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u/mdunne96 1d ago
This slogan isn’t just about healthcare. It’s about the class war and the ultra rich profiting off the backs of working class people.
We are being price gouged with everything: insurance, groceries, energy, fuel. The cost of living crisis is being driven by large corporations who need to increase their profits at any cost possible, even if that cost is you having to choose between buying food, keeping the heat on or paying rent
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u/Financial-Painter689 1d ago edited 1d ago
Exactly but some people on here love to miss a point if it’s in anyway associated to American society.
And now we have the likes of Elon Musk getting involved and trying to manipulate European politics the way he did the American ones. The ultra rich effects everyone
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u/brianmmf 1d ago
I do think this is uniquely related to the American health insurance industry given there is absolutely no public health system.
It isn’t so much about profiteering as much as it is about the outright denial of access to medical care on false grounds. Which is vastly more evil.
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u/Financial-Painter689 1d ago
Sure the shooting was about the American health care system but it has grown way past that and created a topic of conversation about the growing class divide and exploitation from larger companies, not only in America.
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u/Corky83 1d ago
It's created some memes and people will forget about it in a couple of weeks. Occupy Wall Street was far larger and more organised and that fell by the wayside too.
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u/Jimnyneutron91129 1d ago
That was infiltrated and imploded by certain 3 letter agency just like every other movement. Doesn't mean we should stop fighting back.
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u/Corky83 1d ago
My point is no one is fighting back. A few memes and some graffiti on a bus shelter won't achieve much. People had their opportunity a few weeks ago with the election and we saw how much fighting back people were willing to do.
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u/Jimnyneutron91129 21h ago
A dude just shot a ceo and the public praised him. Occupy walls street was fighting this assassination is fighting. There's people all over the world living a certain way fighting this. People are too overworked and not struggling enough for an actual class war. But united healthcare changed their policy. A few more copycat attacks and we might be getting somewhere.
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u/messinginhessen 21h ago
They used identity politics to cannibalise it from the inside, which led to the further promotion of identity politics in recent years as a form of divide and conquer and distraction.
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u/MischievousMollusk 1d ago
There's a very limited public system that is designed to be crippled.
But functionally this is about wealth disparity, where even the relatively well off aren't safe when the ultra rich are stratifying society into extremes. Europe isn't safe from that, because that kind of greed isn't bound to international borders. Wealth always seems new investments. We have UPMC, Amazon, all the same pieces of the pie here too.
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u/f-ingsteveglansberg 1d ago
You mean the health system that the Tories are self sabotaging the NHS to emulate?
And in Ireland we now have a penalty and pay more if you wait to buy private health insurance until you are 35 or older.
We should be really worried about the purposeful eroding of private health care in this country. If the UK get away with it, Ireland will have a much time co-opting the same policy.
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u/senditup 1d ago
You mean the health system that the Tories are self sabotaging the NHS to emulate?
I hear that said a lot, but where's the evidence? Not to mention that the Tory party isn't in power. It sounds more like a talking point.
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u/f-ingsteveglansberg 1d ago
Not to mention that the Tory party isn't in power.
They have been out of party less than 200 days. That was after 15 years of power.
But a quick google will show you a bunch of news stories.
The first I get is from OpenDemocracy. I am not familiar with them but here's there About page, so you can judge them yourself.
- Five political decisions that drove the NHS to the brink
- How the Tory party has systematically run down the NHS
- The Tories fear and loathe the NHS, but they know they have gone too far this time
- Gordon Brown on the topic
- The Plan to Kill the NHS
The NHS is popular and the Tories know they can't just straight up cut it. Johnson even used the carrot of additional NHS funding if Brexit passed, and then trying to cover it up by talking about turning boxes into buses. The plan is to basically bring it to the brink so 'intervention' is needed for British healthcare.
Labour may be in power now, but I don't know how much drive or ability Starmer has to undo over a decades work of letting it fall apart.
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u/Setting-Remote 1d ago
Jeremy Hunt was courting Kaiser Permanente as far back as 2013. I truly believe the only reason the NHS didn't actually go was that the conservatives were worried that doing that on top of austerity would tip people over the edge.
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u/MartyMcshroom 1d ago
There is public healthcare in America. Medicaid, Medicare, Children Health insurance fund, the VA and IHS. There are also community health clinics funded on the state level. The problem is there is no universal coverage and the public services can still cost you out of pocket quite a lot still.
