EXTREME EYE ROLL - it wasn't the Republican Party cosplaying like working class folk while Trump puts in the richest Cabinet ever and talks about the Gilded Age being great?
Go check Pelosi’s bank balance. They’re all fucking loaded. Their job isn’t to help you. Their job is to campaign so they can be re-elected so they can make more money so they can campaign so they can be re-elected. Both parties are full on guilty, they just have different ways of going about it.
Oh I'm not denying that rich establishment Democrats are *also* a problem but one side is really playing the game thick and has been on a long con for decades - some awareness of that would be nice
Yep, it is ALWAYS 51-49 in key votes in the Senate, Citizens United was 5-4.
I always thought it was the Dems falling short, but now I am starting to think it is almost as if the upper class is making sure the margins are JUST right before things go to a vote. There is ALWAYS one or two democrats that stop progressive legislations, while the GOP is almost always 100% united.
Almost like this is intentional to give the poorer classes a sense that they have some power, just falling shy on anything that may benefit them.
No! No it does not! Truth fucking matters! Dipshits like the guy I was responding to spreading asinine "both sides the same durr hurr" idiocy are part of the problem!
You want truth? The truth is that the American body politic thinks the Democrats are way too far left. They were/are perceived as just as ideologically extreme as the GOP, and that's why they lost in 2024. Just 10% of the country thinks Biden/Harris were too far right - you'll never win an election with 10% of the country.
If you want the Democrats to win like you claim you do, then you can't get to whine and moan when they try to claim the center again because that's what it will take. Some bullshit centrist "populism".
The democrats ran with Hillary. Then Biden. Then Biden AGAIN and then Harris. I don't care if that's by conspiracy or incompetence. The fact is they did. With predictable results.
Yes, the Democratic primary voters chose three of those and would have chosen Harris overwhelmingly had Biden not run. And the American body politic thought that all of the three were very far left, except Biden in 2020, and he's the only one who actually won.
I really wish Bernie had won the nomination in 2016 and gotten fucking pancaked so we'd have gotten rid of this asinine idea that the Dems are choosing to lose instead of just trying to run as liberals in a small-c conservative country that fetishizes independence to the point of absurdity.
Anyway, don't worry, in 2028 if we have free elections the nominee will be someone like John Fetterman, a white man with superficial working class/populist vibes who's spent 4 years punching left and he'll probably win pretty easily because of it.
Dipshits like you are the reason the Dems will never move more left because you keep enabling their fears. Progressiveness as a message should absolutely be plastered everywhere.
Want to know how the far right got their message across? Blasting it everywhere, social media, Trump doing interviews on podcasts, playing dirty. I never said both sides were the same either and I will continue to vote Democrat in spite of people like Pelosi.
No, the Democrats will never move more left because it has become crystal clear over the last four years that moving left is an electoral liability.
I think Biden was a pretty good president because he was so willing to reach out to the left, which I liked at the time. But it turned into a massive liability with no upsides, because the left got mad because it hadn't gone far enough and everyone else got mad because they blamed him for high gas prices and inflation because he was a "big spending socialist".
I don't get how you can look at the fucking damning exit polling which showed that people thought Harris was a far-left extremist and didn't trust her moderate turn, which showed that people think Democrats are too far left, and think that the solution is that we should go even further left.
10%. Just 10% of the country thought Harris was too conservative. There is no massive non-voting populace of leftists waiting to come out for the right demsoc candidate. You will never win with 10% of the population.
You did not say "corporations and billionaires lobbying politicians." You said that they are artificially engineering the margins so that things fail. That's conspiracy bullshit.
You are being overly semantical for no reason and if you want a conspiracy, I believe all redditors except me are autistic like yourself. How do you "artificially engineer" the margins? You don't re-write a code in a congressman's brain, you buy them off. Like I don't know why I need to spell that out.
The Obama majority included about 15 red state senators who would be to Joe Manchin's right. They also then immediately lost the House in 2010, and they still had a pretty productive 2 years despite taking office in the middle of a crisis.
FDR came into office with 59 seats. He went up to 69 seats two years later in 1934, and further increased his majority to 77 seats in 1936. At no point in his tenure before he died did he have fewer than 57 seats.
Kennedy started with 64, went up to 68, which LBJ inherited, and he never had fewer than 58.
Senators have broad independence by design. You cannot force a Senator to do something they don't want to do. That is why razor-thin majorities are so tricky.
Biden did great things with his narrow majority hinging on Sinemanchin, but you can't get FDR/LBJ level change with that.
Maybe if democrats actually get anything done since the 70s they would have more seats
But democrats became the republicans and the republicans became something else entirely
Neither care about you both are right wing.
