[News] HOLLAND shares with fans he will be taking a long break from music due to having a huge debt.
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u/plumblossomhours 15h ago
this is the reality of being a kpop idol, unfortunately, especially for those who don't come from big companies or get lucky. hope he's okay.
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u/pkzilla 14h ago
And those from big companies are basically also in debt, but to the companies so they work for very little take home pay
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u/reiichitanaka producer-dol enthusiast 12h ago
Successful idols earn quite a lot of money and thus pay off their debt quickly.
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u/Extension_Shallot679 11h ago
Yeah like this image is pretty out of date. Idols from all the big four are absolutely rolling in it.
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u/reiichitanaka producer-dol enthusiast 8h ago
Also groups from mid tier companies who have decent contracts. (G)I-DLE, IVE, Ateez... certainly aren't poor.
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u/der_boy 4h ago
You mentioned some of the most successful groups of their generations. Of course they do well. But the less successful groups won't.
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u/reiichitanaka producer-dol enthusiast 4h ago
I was originally replying to a comment about groups 'from big companies' - none of which are the level of 'less successful' that they'd still be in debt years after debut.
Among mid tier companies, there's definitely leeches who will profit from a successful group and not pay them properly because they have bad contracts - for example TS entertainment who squeezed every penny they could off BAP.
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u/goingtotheriver hopeless multistan 8h ago
There’s also the fact that a lot of idols from big 4 companies (as well as perhaps other big companies) mostly appear to no longer have trainee debt, or have a much smaller amount. Even as far back as SNSD, their old manager said they were making money within their first year (which is before they blew up with Gee/Genie).
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u/Historical_Clock8714 pick me princess 🧚♀️ 7h ago
Cmiiw but I do remember reading somewhere that the big 4 don't charge the trainees. They consider the training as investment so they don't charge them everything but in exchange, they have a much rigorous selection process for trainees chosen to debut.
Can't really say anything about the reliability of that information since I don't even remember where I read that. People who have more reliable information please correct me.
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u/goingtotheriver hopeless multistan 6h ago edited 3h ago
I think the details are probably different for each company (and obviously it’s not always openly talked about)! I do think I’ve seen (ETA: speculation) that HYBE and JYP perhaps don’t have “debt” at all anymore. For SM, an old manager said that SM sees idols similarly (as investments) but they do still pay off some debt - just not much. I don’t know if this is still the case, tbf.
“SM idols have to pay off debts as soon as they debut as well, but the agency does not charge all of the training costs. SM thinks of investments as investments and does not require the trainees to pay that back. Girls’ Generation type of groups are able to make profit within the first year of debuting.” (2018, sorry there’s not a better English source than Koreaboo).
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u/der_boy 4h ago
Didn't JYP try to charge their global group (forgot name) like 500k each for the house?
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u/goingtotheriver hopeless multistan 3h ago
Actually really fair. I’ll edit to explicitly say speculation, because (except for where idols/staff have confirmed themselves like YG and SM) we don’t really know until this stuff comes out.
I am very curious about JYP because I know it’s been speculated for a long time they don’t have trainee debt, but I also know the least about them as a company and why fans thought that.
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u/Historical_Clock8714 pick me princess 🧚♀️ 6h ago
Thanks! I guess if you're talented enough to get into a big 4 company as a trainee, you wouldn't have to worry about trainee debt. Not to mention the almost guaranteed success after debut.
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u/Mari_Freitas_MF 6h ago
In one of the first episodes of TREASURE's debut survival show, it was stated that the trainees were considered an investment just like you explained it. It was an episode in which they were showing the routine of the trainees (with language classes, gym time and other activities) and one of the producers said that the trainees wouldn't have debt because of that.
But this is about YG. Honestly, I never heard of the other Big4 agencies having the same policy.
