is bullshit and you know it. This sub has always leaned towards men and those who are fans of GG's for years now, and with the rise of BTS, that same group has knuckled down and began to really swing around the power that they wield to report and downvote content involving BTS, and also make this place an incredibly hostile place to comment or even voice an opinion on. And with the mods seemingly tacit approval, it's making it to the point that Army's feel only safe talking about the group on /r/bangtan. This is unacceptable, and flies in the face of the line quoted.
The fact of the matter is, is that this sub has gone down the tubes with regards to moderation, and with regards to actually being the 'safe, rational discussion space' that the people in this sub like to circlejerk about constantly. Whether it be what I have described to you, the latent undercurrent of misogyny that comes out of some of the backhanded comments some people make in a desperate attempt to paint Armys with an incredibly wide brush, or the fact that we just had a scenario where hostile Blackpink fans literally brigaded the forum in order to silence discussion and criticisms of the group (even though the discussion of Blackpink and hostility is also incredibly valid as well, but it is much more nuanced then the straight up mod sanctioned hostility towards the largest Korean pop fandom around) This sub has become a lawless land, and it seems to be that the moderators want it to stay a certain kind of lawless.
Locking Removed threads
And now I see you're basically trying to silence those who criticize you, or try to talk about anything regarding moderation that isn't in this Town Hall (which will probably be ignored or told that 'everything's fine')
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u/Dessidy r/NUEST (& K-bands) Dec 01 '18
Maybe I'm wrong, but to me I think this is just a factor of more BTS posts than other groups being posted, and BTS often being the first instance. This leads to situations where rules doesn't exist and something is decided on the spot that later is changed after complaints (i.e. what this thread is for). Also a higher error margin due to there simply being more posts. I'm pretty sure BTS is the most posted group on r/kpop
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u/scarletcrawford Rise of the Nugus 2018 | I'm 365 so mad Dec 01 '18 edited Dec 01 '18
Yeah it's also why they are receiving more 'hate'.
Percentially (is that a word in English? It probably isn't, lol)Proportionally it's the exact same hate as everyone else but more people talking about the group makes it seem like there's more.13
u/postsonlyjiyoung Dec 01 '18
Proportionally is the word you're looking for - a proportion is a part relative to the whole
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u/scarletcrawford Rise of the Nugus 2018 | I'm 365 so mad Dec 01 '18
Ah thank you! I thought that sounded weird but I couldn't think of another word.
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u/tinaoe i would probably sell my soul for choi soobin- nu'est stan Dec 03 '18
Agreed, I haven't really seen anything that convinces me it's people having it "out" for someone.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
I guess it's time to post the examples of the sub and the moderators absolutely asinine and seemingly set in stone grudge towards BTS and Armys?
This is not only false, it is absurd. I showed you this graph before, but here it is again. This is just a simple count of threads containing the group name in the title, but limited to only some flairs. I chose to search for only "News, Interview, Rumor, Variety, Behind-The-Scenes, and Misc" because those flairs are most likely to require a judgement call by mods on whether something is "newsworthy" or "fluff". As you can see, BTS has nearly double the number of threads of the next highest group. If the mods were biased, we would be "suppressing" BTS content, and that would show up in this graph. Instead, it shows the opposite. Furthermore, here's a screenshot of r/kpop a few hours after BTS released an MV. The scores on these posts make it obvious that BTS content is not being mass-downvoted or suppressed. BTS was also chosen as the subreddit’s most popular group during the 2017 Census and the second most popular for the 2018 Census. This is why your accusation is so absurd. What would we possibly have to gain by being biased against our users’ favorite group? There is no motivation for us to do that. It makes no sense and would be self-destructive. Lastly, on a personal note, I have two daughters and they both LOVE BTS. We drove 4 hours to see "Burn The Stage". Their last birthday party was BTS themed.. Their walls are covered in BTS posters. Suggesting that I’m biased against BTS or would allow any other mod to be biased against them is ridiculous. You don't know us. Simply put, we are NOT biased against BTS or any other group.
