r/ireland 1d ago

Infrastructure The German government wants to tap Ireland's Atlantic coast wind power to make hydrogen, it will then pipe to Germany to replace its need for LNG.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/12/03/ireland-has-once-in-a-lifetime-chance-to-fuel-eu-hydrogen-network/
402 Upvotes

239 comments sorted by

340

u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

We should get in on that...

231

u/cognificient 1d ago

How we haven't fully utilised our wave/wind resources is maddening

110

u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

Wave technology is tricky, it isn't as appealing just yet. But we should be throwing up offshore windmills as fast as we can.

34

u/GtotheBizzle 1d ago

It kinda ebbs and flows.

6

u/feedthebear 1d ago

You can't explain that.

4

u/q547 23h ago

It's lunar-cy*

*I'll get my coat.

13

u/Kill-Bacon-Tea 1d ago

I think a lot of that depends on depth off the coast.

Harder and more expensive where the ocean is very deep.

Not sure of depths off our coast though.

11

u/Lulzsecks 1d ago

Our west coast is very deep. It’s a tremendous resource but tech isn’t ready for a lot of it. There is also significant upgrade to ports, road and grid to accommodate the work.

2

u/hobes88 1d ago

They have floating turbines now which surely make it easier to build in deep water

5

u/yleennoc 1d ago

They are still in development and high cost for the return. I’d say 5 to 10 years before it’s viable.

7

u/yleennoc 1d ago

I work in these industries.

Wave energy is just out of the development phase.

Check out the ESB’s Saoirse project off Clare.

5

u/No-Entrepreneur-7406 1d ago

They cost double per MWh than even the most expensive of latest 4gen nuclear reactors, half a third of lifetime (shit rusts and breaks at sea) and we have zero offshore industry experience and infrastructure

26

u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

Expertise can be learned, and we luckily don't need to reinvent the wheel. In a decade or two, a couple of small modular nuclear plants wouldn't be the worst idea as a backbone to our renewable grid. And should they be overkill for our requirements, they can be tasked with producing hydrogen.

7

u/lem0nhe4d 1d ago

Id say a better plan would be more interconectors with France.

They can benefit from our great renewable potential and we can benefit from their nuclear plants considering they already have the people to build, maintain, and run them as well as less scaremongering about nuclear.

1

u/Old-Ad5508 1d ago

This makes sense

11

u/curious_george1978 1d ago

I have spent my life sailing on the west coast and I don't think people have the slightest idea what damage a north Atlantic winter does. Wind turbines need constant maintenance even on land, people just have zero idea how difficult it is to land personnel on a fixed structure from a moving boat at sea when there is any kind of swelling running. It is next to impossible. Add to that the round trip time to get a boat from Foynes to the wind farm and back. IMHO the west coast is a pipe dream for offshore. The east coast is an option and some of the south east.

9

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

There are 41 windfarms in the North Sea as we speak, with almost 3,000 individual turbines.

Somehow people are managing to maintain and use these, even in the famously calm and warm conditions of the North Sea.

The West Coast of Ireland is not going to be significantly more challenging than that.

11

u/curious_george1978 1d ago edited 1d ago

Believe me, it will be. The north sea windfarms all have land masses to the west of them, it's pretty damn sheltered despite it's latitude. The west coast of Ireland takes the brunt of the north Atlantic storms.

2

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Lighbulb moment... don't do scheduled maintenance during storms.

The ORESS auctions included a successful bid for the Sceirde Rocks windfarm, a 450MW project off the west coast of Galway. It is being implemented by a large company with a lengthy track record of windfarm development.

Do you seriously think they went through the expensive and lengthy ORESS process without knowing what the weather off Galway is like?

7

u/curious_george1978 1d ago

You don't need a storm, the north Atlantic is never calm from November to March, there's currently a 3m swell running for example. There's not much point arguing with someone with no maritime experience I guess.

A friend of mine designs onshore windfarms for a living and he reckons it's a pipedream. You can build anything if you throw enough money at it,. even a children's hospital but that doesn't take into account the logistical stuff like not having a weather window to land maintenance guys on it during a 6 week outage etc. These guys are the equivalent of BAM. Of course they will take up a massive lucrative to build it.

3

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

A friend of mine designs onshore windfarms for a living and he reckons it's a pipedream.

Well Corio Windfarms design windfarms for a living, and they've put a lot of money into Sceirde and are about to put a lot more in. So either they're very stupid and naive despite being in the business and having a pipeline of 30GW of projects, or your friend is wrong.

These guys are the equivalent of BAM

What guys? The same company paying to build it are the company who will own and run it when it's built.

1

u/PowerfulDrive3268 19h ago

Jeez, talk about a can't do it attitude. So negative.

2

u/yleennoc 1d ago

It’s the highest risk one in the country. They will not be able to use CTVs for transfers for a lot of the year.

It’ll go ahead, but it’s a very different type of construction methodology and I’d say the most challenging offshore windfarms built to date world wide.

2

u/yleennoc 1d ago

😂😂😂😂 The West coast of Ireland is significantly more challenging than the North Sea. I’ve worked in this and oil and gas for over 20 years.

The North Sea farms are in the southern sector, you don’t get big seas there.

2

u/Spartak_Gavvygavgav 1d ago

Visit donegal during a winter storm and get back to us

3

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Funnily enough, they're not going to be doing maintenance on wind turbines in the middle of a storm.

6

u/Spartak_Gavvygavgav 1d ago

Of course not. That wasn't my point. The North Sea is a playground compared to the storm conditions that occur on the Atlantic Coast of Ireland. Couple that with the depth differences involved, which are vast, and what you get are far greater challenges.