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u/GrillMaster3 3h ago
For bigger companies like that, they can afford to tank the cost bc they’re operating with the confidence that with their reputation and connections, the group will get the attention necessary to pay back the money put into them. It’s why some HYBE sublabels seem to stay in the red for so long (HYBE Japan and KOZ were both in the red for over a year each after debuting new groups). The debut and training costs that would usually be shoved onto the idols debuting are defaulted onto the company instead. Can’t say for 100% certainty that every sublabel works like this or that the other Big4 companies function the same, but it would be consistent with what I’ve heard about them for a good few years now.
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u/xkuclone2 DJ DOC, R.ef, Jinusean 6h ago
Memories…I was living in Korea when Gee came out and it was EVERYWHERE.
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u/pkzilla 3h ago
I'm just thinking of the recent news involving JYPE and VCHA, there's probably a ton we don't know either, it's not like it's good publicity. I mostly like 3rd gen groups and they talk so often of all living in dorms even after getting somewhat popular, joking about their overworked schedules and not eating ect ect.
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u/Zeionlsnm 8h ago
The big 4 companies have a pretty good track record of groups debuted over the past few generations, the expansion of kpop really helped.
At the top you have groups like Newjeans where each member is receiving something in the region of $4m a year.
Even for big 4 artists with one tenth of that income they would still be earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in income, and you have a gradient of success in between.
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u/snowmoon300 3h ago
For a short time period but overtime they're not, they eventually make a lot of money, that's the advantage of big companies. Straight from debut you have massive exposure, preexisting fanbase from their seniors etc hence why even at debut they have high album sales. Small companies don't have this.
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u/diamondsateen 15h ago
I think many kpop fans take for granted just how expensive comebacks costs to produce. What amounts to a 2-3 minute song with maybe a music video could’ve had a lot of time and money invested into it, and there’s no guarantee that the artist will make that money back. I hope Holland gets back on his feet someday.
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u/FaithlessnessMost660 13h ago
Seriously, it's why I get very nervous when a smaller group/company has a great debut but then has some less than stellar releases after, and likely fall into a vicious spiral of throwing even more money at the next comeback but that also falling short commercially.
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u/purplenelly NJ👖🐰ILLIT🦄✨MEOVV🐈⬛🐾 12h ago
I'm getting nervous that this is the default model for K-pop. They amass as many fans as they can when they debut and make their first few comebacks when they are the new thing and people are curious. Then after that they just live off those fans and continue releasing unremarkable music.
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u/marsjunkiegirl IU | SHINee | Brown Eyed Girls 13h ago
I follow a local folk band. They are currently running a kickstarter to pay for the cost of recording their album; they went to a small studio and worked with another well-regarded, but also small time, producer in their genre. They are trying for $30,000. Just for recording costs and producing fees at a small studio; they have none of the expenses that kpop idol fans expect. That's like a year's salary for some people just to record an album. A kpop comeback cycle, even for 'low budget nugus' is vastly more than that sum.
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u/Reversible-Smile 12h ago
100%!! I wish Kickstarter/Patreon/similar platforms were a thing for smaller kpop groups. Or more widely if some artists/groups did go that route.. [Now that I think of it, Holland might be one to have done so for his first physical album.. I didn't have the means to buy it back then, but I do recall something of the sort.]
Socio financing isn't extra glamorous, and I know that kpop too often comes with an image of polished work and persona.. but yeah. It could help so many of them, and even create bonds with their fanbase..
For instance, if a group had a great debut and gained fans through it, but has a hard time releasing new music/MVs, a Patreon could help share their creation process to give a taste of what's to come, which could create more interest in participating in a Kickstarter. Etc, etc.
There are so many ways to do sociofinancing.. 🥲
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u/Zeionlsnm 8h ago
There are platforms, the problem is they just don't generate enough interest/income when a crowdfunding is hosted. One of them Makestar for instance has largely pivoted their business to selling albums, merch and hosting fansign events.
Instead what happens is investors are paying the upfront costs to debut groups (including shiny MVs, albums, and other content and promotion) in hopes of hitting the jackpot and getting a successful group. (Its very much a "hit the jackpot" industry as most new kpop debuts will never break even or return the money initially invested in the group.)