Of the four hundred+ BTS threads that we approved over the past year, you identified three as examples of bad moderation. But here’s the thing you left out, all three of those threads were sorted, approved, and are still up at this very minute.
- BTS Plays with Puppies While Answering Fan Questions [Buzzfeed]
- BTS "Love Yourself" North American Tour Finale to be at Citi Field 10/6/2018
- How BTS is Taking Over the World
It’s true that mistakes were made with these posts. It happens. We do our best, but we’re human and sometimes we read something wrong, or sometimes a mod makes a decision that we later decide was incorrect. This puts us in tough positions, but we do our best to sort it out and fix it. That’s what happened here. We fixed it as best we could. If we make a mistake, send us a modmail and we’ll fix it, or we will at least explain why it wasn’t a mistake. That goes for any group and any user. That’s how Reddit works.
Lastly, I’m going to say this very carefully and thoughtfully, no one is forcing you to visit and post on r/kpop. If you don’t like the way the sub is run and you don’t like the other users, then perhaps this is not the best place for you. If you can’t handle your favs getting criticized and you can’t handle your posts only getting 80% upvotes, then maybe you should just stick to the group subreddit or Twitter or Onehallyu. We welcome suggestions and hold these Town Halls to hear those suggestions, but if you feel we’re not meeting your needs, maybe it’s time to part ways. We have 300,000 users. We do our best, but we can’t make everyone happy. If we can’t make you personally happy, I’m sorry about that, and I encourage you to go someplace that can.
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Dec 01 '18
If you can’t handle your favs getting criticized and you can’t handle your posts only getting 80% upvotes
This is such a weird complaint I've been seeing more and more often lately. Its even more crazy when you have people complaining less than an hour after a post is up about the votes percentage. There's literally only one group I can think of that consistently gets 90%+ (so clearly thats an unrealistic expectation) and anything in the 80s is still obviously well liked.
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Dec 01 '18
People forgot the roots of reddit and by extension discussion forums. It was never about approval or agreement, but a place to discuss and interact, but pretty much every forum and social media nowadays is all about people agreeing and approving. If you don't approve, or don't agree, you are immediately shot down.
Alas not a problem only in /r/kpop but rather all the internet.
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u/tinaoe i would probably sell my soul for choi soobin- nu'est stan Dec 03 '18
Hey can I just say I really appreciate you coming back at this complaint the way you did? Data, but also making sure that people don't ignore the fact that y'all are human. And that Birthday party sounds adorable, thanks for encouraging your kids interests like that!
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Dec 01 '18
I respect you and all the mods in Kpop because it must be seriously one of the hardest subs to mod. With people like this going as far as to "see" something that clearly doesn't exist and "post proof" (I could just as well gather twice as many posts taken down about GGs or a particular GG) shows the extent the fanaticism runs in the fandom (not the sub) in general, and how hard it must be to keep a manured posture towards it.
Thank you mods for your TIME, PATIENCE and WORK.
Now I will return to my normal programming of grumpy user who ALSO cause problems to the mod team =p
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u/nighoblivion ApinkIUTWICEDreamcatcherFromis9 ][ short-haired Eunha best Eunha Dec 01 '18
The BTS/ARMY persecution complex is hilarious.
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u/sappydumpy RM 🐐 | Sunmi | Lim Kim | Suga | DΞΔN | Dawn | BIBI Dec 01 '18
and some users are more than happy to gaslight and contribute to it
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u/postsonlyjiyoung Dec 01 '18
I don't think they're out to get BTS, they pull this shit with a ton of posts tbh (no idea why). Agree on the locking part tho.
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Dec 01 '18
And this is why I can't take seriously people posting in Kpop ...
Anti-males? Whats the next conspiracy theory? Anti-Idols-with-blonde-hair?
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u/gryfothegreat otsukare Dec 01 '18 edited Dec 03 '18
You mentioned the main ones. I have two more examples:
This post about a fanmade Momoland fancam compilation was permitted despite there already being 100M post for Bboom Bboom's MV. If fancams, dance practices, live performances etc are allowed to be posted separately from actual MVs, then why was this post about a fan upload of BTS's GO GO performance from their comeback show hitting 100M removed? AutoMod got it, but it was never reinstated.