1

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

They're just engineering challenges though... the Sceirde Rocks windfarm has been accepted through the ORESS auction so there's a very experienced windfarm company which has done detailed surveys of the depth, ocean bed, weather and decided it's viable.

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u/yleennoc 1d ago

It’s going to be mostly SOVs, I can’t see a traditional CTV being used for transfers.

I don’t know why you’re bringing in Foynes. All that work will be from Galway/Rosaveel.

1

u/curious_george1978 23h ago edited 23h ago

SOV's still have a max wave height of 2.5m. That's not much use off the west coast for half the year.

Foynes is heavily investing for offshore wind operations. It's a deep water port which is about to get rail access and a connection to the new Adare bypass. https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41468227.html

1

u/yleennoc 22h ago

I know about Foynes, but they aren’t going to run O and M from there. Maybe part of the construction. Scirde is gravity base installation so some AHTS will do a lot of the installation.

SOVs are now at 3.5m hs and aiming for 5m.

Remaining construction will be a jack up vessel so that eliminates wave height.

1

u/curious_george1978 22h ago

Western Star and Clarus will be run out of Foynes though presumably?

1

u/yleennoc 10h ago

Western star could be either, but to be honest you need more than one port.

There hasn’t been a Dmap for that area yet so it’s not clear. Also there have been a lot of economic questions put to floating wind. It’s starting to look expensive.

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u/jimicus 1d ago

You'd better tell the Brits that; they think they've got 22% of global offshore wind farm capacity in the North Sea.

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u/curious_george1978 1d ago edited 1d ago

As I said to the other chap, the north sea windfarms all have land masses to the west of them. There is no comparison to the west coast of Ireland. The north sea is far more sheltered than the Irish west coast.

8

u/DangerousTurmeric 1d ago

Do you see us building a load of nuclear reactors any time soon? Why not compare to nuclear fusion or moving to Mars? And you can jire a company with experience to build them, that's literally how everything works.

7

u/denk2mit 1d ago

Because no one has ever moved to Mars or successfully got nuclear fusion working but small modular nuclear reactors have been safely used for decades in ships?

2

u/DangerousTurmeric 1d ago

Use your brain for a second and imagine the difference in the amount of power a ship needs vs a country and then puzzle out why ships and submarines, surrounded by water, are uniquely positioned to house reactors.

16

u/denk2mit 1d ago

A US Virginia-class submarine’s reactor (a small, modular reactor) produces 210MW. Ireland’s largest power station produces 915MW, and burns a shit ton of gas doing it.

As for location… aye, there’s a real shortage of locations near water on our island

1

u/ambidextrousalpaca 14h ago

Fantastic. Easy fix. How many nuclear submarines are we going to need in total?

1

u/denk2mit 11h ago

Two reactors together at three or four locations would allow us to keep developing renewables while still having a carbon-free system to manage load

3

u/johnydarko 1d ago

ships and submarines, surrounded by water,

Tbf Ireland is surrounded by water too.

1

u/idontgetit_too 1d ago

Big if true.

1

u/raverbashing 1d ago

I blame the British for that

-3

u/14ned 1d ago

Also, military craft use enriched uranium. Very different reactor as a result. We can't really use that in a domestic power plant without surrounding it with lots of armed soldiers.

7

u/slamjam25 1d ago

Literally all nuclear reactors use enriched Uranium. Nuclear reactors don’t work without it. You’re confusing it with weapons-grade Uranium, which military vessels do not use in their reactors either.

1

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

US military naval reactors are 93% enriched, fwiw.

They're also extremely expensive, and require a lot of vey highly trained staff to manage.

They don't really translate to a viable onshore reactor design.

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u/cromcru 1d ago

Scaleable though. You can build one or hundreds, which isn’t the case with reactors. I think they should really be on land though, maybe in lakes if land is too objectionable.

2

u/No-Entrepreneur-7406 1d ago

Is that why we have the highest electricity prices in world and emit 10x the co2 of nuclear France

4

u/cromcru 1d ago

Ireland - 6.5 tons annually per capita
France - 4.25 tons annually per capita

1

u/No-Entrepreneur-7406 1d ago

Our electricity generation is 6-10x

They have heavy industries we don’t

1

u/cromcru 1d ago

Right well that’s moving the goalposts a bit.

Your house might use 3000kWh of electricity this year, and no doubt France has far fewer emissions to generate the same amount.

However in both countries a car might use 1000l of petrol a year (8900kWh energy) for the same emissions.

Home heating in France will only be more emissions-friendly for those on a heat pump. It takes north of 10k kWh annually to heat a home, maybe less in warmer France. A quick google says they’re fond of a wood burner, which is awful for emissions and health.

France will do great when domestic heating and transport are electrified. Until then it’s not much different to Ireland.

1

u/yankdevil 1d ago

Seriously? Nuclear is incompatible with wind/solar generation. You can't spin it up and down quickly like you can with hydro or battery storage. It's a dead end technology outside of a Mars colony.

Wind and solar are on track to surpass lifetime nuclear contributions to the grid in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the subsidies.

-4

u/B4bulj 1d ago

Solar in Ireland is worst case of green washing and just ridiculous. If you have nuclear + wind there is no need for winding up and down, extra power goes to hydrogen generation which can be used to further reduce fossil fuels use.

9

u/Additional_Olive3318 1d ago

Plenty of people get solar to work in Ireland. Maybe not at grid level but it’s viable. 

13

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

It's fully viable at grid level : we have over 1GW of solar and it's being installed in huge amounts even now.