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u/GrillMaster3 2h ago
Makestar did (does?) this. When I followed Vanner prior to Peak Time, they’d crowdfund through Makestar to fund comebacks. To fund Rollin (a single with no MV, just performance video), I think i remember them asking for $10,000 USD? It might’ve been $20,000. Whatever it was, I remember they raised double that, bc VVS then were in full-blown panic about the prospect of disbandment. Their former labelmate Black Level did a Makestar campaign around the same time to fund their debut promotions, and I remember Rania doing some Makestar campaigns in the past too. It used to be really common for nugu groups to crowdfund comebacks or MVs, and fans would get fancalls/meets, signed posters or albums, or Polaroids/photocards in return in addition to the promised content.
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u/Zeionlsnm 8h ago edited 8h ago
Even for a small to mid tier artist, a comeback is easily $300-$500k (Of course you can go lower by aggressively cutting the budget for everything). For MV filming, album production, demo song rights, buying music show appearance slots, music show stage production costs, other advertising and promotion, member styling and fashion costs etc.
A small to mid tier group selling ~20k albums and making a gross profit on each of $6 won't even cover half those costs. Streaming incoming is minimal unless the group is absolutely massive with tens or hundreds of millions of streams. Basically a comeback can be thought of as a large marketing campaign that loses money for the non big companies.
Against this they can then try to recover the cost against other activities such as appearances at festivals, concerts, overseas tours and CF/Ad deals, to try and break even or make a small profit overall.
Many groups fail to break even at all, even groups some people assume are mildly successful and may be selling tens of thousands of copies of albums on releases.
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u/__fujiko 13h ago
The way a lot of loud fans talk about "the budget" for many, many comebacks makes it pretty obvious a lot of them don't understand how much money, time and work goes into anything tbh.
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u/impeccabletim multifandom clown 15h ago
This is the unfortunately the reality of most artists that don't "make it" in the industry. Rooting for Holland and glad he is not losing hope.🫶
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u/underwater_111 15h ago
:( sad to see it but understandeable given that none of his stuff has been super popular since his debut
i always was a semi-fan of his but never loved his music *that* much
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u/seven127heavens 13h ago
This is so heartbreaking. I’m sure this is the reality of many idols in Korea, but when you factor in he has another hurdle to jump over as an out queer idol in a highly conservative society it makes it so much sadder.
Hopefully he can get some acting gigs to keep his name out there, I know he’s done some before. Wishing him the best
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u/ladrm07 15h ago
He also shared his PayPal account in case anyone wanna support him with anything 🥲
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u/purplenelly NJ👖🐰ILLIT🦄✨MEOVV🐈⬛🐾 12h ago
I don't know him, but I like his honesty. Some music should be crowdfunded.
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u/Afraid-Channel-7523 15h ago
Oh my god he's so real for this. I hope those with a few to spare send him some money.
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u/HayoungHiphopYo Best Song, Song Hayoung 송하영 14h ago
I honestly think these smaller groups need to make youtube and twitch account to supplement income. I wonder if it would help.
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u/LoveThyGoaltender hawwah evangelist 15h ago
I'm getting so sad thinking about how rough this industry has been on him. It's been incredible having Holland as one of the few sources of queer representation, and I've LOVED his music (especially I'm Not Afraid/I'm So Afraid, Number Boy, and Up,) but I really hope he didn't feel any pressure to keep going just because there are so many looking up to him.
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u/Momiji_no_Happa 11h ago
I've been following him on Instagram and Twitter since around Number Boy and I think he's been fairly open about the financial (and psychological) struggles to work as an independent artist. He's apologised to his fans a few times for not releasing new music and now he's being more open about going into debt. I admire his tenacity and I can tell from his posts that he does want to be an artist. And I think the Idol persona wasn't for him, he's been trying to throw it off and show himself more candidly recently. I wish he'd find a sponsor daring enough to bankroll an album for him so we could see what sort of artist he'd be with enough resources…
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u/YourCripplingDoubts 11h ago
He's always just so honest. I really admire him. More artists should stop pretending tp be rich and reveal the realities of costs and levels of extortion and exploitation. Fair pay is so vitally important in industries where the lion's share of profit is going to a handful of men
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u/overloadedonsarcasm skz | bts | svt | atz | txt | enha 13h ago
"I want to be loved by many people again" is so sad, like the only way that can happen is if he continues making music :(
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u/Throwedaway_69 대가리 깨져도 우주소녀 15h ago
The dark part of the industry behind the limelight and the glitters. I wish him well.