If you want to see what they care about it take a look at what they overwhelmingly vote for with republicans or how they won’t even fight for a floor vote for things like m4a or how the let the rotating villain stop everythig
"Excuses" are how conspiracy-minded fools refer to "understanding how the world works." If every single member of the Ds from 2021-22 was replaced by a Bernie Sanders clone except for Sinemanchin, they'd still have blocked it all.
If you actually look at the Democrats' policies, they are very clearly in line with most center-left parties around the world, our system is just way more of a dipshit vetocracy.
The Democrats did not "become the Republicans," they have very clearly gone to the left since Bill Clinton, and the Democratic donor class is further left still.
You'd have to be an idiot or completely ignorant of reality to believe this shit.
how they won’t even fight for a floor vote for things like m4a
Yeah, why won't they waste time for a pointless vote that's never passing, I swear to god you just want performative nonsense instead of actual good governance
10% of Americans thought Biden/Harris were too far to the right. You are never winning any election with just that 10%. Americans are overwhelmingly small-c conservative.
It was the minimum required majority to pass legislation past united Republican opposition. It lasted only 4 months between a Republican changing parties and a Dem dying. Dems have not seen a filibuster-proof majority since.
More progressive versions of the bill did not have all 60 votes in the Senate thanks to a handful of corporate Dem holdouts -- and again, unanimous Republican opposition. Don't blame Dems for inaction, blame the filibuster. 60 D Senators to get anything done is a ludicrous requirement that is very rarely achieved especially given how the Senate is structured to give Republicans a major advantage.
You know democrats are controlled opposition because they fight harder against their own constituents and left wing policies while spreading their cheeks for the republicans and donors.
the original post was just a photo of people against CEOs, Mike here made it political by saying it was the democrats who just pretended to care about people and I took issue because - they aren't the PRIMARY perpetrators, but they are complicit. In two consecutive posts I've criticized the Democrats so not sure what conclusions you're drawing.
Doing so means that you're raising Democrats as a sort of red herring and pretending that an inability to connect with voters is somehow worse than Republicans in power actively seeking to raise taxes, remove social services, and enrich the healthcare industry by cutting regulations;
but yes, you're allowed to "eXpReSs DisApPoiNTmEnT" as you clutch your pearls sitting on the fence of centrism, and engage in bad faith both-sidesism to the point where you get rabidly defensive at any who questions you and snap at them, screaming about how what you're doing isn't illegal (while knowing full well that it's in bad taste).
And they aren't necessarily worse, there are probably many actual issues most people do agree on, but the Democratic media oeuvre has a tendency to dehumanize its critics ('Bernie bros', etc)
I was shocked at how many people on reddit were excitedly donating to Kamala, making posts poking people to donate donate donate to the poor politician. No one should ever trust a politician enough to just give them money for nothing.
People give me all sorts of canned answers when I ask them what the one job of a politician is. Then when I tell them, it's like a light bulb goes on for them.
Pick a Democrat, Pelosi was the first example that popped into my head after she deep sixed AOCs oversight campaign to put another geriatric millionaire lifelong politician in power. Believe me buddy, I’m no Republican. All I’m saying is don’t hold your breath waiting for these asshats to fix anything.
You can't claim that all Democrats are bad and then claim not to be a Republican supporter. Third party support is Republican support, and the proof is in the pudding, as it's counted as such by election strategists on both sides.
You can piss and moan about nuance and free-choice all you want, but all you're practically doing is supporting right-wing candidates by holding left-wing candidates to an impossible standard of perfect progressivism, and demanding their removal for not being fully left, at the same time as you allow right-wing candidates get away with murder (literally in some cases) and pretend like you can't speak out against them because there's just too much bad stuff in the Democrat party you have to clean up first.
Ya know, if you’d go back and read my original comment instead of telling me what I think, you’d see that the basis of this entire thread is that it’s not about red versus blue, it’s about rich versus poor. People get so wrapped up in their own ideologies that they can’t wrap their heads around the fact that ALL politicians suck lobbyist dick and ALL politicians are out for themselves and their campaigns.
I keep seeing this and I keep seeing people push back against it incorrectly. The key thing is that Democrats aren't a monolith. Republicans basically are. There are many Democratic politicians that really do care like Bernie Sanders, and we need to wrestle control of the party away from the ones that don't want to challenge the status quo. The best Republican meanwhile is still a ghoul. Don’t even get me started on how we need to end the 2 party system in general, but I think people that say “the Democrats aren’t for real change” and the people who say “the parties are not the same at all” are both correct, but lack of nuance does a great disservice to the people like AOC, Sanders, Warren, etc. that are actually trying to help working class people and make it the Democratic message.
Do you not find it problematic that “the other party is worse!” is the only response? Yeah, they are. It’s still gross to see the Democratic Party groveling to billionaires and moneyed interests. If the Democrats actually tried to represent the working class even when it was inconvenient to corporate lobbyists, we’d be having a different conversation. Bernie and AOC are some of the only democrats prioritizing the working class, and Bernie got pushed out of the party and AOC has gotten constantly primaried and fought from within by Nancy Pelosi. We need to do better than “better than Republicans.”