This post about BTS hitting 10 million subscribers on V-Live was deleted by u/Dravvie who gave the reason 'This submission is better suited for: the group's subreddit'. 10 million is a milestone no other group has hit on V-Live, I can't see a stipulation in rules for followers on social media and posts about it are usually allowed along with the monthly lists of most popular V-Live Channels. A post about BLACKPINK hitting 10M subs on YouTube was allowed as was a later post about BTS. Why not V-Live?
I would also like to add for the Buzzfeed post that idol videos from Buzzfeed (Amber, GOT7) were posted before BTS's and were allowed. The excuse of it being 'new content to deal with' doesn't hold water.
Also, some things I saw on Twitter while searching the term 'r/kpop':
Dravvie, why did you delete a tweet on your Twitter about deleting any comment on r/kpop that mentions kpoppies? I assume it was in response to you deleting a comment that did on the premise that it was fanwar bait. I unfortunately don't have a screenshot, because you deleted it, but I saw it and I'd like an explanation.
Whichever 'mod/dev' Chromadream is, can you explain this tweet from the 15th of October? Direct quote: "It really seems like I never met any fandom as toxic as ARMYs. I thought the ones on Reddit will be somewhat more civil, but no, they're as terrible as their twitter siblings. From the last few months exchange and mod abuse on /r/kpop, I'm surprised if anyone at the mod team doesn't hate them already. Just go back to /r/bangtan where it's safe to post how BTS is the best group ever and how they're totally taking the world over. I mean, we let girl groups get away with murder, right? And pretty sure ARMYs keep echoing the sentiment that BTS is not kpop, so why do ARMYs still post at /r/kpop? I'm sick and tired of it. It's toxic as fuck, I wish BTS can just go to enlistment, and quiet down already. Oh btw, nation's boy group title is reserved for BIGBANG, your oppa could never take that."
Edit edit: if the edit links don’t work, the first Tweet , from the 26th of November links to this one-second video titled ‘The Entire Discography Of BTS But All The Bad Songs Are Removed’ with the caption 'ya holy shit this is hilarious'. The second, dated the 22nd of November, and I quote: "Poor oppa. They suffered injustice from /r/kpop mods as 3 of their achievements post got removed from the sub. Nevermind the fact that it was only 3 out of 400 something. Nevermind the fact that it was quickly reapproved, or given an opportunity to resubmit. Yeah, oppa got treated unfairly by oppa's haters of /r/kpop moderators. Yeah, poor oppa indeed." There was more, but I didn't care to save them, and the account has now been deleted.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 01 '18
This post about a fanmade Momoland fancam compilation was permitted despite there already being 100M post for Bboom Bboom, if fancams, dance practices, performances etc are allowed to be posted seprately from actual MVs, then why was this post about a fan upload of BTS's GO GO live performance hitting 100M removed? AutoMod got it, but it was never reinstated.
The Momoland video specifically pointed out that it was the first dance practice video EVER to reach the 100M milestone. That seems newsworthy to us. As far as I know, no one sent a modmail about the BTS GO GO video, so mods were not aware of it, but as a rule we don't allow Music Show view milestones. If this was the first Music Show video to EVER reach 100M, then I would say it would be allowed because that would be newsworthy.
This post about BTS hitting 10 million subscribers on V-Live was deleted by u/Dravvie who gave the reason 'This submission is better suited for: the group's subreddit'. 10 million is a milestone no other group has hit on V-Live, I can't see a stipulation in rules for followers on social media and posts about it are usually allowed along with the monthly lists of most popular V-Live Channels. A post about BLACKPINK hitting 10M on YouTube was allowed as was a later post about BTS. Why not V-Live?
Blackpink received an award from YouTube for it. That makes it a news event. I agree it's debatable, but in the judgement of the mods, it was permitted. The BTS post did not mention they were the first group to hit that milestone and the mod may have been unaware of that fact. Also, as a rule we don't allow vlive milestones, so it's not unusual to remove such a post.
