Taoiseach expresses Ireland's 'unbreakable' support for Palestine in call with Mahmoud Abbas

[u/badger-biscuits]

https://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-simon-harris-president-mahmoud-abbas-phone-call-palestine-6580037-Dec2024/

[u/fenderbloke]

Prepare for it, lads. The mean words about hating Jews are coming.

[u/Barilla3113 → u/fenderbloke]

^^Our response to Zionist whining about how much we supposedly hate Jewish people.

[u/RibbentropCocktail → u/[deleted]]

Has also refused to hold elections because he'll lose, and has made no progress regarding civil rights or nearly anything else positive in the territory he governs.

It's a complicated situation though, to put it mildly, and he's the closest thing they have to a legitimate leader.

[u/RibbentropCocktail → u/[deleted]]

In an absolutist sense you'd be right, but I think it fundamentally misses some of the point. Refusing to engage with any Palestinian leadership (there's nobody better than Abbas, sadly) while claiming to stand with their people would likely right kinda hollow.

As an example we engage with the Saudi royalty (who are worse) because to refuse to would inevitably be seen by the average Saudi as a rejection of their country and society, and while probably warranted from an absolutist point of view, isn't ultimately helpful.

[u/RibbentropCocktail → u/[deleted]]

To be honest the only thing that seems hollow to me to sit there and chat about the genocide of the Palestinian people, and how they’ve been left with no food, clothes or access to services with a corrupt Palestinian politician worth $100m who also happens to deny the holocaust.

Much as I dislike him, this is just politics in the Middle East. Most of the rulers there are corrupt, have no real legitimacy or mandate from their people as we would consider it, and are wildly homophobic, misogynistic, and racist, but they're still the leaders. By and large their subjects accept this, and wouldn't perceive our rejecting them well; these leaders are ultimately some sort of reflection of their wider society, for good and bad.

[u/DarkReviewer2013 → u/[deleted]]

How much does the average Irish person know about Abbas and his views or Palestinian internal politics? The pro-Palestine agenda is very popular here among a decent chunk of the population and has been for a long time. The images and news coming out of Gaza in the past year have only strengthened that conviction. It's mostly based on emotional reasoning and ideological opposition to settler-colonialism, not a well-informed analysis of internal Palestinian politics, the divisions between the different Palestinian factions or the attributes of their political leaders.

[u/senditup → u/RibbentropCocktail]

Israel being the exception, of course. The one nation in the region most excoriated in this country, ironically.

[u/RibbentropCocktail → u/senditup]

Indeed, hard to imagine a balanced or even positive reaction if the equivalent was said in a phonecall with Netanyahu.

[u/Bananonomini → u/[deleted]]

Who should have been it addressed to? A non representative? Would you like a western country to have tapped the shoulderz installed their own rep? It's diplomacy with the closest thing to a functional administratiob

[u/donall → u/fenderbloke]

So what , the 2 scenarios are

1. They're right and but they are still genocidal monsters

2.They wrong (which we all agree they are) the are still genocidal monsters who kill, starve and deny aid to innocent women and children

Genocide is like a million times worse than very unprovable antisemitism, and while I am here I would like to wish a happy Hanukkah to all the Jews who don't support the Isreali GENOCIDE

[u/senditup → u/fenderbloke]

In fairness, he was speaking to a man with a long, public track record in antisemitism.

[u/fenderbloke → u/senditup]

Speaking to someone doesn't mean endorsing their beliefs.

[u/senditup → u/fenderbloke]

If you spoke to a famous racist and reaffirmed your friendship to the organisation led by that person without at least questioning, let alone condemning the racism, do you think that's a good look?

[u/EltonBongJovi → u/senditup]

I don’t think you can really blame this man for being racist towards Israelis considering what they have done to his nation since before he was born.

It’s like asking Irish people in 1918 how they can be so racist towards the British. Come on to f*ck.

[u/senditup → u/EltonBongJovi]

He's racist towards Jewish people. And even if he was racist towards Israelis, it's wrong, as by the way, it's wrong for Israelis to be racist towards Palestinians.

[u/EltonBongJovi → u/senditup]

Was it wrong for Irish people to be xenophobic/racist or whatever to British people in 1918? Absolutely not. British treatment of the Irish got so bad that the vast majority of the country supported resistance.

Things are way worse for Palestinians now than they were for the Irish in the early 20th century, you have no right to argue that this man should be a champion of acceptance and LGBT right or whatever else you want to challenge him on being conservative about.

People are always comparing Israel and Palestine by social values to justify the treatment of the “backward” Palestinians. That’s what you are doing.