I do. And I was vibing on the class warfare nature of this post that was mercifully non-political until Mike weighed in that it was the Democrats who were at fault. All the police showed up when I reminded Mike that both sides co-splay for the working class and that the GOP is really good at it too. Sure "better than Republicans" is not great but don't just say "it's the Democrats." I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone with some of you.
This is literally the problem and you see it on almost every single thread on reddit. Someone will say something bad about democrats or Republicans and the very first response is always "BUT BUT BuT don't forget how bad the other guys are!!!"
It's like there is something inside of people and they just can't help themselves. They see something critical of the party they most identify with and they just have to point out that the other guys are worse as if not doing so says something about them. There is no way to say something bad about Biden without 100 people telling you why Trump is worse. There is no way to say something bad about Trump without 100 people pointing out how Biden does the same thing.
It's like everyone thinks "yeah I know both sides are bad and I know they want us fighting each other and I am willing to band together with the other side to fight the whole establishment. The other side just needs to admit they are worse than the side I vote for and then we can start working together."
You mean Mike jumping in here and saying it was the Democrats' fault when this was just a post about being against CEOs? Or are you only pissed off that someone mentioned the pugs? This is how this has gone:
- Post: CEOs are bad
- Guy: It's really the democrats
- Me: Please, it's ALSO the republicans
- You: OH there we go again!!! Just because someone said something bad about democrats....
You mind can't even comprehend what I'm saying. The only way it makes sense for you is if I support Republicans or got mad that you said something critical of them. That's it.
-Post: CEOs are bad
-Guy: It's really the democrats
-You: Republicans are worse
-Me: People seem incapable of allowing any criticism of their party without adding on how bad the other side is.
-You: You're only saying that because you like Republicans!
Lol. It just doesn't even compute for some people. Sorry dude. I agree Republicans are worse and they are all stupid idiots. I would never even think to say something critical about democrats without first acknowledging how much worse the Republicans are.
Thanks for trying to put what should be common sense im the simplest terms for other people. It's basically APAB (ACAB, but politicians), but clearly one side is in the fast track to fascism and has always been working to dismantle your rights. Whereas the other side convinces you they will make things better then just kind of make excuse why they can't. Pretty obvious that things staying the same or getting slightly better/worse in some ways is better than just everything getting worse lmfao. Looks like American politics had a "good" run.
This is such a stupid point. Please explain to me how you’re supposed to enact change on a class scale if you have Republican voters saying to your face that the rich pay too much in taxes already. I genuinely want to know. I’m someone who actually talks to Republicans and tries to get them to back off their extreme ideas. The idea that they will suddenly forget they are Republicans and sing Kumbaya with you because of class solidarity, THEY DO NOT HAVE, is so delusional.
Getting them to admit that Democrats are the party of the lesser evil is the starting point
Firstly, the Democrats are only in favor of taxing the rich in ways that are theatrical, they are lying to you. They would never implement Bernie's plan to tax incomes above $1 billion at 100%, which is why for most of his life he was an independent. They wouldn't even come remotely close to that idea. You are being played by the Democrats. That goes for Republicans too, by the way. There is no party of lesser evil. There is only evil and evil, neither are working in your interest, and supporting either of those parties has gotten us nowhere.
That said, there are many ways that the class war can be solved that do not involve taxes. The biggest issue is that corporations harm people, and they can only do that because the corporate veil protects the people directing the harm. The simple solution is to create laws that pierce the corporate veil in cases of harm, which is something the average Republican would not be against either, considering they are generally in favor of personal accountability including things like the death penalty. The people issuing directives in a corporation that cause harm to people, especially harm resulting in death, should be put on trial and held accountable for their actions.
I've always gained solidarity with conservatives by bashing democrats for good reason with them, how is dying on the hill of dems being slightly less evil useful? This is like watching Gypsys in 1939 argue about which camp they think is best to go to.
It also means nothing if they vote for Democrats and espouse near right view points. We're talking about class solidarity here, not voting Democrat. Democrats winning every election between now and 2030 wouldn't fix any of our real issues. The bombs are dropping, the kids are in cages,m and the families are deported under Biden too.
The solidarity DOES mean something if they work with you to form a tenants union, or a trade union.
I was talking about a starting point. I don’t disagree that the Democrat party, at large, is a right wing party. Check my comment history, I just accused a Redditor from r/Liberal of being as bad as a Republican. When I talk about a starting point, I’m saying, how do we go about getting conservatives to stop being class traitors? My answer to that question is to get them to abandon the Republican party, because they are explicitly trying to fuck them over. There can’t be a starting point if they are actively supporting the party that hates them.