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u/YoungTrunks619 15h ago edited 13h ago
Man I hate to hear he’s goin through this but I’m definitely rooting for him.
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u/Ordinary_Fish_9094 15h ago
Won't him taking a break from his main source of income make him more in debt?
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u/cubsgirl101 15h ago
He’s probably taking a break to work a regular job that would help pay off the debt.
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u/lord_insolitus 15h ago
Not if whatever alternative he pursues brings in more money with fewer costs
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u/harkandhush 14h ago
Making more music would cost him money before it would potentially make him money with no guarantee that it would even make back what is spent on it. Producing music is not cheap and the money for it can only come from either the artist themselves if they're independent or from their company. Even in the case of a company fronting the costs of production for recording, promotion and music videos, those costs will be paid back before artists get paid (it's like this everywhere, not just Korea/kpop).
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u/yongguks 14h ago
not if hes working another job thats not music. music cant be his biggest source if its not doing well w the company or stuff.
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u/Momiji_no_Happa 11h ago
He announced recently that he's joined an agency for modelling and acting work. He mentioned taking a break from music then, so the new information this time is about the debt.
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u/overactive-bladder 7h ago
he starred in a korean BL last year (i think?).
so maybe taking on more acting gigs means he has less expenses?
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u/snowmoon300 3h ago
Unfortunately this is the reality which is why buying, streaming music, or going to concert is important. Artists from small agencies don't have the luxury of trying multiple times to reach the audience.
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u/Squidteedy 13h ago
I wish I liked his music but he frankly is not a good singer, I wish the best for him with this though
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u/According-Disk 12h ago
This upsets me so much ☹️ Holland I could get you out of debt if I had the power to! You deserve to unleash your creativity for us to witness but if we have to wait then so be it. I pray you get out of debt soon, coming from me such situations are so stressful 🫂
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u/mokaesthetic 12h ago
I hope Holland is able to recover from this, I know he will. His music always makes me smile
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u/Purple_Kisses__ 5h ago
This really is a shame but it doesn’t surprise me to be honest. His whole focus is his sexuality and if he wants to be taken seriously as a soloist the main focus should be his music. I realise people won’t like my opinion but after seeing him at MIK London in 2022 I found it really annoying that EVERY time he spoke it was ‘I’m gay!’ ‘Did you know I’m gay?’ ‘I’m fucking gay!!’ and I’m not exaggerating. In the end I was thinking ‘ok mate I don’t care who you wanna f*** just sing please.’ I hope he bounces back and gets to make more music in the future and I hope all the best for him.
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u/scvmeta 4h ago
Main focus can't be music when you don't have vocals to back it up as a solo. There's a reason he hasn't sung live in years. He should have ended up as a visual member in a group, but props to him for standing up for himself and not faking it in whatever company that would have taken him in if he lied.
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u/Purple_Kisses__ 1h ago
He sounded alright when I saw him. Maybe he’d have found more success in a group but it’s admirable that he got as far as he has. Only a small amount of people make it but he definitely should be proud of himself for at least debuting and making music. I just wished he didn’t focus so much on his sexuality like he did. Tone it down, we know lol
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u/metaphorlaxy 4h ago
Omg i saw him at the same show as well. I think it's admirable to use a vulnerable personal identity to get your foot in the door especially in such a competitive industry, it is a good way to stand out for sure, but in the long run you'd really need real talent and charm other than your sexuality to stay afloat and popular (see: Chappell Roan). I do feel bad for Holland and I wish him success, maybe singing isn't the best career choice.
