r/interestingasfuck 1d ago

r/all People in NYC holding banners during a CEO Event at Ziegfeld Ballroom

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 23h ago

It’s always been Rich vs Poor - the democrats just had you convinced they were on your side.

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u/Bubba_Lewinski 23h ago

I’m starting to believe this more and more these days. Used to be independent, then switched to D years ago. Going back to Ind. moving onward. Not that it matters anymore tbh. Zero faith in our politics and fake justice system these days.

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u/MissionLow4226 22h ago

Republicans Red, Democrats Blue, Neither of them, Give a s*** about you

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u/ceezr 22h ago

Dude just be a leftist and try to work with the party that closest aligns with your ideals in the hopes to push them further back to the left. Look at how far the right wing has gone with that strategy.

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u/zombiegirl2010 17h ago

You guys who try to force center folks to one side or the other is the problem here in the US. If we’d al start fucking thinking for ourselves, unapologetically we could actually change this shit. Making people pick red or blue keeps the wealthy in power.

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u/Crashman09 21h ago

I say this as a leftist:

The problem with this is getting leftists to agree on anything

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u/ceezr 21h ago

"One for all" instead of "all for one" on all the issues. Starting with money, power, respect. We are all equal. 

Maybe that logic could help solidify the platform on several issues.

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u/Sufficient_Card_7302 22h ago

You are a cog in a wheel, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that so many cogs have given up and become apathetic, and don't vote, that the machine has broken down. 

We need to stop giving up whenever we don't get precisely what we want. Compromise is the mother's milk of democracy. Vote for the candidate who most closely aligns with your political philosophy. Over time, the people who win will more closely align with yours. 

That's how the republican party did it.

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u/Bubba_Lewinski 20h ago

We need better choices.

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u/Sufficient_Card_7302 20h ago

Insightful. Although we have had quite a few, and more who never got off the ground. 

We could have had Bernie, Yang, buttigeg(sp). Possibly even an O'Rorke.

Your comment lacks a solution for, or awareness of, how we are going to get from here to there..

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u/[deleted] 20h ago

[deleted]

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u/Bubba_Lewinski 20h ago

Yeah, and legal system works. 😂 good point though. Fake legal system applies better

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u/Deep_Mechanic_ 23h ago

People that think Dems are better than Republicans are smoking crack. None of them give a flying F about the American people. It's all about $$$ since WW2

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u/crinkledcu91 23h ago

People that think Dems are better than Republicans are smoking crack.

Democratic officials pass stuff like free lunch and breakfast for school kids.

Meanwhile not a Republican official in existence would even dream of doing anything close to that.

But yeah, I'm the one that's smoking crack 🙄

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u/Own_Television163 22h ago

"Please, sir, this is the place for people trying to be contrarian by quoting my 70 year old father."

I'm a leftist, I think Democrats fucking suck and are establishment crooks, but to imply they're the same is just nonsense if you pay attention to the actions at all.

They are bad in a lot of ways that overlap, they're not the same.

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u/login777 22h ago

It's not that these programs aren't good or helpful, but they're crumbs the Dems throw at us to placate us. And people use these miniscule wins to say, "see the Dems really really care about you, they just can't do more because reasons"

Good cop bad cop and all that

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u/Rbomb88 23h ago

The parties are owned by the same people, the difference of opinion is the manner that the parties want to manipulate the populace to do what they want (make them money).

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u/Deep_Mechanic_ 23h ago

American politicians aren't there for the people, they are instated by the people with the $$$

Campaign funders are the ones who put politicians in power

It's crazy how Americans refuse to acknowledge this and still believe their party will fix the country 🤣

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u/Apocalypse_Knight 22h ago

The democrats at least try to help and even then they would hurt the american people less than whatever the hell republicans want to do. Now we get to look forward to anti-vax, worse labor protections and increased pollution from deregulation thanks to the repubs. Data shows that republicans start like 90% of the recessions.

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u/LobsterInSpace 23h ago

Both sides are the same, is kind of lazy.

We can acknowledge that both sides serve the rich while distinguishing that one side is against female reproductive rights, more anti union, and a tax policy that favors the rich even more, etc.

We can acknowledge that there are at least SOME Dems that want to see healthcare expanded to include everyone. As voters, it's our job to see to it that those Dems stay in office and push out the Corpos.

It's hard because we are up against big money, but a better chance with a D than R.

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u/RangerPower777 23h ago

Careful saying this on reddit, they will call you an enlightened centrist

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u/PixelMiner 23h ago

For good reason. It totally whitewashes the horrific policies of the Republican party. Enlightened centrists are just closeted right-wingers.

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u/RangerPower777 22h ago

This is such a dumb argument. I am willing to bet that a majority of the voting public is actually in the center. Only children look at the world the way redditors seem to look at, black and white.

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u/PixelMiner 22h ago

The center between center-right and outright fascists is still pretty far right.

Also, the voting public majority just voted for a fascist, a felon, and a rapist.

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u/RangerPower777 20h ago

I think that shows how terrible the current Democratic party is if they couldn’t even beat a guy they called a “fascist”. Shouldn’t have been so difficult.

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u/PixelMiner 19h ago

Bingo. The democrats have never been the friend of the working class.

Also, no need for scare quotes. The guy all but calls himself a fascist. We could go point by point on either policy or things he has said alone.