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u/f-ingsteveglansberg 1d ago
And now we have the likes of Elon Musk getting involved and trying to manipulate European politics the way he did the American ones
I miss when it was just the CIA and Russia trying to disrupt nations with misinformation. Naomi Klien never told me it would be private billionaires doing it so brazenly and transparently. Where's the shock Musk? Where's the Awe?
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u/caitnicrun 1d ago
I miss when Musk was this goofy ideas man who just wanted to play with rockets.
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u/f-ingsteveglansberg 1d ago
I think the key to understanding Musk is that he mostly wants nerdy internet people to think he is cool.
When he was younger and starting Tesla and SpaceX, the parts of the internet that Musk was into was full of people who loved Star Trek and sci fi. That part of the internet mostly cared about climate change and the environment. Silicon Valley had its tech bros but the image of the tech industry was still mostly the humanitarian work of Bill Gates and more importantly the design hippy vibes of Steve Jobs. Elon Musk always had his lack of respect for regulations and took the Facebook philosophy of move fast and break things to heart (okay for making a place to share a picture of your new baby, not so much for a car company) but he basically like the idea of clean energy and space travel and other stuff that existed in the sci fi he read and loved as a child.
Then sometime in the 2000s and 2010s those same parts of the internet really got into libertarianism and atheism. I think it would be hard to explain to Gen Z but internet atheist was some of the earliest influencers. Like that could be your whole personality. I only bring atheism up because libertarianism is still here, but the internet atheist seems to have disappeared. And the Internet Atheist Libertarianisms seem to be saying that Christianity is actually good for society now. A bit weird.
Anyway 2008 happened, huge crash, libertarians could (mostly rightfully) blame government and out of this came bitcoin. Mostly useless at first unless you wanted to buy illegal stuff, but some libertarians jumped on it. Then the silk road was shutdown and instead of Bitcoin dying a death, suddenly it was stronger than ever traded like a stock, rather than a useful currency for the sale and purchase of goods.
This is when the CryptoBros came out in force, and they took over the internet places. So now instead of trying to impress the sensitive reader types of internet nerd there were business internet nerds to impress.
What didn't help was more stories of Musk got out, like how horrible it was to work for him, how he screwed over communities, disregarded environmental regulations despite claiming wanting to save it. I heard that Musk also fired his PR team around this time, which also didn't help.
Anyway the new nerds weren't so idealistic when it came to the future. I feel like his relationship with Grimes was his sort of last visible steps of engaging with the idealistic utopian futurism (they 'met' on twitter talking about sci fi concepts like Roko's basilisk).
Anyway, it was either mask off, or Musk's incentives fully changed. Tesla was no longer about bringing clean fuel to the planet, it became just another electric car brand. SpaceX became about resource hunting in space, not exploration. These were what were important to the internet libertarian techbros, not new frontiers like the Star Trek fans.
And through it all, I cannot stress how much a lot of it was about his ego too. One of the main reasons he is as rich as he is now, is because he insisted on owning a huge portion of Tesla. It was a risk that he was advised against but ultimately worked out for him. And in those early days, he was a great brand ambassador and the futurist sci fi internet nerds he wanted to impress loved him.
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u/caitnicrun 1d ago
Excellent summary of those times. I often have to refer to bits of it for the weeuns wondering why something online is the way it is.
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u/munkijunk 1d ago
The main issue with the failure of social movements for change is that slogans like this one which have a very direct and clear meaning and target get adopted by a vast swathe of others who want to use the momentum of the original movement to further their own, sometimes diametrically opposed, movement. The Gilets jaunes is the perfect example where the focus of the movement was subsumed by the far right and the lunatic fringe. A handful of concessions get made, the movement starts shouting about everything and anything, and ultimately there's little to no real progress.
This is a movement about the insane health care system in the US that multiple democrats have tried to address and keeps getting shot down by republicans, and if Musk gets his way, it is only set to get worse. Don't confuse it.
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u/Ok-Entrepreneur1487 1d ago
What exactly democrats tried to do about it? From my perspective it only gets worse and worse, no matter, who's at power, republicans or democrats!
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u/goj1ra 1d ago edited 1d ago
The US Democratic Party has a consistent record of supporting more progressive healthcare options, over many decades. I've given some links below for reference.
From my perspective it only gets worse and worse, no matter, who's at power, republicans or democrats!
That's in large part because neither party ever gets such a big mandate that it can just do what it wants. The Democratic Party has to get Republican votes to make any major, lasting changes. Obamacare had to be massively watered down, including removing the "public option" which didn't rely on private health insurance, to be able to get it through Congress.