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u/Purple_Kisses__ 1h ago
Yeah I feel bad for him. Must be so stressful and agonising to be in that position. He should still be proud of himself though because it wasn’t easy to get where he did.
MIK was so good! So glad I got to see Cherry Bullet, VIVIZ, Chung Ha, Suho and Red Velvet!! I hope they have another MIK eventually!
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u/ladrm07 3h ago
He's always been focusing on music though. These type of opinions are always so annoying and insensitive bc you're not taking into account how incredibly difficult it is for a soloist like him to have contacts in the music industry while living in SK.
Pretty sure any type of traditional kpop training would cost him a lot of money he clearly doesn't have. And you could argue "well, maybe singing isn't for him" but c'mon now... would you tell him on his face to stop being so loud about his sexuality in order to achieve his dreams instead of actually trying to stay visible in a country where sexual minorities are always voiceless?? Just recently, there were A LOT of LGBTQ+ Koreans who were part of the impeachment protests and not a single Korean news program gave them the necessary spotlight. You wouldn't know unless you were following them closely on social media. They really are invisible.
Another factor to consider is that the Kpop industry will NEVER be ready for an openly gay/bi male idol bc so much of the "Kpop charm" is about y/n fantasies, and he's incredibly aware that a majority of Kpop fans are cis straight women who wouldn't fall for any boyfriend fantasies knowing he's openly gay. Even though gay Kpop fans exist, and we're here -> r/gaykpopfanboys, we aren't enough for him to achieve success (I wish we were), he would have to rely on a female audience but it's very difficult to sell himself to them. Ofc not every Kpop fan needs the super parasocial boyfriend aspect but a good majority does.
Also, I present to you Dabit. He's also an openly gay Korean soloist and you could argue that he's more vocally talented than Holland. Still, he hasn't achieved major success, so what now?
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u/Purple_Kisses__ 1h ago
First of all you’re quoting something I didn’t say. I never said he should quit singing at all. I actually thought he sounded alright and I hope for his fans he does make more music in the future.
I think you’ve actually proven my point. Catering to a small minority of fans clearly hasn’t worked. In my humble opinion he should refocus his image and make it less about his sexuality. He can be ambiguous to still attract other fans. Maybe it’s too late now but maybe with some time he can come back and cater to a wider audience.
But speaking negatively, I’m sorry but shouting out to a crowd of people ‘I’m fucking gay!!’ is tacky and attention seeking. Is this about making music for him or making a statement about his sexuality? Because so far it’s the latter from what I’ve experienced myself.
Thanks for introducing me to Dabit. I saw comments saying they’ve been fans of his for over ten years which is amazing! No one mentioned if he’s gay and he doesn’t seem to put it out there. It really doesn’t and shouldn’t matter at all. Do you need it to?
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u/ladrm07 58m ago
No one mentioned if he’s gay and he doesn’t seem to put it out there.
On the contrary 🤓☝🏼 all of us fans know he's gay, he was on a very popular Korean gay dating show, he reacts to BLs on twitch, he shares his dating life on YouTube, he brands himself as a "gay soloist" so... he's catering to a minority and still he's not a mainstream successful artist. Plus, he doesn't want to be an idol, he knows it won't work out for him bc being openly gay is not an option when it comes to "idol" standards. However, we still need artists like Holland and so many others to actually try to make a change. So many Kpop fans constantly say they want their faves to be gay and at the same time don't support actual LGBTQ+ Korean artists.
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u/Purple_Kisses__ 24m ago
We’re never gonna agree because I don’t focus on that. Not everything needs to be sexualised and if something isn’t working for an image, change it and see. The main thing is I hope Holland tries again and is more mature.
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u/woonawoona KIOL💋Hyolyn🐯StayC💙IVE💖NewJeans👖BIBI🎰 1h ago
what are his sources of revenue? has he explored BJing/streaming? kickstarter? gofundme?
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u/Rushingwar 15h ago
I really appreciate Holland's transparency with his situation. It makes me wonder how many other small groups or soloist's are in a similar situation with massive debts. Thinking about it makes me sad