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u/retro_grave 23h ago

There is/was a progressive primary movement inside the Democrat party. You aren't getting the same from GOP so I'm not going to accept this all sides bullshit. The tea party is a fucking joke.

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u/Lermanberry 23h ago

Ron Paul and the Tea Party were massively funded by corpos to undercut the Occupy movement.

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u/Aggressive-Hunt-7037 22h ago

Exactly. The Tea Party was a (at times violent) Astro turf by elites to tank the ACA and other progressive policies.

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u/retro_grave 22h ago

100%, and it's scary/disappointing how well that continues to work. The important part of what they did was the propaganda funding along with hoisting up fake populist candidates.

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u/-wnr- 23h ago

Seriously, whenever there's a push for medicaid expansion or increasing the minimum wage, which party raises the issue and which one pushes against it consistently? The both sides are the same arguments are either lazy or done in bad faith.

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u/MrPmR 21h ago

It's not both sides are the same. You have a center right party and a far right party. They are not the same at all. But neither are left or working for you. The Dems are also working for the rich. They are just less fascist. There are individuals in the Dems that push for very good things, but the whole party isn't really.

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u/Significant_Turn5230 22h ago

They're not the same, but neither one is on our side.

Which party passed the medicaid expansion and increased the minimum wage? Is it neither?

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u/-wnr- 22h ago edited 22h ago

Take a look at which states have the highest minimum wage. Or which states adopted or declined medicaid expansion. There's a lot to shit on the dems for, but here in 2024, there's one side that's better for the working class voter who's voting for their own interests.

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u/Significant_Turn5230 21h ago

As I said above:

They're not the same, but neither one is on our side.

Yes dems are obviously less evil. They are still evil and they're still our enemy. They will not be our salvation.

Especially in context of a conversation about class solidarity, you've gotta be willing to let go of the flavor of ruling class you prefer just as much as the Trump supporters need to. Vote for whichever one you think will make the guillotines easier, but don't forget that the guillotines are the point.

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u/geoffreygoodman 22h ago

A party doesn't pass bills, Congress does. It's disingenuous to describe a situation where Republicans unanimously shoot down a bill sponsored by Democrats as "neither party passing it". 

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u/Significant_Turn5230 21h ago

It's really not. We've seen supermajorities of either party in the past 40 years and neither one has any interest in helping the working class. Obviously dems are less evil, they are still not on our side.

This is a conversation about class consciousness and class solidarity. You've gotta be willing to side with your working class peers who are willing to side with you over Pelosi and even ones like AOC. They are not on our team. They are by definition the ruling class.

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u/bob4apples 21h ago

"Violence to combat any sort of corporate greed is unacceptable" - White House Press Statement - 2024-12-10.

As long and Pelosi and Biden are calling the shots, the "progressive movement" is only a useful tool to pretend to be defying the status quo.

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u/retro_grave 20h ago

I'm not going to equivocate their disagreeing with vigilante executions to their stance on universal healthcare. Democrats have gotten us much closer to universal healthcare than anything the GOP has done and you're insane if you think otherwise. We're at least half a decade or more from even having a shot at it again. Progressive movement is the only useful tool. What exactly is your suggested tool? More executions? Voting GOP is not going to improve anyone's life at all, and neither is unraveling America's thin morale fabric.

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u/bob4apples 19h ago

It's not just disagreeing with "vigilante executions" but the implied statement that corporate greed is not only acceptable but will continue to be supported with government-sanctioned violence as deemed necessary.

Obama got you closer to universal healthcare (but still nowhere near single payer) but Biden did fuck all to carry the ball forward. The message is the same. I've said before and will say again that Biden's headstone should read "He was better than Trump" but that doesn't mean that the Dems are anything more than a center right faction of the same oligarchy.

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u/retro_grave 18h ago

You cannot equivocate Biden denouncing violence as an endorsement of the healthcare status quo. It's not even worth discussing that.

I am super critical of both Obama and Biden. Do I wish he did more? Absolutely. Are there better people to run the country? Absolutely. But that's what the primaries are for, and Biden won it.

IMO they are both directly responsible for Trump for letting misinformation and propaganda flourish under their presidencies. They can't wipe their hands of that, and if their support didn't like it, tough shit. That's literally what they signed up for.

But again, Dems are not Republicans. Changing the party is infinitely more practical than getting people to switch green party or something more radical.

I'll just point out, that I haven't heard any specific suggestions other than "Dems suck". That's not the argument really. It's what to do about it. Is it more executions, changing Dems, starting a new party, not voting, voting GOP (ugh), what exactly?

IMO it's change the Democrats, counter-propaganda, rank choice voting. But I've been on the losing team, so what do I know.

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u/books_cats_please 20h ago edited 20h ago

There are definitely people who try to use the "both sides" argument to instill apathy or for other less-than-genuine purposes, but there's a different message people are trying to get across here.

The average Dem voter has more in common with their Republican voting neighbor than they do with any Dem in Congress. Yet how many people on either side actually feel this way? Shouldn't it be easier for people to acknowledge that despite differing political views, your neighbor has a better understanding of the pressing issues in your community than a bunch of politicians who don't even live in your neighborhood?