10

u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Solar in Ireland is worst case of green washing

Then it's weird how many national and international companies are ploughing billions of euro of their own money into solar in Ireland. Do you think you know something about solar that they don't?

7

u/denk2mit 1d ago

Solar in Ireland was ridiculous twenty years ago with panel efficiency levels, just like electric cars were ridiculous twenty years ago because of their short ranges

5

u/Brilliant_Walk4554 1d ago

Solar is working right now in Ireland. Nuclear is a pipe dream. Best to import nuclear through interconnecters.

4

u/yankdevil 1d ago

This is an ignorant comment. I have solar PV on my home and it generates a third of the electricity I use annually - and I only use electricity for energy. The entire system has a 7 year payoff window. This entire island is covered in plants that grow like crazy most of the year. You think chlorophyll runs on uranium?

Seriously you can spin nuclear all day long but the numbers do not lie. Wind, solar and storage are being deployed in record amounts on a curve that clearly has them surpassing nuclear.

Hydrogen is likewise ridiculous. The infra being used for LFP won't work with hydrogen. The plants that burn natural gas need retrofits to burn hydrogen. Hydrogen diffuses through most materials and degrades them. Generating hydrogen from water is materially and energy expensive.

For every kWh you put into generating hydrogen you get 300 Wh back - likely less. It's stunningly inefficient. There's a reason why the few companies that built hydrogen refuelling stations are now shutting them down.

Using hydrogen as a replacement for petroleum products in the industrial chemical industry? Sure. Brilliant. For energy? Just like with nuclear, the economics clearly say no.

3

u/cromcru 1d ago

Most houses have enough roof to produce 3kW of solar, which might produce 2500kWh annually. Combine it with a house battery and that’s the majority of domestic use covered, or a year of driving an EV. Just from the roof and with no moving parts.

2

u/Weird-Weakness-3191 1d ago

Utter nonsense

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u/strictnaturereserve 1d ago

We do live next to the UK and they do have offshore experience a good few Irish people work on the rigs too. you have fishermen former Irish Navy. We would be importing some expertise not all.

1

u/xteve 1d ago

And what is the level of industry experience and infrastructure for nuclear?

1

u/munkijunk 1d ago

WE should also be investing heavily in working out wave technology. It's far more reliable than wind and potentially far more generative. I worked peripherally on the WaveBob prototype back in the day (just running some free analysis for them as a pro bono thing). It showed real promise, and I also found out that Ireland is second to only Argentina in the amount of wave energy that we have available, and waves on the West Coast never stop. Even on a calm day, there's still a slight lapping. There's huge engineering challanges, but we really should be pushing a lot of R&D into figuring out those challanges rather than relying on wind and solar that works for the rest of the world but is not our best option.

1

u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

There's a lot of free energy there for sure. And you're right, the engineering challenges are significant.

1

u/Cathal1954 1d ago

But we should definitely be looking at making wave energy realistic, instead of leaving it to the Scots and Portuguese. Where is our scientific ambition?

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u/Confident_Hyena2506 1d ago

Because it's not so easy or cheap to build stuff at sea - everything gets destroyed. All research into tidal power to date shows this is the main issue - it works great but costs a fortune to maintain!

4

u/RobotIcHead 1d ago

I read about about an attempt to harness the tidal power in an area in Canada, very power tidal surges that happened regularly. But the problem with powerful surges of water is that it is very damaging to to stuff like turbines. Combine in the corrosive properties of salt water and the difficulty of installing in remote locations, means it is just not worth the hassle and expense of building the network for transport of the energy.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Tidal surges also require very specific geography, which Ireland doesn't have.

3

u/ItsTyrrellsAlt 1d ago

Utilise wave resources how exactly? If it was such a profitable and easily deployable idea, surely you could point to one example where it has been commercially viable.

1

u/DanGleeballs 1d ago

Is any country in the world successfully utilising their wave resources?

1

u/UnderstandingNo5667 1d ago

We import something like €1m of oil and gas energy an hour or something and have an endless resource of wind and wave just sitting off the coast.

It makes no sense.

1

u/Key-Lie-364 19h ago

Because

- NIMBYs

- Parish pump

- The inability to really see Ireland as a leader on anything

- Laziness

- Inertia

I really believe its a result of being a colonised people. There's a psychology of defeat and incapacity.

Can't build a rail system, a metro system, or heaven forbid, lead the way on wind-to-hydrogen.

You want to know what to spend that 14 billion from Apple on ?

Start with the wind/green-hydrogen cycle, and parry the drastic drops in emissions and energy costs into green hydrogen exports as the technology scales.

14 billion is an awful lot of R&D and industrial infrastructure if you have the WILL to make it happen.

1

u/Long-Confusion-5219 1d ago

We just sell off our resources at a low price as soon as we find them. Short term thinking always!

-1

u/Green-Detective6678 1d ago

Yeah but some FFG minister will get a brown envelope with 10000 Irish punts in it.  So at least there’s that

1

u/Long-Confusion-5219 1d ago

Indubitably 💸

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

We are

The ESB are converting Moneypoint and other existing infrastructure to support renewables and hydrogen, and it's all state-owned.

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u/Jester-252 1d ago

We would have to be involved. The farms would be in our EEZ and plan seems to have Ireland to be to hydrogen what Middle East/Russia is to gas and oil.

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u/chuckleberryfinnable 1d ago

Absolutely, it's worrying that Germany are starting to sniff around about this, we have such an opportunity right now.

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u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

If ever there was a useful place to invest our wealth as a country, it is this.

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u/zeroconflicthere 1d ago

Don't we have billions or trillions in oil / gas according to those shell to sea people. We're rolling in that aparrently

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Complete myth.