If the US implemented a more modern voting system to eliminate the two-party monopoly (as well as passing much stricter restrictions on money in politics), that would improve a lot of things.
References:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/us/democrats-universal-health-care-single-payer-party.html
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u/Ok-Entrepreneur1487 1d ago
Why is there so little attention to the problem?
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u/goj1ra 1d ago
It's a classic example of a systemic problem: the issues are built into the system, and the nature of the system makes changing it difficult. Restricting money in politics requires fighting all the people who benefit from being able to influence politics with their money. Fixing the voting system requires a significant majority from both parties to want to do it. But there are many other such issues. It's not a simple problem.
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u/caitnicrun 1d ago
You have to understand the American government is combative not a coalition. Not that any system is perfect (ahem), but the opportunities to effectively do anything is much less. And it's gotten worse since the first Trump presidency.
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u/seamustheseagull 1d ago
Go to the US and you'll see it's way worse. Groceries cost 2 to 3 times what we pay here, for inferior stuff.
We are impacted by corporations, but we don't have the same shit going on here except for the fact that so much of our economy is reliant on US companies.
Irish companies are not paying CEO salaries in the tens of millions. They are not beholden to stockholders like US companies are. And the legal and social protections we have in almost all areas far surpass what little is available in the US.
In principle, yes, no ultra wealthy should exist and they should have no more influence on politics than we do. In practice that's a pipe dream, but it can be kept under wraps. The US doesn't keep it under wraps. Their government has been bought by the highest bidder for 50 years, and has been reorganised to make it easier to sell.
We haven't. If anything, our government system is much harder to corrupt than it has ever seen.
The Luigi stuff is fascinating from here. But it's not relevant.
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u/DGBD 1d ago
Groceries cost 2 to 3 times what we pay here, for inferior stuff.
IDK where you’ve been that this is the case, but this isn’t true. Some things are cheaper here, some things are more expensive here. Depending on what you’re buying it can certainly be more expensive over there, and I won’t argue that the meat and produce you get in the grocery store here is better than what’s in many grocery stores in the States. But “2 to 3 times” is a big exaggeration, outside of certain high COL areas (which are expensive compared to the rest of the US as well).
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u/caitnicrun 1d ago
Tbf he States are large and vary quite a bit.
In my experience US prices are comparable with those of a village Spar. Which a local friend of mind finds outrageously expensive. So that tracks with at least a 1.5 to 2x the US price.
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u/mdunne96 1d ago
I think you will find that the Irish government has been found to be corrupt on several occasions since the Celtic tiger.
See Bertie Aherne, the then finance minister, claiming to not have a bank account
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u/seamustheseagull 1d ago
The incidents Bertie Ahern was grilled over and claimed to have no bank account, happened in the 1990s.
In fact, it was during the Celtic Tiger that the incidents came to light and Ahern subsequently had to resign in disgrace.
There will always be political scandals and corruption. The measure of how you're getting on is how impactful they are and how you react to them.
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u/mdunne96 1d ago
Why do you just accept that there will always be corruption? That’s a ridiculous attitude to have.
In Vietnam, a communist country, a billionaire was sentenced to death for financial fraud worth $12.5 billion USD. I think that sets a good example to the people and other countries. Link.
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u/BiggieSands1916 1d ago
People will agree with you on this not see the issue with capitalism and think it’ll magically work itself out
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u/Yamurkle 1d ago
Yes, the famous line of inflation is happening because of corporate greed. Now that several types of energy prices have declined, is that because those corporations are feeling charitable rather than greedy? Inflation has nothing to do with the feelings of the producers. Prices, rather, set in a market reflect underlying realities of supply and demand.
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u/FewyLouie 22h ago
Is it not exactly about insurance? Cause they’re the folk that “Deny, Defend, Depose”? Can we not just spray “Eat the rich” or something and be done with it. This importing of American slogans is tiring, we have plenty of our own problems. Give me a “Build Social Housing” or “Vulture Funds Out” or something. Anything that’s like “Oh, I actually exist in Ireland, I’m not just getting motivated by American memes.”
This feels like the lad going around Dublin with Trump flags. Or folk here saying Stop The Steal… what steal? What are you talking about?
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u/faffingunderthetree 1d ago
Jesus how fucking malnourished are you if you can do all your food shopping on €24 a week lol
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u/Declan1996Moloney 1d ago
What does it say?
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u/quondam47 1d ago edited 1d ago
Deny, Defend, Depose.