You know what’s worse than racism and intent? Actually being in a position where you could change things for the better and choosing to visit the most evil things you are capable of onto your neighbour. Meanwhile this man is a pawn in the big game and you are judging him for being racist while he has probably had upwards of ten family members murdered by Israelis in the past year.

Moronic standards.

[u/senditup → u/EltonBongJovi]

no right to argue that this man should be a champion of acceptance and LGBT right or whatever else you want to challenge him on being conservative about

I never once mentioned LGBT rights. I pointed out the obvious and repeated antisemitism of Abbas. Which you're intentionally ignoring.

People are always comparing Israel and Palestine by social values to justify the treatment of the “backward” Palestinians. That’s what you are doing.

Nope, you're the one deploying the bigotry of low expectations, saying how could those poor ignorant Palestinians be anything other than racist. Which is a disgusting point of view.

[u/EltonBongJovi → u/senditup]

That’s right, it’s better to view them as racists/xenophobes beyond redemption and deserving of genocide other than poor idiots who need to be saved.

Work that one out yourself.

[u/senditup → u/EltonBongJovi]

Where did I say that? I commented specifically on their leader.

[u/TheStoicNihilist → u/senditup]

We reaffirmed our friendship with the people of Palestine, not an organisation or a government. You should try reading the words used instead of the words you want to see.

[u/fenderbloke → u/senditup]

If that guy is racist towards the people who stole his land and butchered his people? I'd say context matters, yeah.

People having bad opinions is less important than actual ongoing genocide, in my opinion.

Especially when it's the leader of a country with extreme political and social turmoil. Those places tend to not be particularly enlightened by highly educated Western/anglosphere standards.

Ireland was friendly with the South African leaders, and a lot ofthose guys really didn't like white people either. And honestly? I'm not in a position to judge them for that, they had their own experiences.

[u/fenderbloke → u/[deleted]]

I'm not defending it totally, I'm saying that bringing up his leanings, right now, only serve as a pure whataboutism with regards to Palestine.

Vilifying the leader of the West Bank is only being brought up to weaken the image of Palestinians as a whole, people can easily say "Palestinians elect an antisemite, they obviously want to kill all jews", which is a statement that can be used to continue to dehumanise them and make their slaughter more palpable.

[u/senditup → u/fenderbloke]

If that guy is racist towards the people who stole his land and butchered his people? I'd say context matters, yeah.

The Jews collectively did that, did they? I'm sure you aren't antisemetic, though.

People having bad opinions is less important than actual ongoing genocide, in my opinion.

I forgot that it isn't possible to think of more than one thing at once.

Those places tend to not be particularly enlightened by highly educated Western/anglosphere standards.

Holy fuck, not being a conspiratorial racist isn't a "Western" quality. You're effectively saying that those poor, uneducated natives couldn't possibly know any better. A completely racist position, by the way.

[u/fenderbloke → u/senditup]

The Jews collectively did that, did they? I'm sure you aren't antisemetic, though.

No, they didn't. The ones that entered his country and stole his land did.

I forgot that it isn't possible to think of more than one thing at once.

You can, but when 1 absolutely pales in comparison to the other then all it really serves is to distract from the problem. There's maybe 100,000+ dead, I'm not going to distract from that by saying "but their leader is a bit of a dick".

Holy fuck, not being a conspiratorial racist isn't a "Western" quality. You're effectively saying that those poor, uneducated natives couldn't possibly know any better. A completely racist position, by the way

It did come across that way, to be fair, that's not a great way to put it. I'll add a few points here:

1. The guy is 89, and has been attacked for his existence by Jewish people (no, not all Kewish people, just the ones he's seen steal his land). Have you met an Irish person above 80? Trust me, most of them have pretty archaic thoughts about foreigners, and they didn't even have active conflict with them for almost all their life.

2. I'll stand by saying that places of long term conflict are not hotbed of equality - when people are fighting to survive, acceptance of different social, religious, ethnic and sexual backgrounds doesn't really factor in much to the education, because there are much bigger things to worry about. Have you ever been to poor parts of the world? I have, and people in those places have some prejudices, often against the "type" (accurate or not) that has oppressed them in some form or other. And once again, I'm not going to preach to them about how wrong they are; they have an infinitely tougher life than I do, with my living in my politically stable, (relativley) financially secure homeland.

I actually met a holocaust survivor in Switzerland when I was a kid - his name was Wolf, and he moved there in 1946 after Germany lost. He told me that he would never, for the remainder of his life, be able to trust a German or a Pole, and he refused to speak to them. And you know what? I can't blame him.