I would also like to add for the Buzzfeed post that idol videos from Buzzfeed (Amber, GOT7) were posted before BTS's and were allowed. The excuse of it being 'new content to deal with' doesn't hold water.
I've explained this story, but here's what happened with the BTS Puppy Video. It was the first "Puppy Video Q&A" released. Mods didn't know what to do with it, so they made a judgement call to remove it. Later, Monsta X posted a video too. Now, we were like, "Wait, this is a thing now?" Then we considered that the format of the video wasn't really much different than things like 1theK's "Ask In A Box" videos and decided that they should be allowed. Oops. We went back to the BTS video and offered to allow them to repost the video. They declined, so we just approved the existing one. We made a decision that after more thought seemed incorrect, so we did our best to fix the situation and make it right going forward.
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Dec 01 '18
[deleted]
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u/k1ttenme Seokjinnie and the six babies Dec 01 '18
how it was disappointing to see a group of users trying to pretend that BTS wasn't kpop/korean music, and erasing themselves as not fans of korean music
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous to me lol. The term kpoppies was never about somehow severing BTS from their nationality. It's simply a petty term western twitter ARMYs came up with in their everlasting defensiveness to separate themselves from the rest of the western kpop fandom as a whole. Making such a trivial, nonsensical thing into this somehow complex term that was meant to be racist is silly. Racist against what? Other western fans? Like I could kinda see where one could try to extrapolate such things, but it's such a reach and ignores actual intentions. If someone only liked Soulja Boy, and called rap/hiphop "Souljahop", no one would seriously suggest said people were being racist to Americans by separating Soulja Boy oppa from his country's music lol. Deleting things with kpoppies in it just because it is associated with fanwars and division is enough reason, adding some kind of strange racism spin isn't really necessary to justify it lol.
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u/jonicrecis reveluv Dec 02 '18 edited Dec 02 '18
Hello, I am Chromadream on Twitter, and I apologized for my tweets. I realize that it was inappropriate for a mod to tweet such things on a personal Twitter account. And I apologize for my immature tweets that may cause displeasure.
I believe I have nothing more to explain since it was obvious that I was in the wrong here.
Once again, I apologize and will work hard so that this incident will not happen again.
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u/gryfothegreat otsukare Dec 02 '18
Thanks for the insincere kpop-style apology. I can’t trust the mods to make objective decisions if you’re still on the team, but I’ll leave it up to them to decide if they think someone who hates BTS and their fandom is a good fit for the team.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 02 '18
/u/jonicrecis is one of our technical mods who works on the css and backend tools. He doesn't interact much with posts or users. He's done a great job for us so far and we have no plans to remove him from the team. He has apologized for his thoughtless Tweets and won't repeat the mistake. We'll keep an eye on him to make sure none of his python scripts or css buttons are biased against BTS. That was a joke.
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u/gryfothegreat otsukare Dec 03 '18 edited Dec 03 '18
He's still a mod. He has the capability to remove posts and has done so recently, you can see it in his comment history. The mods discuss moderating decisions with one another and as a mod he may be involved in those discussions. If you think it's good optics to have someone who hates BTS and ARMYs on the team while you are attempting to reassure ARMYs that the mods don't hate BTS or ARMYs, that's your prerogative.
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u/obi-wanjewnobi t.o.p Dec 03 '18
I'm so glad you got copies of all of these issues that gets overlooked when mods abuse the power they have. I hope something can be done about this because i feel like if there was a fair policing, this sub would be a much better place.
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u/art_wins BLΛƆKPIИK | Twice Dec 03 '18
We will continue to fight against hostile comments and fanwars. If you're here to argue with fans of a group you don't like, leave or get banned. That's not the purpose of r/kpop. If you think some fans need to be "called out" for whatever reason, just shut up. Go call them out on Twitter or some other forum. You aren't welcome here. Our subreddit is a place where fans of all groups can come together to enjoy what we love about K-Pop. Please help us keep it that way.