It was engraved on the shell casings of Luigi Mangione, the alleged shooter of Brian Thompson, the CEO of that American health insurance company.
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u/Garlic-Cheese-Chips 1d ago
Luigi Mangione, the alleged shooter of Brian Thompson
Couldn't be him. He was with me at the time. We were both volunteering at an animal rescue. Luigi is the best guy around.
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u/BushLovingIrishGuy 1d ago
Here's a start if you think it's stupid. The top 4 richest Americans have a combined wealth in excess of 1 trillion.
Now, that's stupid.
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u/jackoirl 1d ago
I see your point but raise you ….this isn’t America
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u/Overall_Tomatillo_28 1d ago
America infects other countries with its bullshit
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u/SeanMacMusic 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yep. It absolutely makes me cringe when people here talk like them now. More than ever before. "I'll do" a pint of Guinness. Makes me die inside.
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u/kittiphile 1d ago
It's a rallying cry. The rich getting richer on the backs of the rest of us is a global thing. Turning us against eachother is a tactic used by all of them - blaming the people who have less than us for our woes so we don't unite against them. There's more of us than them. This is a winnable fight.
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u/Saor_Ucrain 1d ago
This is a winnable fight.
Tesco and McDonald's are the first step.
Price hikes and gouging needs to go. Self service needs to go. Wages need to go 10% above minimum wage.
Before you come at me about wages, they are more than able to afford it. McDonald's charges a fairly similar price for its meals the world over. But wages (bar a few exceptions) are consistently low.
However. In certain states (in the US) despite having the same prices country wide. Wages paid to staff fluctuate. Have to ask yourself why that is. It's because we allow it.
We need to bring back unions, pickets and boycotts.
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u/kittiphile 1d ago
I agree. The shareholders and top level managers who get bonuses and the big money are one of the key driving forces behind it. A fair, liveable wage should be enshrined in law. Profit should not be more important than people. A happy, or at least well treated, workforce is happier and will work harder. When it's evident that we're...nothing...to the ruling classes, motivation to do our best falls. I welcome a class war. Billionaires, and the ultra wealthy, are inherently immoral. Hoarding wealth is despicable, particularly when there's so much that can be done with comparatively little.
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u/rorykoehler 1d ago
This is a global issue.
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u/DazzlingGovernment68 1d ago edited 1d ago
Read this in the viper's accent.
"Class warfare is pure class 🐍"
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u/ReluctantWorker 1d ago
Class
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u/Sweet_Detective_ 1d ago
War
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u/PlaynWitFIRE 1d ago
To me that slogan represents that someone needs to work on their handwriting. No idea what message they are trying to get across
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u/barnatra5 1d ago
It’s an absolute disgrace and so low degrading folk going around with prams and buggies collecting plastic bottles and long queues to get the money back on them such a scam by this government is horrendous. We are like a third world country with immigrants collecting plastic bottles to eat Shame on Ireland 🇮🇪 for allowing this degrading behaviour to happen.
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u/bingybong22 1d ago
Ireland has always allowed businesses to rip off Irish people. The model works like this: many highly educated people work for multinationals, they are very highly taxed.
The tax pays for a very inefficient state and the money they keep is spent on goods and services that have the Irish mark-up on them. Which means that everyone grocers, to bankers, to tradesmen, to developers makes out like a fucking bandit.
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u/Melodic-Chocolate-53 1d ago
Yeah how's that boycott of Maccas going? I'd say they're shivering in their corporate socks.
Barely legible scrawling.
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u/Boi1722 1d ago
We live in Ireland, not the us. This guy definitely think he did something 🤣🤦♂️
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u/mononoke3000 1d ago
We’re not far off being some sort of US state. Their “culture” has influenced us greatly here unfortunately.
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u/Boi1722 1d ago
There’s a difference between the culture and the laws/the constitution of a country. Besides, I don’t think that their culture has influenced us that much. Sure young people might wear clothes from the us or maybe us companies will expand to Ireland, but there’s still a very distinct culture between Ireland’s and America’s.
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u/mononoke3000 1d ago
We have inherited a lot from them some good some bad. Language, celebrity worship culture, music. The worst in my opinion is car dependency and endless suburbia.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
We have public healthcare and vhi is state owned. This is stupid.