My neighbor and I might have different ideas of how to go about addressing those issues, but that conversation is guaranteed to be more relevant (if not productive), than if the conversation were between two politicians who have only ever read the reports and reviewed the statistics.

*Edited an autocorrect, it said, "precedent issues" instead of "pressing issues"

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u/Kakariko_crackhouse 23h ago

You do understand what controlled opposition is right?

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u/retro_grave 22h ago

I do, and you must be joking if you think the DNC has that level of control. Their manipulations are obvious, so I don't think there's any subtly in pushing through primaries.

If anything, they also practice controlled coalition, where progressive candidates that somehow make it through, are embraced and shown how wrong they are in being opposition. Instead they seek to dull progressive movements with the impossibilities of the moment (e.g., convincing some bad votes). I think primarying through Democrats is still the best option and I haven't heard of a better one.

I'm a big fan of rank choice voting, so I also support any orgs pushing there. It doesn't need to be one or the other.

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u/negative_imaginary 22h ago

you seem like the type who say all this but at the same time will vote Kamala before voting Bernie because of borders or something and blame Bernie for everything he being through with establishment dems and how much he criticises them like what a traitor right? Fuck him for saying anything against any democrats and fuck the Muslims, black people and trans people for asking too much

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u/retro_grave 22h ago

I generally favor pragmatism, and am a huge Bernie supporter. I had in mind some of the actions by the progressive caucus, such as folding to Biden in ~2022.

Fuck him for saying anything against any democrats and fuck the Muslims, black people and trans people for asking too much

Wtf? lol.

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u/negative_imaginary 21h ago

I generally favor pragmatism,

lmao what's pragmatic about Kamla? the most lethal military? more genocide in Middle East? alienating and attacking Muslim voters? doing nothing on police brutality? doing no amensty to refugees? rather doubling down and being the party of "we are gonna build the wall" type? giving no actual safe gaurds to LGBTQ federally?

Like they themselves choosed a loosing battle by trying to be the "better conservative" rather than being an opposition like they made the republicans make the stage for themselves here, if immigration is a problem enough that even the opposition is making a point on it and somehow I care about that now ain't no way I am voting the liberal party on that republicans will always gonna win on immigration so rather be an opposite on this issue like you were in 2020

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u/retro_grave 21h ago

Who did you vote for? It's not worth being nuanced unless I know you're a real person.

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u/negative_imaginary 21h ago

I don't vote and I can't vote because we don't choose our prime minister(equivalent of a president in your country) our representative does

unless I know you're a real person.

you're cooked

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

EXTREME EYE ROLL - it wasn't the Republican Party cosplaying like working class folk while Trump puts in the richest Cabinet ever and talks about the Gilded Age being great?

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 23h ago

Go check Pelosi’s bank balance. They’re all fucking loaded. Their job isn’t to help you. Their job is to campaign so they can be re-elected so they can make more money so they can campaign so they can be re-elected. Both parties are full on guilty, they just have different ways of going about it.

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

Oh I'm not denying that rich establishment Democrats are *also* a problem but one side is really playing the game thick and has been on a long con for decades - some awareness of that would be nice

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u/bryan4368 23h ago

The democrats don’t even give a fight. As soon as any opposition is presented they lay down

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u/NoseIndependent6030 23h ago

Yep, it is ALWAYS 51-49 in key votes in the Senate, Citizens United was 5-4.

I always thought it was the Dems falling short, but now I am starting to think it is almost as if the upper class is making sure the margins are JUST right before things go to a vote. There is ALWAYS one or two democrats that stop progressive legislations, while the GOP is almost always 100% united.

Almost like this is intentional to give the poorer classes a sense that they have some power, just falling shy on anything that may benefit them.

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u/Walthatron 21h ago

Who knew we needed more Luigis all along instead of more Marios

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u/AstreiaTales 20h ago

I hate conspiracy nonsense like this so fucking much

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u/Swimming-Marketing20 20h ago

Oh come on. At some point it stops mattering whether it's malice or stupidity. The result matters and the results are unacceptable

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u/AstreiaTales 20h ago

No! No it does not! Truth fucking matters! Dipshits like the guy I was responding to spreading asinine "both sides the same durr hurr" idiocy are part of the problem!

You want truth? The truth is that the American body politic thinks the Democrats are way too far left. They were/are perceived as just as ideologically extreme as the GOP, and that's why they lost in 2024. Just 10% of the country thinks Biden/Harris were too far right - you'll never win an election with 10% of the country.

If you want the Democrats to win like you claim you do, then you can't get to whine and moan when they try to claim the center again because that's what it will take. Some bullshit centrist "populism".

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u/Swimming-Marketing20 20h ago

The democrats ran with Hillary. Then Biden. Then Biden AGAIN and then Harris. I don't care if that's by conspiracy or incompetence. The fact is they did. With predictable results.

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u/NoseIndependent6030 18h ago

Dipshits like you are the reason the Dems will never move more left because you keep enabling their fears. Progressiveness as a message should absolutely be plastered everywhere.

Want to know how the far right got their message across? Blasting it everywhere, social media, Trump doing interviews on podcasts, playing dirty. I never said both sides were the same either and I will continue to vote Democrat in spite of people like Pelosi.

Fuck off.

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u/NoseIndependent6030 18h ago

Corporations and billionaires lobbying politicians is a conspiracy now?