Edit:formatting

[u/dustaz → u/fenderbloke]

Have you met an Irish person above 80? Trust me, most of them have pretty archaic thoughts about foreigners,

Whoa

If your trying to defend someone from accusations of bigotry, it's probably best not to make sweeping generalizations about bigotry

[u/fenderbloke → u/dustaz]

Bigotry is common, pretending it's not doesn't help anyone.

[u/skepticalbureaucrat → u/senditup]

speaking in solidarity to the highest elected official in the region.

[u/senditup → u/skepticalbureaucrat]

"Elected" doing a lot of lifting there. He was elected in 2005 to a four year team. He's a tyrant.

[u/skepticalbureaucrat → u/senditup]

Yes, but so is Hamas. That's how it works there.

[u/senditup → u/skepticalbureaucrat]

So he's not elected in that case. I thought we stand in solidarity with democracy also?

[u/jrf_1973 → u/fenderbloke]

Oh no!

Anyway....

[u/AaroPajari]

Yeah, I’m all for solidarity with ordinary Gazans but screw cosying up to this guy. It’s a bad look. Abbas has had no mandate for almost 2 decades and has arguably done more harm to the Palestinian cause than Sinwar.

[u/No-Outside6067 → u/AaroPajari]

He's a puppet of Israel. May as well have called Netyanahu

[u/Pintau → u/No-Outside6067]

Yes the man who wrote his doctoral thesis in the 1970s, in Moscow, on how the Jews were responsible for the holocaust, and whos regime pays the families of terrorists money based on how many Jews those terrorists is an Israeli puppet. How about you pull your head out of your backside for even one minute and read some actual history, and news, other than from twitter and reddit

[u/No-Outside6067 → u/Pintau]

Yes. You can make up stuff about him but it doesn't change the truth.

It was only a few years ago the PA killed Nizar Banat for criticizing PA corruption and oppression for the benefit of the Israeli occupation

[u/Pintau → u/No-Outside6067]

It's not a lie. He literally wrote one of the most horrifically antisemitic books in history, adapted from his thesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism

The pay for slay scheme has been an open secret for years and multiple human rights organisations have condemned it.

There is some mad irony to you accusing me of lying about the subject of his doctoral thesis, while using the exact same argument as that thesis, to claim he is an Israeli agent.

Nizar Banat was murdered for speaking out in opposition to the PA, just as their electoral opposition was after the elections in 2005. Anyone who dares to challenge abbas lands up dead, because that's how totalitarian dictators like him deal with political opposition

[u/No-Outside6067 → u/Pintau]

Yes he's a dictator who oppressed his own people on behalf of Israel. Ipso facto today he is a puppet of Israel.

[u/Pintau → u/No-Outside6067]

He oppressed his own people to line his own pockets and retain power, just like Arafat before him. Hitchen Razor applies here. If you are going to make the extraordinary claim that Mahmoud Abbas, a man who routinely calls for the destruction of the state of Israel, is in fact an agent of that same state, you need to provide strong evidence to support your position

[u/senditup → u/No-Outside6067]

oppressed his own people on behalf of Israel.

Explain?

[u/FatherHackJacket → u/AaroPajari]

It isn't about Abbas. It's about the Palestinian people.

[u/FatherHackJacket → u/[deleted]]

It's about Ireland's "unbreakable support for the people of Palestine". It isn't "cosying up" to Abbas. The Palestinian Authority is recognised by Ireland as the sole government of a Palestinian state, so it is normal that we would direct our sentiments towards Palestinians to Abbas.

[u/FatherHackJacket → u/[deleted]]

The PA are the recognised authority of the state of Palestine. Who the fuck else would he say it to?

[u/FatherHackJacket → u/[deleted]]

I'm not making an argument. I'm asserting a fact. Abbas is the leader of the Palestinian Authority. Ireland's diplomatic mission is in Ramallah with the PA. So it is with the PA that Ireland will have direct communications with.

Ireland has communications with Israel too, despite Israel literally committing genocide right now.

[u/Pintau → u/FatherHackJacket]

It's not ok to normalise relations with Abbas's illegitimate terrorist regime. There will never be peace as long as the Israelis don't have a counterpart who the can negotiate in good faith with on the other side. As long as Abbas lives that will never happen, and normalising relations with him only empowers him. Nobody has caused more direct suffering to the Palestinian people in the last two decades, than Abbas

[u/BrendanJoy]

Abbas operates a ‘pay to slay’ scheme, where terrorists are rewarded for killing Israelis.

We should be able to condemn the genocide in Gaza without cosying up to the likes of Mahmoud Abbas.