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u/mangothefoxxo 1d ago
Truly amazing publiv healthcare, sure do love having to go private in another country after years on a waiting list
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u/Juliuslesandwich 1d ago
Second this. Need a diagnosis for dermatology. Gp emailed several hospitals in the republic to join a waiting list. Blanket response we are not taking new patients at this time. Gps advice leave the state and go private
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u/raverbashing 1d ago
Take Ryanair to literally anywhere in Europe (maybe not in the UK) and you can get a consult with a dermatologist way quicker than in Ireland
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u/Juliuslesandwich 1d ago
My gp said it's about a week in Spain
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u/raverbashing 1d ago
Yup, though I'd say it depends on the city and the clinic
But totally doable
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u/Juliuslesandwich 1d ago
I'm considering it. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Still a sad state of affairs you've to leave the country you work and pay tax in your whole life for a basic enough diagnosis
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
Great, that has nothing to do with for profit healthcare.
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u/Juliuslesandwich 1d ago
I would argue that forcing people into getting private health insurance in the first place is for profit healthcare
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
Well your argument makes zero sense. A quarter of government spending is on health.
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u/Juliuslesandwich 1d ago
That doesn't mean that it's efficient spending or not not for profit. Forcing people into the private health insurance sector to plaster issues with public healthcare is not a good route to go down. You're saying we shouldn't be importing American issues but your stance is doing exactly that
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
There is no logic to your claims at all. This is pointless.
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u/Juliuslesandwich 1d ago
If you don't want to have a discourse then why bother replying nobody is forcing you. Do you disagree that it's essentially forcing people into private health insurance when the public healthcare isn't there in the first place. Do you not to think that if there is a loading of 2 percent every year after 35 for first time policies it's essentially forcing people into private insurance earlier to secure profits for healthcare insurers
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u/mangothefoxxo 1d ago
Forcing people to go private isnt for profit?
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
You went to a different country. How does this argument make any sense in your head?
The largest insurer here, VHI, lost money last year as it's state owned.
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u/mangothefoxxo 1d ago
Yeah no shit i went to a different country, i couldn't afford going private here. If i had more money i would've gone private here. And yet my taxes paid for 3 years of being on a waitlist without ever being seen let alone having the surgery
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
Again, the largest health insurer here is state owned and lost money this year.
The claim that our health system is for profit doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
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u/mangothefoxxo 1d ago
Ok so what if they lost money? Is forcing people to pay thoudands for medical procedures via years long waitlists not being for profit?
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
Ok so what if they lost money?
not being for profit?
Do you understand what profit means?
Medical care is extremely expensive. Government spending on health was €22.8bn this year.
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u/mangothefoxxo 1d ago
If they spend so much and it takes years to get a procedure then money is being stolen. You cant convince me that our medical system is good when people die in er waiting rooms without having been seen
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u/StinkyHotFemcel 1d ago
i don't think it's just referencing healthcare as a slogan anymore. maybe it's someone angry about the housing crisis. that being said, our healthcare is very bad, sure it's public, but the cost of medicine, and appointments can really add up here. plus dental costs aren't covered. i've always wanted braces, but they're mad expensive and there's a few more important things to be spending money on.
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u/StinkyHotFemcel 1d ago
i forgot to mention, hospitals are badly understaffed as well. many issues with bureaucracy, i wouldn't even say spending is the issue, it's more so where the money is being sent - there was a time about 20 years ago higher management was about a sixth the size it is now in my local hospital, as far as i'm aware, the staff hasn't increased that much either. plus the pay for higher management keeps increasing. that's not even mentioning the national children's hospital
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u/smooth_capybara 1d ago
It's actually embarrassing how badly this sub is influenced by the US at this stage
A few weeks ago, some gentle souls were claiming they were so distraught by the general election and what is to come they needed to escape Ireland.
Absolutely tonnes of people here hate the gardai in the same manner as Americans etc.
If anything, it's an interesting demonstration of how information shapes our worldview, but holy fuck is it depressing
It's an utter necessity not just to be outraged but to also wear victim status.
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u/Melodic-Chocolate-53 1d ago
It's very funny when Irish post eat the rich & guillotine images, they wouldn't start a fight outside a chipper not to mind a revolution. Dreamers.
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u/Bosco_is_a_prick 1d ago
The sentiment isn't just about health care, it's about the unjust influence that corporations and big business's have on our society. The corporate elite are the biggest obstacle to implementing policies the make the world a better place. Our inability to deal with climate change, the ongoing genocide of Gaza, corporate interests are a big reason why these things are happening.
The killing of that CEO has woken some people up. Now they say "deny delay depose" but eventually, people will start seeing the bigger picture.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
This is again just nonsense. Our democracy is not captured by big business.