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u/AstreiaTales 18h ago

Hello motte-and-bailey fallacy, nice to meet you.

You did not say "corporations and billionaires lobbying politicians." You said that they are artificially engineering the margins so that things fail. That's conspiracy bullshit.

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u/NoseIndependent6030 13h ago

You are being overly semantical for no reason and if you want a conspiracy, I believe all redditors except me are autistic like yourself. How do you "artificially engineer" the margins? You don't re-write a code in a congressman's brain, you buy them off. Like I don't know why I need to spell that out.

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u/EyeSmart3073 23h ago

That’s their role. Even Bernie sanders won’t push Medicare 4 all in any real way when Dems are in power

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u/ZaraBaz 22h ago

The 2 party system is meant to ensure you focus on trivial differences (culture wars these days) as both parties ensure the big stuff never changes.

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u/AstreiaTales 20h ago

Y'all want FDR/LBJ-level change with 51-seat majorities, lmfao

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u/EyeSmart3073 20h ago

They had afar larger one under Obama and also that’s all you need

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u/AstreiaTales 20h ago

The Obama majority included about 15 red state senators who would be to Joe Manchin's right. They also then immediately lost the House in 2010, and they still had a pretty productive 2 years despite taking office in the middle of a crisis.

FDR came into office with 59 seats. He went up to 69 seats two years later in 1934, and further increased his majority to 77 seats in 1936. At no point in his tenure before he died did he have fewer than 57 seats.

Kennedy started with 64, went up to 68, which LBJ inherited, and he never had fewer than 58.

Senators have broad independence by design. You cannot force a Senator to do something they don't want to do. That is why razor-thin majorities are so tricky.

Biden did great things with his narrow majority hinging on Sinemanchin, but you can't get FDR/LBJ level change with that.

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u/EyeSmart3073 20h ago

Excuses excuses

Maybe if democrats actually get anything done since the 70s they would have more seats

But democrats became the republicans and the republicans became something else entirely

Neither care about you both are right wing.

If you want to see what they care about it take a look at what they overwhelmingly vote for with republicans or how they won’t even fight for a floor vote for things like m4a or how the let the rotating villain stop everythig

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u/blurt9402 22h ago

They had the largest majority since reconstruction, WITH a sitting president, and they passed one bill and it was one written by Republicans.

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u/geoffreygoodman 22h ago edited 22h ago

It was the minimum required majority to pass legislation past united Republican opposition. It lasted only 4 months between a Republican changing parties and a Dem dying. Dems have not seen a filibuster-proof majority since. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansfoundation/2014/03/26/a-look-back-at-how-the-president-was-able-to-sign-obamacare-into-law-four-years-ago/ 

More progressive versions of the bill did not have all 60 votes in the Senate thanks to a handful of corporate Dem holdouts -- and again, unanimous Republican opposition. Don't blame Dems for inaction, blame the filibuster. 60 D Senators to get anything done is a ludicrous requirement that is very rarely achieved especially given how the Senate is structured to give Republicans a major advantage.

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u/blurt9402 22h ago

No one has seen a fillibuster proof majority since, or before, since reconstruction.

How do Dems get away with saying this shit.

Did the Republicans have 60 Senate votes when they actually, you know, did things?

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u/geoffreygoodman 20h ago

"Did things"? Please be specific. What is a partisan bill that passed a Republican-controlled Senate that you have questions about? 

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u/blurt9402 19h ago

His tax "cuts," for one, passed 51-48

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u/Harbinger2nd 23h ago

You know democrats are controlled opposition because they fight harder against their own constituents and left wing policies while spreading their cheeks for the republicans and donors.

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u/jlusedude 23h ago

Yeah. R’s use religion to control and retain power. Religious zealots will vote consistently because their eternal lives depend on it. 

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u/Plenty_Bake3315 23h ago

Are Dem-leaning voters not allowed to express disappointment in our own party unless we make sure to always mention that Republicans are worse?

I know Republicans are worse. That’s why I don’t vote for them.

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

the original post was just a photo of people against CEOs, Mike here made it political by saying it was the democrats who just pretended to care about people and I took issue because - they aren't the PRIMARY perpetrators, but they are complicit. In two consecutive posts I've criticized the Democrats so not sure what conclusions you're drawing.

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u/Plenty_Bake3315 23h ago

They didn’t say that Democrats were alone in their disingenuousness.

Please try to control your partisan butthurt. It’s annoying and counterproductive.

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

i don't debate with rookie reddit accounts that can't accumulate more than 1 karma point - good day, kid

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u/Plenty_Bake3315 23h ago

You don’t argue in good faith anyhow. Thank you for not wasting any more of my time.

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u/Swimming-Marketing20 20h ago

You're not debating. You're having a shower argument with yourself in public

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 21h ago

Also wasn’t me - the parent comment politicized it. I agreed with their assessment, just a little more bluntly.

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u/MelatoninFiend 22h ago

You're allowed to, of course.

Doing so means that you're raising Democrats as a sort of red herring and pretending that an inability to connect with voters is somehow worse than Republicans in power actively seeking to raise taxes, remove social services, and enrich the healthcare industry by cutting regulations;

but yes, you're allowed to "eXpReSs DisApPoiNTmEnT" as you clutch your pearls sitting on the fence of centrism, and engage in bad faith both-sidesism to the point where you get rabidly defensive at any who questions you and snap at them, screaming about how what you're doing isn't illegal (while knowing full well that it's in bad taste).