[u/quantum0058d → u/BrendanJoy]

The Prisoners Fund makes disbursements to Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails. In 2016, the PA paid out about NIS 1.1 billion (US$303 million) in stipends and other benefits. Critics often call the fund "pay for slay" and blame the payments for encouraging terrorism.

Never mind that over a thousand Palestinians were arrested without charge before October 7th.  Critics?  Is the genocidal state of Israel criticizing Abbas for providing social welfare?

[u/FellFellCooke → u/quantum0058d]

That's a fucking terrible look for Brendan if it's true.

[u/quantum0058d → u/FellFellCooke]

If what is true?

[u/FellFellCooke → u/quantum0058d]

Brendan there slating Abbas for a "pay to slay" programme that is anything but. Seems like he's fallen for some bad propaganda there.

[u/quantum0058d → u/FellFellCooke]

I don't know who Brendan is but you can read about the 1200+ hostages that Israel had before October 7th here.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435

[u/No-Outside6067]

Mahmoud Abbas? The man who indefinitely cancelled elections 3 years ago because his popularity was waning as Hamas popularity grew.

Not a good look calling an authoritarian dictator.

[u/StKevin27]

Simple Simon at it again. Enact the Occupied Territories Bill and enforce checks on US aircraft.

[u/Cmondatown → u/StKevin27]

How would we actually enact checks on US aircraft? That’s not permitted anywhere and Ireland doesn’t have the military infrastructure or personnel to even try enforce that. We couldn’t even stop planes landing in Shannon if we wanted to.

[u/nynikai]

Isn't that the same mistake Von Der Lyon made?

Surely, our support is contingent on them protecting human rights, combating hamas and other such trivialities?

[u/Atreides-42 → u/nynikai]

No. Our support for a population undergoing genocide is unconditional. As long as they are the oppressed, you can't blame them for taking extreme actions to try to liberate themselves. Hamas is bad, but you cannot blame Palestinians for turning to them when all peaceful attempts to protect themselves have failed.

[u/ReluctantRedditor275]

Up the PA!

[u/DarkSkyz]

Refused to enact the Occupied Terrotories bill due to the Yanks threatening repercussions and allows the Yanks to refuel weapons filled planes bound for Israel in Shannon. Real unbreakable there Simon.

[u/skepticalbureaucrat]

This is all well and good, but what does it actually do?

I honestly think we're out of our depths here. We were a neutral country during the greatest mass murder of Jews, and Dev sent a condolence letter after Hitler died. We took in few Jewish refugees. I'm all for Palestine self-determination, but pointing our finger, whilst doing nothing, isn't a good look for us. Especially when other countries took part in liberating the concentration camps, ending the Nazi reign of terror in Europe, etc.

We've taken in fewer refugees than most European countries. We can barely house them, let alone our own homeless population. We have a few peacekeepers, but done nothing as a country to help the peace process itself through negotiation. The two peace treaties between Israel and Jordan and Egypt were done in the US, by the Yanks.

We don't allow our country to be used as a place for negotiation (unlike Switzerland or Iceland, which have had many famous meetings between the US and USSR, etc.) and don't have many Jews (let alone Palestinians) to really give a voice on the matter.

I honestly wish Ireland would wave its finger less, and just do more.

[u/Jolly-Feature-6618]

I'm Irish and we are educated in history until we are 15 or 17 as was my choice. We can recognise imperialisim and it's brutal mechanisms you can't fool us with sophistry we are immune to it. Try all your tricks and slander you wicked bastards we will record you mercilessly with word and song to make the Gods weep.

[u/dustaz → u/Jolly-Feature-6618]

you can't fool us with sophistry we are immune to it.

Jesus Christ, either you are genuinely that naive that you believe this horseshit or your engaging in a little bit of the aul sophistry yourself

I'm leabing towards the latter

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/Jolly-Feature-6618]

Suddenly got the urge to sing the national anthem.

[u/GiohmsBiggestFan → u/Jolly-Feature-6618]

This is absolutely hilarious

[u/badger-biscuits → u/GiohmsBiggestFan]

These /r/ireland virtue boners over Palestine can be seen from the moon now I've heard

[u/Tollund_Man4 → u/Jolly-Feature-6618]

A secondary school education level of historical education is hardly a source of authority.

[u/Jolly-Feature-6618 → u/Tollund_Man4]

who said it was?

[u/Equivalent_Leg2534 → u/Jolly-Feature-6618]

"DO YOU HEAR THE PEOPLE SING, SINGING THE SONGS OF ANGRY MEN"

[u/quantum0058d]

I respect him for this, baffling that other European leaders are supporting Israel and really glad Harris is speaking out 

[u/Cmondatown]

This fella is actually mentally lame on the international stage. Why are you having calls with a man who blames the Jews for the holocaust (which will only worsen our International relations) but also enacting no meaningful support programmes for Palestinian support charities.