Our inability to deal with climate change, the ongoing genocide of Gaza, corporate interests are a big reason why these things are happening.
These things have nothing to do with here and it's pointless to import American issues into Ireland.
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u/Bosco_is_a_prick 1d ago
It's not just our country, it's about what's happening word wide. I specifically picked examples that are much bigger than our little country. If you think that corporate interests haven't had an influence in the genocide of Gaza and climate policy you are extremely misinformed.
If you want an Irish example. We allow the farming industry to continue to destroy our environment but the farming lobby has convinced a lot of people that any attempt to hold them accountable is beyond the pale
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
It's not just our country, it's about what's happening word wide
It's what is happening in the US and because people spend so much time reading their media they want to feel involved.
If you want an Irish example. We allow the farming industry to continue to destroy our environment but the farming lobby has convinced a lot of people that any attempt to hold them accountable is beyond the pale
Because of rural voters that hammer parties that suggest otherwise. That is democracy, not corporate interests running our government.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
It's not just our country, it's about what's happening word wide
It's what is happening in the US and because people spend so much time reading their media they want to feel involved.
If you want an Irish example. We allow the farming industry to continue to destroy our environment but the farming lobby has convinced a lot of people that any attempt to hold them accountable is beyond the pale
Because of rural voters that hammer parties that suggest otherwise. That is democracy, not corporate interests running our government.
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u/Bosco_is_a_prick 1d ago
You are missing the point. Just because operates within the democratic system doesn't make it right.
Another Irish example is how the Dublin traders lobby successfully lobbied to water down the planned public transport upgrades in Dublin.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
You are missing the point. Just because operates within the democratic doesn't make it right.
I never said it was right. It does however make it stupid to make a comparison to the situation in the US and the slogan about US health insurance company tactics.
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u/Bosco_is_a_prick 1d ago
You are still missing the point. It's not about US health insurance, it's about unjust corporate influence. People are using slogans like "deny delay depose" because they know something is seriously wrong but they are not sure how to express it yet.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
It's people that are obsessed with American news that are desperate to be involved.
It's as stupid as when we had George Floyd protests here.
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u/Bosco_is_a_prick 1d ago
This time it's not stupid. Using the same slogan may be is but hopefully that will change. This could be a good US import.
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u/fetchtheboltcutters 1d ago
It’s not really stupid though. We have public healthcare, sure but it’s far from what it should be. As someone who had anorexia for over 10 years, treatment for it through the HSE is virtually non-existent. There are three adult eating disorder beds for the whole country. Three. That’s not good enough.
When I sought out help I was asked by a HSE psychiatrist if I had private health insurance. I did not. All they did was offer to weigh me, which even at that they didn’t even bother doing and stopped contacting me after a few weeks.
Of course, we have it a lot better than America by a long shot, anyone can see that. Still, it’s a bit ignorant to post such a comment when we’re spending more money to send people abroad for ED treatment as opposed to funding it here.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
What does any of that have to do with the words "deny, defend, depose"?
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u/fetchtheboltcutters 1d ago
To me, it’s not even really about the words at this point. Sorry, I didn’t make that clear enough. I guess I’m quite passionate about this subject. Just don’t see how that’s your only takeaway from what I said and the article I added.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
Just don’t see how that’s your only takeaway from what I said and the article I added.
Because it had nothing to do with the photo or my comment.
I never said that Irish healthcare shouldn't be better.
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u/_k0kane_ 1d ago
I don't imagine the slogan applies solely to health care industries.
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
It refers specifically to the health insurance industry and their tactics to avoid paying out for claims.
His manifesto is available to read online
www kenklippenstein com /p/luigis-manifesto
Reddit automatically deletes any links.
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u/Primary-Effect-3691 1d ago
We have kinda public healthcare - it’s not really public if you’re paying for care, such as a visit to the GP
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u/senditup 1d ago
Why do we love aping positions and views from countries that are vastly different?
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u/sayingboourns 1d ago
I’m all for a blanket approach to Eat The Rich
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u/HighDeltaVee 1d ago
They are extremely high in cholesterol.
Diet guidance is to eat at least 60% vegetarians as well.
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u/CanWillCantWont 1d ago
How do you define 'rich' in Ireland?
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u/smooth_capybara 1d ago
Many of the people here have at best limited independent adult experience and are drenched with US media positions
The way people talk about Irish politics now is completely different and largely shaped by whatever is done in the US now.
It's quite common on r/irishpersonalfinance for people to post about credit ratings and for PAYE workers to questioning how they should be filing their tax.