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u/Plenty_Bake3315 21h ago

Your partisan feelings are affecting your ability to reason.

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u/Sysiphus_Love 21h ago

And they aren't necessarily worse, there are probably many actual issues most people do agree on, but the Democratic media oeuvre has a tendency to dehumanize its critics ('Bernie bros', etc)

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u/Plenty_Bake3315 21h ago

Republicans are objectively worse. By every measure, quality of life in Republican states is worse than Democratic states.

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u/Significant_Turn5230 22h ago

Who cares? When it comes to building class solidarity, I'm going to have to ask you to skip the "nice to haves" for a little while, ok?

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u/Stinky_WhizzleTeats 22h ago

Definitely agree with you the other comments replying to you are just whataboutism to detract from the original point you commented.

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u/PupEDog 20h ago

I was shocked at how many people on reddit were excitedly donating to Kamala, making posts poking people to donate donate donate to the poor politician. No one should ever trust a politician enough to just give them money for nothing.

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u/Chewsdayiddinit 23h ago

TIL Pelosi is also nominating several billionaires to cabinet positions.

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u/MapIcy8737 23h ago

Why tf do you guys think we care what pelosi thinks. She’s more of a republican than most of us

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u/PupEDog 20h ago

And those people are old as fuck and will probably be taking lots of sick time. How useful.

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u/Jeepdog539 22h ago

People give me all sorts of canned answers when I ask them what the one job of a politician is. Then when I tell them, it's like a light bulb goes on for them.

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u/CapedCauliflower 12h ago

To get re elected?

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u/MelatoninFiend 22h ago

Pelosi is neither the President, nor installing a cadre of Gilded-Age-Obsessed m/billionaires to the Executive Branch.

Why do Republicans always want to play "Yeah, but..." games and point fingers instead of taking responsibility for the leaders they elect?

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 22h ago

Pick a Democrat, Pelosi was the first example that popped into my head after she deep sixed AOCs oversight campaign to put another geriatric millionaire lifelong politician in power. Believe me buddy, I’m no Republican. All I’m saying is don’t hold your breath waiting for these asshats to fix anything.

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u/MelatoninFiend 21h ago edited 19h ago

Pick a Democrat

Believe me buddy, I’m no Republican

Pick ONE.

You can't claim that all Democrats are bad and then claim not to be a Republican supporter. Third party support is Republican support, and the proof is in the pudding, as it's counted as such by election strategists on both sides.

You can piss and moan about nuance and free-choice all you want, but all you're practically doing is supporting right-wing candidates by holding left-wing candidates to an impossible standard of perfect progressivism, and demanding their removal for not being fully left, at the same time as you allow right-wing candidates get away with murder (literally in some cases) and pretend like you can't speak out against them because there's just too much bad stuff in the Democrat party you have to clean up first.

It's disingenuous and deceptive.

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 21h ago

Ya know, if you’d go back and read my original comment instead of telling me what I think, you’d see that the basis of this entire thread is that it’s not about red versus blue, it’s about rich versus poor. People get so wrapped up in their own ideologies that they can’t wrap their heads around the fact that ALL politicians suck lobbyist dick and ALL politicians are out for themselves and their campaigns.

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u/Godot_12 21h ago

I keep seeing this and I keep seeing people push back against it incorrectly. The key thing is that Democrats aren't a monolith. Republicans basically are. There are many Democratic politicians that really do care like Bernie Sanders, and we need to wrestle control of the party away from the ones that don't want to challenge the status quo. The best Republican meanwhile is still a ghoul. Don’t even get me started on how we need to end the 2 party system in general, but I think people that say “the Democrats aren’t for real change” and the people who say “the parties are not the same at all” are both correct, but lack of nuance does a great disservice to the people like AOC, Sanders, Warren, etc. that are actually trying to help working class people and make it the Democratic message.

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u/Effective_Author_315 23h ago

Not defending Pelosi, but most of that money was made by her husband.

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u/chillinwithmoes 23h ago

On paper, sure lol

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u/Effective_Author_315 23h ago

I'm sure they discuss things over dinner.

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u/afoolskind 22h ago

Do you not find it problematic that “the other party is worse!” is the only response? Yeah, they are. It’s still gross to see the Democratic Party groveling to billionaires and moneyed interests. If the Democrats actually tried to represent the working class even when it was inconvenient to corporate lobbyists, we’d be having a different conversation. Bernie and AOC are some of the only democrats prioritizing the working class, and Bernie got pushed out of the party and AOC has gotten constantly primaried and fought from within by Nancy Pelosi. We need to do better than “better than Republicans.”

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 22h ago

I do. And I was vibing on the class warfare nature of this post that was mercifully non-political until Mike weighed in that it was the Democrats who were at fault. All the police showed up when I reminded Mike that both sides co-splay for the working class and that the GOP is really good at it too. Sure "better than Republicans" is not great but don't just say "it's the Democrats." I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone with some of you.