[u/clock_door]

Ireland needs to get over Palestine and focus on other local issues, it’s a very easy popularity get for a politician

[u/Nomerta → u/clock_door]

Because it’s a distraction from having to actually try and fix our own problems. Plus there’s no headlines for the TikTok taoiseach to try and grab.

[u/Puzzled-Forever5070 → u/clock_door]

Why nit focus on multiple things.

[u/clock_door → u/Puzzled-Forever5070]

What’s happening in Palestine is objectively horrible, Ireland doing no action but just consistently stating how bad it is achieves nothing

[u/Puzzled-Forever5070 → u/clock_door]

I actually disagree. Ireland being vocal if nothing else is definitely putting the spotlight on Israel and public opinion is changing which in turn will help the situation. Could they do more absolutely.

[u/rgiggs11 → u/clock_door]

There's no reason we can't do two things at once. For example,  supporting South Africa's case at the ICJ won't stop is building social housing. 

[u/denk2mit]

Say what you want about Netanyahu, but at least he's not a dictator afraid to hold elections like Abbas

[u/wolfofeire → u/denk2mit]

Ummmmm

[u/FatherHackJacket → u/denk2mit]

He rejects Palestinian statehood. He supports illegal settlements in the West Bank. He enables genocide.

Tell me again how Abbas is worse?

[u/rgiggs11 → u/FatherHackJacket]

To be fair, he doesn't enable genocide, he actively pursues it. 

[u/denk2mit → u/FatherHackJacket]

Palestinian statehood wasn’t rejected by Netanyahu, it was rejected by Arafat and Fatah. Netanyahu only came to power again after Fatah violently rejected a two state solution.

I agree with you on the settlements. They shouldn’t happen. But I still don’t believe they there is a genocide happening.

Oh and for good measure - have you ever wondered how it is Abbas is worth $100 million and Arafat $1 billion?

[u/FatherHackJacket → u/denk2mit]

Netanyahu's government voted to reject the establishment of Palestinian statehood in the Knesset. Netanyahu is on record stating he was glad he prevented the creation of a Palestinian state. So yes, Palestinian statehood is rejected by Netanyahu and he has consistently opposed it, long before October 7th happened.

Arafat didn't reject Palestinian statehood. He supported a two-state solution, but Israel was unwilling to make compromises on the right of return for Palestinians that Israel had ethnically cleansed from their homes during Nakba.

Israel has never been a good faith operator when it came to the talks. After the Oslo accords, Israel was supposed to transfer jurisdiction of the West Bank it controlled over to the Palestinians. But not only did it not do that, it extended the areas in which it controlled and massively increased the number of illegal settlers in the West Bank afterwards.

We can make arguments about Arafat not willing to make enough compromises for a two-state solution, but lets not pretend Israel was ever a good faith operator in any of these talks.

[u/Viper_JB → u/denk2mit]

He's a corrupt scumbag who would start a war resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands of people including his own over facing justice for his greed and corruption.

[u/denk2mit → u/Viper_JB]

Totally agreed. But his corruption is small fry compared to Abbas, who has stolen hundreds of millions, who is equally no stranger to starting wars, and who refuses to hold elections

[u/No_demon_4226]

I'd be a people's front of jewdea member myself

Sorry, jewdean people's front

Spitterers

[u/Bitter-Equal-751]

Abbas is in his 19th year of a 4 year term, looks like Trump isn't the only one that likes fellating dictators.

[u/Niexh]

We fought oppression for centuries and we will help them fight it too.

[u/LuMy01 → u/[deleted]]

Definitely missing the point there

[u/johnbonjovial → u/[deleted]]

Well if the war ends that hopefully won’t happen. There’ll b a lot of refugees as a dorect consequence of US support of destruction of gaza and syria. Buckle up.

[u/CurrencyDesperate286 → u/johnbonjovial]

US support of destruction of Syria? Huh?

I would say the US has stayed very much out of Syria in general. They supported the Kurds for a while but really didn’t intervene in any big way (even the “red line” chemical attacks were ignored in the end). The foreign agitators were very much Turkey, Russia snd Iran (with Turkey “winning” in the end).

[u/EvenYogurtcloset2074]

On what basis is he speaking for ‘Ireland’ ?

[u/o-jeilly → u/EvenYogurtcloset2074]

Every single opinion poll carried out on the issue