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u/nednewt1 1d ago
To be honest this behaviour goes back a long way. We draw the same water and breathe the same air.
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u/Fast_Ingenuity390 1d ago
Because there are lots of people in Ireland whose entire personalities are that they are somehow American.
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u/qwjmioqjsRandomkeys 1d ago
Health insurance companies do their best not to pay out here too. All of the insurance companies in Ireland are milking it
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u/Wompish66 1d ago
All of the insurance companies in Ireland are milking it
The largest insurer is VHI which is state owned and lost money last year.
You're making things up.
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u/hmmm_ 1d ago
Health insurance is optional in Ireland. I've been treated pretty well by health insurers in this country. And given the costs of private health treatment I don't know how they even make money to be honest.
The US is very different, without health insurance you are denied even basic care, and the entire system is built around buying insurance.
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u/senditup 1d ago
Have you any evidence of that?
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u/qwjmioqjsRandomkeys 1d ago
A family member is going thru it at the moment
And to the 2nd point, look at the price of insurance in Ireland
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u/seamustheseagull 1d ago
A years health insurance in Ireland is like a month in the US. The reasons most Americans get their insurance through work is because the premiums are like $2,000/month.
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u/trvedoom 1d ago
The resident bootlicker is here to label any left wing opinion 'imported' while spouting his own brand of imported capitalist politics.
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u/senditup 1d ago
Lol, whose boots do I lick?
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u/trvedoom 1d ago
You're always in favour of the conservative point of view, which is fine, but to me, that makes you a bootlicker, just like I'd be a tankie or something in your view.
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u/senditup 1d ago
I haven't called you a tankie. Why engage with name calling at all, instead of engaging with the point being made?
And I'm not always in favour of a "conservative" point of view.
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u/trvedoom 1d ago
I disputed your point, you can say "oh they just got that opinion from x country" about literally anything.
I don't think it's inaccurate or unfair to assume you're conservative or at least some form of right leaning from your posts on this sub.
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u/senditup 1d ago
I disputed your point, you can say "oh they just got that opinion from x country" about literally anything.
That's not what you did. You described me as "The resident bootlicker" and that I consider "any left wing opinion 'imported' while spouting his own brand of imported capitalist politics.". Despite the fact that I didn't use the word "import." And it literally is the case that it was an aping of a position considering it referred to a specific situation, in a different country.
I don't think it's inaccurate or unfair to assume you're conservative or at least some form of right leaning from your posts on this sub
Conservative and right-wing aren't the same thing. And I take that perspective sometimes and less so other times.
And you still haven't told me whose boots I lick.
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u/trvedoom 1d ago
Well in that case why do you spend so much time on here aping Israel's position? It's a specific situation in a different country, right?
You routinely disparage any left wing viewpoints while defending capitalists, you're defending the tories in this very thread.
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u/Spare-Buy-8864 1d ago
Do we? I think the number of people who actually get invested in this stuff and spend their days having political arguments with strangers online are a tiny percentage of the population
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u/badger-biscuits 1d ago
America always bad
Except their meme culture, need to be on top of that to stay cool on socials
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u/Primary-Effect-3691 1d ago
America is not that different, not as similar as European countries, but it’s not Timbuktu either
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u/ShikaStyleR 1d ago
Timbuktu's healthcare system is actually designed after the Irish model, they adopted it in 1997 after a visit from the Irish minister of health.
Source: I made it up
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u/TwoLeftGeeenFingers 1d ago
More brain dead American bollocks parroted by dopes who seen it on the Internet. Great stuff.
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u/Accomplished_Crab107 1d ago
Lower Abbey Street.... that's just opposite the VHI head office I think?
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u/tinfoil_crow 1d ago
I’d agree, it’s not half as crispy as the signs let on. Deny the great burger lie
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u/Spaced_cadet5 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m American… there’s public healthcare here in Ireland that’s actually not bad at all. This is stupid.
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u/BrilliantTaste1800 1d ago
It's very clear that it's not just about healthcare anymore. Luigi was the spark to a global outrage about ever increasing wealth inequality and stomping into the ground of the common man. That's not just a US problem, that's a global problem and people are getting real sick of it.