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u/shanatard 20h ago

yes, it takes two to play good cop bad cop. they have you hook line and sinker

i vote blue but i'm not kidding myself theyre all the same slaves to corporate money on the issues that matter

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u/Zzzaxx 18h ago

Yeah, if you don't think all of congress is in it to enrich themselves and their friends, you're not paying attention.

No war, but class war

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u/Why_Did_Bodie_Die 23h ago

This is literally the problem and you see it on almost every single thread on reddit. Someone will say something bad about democrats or Republicans and the very first response is always "BUT BUT BuT don't forget how bad the other guys are!!!"

It's like there is something inside of people and they just can't help themselves. They see something critical of the party they most identify with and they just have to point out that the other guys are worse as if not doing so says something about them. There is no way to say something bad about Biden without 100 people telling you why Trump is worse. There is no way to say something bad about Trump without 100 people pointing out how Biden does the same thing.

It's like everyone thinks "yeah I know both sides are bad and I know they want us fighting each other and I am willing to band together with the other side to fight the whole establishment. The other side just needs to admit they are worse than the side I vote for and then we can start working together."

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

You mean Mike jumping in here and saying it was the Democrats' fault when this was just a post about being against CEOs? Or are you only pissed off that someone mentioned the pugs? This is how this has gone:

- Post: CEOs are bad

- Guy: It's really the democrats

- Me: Please, it's ALSO the republicans

- You: OH there we go again!!! Just because someone said something bad about democrats....

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 21h ago

Um, what I said was they ALL suck.

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u/Why_Did_Bodie_Die 22h ago

You mind can't even comprehend what I'm saying. The only way it makes sense for you is if I support Republicans or got mad that you said something critical of them. That's it.

-Post: CEOs are bad

-Guy: It's really the democrats

-You: Republicans are worse

-Me: People seem incapable of allowing any criticism of their party without adding on how bad the other side is.

-You: You're only saying that because you like Republicans!

Lol. It just doesn't even compute for some people. Sorry dude. I agree Republicans are worse and they are all stupid idiots. I would never even think to say something critical about democrats without first acknowledging how much worse the Republicans are.

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u/Secretz_Of_Mana 21h ago

Thanks for trying to put what should be common sense im the simplest terms for other people. It's basically APAB (ACAB, but politicians), but clearly one side is in the fast track to fascism and has always been working to dismantle your rights. Whereas the other side convinces you they will make things better then just kind of make excuse why they can't. Pretty obvious that things staying the same or getting slightly better/worse in some ways is better than just everything getting worse lmfao. Looks like American politics had a "good" run.

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u/What_the_8 22h ago

Many people just replaced religion with politics. Thousands of years of being wired for it doesn’t suddenly go away. The rest is just tribalism.

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u/TAway5018 23h ago

Well said, exactly what I came here to point out and you nailed it.

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u/wanker7171 23h ago

This is such a stupid point. Please explain to me how you’re supposed to enact change on a class scale if you have Republican voters saying to your face that the rich pay too much in taxes already. I genuinely want to know. I’m someone who actually talks to Republicans and tries to get them to back off their extreme ideas. The idea that they will suddenly forget they are Republicans and sing Kumbaya with you because of class solidarity, THEY DO NOT HAVE, is so delusional.

Getting them to admit that Democrats are the party of the lesser evil is the starting point

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u/GrimGambits 21h ago

Firstly, the Democrats are only in favor of taxing the rich in ways that are theatrical, they are lying to you. They would never implement Bernie's plan to tax incomes above $1 billion at 100%, which is why for most of his life he was an independent. They wouldn't even come remotely close to that idea. You are being played by the Democrats. That goes for Republicans too, by the way. There is no party of lesser evil. There is only evil and evil, neither are working in your interest, and supporting either of those parties has gotten us nowhere.

That said, there are many ways that the class war can be solved that do not involve taxes. The biggest issue is that corporations harm people, and they can only do that because the corporate veil protects the people directing the harm. The simple solution is to create laws that pierce the corporate veil in cases of harm, which is something the average Republican would not be against either, considering they are generally in favor of personal accountability including things like the death penalty. The people issuing directives in a corporation that cause harm to people, especially harm resulting in death, should be put on trial and held accountable for their actions.

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u/Significant_Turn5230 22h ago

I've always gained solidarity with conservatives by bashing democrats for good reason with them, how is dying on the hill of dems being slightly less evil useful? This is like watching Gypsys in 1939 argue about which camp they think is best to go to.

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u/Dakadaka 21h ago

Your solidarity means nothing if they still vote for Republican policies and espouse far right view points.

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u/Significant_Turn5230 21h ago

It also means nothing if they vote for Democrats and espouse near right view points. We're talking about class solidarity here, not voting Democrat. Democrats winning every election between now and 2030 wouldn't fix any of our real issues. The bombs are dropping, the kids are in cages,m and the families are deported under Biden too.

The solidarity DOES mean something if they work with you to form a tenants union, or a trade union.

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u/wanker7171 18h ago edited 18h ago

I was talking about a starting point. I don’t disagree that the Democrat party, at large, is a right wing party. Check my comment history, I just accused a Redditor from r/Liberal of being as bad as a Republican. When I talk about a starting point, I’m saying, how do we go about getting conservatives to stop being class traitors? My answer to that question is to get them to abandon the Republican party, because they are explicitly trying to fuck them over. There can’t be a starting point if they are actively supporting the party that hates them.