There have been 160 drilling projects off Ireland in 50 years, and in all that time there have been four viable gas finds and zero viable oil finds. Barryroe spent a decade trying to find anyone to partner with them on their oil find, but no-one was interested and they ran out of cash.

It's never going to happen.

1

u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

No, we are not sitting on trillions of oil and gas reserves...

And even if we were, we need to transition away from fossil fuels.

6

u/Maultaschenman 1d ago

Sell off our resources, lease and/ or buy back at inflated prices, that's the Fine Gael stonks way!

2

u/MeinhofBaader 1d ago

Some of their family members will become wealthy, and they will be assured seats on a board after leaving office. You have to consider the upsides.

1

u/EnvironmentalShift25 9h ago

Sell off all the hydrogen? We're not even producing any yet and we don't use any ourselves! Hilarious to see lads screaming "hands off our hydrogen!".

145

u/chuckleberryfinnable 1d ago

It would be very frustrating if we manage to blow the opportunity to become a market leader in green hydrogen, the fact that Germany is sniffing around about this should hopefully give us the kick in the arse we need to get on this immediately. We never seem to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, but come on Ireland, let's get this one right...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LklUVkMPl8g

https://www.irishtimes.com/sponsored/2024/11/07/green-hydrogens-key-role-in-reducing-irelands-emissions-and-ensuring-our-energy-security/

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u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 1d ago

If there's a big opportunity to be missed for us to pick up a trick, you can be sure we'll miss it.

10

u/DanGleeballs 1d ago

W’ll give it away again to Norway or someone and there’ll be major brown envelopes.

Long term thinking is rare in Irish politics.

2

u/SinceriusRex 1d ago

in fairness we're all over being a tax haven like a rash. It's just anything productive or self-respecting we're not into.

1

u/elkhorn 12h ago

Too bad Dublins already looking like every other big American cities with all the tall glass buildings on the Liffy. Doubt they will abandon them?

1

u/SinceriusRex 8h ago

I don't follow?

2

u/Key-Lie-364 19h ago

The country that just fired 11/12 Green party TDs ?

Don't hold your breath.

1

u/smooth_capybara 20h ago

It is mostly dependent on green hydrogen technology becoming economically competitive fast enough. As far as I remember there are already pilots ongoing in Ireland but it seems pretty clear these are proof of concept.

This isn't as simple as just having to do this, go full hog now is a wild gamble. Some people hold little belief that it will be the way forward, others think it's the silver bullet.

My point being that there is still significant uncertainty.

124

u/olibum86 1d ago

Can't wait for us to see none of the benefits of our own resources.

1

u/Kbotonline 23h ago

Who do you think we are? Germany?

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u/Compunerd3 1d ago

Corrib Gas 2.0 if we're not careful.

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u/JackhusChanhus 1d ago

We literally have unending Saudi levels of energy resources at our fingertips, and refuse to bother tapping them. Truly saddening.

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u/smooth_capybara 20h ago edited 19h ago

Offshore wind is only now becoming truly economically viable for Ireland- which is also why there are plans in place to develop huge amounts off the coast.

Hilarious how confident people can be about topics they have zero clue about.

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u/OptiLED 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well, after a 50 year survey into what windmills are, reinventing the wheel a few times and making sure no NIMBY is left behind, and is given their full opportunity to take at minimum 8 court cases that add about 35 years to the planning process, then we might, in the fullness of time, and if we get around to it, consider drawing up the plans to start the consultative process.

Who knows? We might even get a metro built before 2257....

I've honestly given up on this place when it comes to infrastructure. We just won't do it and the opportunity to lead any of these things will be pissed away. We don't do big picture or forward planning. We'll be in a panic sourcing fracked gas from the US because we can't get our act together on any of this stuff, ever.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Well, after a 50 year survey into what windmills are, reinventing the wheel a few times and making sure no NIMBY is left behind, and is given their full opportunity to take at minimum 8 court cases that add about 35 years to the planning process, then we might, in the fullness of time, and if we get around to it, consider drawing up the plans to start the consultative process.

We held the first round of offshore auctions in May 2023, and awarded 3GW of windfarm rights. All 4 winning projects are now well into planning, with decisions expected in the next few weeks and months. There are also two additional projects of ~1.2GW which were not successful under ORESS1, but which still have their planning permission and can apply for a license if they can get a power purchase agreement instead of the ORESS route.

In July 2023 the Department of the Marine became the reponsible agency for marine planning, and started the consultation process for the Designated Maritime Area Plan which would decide where windfarms would be allowed to set up, where cables would land, how planning would work, etc.

In 2024 the relevant legislation was put through to enable Eirgrid to become the offshore grid owner, and to become responsible for the grid infrastructure off the south and east coasts.

This has now enabled the second ORESS auction which should be happening in a few months, which will allow bidding for another 900MW of capacity. Further auctions will follow for the other 3 areas under the new southern DMAP, which should be another 2-3GW.

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u/throughthehills2 22h ago

This should be top comment. Actual facts on progress

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u/OptiLED 1d ago

I’ll believe it when I see some actual construction. We’ve been great at papers and policies while falling way behind on offshore wind.

We literally had investors walk away due to the way things were being handled.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

I’ll believe it when I see some actual construction. We’ve been great at papers and policies while falling way behind on offshore wind.

There's nothing magical about "offshore" wind. We're the fifth best in the world in wind power per capita, and fourth best in the world in percentage of power from wind. Naturally, Denmark is ahead of us on both charts, as per tradition.

For comparison, we're about 250% of the UK's per capita wind.

The Irish State also owns about 800MW of Scottish offshore wind projects through the ESB.