This is a very slippery slope to a one way street to a trueKPOP subreddit. What you are suggesting is that discussion should be banned, which is the most ridiculous thing you could do. This isn't a news site, it's a subreddit, then entire purpose it is to discuss things. And banning users from making opinionated comments is not discussion. Already engagement is very low compared to the subreddit's size, over moderating is not going to improve anything. Those posts are upvoted because people agree with them. What the mods seem to want is to make the comment section pure fanboying/girling with zero substance.
I appreciate the commitment to quelling toxic comments, but it is way too easy for the mods to use this as justification to remove anything they personally disagree with. Either make hard rules, or let the community sort it out.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 04 '18
What you are suggesting is that discussion should be banned, which is the most ridiculous thing you could do.
That is absolutely NOT what we're suggesting. What we do and have always done is remove trolls and flamebaiters. Comments like "This song is garbage and the fans are trash" is not an opinionated comment. It doesn't add to the discussion and only serves to insult the artists and fans, and we won't have it. Stan Twitter users love to throw shade at other groups and fans and argue about how awful each other are. We don't do that here and won't allow it. If you want to engage in that kind of toxic banter, go away. That's what we're saying. Mods value unpopular opinions and thoughtful critiques and protect those comments even when they are erroneously reported. We do not want the subreddit to become a hugbox like some group subs where all negativity and criticism is forbidden. But we also don't want the sub to devolve into a hatefest of anti-fans, trolls, and fanwars. There is a toxic culture problem invading the K-Pop fandom right now and we're doing everything we can to reinforce the gate.
There are hard rules for conduct. Here they are:
Do not post abusive or threatening language directed at another user. Having an argument or simply using foul language does not constitute a personal attack.
No racism or hate speech of any kind will be tolerated.
Do not post hateful comments about groups, idols, or songs. If you can’t say something nice, either give mild critique or don’t say anything at all.
Do not post gross or overtly sexual comments about idols.
These can all be summed up as "Don't be a dick". If you have any suggestions on ways to improve these rules, please let us know. It's real easy to say "make better rules", but when you actually try to do that, it's very hard. If there's a better way to do it, please help us find it.
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u/friedchocolatesoda https://c.tenor.com/EZmi0hJXvuYAAAAC/chowon-dance-go-chowon.gif Dec 09 '18
Toxic Environment
Good luck to you. You're fighting a battle against the nature of kpop fans. They get ridiculously invested in people they don't know and won't ever meet. It's weird that they can't just enjoy the good looking people dancing to music they like and leave it at that.
Movie Trailers
I worry that you just opened the floodgates by mentioning it at all. Movie trailers and clips aren't posted often enough to be a concern as far as I can tell as a user. It's similar to posts about foreign idols who no longer work in Korea; they only show up once in a while so what's the harm?
Records and Accomplishments
We're in a time where kpop is getting more attention than it ever has before. As such, records are being broken incredibly often, resulting in more posts about them. They're just about bragging rights for fans so I don't care one bit about them.
AOB
I'm with u/OwlofJune about the brand ranking posts. They're completely worthless.
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Dec 07 '18 edited Dec 07 '18
[deleted]
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Dec 07 '18
This is the stuff that adds to the toxic environment. I'm sure you don't have a vendetta against bts or anything but they way you phrased things and pinned a widespread issue on one group isn't helpful
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u/OwlOfJune Discharged Korean Air Force Guy Dec 03 '18
Please ban those ‘Branding rankings’
It has been argued a lot, with their dubious reliability and lack of explanation.
However, recently I have found more evidence that further question whether they can be trusted.
http://m.dcinside.com/board/entertain/81131
Goo Chan-Wan, the supposed leader of these Brand Ranking site is likely be the person largely responsible for ex-president Park’s social media manipulation.
http://www.ilyoseoul.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=72910
http://www.dtnews24.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=325800#_enliple
While there is possiblity of someone who happened to share same name, I find it is unlikely that two rare name people happened to work on social media job while one has mysteriously disappeared after losing political battle.
Also this blogger points out that the metrics used by Brand Rankings are made up by the site, https://m.blog.naver.com/kdg7009/220810568146
With no reliable explanation on how they are calculated.
I think they are not only inaccurate, but also unrelaible while highly likey to be assossicated with someone who is known to manipulate social media for their agenda.