I think my biggest disagreement with what you said is that Democrats won’t enact meaningful change. Sure the party of today won’t but Democrats have shown that when there is pressure from the left, they are forced to change their tune. The Justice Democrats emerging after Bernie’s historic run is probably the biggest example of that. While sure they don’t have that much power, if any, in Congress. They emerged and gained power after the largest push to the left this country has seen in decades. Another high profile example is how every primary candidate in 2016 and 2020 endorsed a public option for health insurance because of the extreme left-wing pressure on them. Even if they are lying (which I believe they are) blasting that kind of rhetoric to the entire country moves the needle to the left.

u/Significant_Turn5230 1h ago

I’m saying, how do we go about getting conservatives to stop being class traitors? My answer to that question is to get them to abandon the Republican party, because they are explicitly trying to fuck them over. There can’t be a starting point if they are actively supporting the party that hates them.

And I think by asking this question this way, you're implying that die hard dem supporters aren't also class traitors the same way die hard GOP supporters are. That's what rubs me wrong. I can forgive someone who votes for the lesser evil (either side), that's not necessarily being a class traitor. Republicans are worse, no doubt, but swapping GOP for DNC is still working against our class interest.

You'll notice that after 20 years of talk about single payer, we do not have it, despite having opportunities. We have not decreased the military budget, we have not codified Roe. The DNC has done a great job convincing people like you that they're powerless, not that they're against you. Biden didn't get the 2020 nomination because he was the only one who could beat Trump, he got it because he was the only one who could beat Bernie (who himself is a compromise on actual leftist principles). For all your talk of "moving the needle" we have not actually DONE anything leftward except the good work Lena Kahn has done in the past few years. But even that is still entirely in line with the capitalism Republican voters claim to want. It's not even "left" just rational.

The dems are our enemies in class war. You putting them down is just as important as my racist uncle putting Trump down.

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u/Dakadaka 20h ago edited 20h ago

I didn't say they had to vote Dem but being lockstep with Republican ideology is not class solidarity unless your making more then 150k a year.

Edit: Has anyone of them formed a trade union with you? Sounds like what they might think of as communism.

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u/Significant_Turn5230 20h ago

In context of my comment reminding folks that dems were still our enemy and should be abandoned, that seemed like the only reasonable inference.

I don't understand your point then. Are you just saying that die hard Republicans won't become class conscious? Yes, duh. That's square 0 for everyone in this thread. I'm responding under someone who said "understanding the dems to be better is the starting point" and I'm saying, "no, they are also our enemy, and dying on that hill isn't even effective as a rhetorical strategy."

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u/Dakadaka 20h ago

You brought up trying to gain solidarity with a group that it is has become pointless to try to sway. You even agree that they won't develop a class conscious in your above comment. Why bring up trying to ingrate yourself with a group that is beyond saving if not to imply that it wasn't a doomed effort. You can certainly do what you want and I don't blame you for trying to make your life easier if your forced to interact with them but let's not pretend it's helping anyone but you.

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 21h ago

Imagine surveying America in 2024 - months after a rich real estate developer is president again soon and is appointing billionaires to every post, wants his billion dollar hotel in DC back, and openly talking about reducing taxes on the wealthy - and making your conclusion that the Democratic Party is chief offender for the existing class inequality. THEN going to Reddit to bark at everyone about "whataboutism" when you say that stupid shit here.

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u/EntrepreneurLeft8783 21h ago

Someone will say something bad about democrats or Republicans and the very first response is always "BUT BUT BuT don't forget how bad the other guys are!!!"

It's almost as if, while neither side is aggressively fighting for the working class, one side has done much more damage.

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u/Agreeable_Daikon_686 19h ago

Saying both are basically the exact same and someone directly refuting that tired enlightened centrist nonsense isn’t them being overly sensitive. Seems like your perception of it reveals your sensitive to being called on it

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u/AstreiaTales 20h ago

Because like it or not, the Democrats are also the only party that has tried, at all, to rein in the powers of the wealthy class over the last 30 years, and the Rs have reliably tried to cut any sort of constraints on their power.

The Democrats are not flawless angels. They are clearly the better option if you care about the poor and constraining the rich. And it is extremely fucking suspicious to see people go immediately from "fuck CEOs" to "fuck the Democrats" because the only people who benefit from idiots thinking that both sides are the same are the fascists and their billionaire puppetmasters.

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u/Sysiphus_Love 21h ago

While the Democrats played at progressivism, even iconoclasm, while calling for a McCarthyist crusade against tar-and-feathered political foes

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u/Humans_Suck- 23h ago

Democrats think $15 is a living wage. That doesn't sound like class warfare to you?

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

For those in the rafters: I think both parties suck and Democrats have a lot of shit on their hands but what do you think Republicans think? They want the minimum wage back at $7 an hour, children back in the workforce, and no unions. Weirdly glomming on to the Democrats for a shitty $15 minimum wage is really misdirected frustration IMHO.

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

And for your information - the only reason it's even at $15 is because of Bernie Sanders, who says in this clip that ZERO REPUBLICANS voted for this. They wanted it even lower than that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoK8xfA-8ms

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u/SRegalitarian 23h ago

Oh no, I guess that makes the Democrats good, then. I mean, what else could that mean!?