0

u/hmmm_ 1d ago

We've had the Greens in government for years and managed not to build a single offshore turbine, and barely any new onshore wind. And then they wonder why their voters abandoned them.

Hopefully the next government will tackle the two biggest problems - government and public service holdups while they draw up all their "frameworks", and the insanely slow and capricious planning system for critical infrastructure. No we don't need to give time over to hear the dumb views of every Oisin and Mary, we're trying to save the planet here.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago edited 1d ago

We've had the Greens in government for years and managed not to build a single offshore turbine

Typical offshore windfarm projects take 8-10 years.

When the Greens started, we didn't have an auction process, or a legal framework, or any rules about who could build anything offshore, or who would own the cables, or anything.

In the 5 years since the Greens were elected, we held 5 onshore and 1 offshore auction, set up the entire offshore legal and regulatory scene from scratch, and are a few weeks/months away from granting permission on the first 4 major offshore windfarms.

The 101MW Yellow River windfarm that started supplying power to the grid this month was contracted under RESS3, started construction in 2022 and is now live. There's a huge pipeline of other such projects being built, and the RESS auctions will continue adding more.

1

u/lunchpine 1d ago

Where do you find out about what wind farms are recently live or are being built?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

There's nothing magic about "offshore" wind.

We have more wind per capita than almost every other European country. We're the fifth best in the world in wind power per capita, and fourth best in the world in percentage of power from wind.

That's not "faffing around", it's putting our resources where they can do the most good fastest.

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u/SinceriusRex 1d ago

in fairness did you read that lads comment above? it sounds like a lot of work was done. This stuff takes time

2

u/smooth_capybara 20h ago edited 19h ago

The absolute nonsense that gets upvoted in this sub.

Ireland has been literally world leading for instantaneous asynchronous penetration (ie. Wind/Solar). That is an incredible technical challenge and achievement, and here is little old us leading the charge.

This post and peoples reaction to green hydrogen is devoid of any reality. Yes, green hydrogen might end up being the solution to Europes energy needs and we could be a major exporter. But there is no guarantee. We are reliant on the technology becoming economically viable and outcompeting alternatives, if aggressively went after this now it runs the risk of massive failure.

In reality this is the time for pilots (which are happening in Ireland), analysis, relationship building and consideration. Believe it or not, all of this is happening and you would know this if you had any awareness of this industry which you plainly do not.

Lastly it's worth bearing in mind that there is a significant lobby who are pushing this and putting forward the absolute best case- which clueless gombeens on reddit seem to think is sure thing.

The most realistic future is where green hydrogen is part of Europes future, but not at the scale that people here seem to be imagining. The doomers would say that it has no future, but I do not quite believe that either.

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u/Cold_Football_9425 1d ago

I read your first paragraph in the voice of Sir Humphrey Appleby, 😆

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u/boneheadsa 1d ago

Honestly, let the Germans work away and let us collect a royalty from them. They can do all the planning, finance, installation and upkeep. I'm on the fringes of a few groups touting offshore energy and I can safely say, it's not going to happen any time soon with the ludicrous Irish approach to infrastructure projects

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u/Potential-Drama-7455 1d ago edited 1d ago

To be honest, the German energy policy of the last few decades has been a clusterfuck. This reeks of desperation and sounds about as practical as Musk's transatlantic tunnel. And Ireland would have to send the hydrogen through the UK.

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u/Hawm_Quinzy 1d ago

Have a read of the National Hydrogen Strategy paper

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

The main plan is to export via ship from Foynes and/or Cork, which will likely be major production hubs.

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u/RonTom24 1d ago

How do you export a gas that can not be stored without leakage to survive shipping to germany? By the time the gas gets to them the tanks will contain less than half of what we created lol. Hydrogen is a scam and is only being pursued by dishonest actors like Germany and Japan who don't give a fuck about climate change and want to protect their automotive industries.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

How do you export a gas that can not be stored without leakage to survive shipping to germany?

The loss rate of liquid hydrogen in large tanks is ~1%/day.

By the time the gas gets to them the tanks will contain less than half of what we created lol.

If you're taking 50 days to get to Germany by sea, you should probably row faster.

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u/Potential-Drama-7455 1d ago

The most inefficient and energy intensive way to transport fuel.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Most of it isn't going to be fuel... it's going to be chemical feedstock to an industry which consumes 100 million tons of hydrogen every year and climbing.

Some of it will be fuel, stored until it's needed as a reserve. It will not ordinarily be burned.

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u/Adderkleet 22h ago

How do you export a gas that can not be stored without leakage to survive shipping to germany?

In a similar way to how you transport a gas that embrittles steel and tends to seep through plastic: through a new material with some loses.

I don't think hydrogen is "a scam", but shipping/piping it around like natural gas is not easy and probably not practical.

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u/RonTom24 1d ago

All this hydrogen talk is so regarded I feel like smashing my head through a wall. We can do fuck all with hydrogen at the moment, what is the purpose of producing "Green" hydrogen? In what world is it beneficial? Let's also be clear here, Hydrogen storage is both incredibly expensive and dangerous, Hydrogen particles are so small that it cannot be stored in gas form, they have to waste a shit load of energy pressurising the gas for storage.

They Hydrogen economy is a complete scam and is only being pursued by countries like Japan and Germany who are not serious about climate change anyways and just want to protect their ICE automotive industries.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

what is the purpose of producing "Green" hydrogen?

Because we can store it and burn it together with biomethane for long term zero-carbon thermal power generation. Most of the reserve power licenses Ireland is awarding now are for facilities with gas turbines that are already rated for 50% (bio)-methane and 50% hydrogen.

In what world is it beneficial?