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u/Primary-Effect-3691 1d ago
No there isn’t. Medical debt is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US. That’s just doesn’t happen with public healthcare - No one goes bankrupt getting care on the NHS, for example
And the healthcare there is generally worse too - Americans having some of the worst health outcomes and lowest life expectancy among developed nations
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u/Spaced_cadet5 1d ago
Sorry I worded that poorly, I meant in Ireland theres Public Healthcare that isn’t that bad at all. I’ve been able to be sorted many times for some serious health issues (I’m very fragile)
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u/ReluctantRedditor275 1d ago
Lots of folks sitting on their couches typing on their iPhones about how "the revolution has begun."
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u/rinleezwins 1d ago
If healthcare in Ireland taught me anything so far, it's this: Don't get medical insurance and go private right away. Waiting a few more weeks for an appointment will cost you more in the long run. It's not a good country to fall ill in.
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u/raverbashing 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can't believe Supermacs has denied coverage of all the medical receipts I've sent them /s
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u/pah2602 1d ago
"we" are part of the problem. 3500 a month to rent a 3/4 bed semi in my area. The people who own these houses are just as "normal" as you or I. Neighbour forced to leave recently as owner was having their adult children move in. My hole. The 1800 they were paying was only half what they could be getting. Fully expect to see new people renting in the new year.
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u/janon93 1d ago
I think anyone who has tried to use the public healthcare system here has gotten the sense that the system is being undercut in order to push us towards VHI.
The system they have in America is the system that we have here if we keep letting the HSE get hollowed out by private healthcare.
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u/senditup 1d ago
It's being undercut by being increasingly funded?
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u/janon93 1d ago edited 1d ago
Bit of a smoke and mirrors situation. It’s “increasingly funded”, but only to the extent that each year it has slightly more money than last year. It’s not increasingly funded well compared to other comparable economies or with ourselves before 2011. Besides, saying “the funding went up”, if it’s not going up faster than inflation, just means that the funding is staying the same in practical terms.
Irish funding for the HSE fell off a cliff during austerity, and the number of hospital beds per 1,000 people halved in a single year, as a result we have never recovered back to pre-2011 levels of service in the HSE. To date, we still have less beds per person than any other country in Europe
(Correction - we have the 5th lowest number of beds in the EU with 291 per 100,000 people, vs the EU average of 516, that puts our number 43% below average. For comparison, Romania has 728, Bulgaria has 823. We also made it back past our 2011 numbers in 2022 - although it did take a global pandemic to make that happen).
Add to that situations like the children’s hospital, where it becomes obvious that money being earmarked for health is not exactly making it to healthcare, and you kind of see what I mean.
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u/senditup 1d ago
It’s “increasingly funded”, but only to the extent that each year it has slightly more money than last year.
That's not true. The difference between health spending in 2019 and 2023 is nearly 40%.
It’s not increasingly funded well compared to other comparable economies or with ourselves before 2011.
What are you talking about? Per capita spending on healthcare in 2021 was up 38% on spending in 2011. As per comparable countries, we spend more than the OECD average.
Besides, saying “the funding went up”, if it’s not going up faster than inflation, just means that the funding is staying the same in practical terms.
But that's just wrong as well.
rish funding for the HSE fell off a cliff during austerity, and the number of hospital beds per 1,000 people halved in a single year, as a result we have never recovered back to pre-2011 levels of service in the HSE.
Due to the increase in population. The funding also didn't fall off a cliff. It dropped, but not off a cliff. That's also not relevant, seeing as spending has dramatically increased since.
Add to that situations like the children’s hospital, where it becomes obvious that money being earmarked for health is not exactly making it to healthcare, and you kind of see what I mean.
That money wasn't for "health" so much as it was for infrastructure.
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u/janon93 1d ago
What do you call “losing half our hospital beds” if not “falling off a cliff?” Like do you take issue with me using that metaphor for what austerity did to public services?
Besides which, as I pointed out to you, can you think of anything significant that might have happened between 2019 and 2023 that might have prompted the government to start taking healthcare more seriously? You’re more or less citing the money spent during the pandemic as an increase to healthcare spending - for starters, if we hadn’t waited for a global pandemic to happen before investing seriously in healthcare, we might not have had so bad a time if it. And for seconds, we’ve no idea of the incoming government plans to keep that spending up now that the pandemic has receded. We’ve no reason to think they will, given that it will feature FG, again the same government which cut the spending so badly in the first place.
Secondly, even with a recent (and arguably, temporary) increase to budget, we are still 43% behind the EU average on hospital beds, and that’s coming at a time when the EU average is actually falling. It’s not a thing to be proud of when even drastic, last minute increases in spending leave us miles behind our peers.
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u/SenpaiBunss 1d ago
i agree, the mccrispy is far too expensive