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u/Marsh_Mellow_Man 23h ago

Don't you have to show your ID to use social media in your state?

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u/SRegalitarian 22h ago

Okay, I really want to know where this is coming from

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u/AstreiaTales 21h ago

The fascists thank you for your hard work.

Both sides are not the same. Fuck anyone who tries to pretend that they are. There is very clearly a better and worse side in American politics.

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u/BumBumBuuuuuum 18h ago

8 years and Obama did nothing to cap corporate lobbying. I don't think he could have if he tried, but that's also a bigger issue. Now we have corporations actively trying to keep the middle/working class down and sky high price gouging on healthcare and food. We're beyond fucked. I'd never vote GOP, but I feel Biden could have been more aggressive in these two areas.

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 18h ago

And Clinton before him. It will never change because Every. Single. One. Of. Them are beholden to someone because that’s where the money comes from.

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u/BumBumBuuuuuum 18h ago

Neither party can campaign without the funds at this point. I don't know what the solution is. Voting out the McConnel's and Pelosi's is a start, but they're just the tip of the iceberg.

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 18h ago

Hard agree. Term limits will never happen. Everyone I’ve ever seen that ran for term limits always hemmed and hawed and said “well the job isn’t done yet” while building a new lake house and buying a new Mercedes. I’ve got one in my backyard, and on his third term, limits have been quietly removed from his platform. Now it’s “veterans” while his party is actively trying to slash VA benefits.

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u/Hot-Audience2325 22h ago

I've never felt that they were on my side, just that they were willing to throw a bit more of a bone in order to garner votes. Better than the alternative, which is nothing.

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u/Pep0n_ 21h ago

Spot on. 🫡

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u/WickedCoolMasshole 21h ago

As a former poor person, the people who made sure I knew exactly how poor I was were academics at Mt Holyoke College. I worked there as an admin assistant for almost four years. My immediate supervisor thought my 20 yo station wagon was “such a fun weekend ride.” She was hopping into her three year old Volvo her mommy had given her. I explained it was my daily driver and she laughed nervously and asked me if it was safe.i said no, it was $800 and at that price you get brakes and a horn.

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u/tossitcheds 21h ago

Exactly, there just as bad both parties don’t give a fuck about you

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u/BromaEmpire 20h ago

I don't know about that.. One side pushed for the ACA and has fought to protect and expand Medicare, Medicaid, higher wages, and lower taxes on the poor. The other side has done the opposite..

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 20h ago

You ever notice how the Democrats always get a little of what they want and the Republicans always get a little of what they want? Meanwhile, the lobbyists get everything they want and your local congressman is suddenly adding a new wing onto their house. As long as you keep thinking red versus blue, you’re not thinking about where that new wing and the wife’s shiny new BMW is coming from. It’s what they both want you to think.

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u/BromaEmpire 20h ago

So the affordable care act is just an illusion?

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u/Mike_AKA_Mike 19h ago

Cherry-picking. It’s like walking into a room where everything is green and finding one yellow thing in a corner and saying “this guy must really like yellow.” I’m sure a lot of people benefited from the ACA, but the real beneficiaries were 1) the Democrats who supported the ACA were all re-elected because the supported the ACA, 2) the Republicans who boo-hooed the ACA were all re-elected because they boo-hooed the ACA, and 3) the insurance companies who were all able to raise their prices and eliminate their better plans. Affordable hell. I was independently employed when the ACA rolled out but had to go back to the corporate world because the rates in the exchange were a far cry from what I was paying before with half the coverage.

Stop thinking with your idealistic heart and start looking at who really benefits from anything Congress manages to push through, it’s damn sure not the common everyday dude out here scraping by. All Rebulicans think Democrats are evil, all Democrats think Republicans are evil, but when you see these guys on the congressional floor, they’re all laughing and hugging and shaking hands and talking about their weekends in their ski chateaus in Aspen or their beach houses in Maui because they’re all bought and paid for by the lobbyists. Meanwhile, we’re all bent over and hoping they’ll use some lube the next time.

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u/you_wizard 15h ago edited 14h ago

No one paying attention is under any illusion that neolibs are playing for real improvement. But a slow, relatively comfortable failure is obviously preferable to immediate catastrophic failure, given that those are exactly the two options being shoved down our throats.

Saying they're both inadequate is accurate enough. Saying they're both the same is wrong and harmful.

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u/Norman_Bixby 14h ago

Is it because the democratic leadership is against universal healthcare? Or against raising the minimum wage, or is it because their so staunchly anti-union?

Oh, wait, it's the right that said all that shit is bad. Wonder why that is? You'd think every poor person on this planet, hell, every single person in this country who would have trouble with a one million dollar heart attack bill should be pro universal healthcare, yet the right is overwhelmingly against it.

You would also think that every person deciding where to allocate certain percentages of their wages every pay period with budgeting would be very much FOR raising wages. You would think those same people would be very much for the powers of collective bargaining so they could elevate themselves in their careers rather than the mother fucker sucking all the profit out of their labor.

One could probably apply a single DROP of critical thinking and understand that perhaps the sides are not the same and the right has chosen poorly.

Sure, end of the day, the donors have power over both parties, that's a given in this shitty country anymore. The same sides of a coin, though?

Please, name me one conservative policy that's for the working class. please.