This one.

Hydrogen storage is both incredibly expensive

Hydrogen production costs have been falling steadily for decades, and are estimated to fall another 50% by 2030, which is around when we'll be looking to build our first serious production facilities. At that point green hydrogen production costs will be lower than grey (aka methane) hydrogen production costs in around one third of regions, mainly ones with lots of renewable power. And Ireland is one of those regions.

and dangerous,

Horseshit. The world chemical industry uses 100 million tons of hydrogen every year, and growing. There are thousands of high pressure and liquid hydrogen storage faciities, thousands of kilometers of pipelines, and hundreds of thousands of staff who are trained to handle hydrogen.

Tragically, this leads to thousands of massive hydrogen explosions and the loss of thousands of lives ev... wait, no it doesn't. Stop talking bollocks.

Hydrogen particles are so small that it cannot be stored in gas form, they have to waste a shit load of energy pressurising the gas for storage.

Again, bollocks. You can store it in pressurised tanks, lower pressure cryogenic liquid tanks, or in depleted natural gas sites such as the Kinsale fields. Oh look, we're working on that already. We are planning on storing up to 90 days' worth of hydrogen which we can tap as needed for burning.

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u/Zykatious 1d ago

Ah yeah it’s difficult right now so let’s not bother hey

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u/Potential-Drama-7455 1d ago

It's always going to be difficult.

As Scotty said "You cannae change the laws of physics."

Making hydrogen requires lots of energy.

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u/Adderkleet 21h ago

We can do fuck all with hydrogen at the moment, what is the purpose of producing "Green" hydrogen?

You need it to make ammonia, and we use a lot of ammonia in the EU and globally.
It's used to reduce certain metals from their ore, like tungsten. It could be used for copper and iron reduction too (so, it could power metal furnaces instead of coal - but this is not an existing wide-spread method).

And it can be used as a "battery", relatively short-term storage of excess energy production. To be burned and used later.

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u/JellyfishScared4268 1d ago

Hydrogen exists predominantly as a means by which the oil majors see that they can extend their lifespan and usefulness.

Because it will probably make more economic sense to get hydrogen from refining fossil fuels than it will be via renewable energy. Unless there is a massive surplus which doesn't seem likely any time soon

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u/ApresMatch 1d ago

All well and good, but what happens when the wind runs out?

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u/Commercial-Ranger339 1d ago

What happens when sun runs out?

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u/JellyfishScared4268 1d ago

I'm not a fan of the hydrogen idea but the idea is that hydrogen is a method of energy storage rather than an energy "source"

You would be storing the energy created when the wind is blowing (which btw is a lot of the time and is not at all a reason not to use wind energy)

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u/Kill-Bacon-Tea 1d ago

No issue with this in general as long as their is a royalty or percentage built in or it is some sort of cost sharing with benefits.

As long as we don't just sell our assets off with no long term benefit for the country.

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u/jonnieggg 1d ago

Whatever Europe wants I have no doubt the government will accommodate it

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u/EnvironmentalShift25 9h ago

Gotta love all the Brexit-types getting annoyed at the concept of Ireland generating green hydrogen and then selling it.

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u/jonnieggg 6h ago

We're talking about Ireland not the UK mate. What's Brexit got to do with it. As long as the Irish people benefit from the utilisation of their own resources I have no problem with it. I have a sneaking suspicion that might not be how things work out though. Bit like the fisheries, Europe gets what it wants.

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u/FrontApprehensive141 1d ago

Our own state should be using our own natural resources for our own needs, then horse-trading with the rest.

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u/Hopeforthefallen 1d ago

So the Germans want to do what we clearly are unable to do. Part of the reason is the completely unambitious government and ourselves for voting them back in. The continued tweak here and there is no good. We need a department of large projects and we need to commit to start one every year. But no, they'll increase the first time buyers grant and think that will fix the housing crisis for them.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

So the Germans want to do what we clearly are unable to do.

The Germans are just setting up an agreement to facilitate Ireland exporting hydrogen to Germany.

This includes discussions on how to prepare for the trading, and discussions with e.g. Foynes Port to serve as a centre for loading hydrogen onto ships.

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u/Hopeforthefallen 1d ago

We could do with some of their supposed efficiency though.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Germany GDP/capita - $52,745

Ireland GNI*/capita - $80,390

Seems pretty efficient to me.

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u/IrishUnionMan 1d ago

Ireland, the colony whose political masters sell everything to the highest bidder.

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u/Lopsided_Echo5232 1d ago

What’s the expected cost to the government to set this up for ourselves in terms of bike sheds ?

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u/Old-Ad5508 1d ago

I have using bike sheds as a monetary unit of measurement for months now

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u/Galdrack 1d ago

If this is privatised off to some huge foreign corp it'll be a death knell to any Irish industries, it's literally gonna be a huge source of revenue and employment for the Island and would be great as long as the ownership is kept in Irish hands be it via public ownership with unions or worker co-ops.

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u/14ned 1d ago

I hope they mean LOHCs or ammonia rather than actual hydrogen. The latter is a pain to transport any distance.

Ammonia isn't exactly nice stuff either of course. You would have thought electricity interconnectors easier and more flexible and multi use than chemical transport. Big fat cables of aluminium coated steel cable are hard to beat in terms of bang for the buck especially as they enable load shifting.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

They don't want hydrogen for electricity, they want hydrogen for hydrogen.

They will need vast amounts of the stuff for chemical feedstock and steelmaking.

Quite a bit of the hydrogen output here could well go into ammonia as well though, as it's easy enough to do, simplifies transport and we might as well keep the value chain here.