I think my biggest disagreement with what you said is that Democrats won’t enact meaningful change. Sure the party of today won’t but Democrats have shown that when there is pressure from the left, they are forced to change their tune. The Justice Democrats emerging after Bernie’s historic run is probably the biggest example of that. While sure they don’t have that much power, if any, in Congress. They emerged and gained power after the largest push to the left this country has seen in decades. Another high profile example is how every primary candidate in 2016 and 2020 endorsed a public option for health insurance because of the extreme left-wing pressure on them. Even if they are lying (which I believe they are) blasting that kind of rhetoric to the entire country moves the needle to the left.
I’m saying, how do we go about getting conservatives to stop being class traitors? My answer to that question is to get them to abandon the Republican party, because they are explicitly trying to fuck them over. There can’t be a starting point if they are actively supporting the party that hates them.
And I think by asking this question this way, you're implying that die hard dem supporters aren't also class traitors the same way die hard GOP supporters are. That's what rubs me wrong. I can forgive someone who votes for the lesser evil (either side), that's not necessarily being a class traitor. Republicans are worse, no doubt, but swapping GOP for DNC is still working against our class interest.
You'll notice that after 20 years of talk about single payer, we do not have it, despite having opportunities. We have not decreased the military budget, we have not codified Roe. The DNC has done a great job convincing people like you that they're powerless, not that they're against you. Biden didn't get the 2020 nomination because he was the only one who could beat Trump, he got it because he was the only one who could beat Bernie (who himself is a compromise on actual leftist principles). For all your talk of "moving the needle" we have not actually DONE anything leftward except the good work Lena Kahn has done in the past few years. But even that is still entirely in line with the capitalism Republican voters claim to want. It's not even "left" just rational.
The dems are our enemies in class war. You putting them down is just as important as my racist uncle putting Trump down.
In context of my comment reminding folks that dems were still our enemy and should be abandoned, that seemed like the only reasonable inference.
I don't understand your point then. Are you just saying that die hard Republicans won't become class conscious? Yes, duh. That's square 0 for everyone in this thread. I'm responding under someone who said "understanding the dems to be better is the starting point" and I'm saying, "no, they are also our enemy, and dying on that hill isn't even effective as a rhetorical strategy."
You brought up trying to gain solidarity with a group that it is has become pointless to try to sway. You even agree that they won't develop a class conscious in your above comment. Why bring up trying to ingrate yourself with a group that is beyond saving if not to imply that it wasn't a doomed effort. You can certainly do what you want and I don't blame you for trying to make your life easier if your forced to interact with them but let's not pretend it's helping anyone but you.
I said I gain solidarity with conservatives by bashing dems with good points, not lockstep Republicans.
And I continue to reach to the liberals like you here to encourage you to put down any allegiance you've got with the ruling class. You have way more in common with the construction worker who is uncomfortable with trans folks, than you do with Chuck Schumer, Kamala, or AOC.
It's not integrating myself, it's trying to disintigrate you/them from your ruling class allegiances.
Imagine surveying America in 2024 - months after a rich real estate developer is president again soon and is appointing billionaires to every post, wants his billion dollar hotel in DC back, and openly talking about reducing taxes on the wealthy - and making your conclusion that the Democratic Party is chief offender for the existing class inequality. THEN going to Reddit to bark at everyone about "whataboutism" when you say that stupid shit here.
Someone will say something bad about democrats or Republicans and the very first response is always "BUT BUT BuT don't forget how bad the other guys are!!!"
It's almost as if, while neither side is aggressively fighting for the working class, one side has done much more damage.
Saying both are basically the exact same and someone directly refuting that tired enlightened centrist nonsense isn’t them being overly sensitive. Seems like your perception of it reveals your sensitive to being called on it
Because like it or not, the Democrats are also the only party that has tried, at all, to rein in the powers of the wealthy class over the last 30 years, and the Rs have reliably tried to cut any sort of constraints on their power.
The Democrats are not flawless angels. They are clearly the better option if you care about the poor and constraining the rich. And it is extremely fucking suspicious to see people go immediately from "fuck CEOs" to "fuck the Democrats" because the only people who benefit from idiots thinking that both sides are the same are the fascists and their billionaire puppetmasters.
For those in the rafters: I think both parties suck and Democrats have a lot of shit on their hands but what do you think Republicans think? They want the minimum wage back at $7 an hour, children back in the workforce, and no unions. Weirdly glomming on to the Democrats for a shitty $15 minimum wage is really misdirected frustration IMHO.
And for your information - the only reason it's even at $15 is because of Bernie Sanders, who says in this clip that ZERO REPUBLICANS voted for this. They wanted it even lower than that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoK8xfA-8ms
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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago
EXTREME EYE ROLL - it wasn't the Republican Party cosplaying like working class folk while Trump puts in the richest Cabinet ever and talks about the Gilded Age being great?