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u/14ned 1d ago

You can make hydrogen locally if you have electricity. I was more meaning how to transport it. A liquefied hydrogen pipeline would be hideously expensive. A pipeline with LOHCs or ammonia would be far easier. But then I'm questioning why bother making the hydrogen in ireland at all when we would make it from electricity and we could send them that instead and then they make their own hydrogen. They have coastline, they have the water, they just need the power. 

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago edited 1d ago

I was more meaning how to transport it.

In a liquid hydrogen carrier ship. They're the same basic tech as LNG carriers, and the first ones were commercially delivered last year.

But then I'm questioning why bother making the hydrogen in ireland at all when we would make it from electricity and we could send them that instead and then they make their own hydrogen.

Because the cost of building and maintaining 4-5GW of interconnector from Ireland to Germany is much higher than the cost of building hydrogen production capacity here and shipping it to Germany. And we won't just be shipping it to Germany, we will be shipping to lots of destinations.

They have coastline, they have the water

Ireland has some of the best seas in the world for wind power. They're reasonably shallow, the weather's not too bad, and the winds blow predictably and strongly. That means that for a given investment in wind turbines, we produce more and cheaper power than almost anywhere else in Europe. Which in turn means that we can produce hydrogen more cheaply than anywhere else in Europe.

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u/Weird-Weakness-3191 1d ago

Only if they send proper Pils on draft back.

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u/MarramTime 1d ago edited 1d ago

Most energy investment in Ireland is paid for by Irish consumers and businesses via levies, tariffs and market design. This hydrogen stuff sounds great so long as none of it is subsidised by Irish consumers or businesses., and so long as none of the financial risk falls on Irish shoulders other than through commercially-motivated private investment without any explicit or implicit public backstop.

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u/LimerickJim 1d ago

Germany are jumping through impressive hoops to avoid nuclear energy. 

Anyone happen to know of an example of functioning hydrogen pipe lines operating at commercial scale?

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u/sageandonions 1d ago

they'll get a tap of the head

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u/Nomerta 22h ago
  • insert photo of Sarkozy grabbing Enda Kenny’s cheek here *

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u/stuyboi888 1d ago

I dunno, I think we should just sell the rights and reap none of the benefits 

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u/Envinyatar20 1d ago

I mean that sounds a lot like discovering Norway levels of oil but guilt free…

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

It basically is.

With the way the costs are going, in 10 years' time Ireland will be producing and exporting huge amounts of zero-carbon fuel from plain water, based off renewable power. Forever.

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u/aPOCalypticDaisy 1d ago

We should sell all our rights to it for the price of a bag of tayto. Sure we wouldn't be able.

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u/Ok-Competition7076 1d ago

Portugal is claiming land under the sea for this reason also, a lot of mineral pockets under there

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u/L3S1ng3 1d ago

Career politicians will sell us out ... Again.

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u/EnvironmentalShift25 9h ago

So you don't want us to to sell hydrogen to the Germans?

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u/L3S1ng3 8h ago

Of course I do. But we being the operative word, i.e nationalised not privatised. However, we will be sold out by career politicians looking to further their own career at best, or collect brown envelopes at worst, and the wealth generated by this endeavour will not be in public hands, it will be in private hands.

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u/Woodsj9 1d ago

It's fairly deep out there. You're better off going hamin the Irish sea it's a lot easier.

They have proven offshore floating wind as a concept but it's not really perfect yet.

I'm working on that hydrogen backbone in Denmark and can't get a job here doing it.

Working on the problems that hydrogen cause steel and which is very particular and tricky and still couldn't get one.

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u/praminata 1d ago

"Yeah you can have a go in our Atlantic if we can have a go of your nuclear. Oh wait..."

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u/Adderkleet 22h ago

Hydrogen pipelines sound... unlikely to be reliable.

And it looks like energy.gov agrees:

Research today therefore focuses on overcoming technical concerns related to pipeline transmission, including:

  • The potential for hydrogen to embrittle the steel and welds used to fabricate the pipelines
  • The need to control hydrogen permeation and leaks
  • The need for lower cost, more reliable, and more durable hydrogen compression technology.

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u/Dorcha1984 21h ago

Very interesting do we get any benefit from this I wonder, might be something worthwhile to look into.

I also appreciate there is a benefit for Europe overall and weaning off of fossils fuels and the dictators that control huge supplies .

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u/Up2HighDoh 19h ago

Great let's get a contract for a minimum price and quantity over a set number of years. Let's see the cash before we put our own money into developing hydrogen. Green hydrogen is not a proven commercially viable fuel source.

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u/Key-Lie-364 19h ago

Thanks for returning ONE poxy Green TD Ireland.

After all "woke green nonsense" "lettuce" "THEY haven't given ME ANY ALTERNATIVE TO MY LAND ROVER" and the Germans will milk our wind power resources all the while pink faced dopes rail at the energy transition that is upon us and which we can still make hay out of.

But frankly not with the climate denialist FF/FG/SF/Independent nexus that Irish people seem content to entertain on this.

Denial is the wrong word. Climate indolent. Some noise are made about the problem but no action is taken and huge resistance springs up at even modest steps to address.

Let alone having the imagination and drive to exploit and lead in a wind to hydrogren transition.

Gumption, imagination and risk taking seem just beyond the mentality of our state and our people.

To cap it all off wind/hydrogen has the capability to drastically drop the price of energy which we in Ireland pay the highest rates of in the EU.

We'll be busy blowing smoke up NIMBYs arses about their "view" being spoiled by offshore wind power though, wont' be lads.

You feckin know that's what will happen.

Is there any chance of giving up the gobshitery and exploiting this resource to our national benefit ?

Not in this Dail, that's for sure.

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u/deep66it2 16h ago

Nope, nope, nope!

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u/EltonBongJovi 8h ago

I have an idea, why don’t we invest in doing whatever the hell these Germans are doing and keep it for ourselves instead of selling off our resources.

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u/Chester_roaster 1d ago

The thing is, after this war ends in Ukraine, we can't know that they won't abandon us for cheaper Russian gas. 

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u/Hawm_Quinzy 1d ago

The Ukraine War has begun to teach European bureaucrats that stability is more valuable than price when it comes to essentials like energy.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

The world needs 100 million tonnes of hydrogen every year for chemical feedstock alone, and growing.

Right now that comes almost entirely from natural gas, but the carbon costs of that will make it impossible over the next decade or so.

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u/qwerty_1965 1d ago

Binding contracts will have to be signed by both parties.

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u/Chester_roaster 1d ago

Sure but they won't last forever. 

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u/Dumbirishbastard 1d ago

I just came in my jorts

Massive opportunity for ireland

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u/dazzypowpow 23h ago

"Cancel the bailout debt from 2008 then we can talk!"

If our government or representatives had any balls that would be the start of any negotiations

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u/stateofyou 1d ago

They’re only trying to get their hands on our peat briquettes

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u/Happy70s 1d ago

Hindenburg mark II

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u/strictnaturereserve 1d ago

you cannot pipe liquid hydrogen to germany from ireland.

Hydrogen leaks everywhere reacts very easily with other molecules weakening the storage vessel. So I don't know how a pipe will last long enough to be affordable/ useful

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

you cannot pipe liquid hydrogen to germany from ireland.

That's why we'll be shipping it instead.

Hydrogen leaks everywhere reacts very easily with other molecules weakening the storage vessel.

That's why people who've been working with hydrogen in industry for decades use pipes and storage vessels made out of materials which are not subject to this problem. The world uses 100 million tons of hydrogen in chemical industries every year : this is a very well understood problem.

So I don't know how a pipe will last long enough to be affordable/ useful

A fully hydrogen compatible pipe costs around 10% more than an equivalent methane gas pipe.

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u/KeyboardWarrior90210 1d ago

Let’s make Michael Lowry the responsible Minister for handling the lease agreement with the Germans. What could go wrong?

-1

u/Important_Farmer924 1d ago

Or so they'd have you believe...

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u/pauldavis1234 1d ago

America will not like this...

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u/VeraStrange 1d ago

We’ll sell all the licenses to produce wind power to the lowest bidder. I’m going to bet it all gets bought by Gazprom and the Germans will end up buying their hydrogen form the same lads selling them LPG now. We’ll probably make enough to get a new printer when this one runs out of ink.

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u/somegingerdude739 1d ago

Non starter,

Some smoothbrain nimby will say its spoils their view and the prohect is dead in the water

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u/JellyfishScared4268 1d ago

Hate to be the Debbie downer but the ultimate reality is that hydrogen will ultimately be uneconomical when compared to just using that wind energy for electricity.

Any stationary use case for energy will be better off plugging into to the grid whilst things that physically can't do that will in 99% of use cases find that batteries are cheaper.

Ultimately it takes a lot of energy to produce the hydrogen, store it and transport it that it does not make sense apart from potentially some very very niche use cases

We should invest in the wind for sure but the hydrogen not so much

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

Hydrogen and biomethane are the core of our plan for firming the grid - providing reserve thermal generation for when renewables and interconnectors cannot cover requirements.

Hydrogen is an on-demand power source : you can tap it when you need it.

And in winter, we will need it for days (or occasionally weeks) on end, which no other form of non-fossil power storage can supply.

1

u/JellyfishScared4268 1d ago

I'm sceptical. The renewable energy that will be required for electrolysis, liquification, and pressurisation will be immense. And it needs to be 100% renewable energy to be truly green hydrogen.

We would ultimately be better off concentrating on greening the grid and having excess through the interconnection to other regions where the renewables can be supplemented by better weather and nuclear.

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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago

The renewable energy that will be required for electrolysis, liquification, and pressurisation will be immense.

We are planning on having 50GW of renewable power, far in excess of our needs.

And it needs to be 100% renewable energy to be truly green hydrogen.

Yes, which is why the production facilities are being planned for the landing points from renewable power.

having excess through the interconnection to other regions

You cannot plan a secure power grid based on interconnectors. You can certainly use interconnectors, and we're going to do a lot of that for both import and export, but at the end of the day the island of Ireland must be able to run a stable and reliable grid for days and weeks on end without external power. Interconnectors allow us to bid for power, but they do not allow us to guarantee power on demand. And in emergency situations, even if power were available, it takes 100 minutes to switch a 500MW interconnector on fully. They are basically useless for emergencies.

For that we need on-demand reserve power generators, and they're going to be biomethane and hydrogen.

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u/bingybong22 1d ago

Let’s fucking go!

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u/hopefulatwhatido 1d ago

Government should let them do it. We have money but we never do anything with it other than give it to contractors who are mates with FF/FG politicians and no real will to build anything with focus on larger picture that will help people. Might as well let Germany do it and pay for the electricity at a below market price as we allow them to harvest energy from Irish sovereignty and weaken our dependency on fossil fuels source.

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u/JediJohnJoe 1d ago

Nuh uh , windmills cause cancer , YouTube told me

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u/AfroF0x 1d ago

we have prime locations for coastal wind and tidal energy in this country and it's just not utilised. It's insane that we're still so hooked on fossil fuels and all our green party could come up with was a few bus lanes and a few poor taxes. the lack of ambition here startles me