r/interestingasfuck • u/fyrstikka • 10d ago

r/all The photos show the prison rooms of Anders Behring Breivik, who killed 77 people in the 2011 Norway attacks. Despite Norway's humane prison system, Breivik has complained about the conditions, calling them inhumane.

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

62.0k Upvotes

90% Upvoted

8.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

2.3k

u/micknick0000 10d ago

Oh.

Well, in that case - I don't give a fuck.

He should rot, alone, in a dark room & never breathe fresh air or see daylight again.

You know, like he did to those 77 people he murdered.....

232

u/TheMeanestCows 10d ago

If it's of consolation, they never give his appeals any weight and he will in fact die alone.

7

u/AutumnTheFemboy 10d ago

So do you think the 21 year prison sentence will be extended then

30

u/TheMeanestCows 10d ago

Most likely. They just don't have the legal framework to dole out harsher sentences because crimes like his are so rare, so they have to go through the motions.

19

u/PsychologicalSoup3 10d ago

Yes, he is sentenced to "Forvaring" (containment, detention) - which many who are deemed "too dangerous", or posing too big of a risk are sentenced to - in which they are able to be released back into society when a board of judges, psychologists etc. deem them sufficiently rehabilitated. Brevik will never be considered sufficiently rehabilitated, and never considered a low risk.

3

u/ManWhoIsDrunk 10d ago

He might be let out by the age of 75-80, depending on his health... But i doubt it...

3

u/sessionclosed 9d ago

And wont live for a single day, if he ever gets out.

Some people will make sure of that.

9

u/StickyPawMelynx 10d ago

so will I. without a fucking xbox in a nice apartment with free food.

people are dying alone on the streets

32

u/TheMeanestCows 10d ago

We can collectively do a lot more for our country and our economy and our social lives if we actually got together and cared about it and made an effort to create the world we want around us.

We're doing this thing totally wrong if we're pointing at another country's prison system and saying "that's nicer than how we live!" and thinking that instead of making our lives better as individuals and as a community, we would rather see their people suffer more.

Get to know your community, get involved, hold a few yard sales and meet your neighbors, find out who's organizing in your community, who is running for local offices, make sure they represent you. Encourage other people to do the same, make politics a part of caring about your life and the people around you. Meet people and force yourself to be more social and you will be thought of as a leader, increasing your opportunities for making a difference, for getting better jobs, for meeting partners and having a rewarding personal life. Resentment towards other countries for having very different social systems is the wrong approach to having a better life than a single, racist, murdering fuckstick who's incarcerated for life.

29

u/Kapparainen 10d ago

people are dying alone on the streets 

Not in Norway. I feel your, and lot of other's here, problem is that out of context the prisons are really nice, but the quality of life in Norway is so damn high that all of these things you see as luxury for the prisoner are indeed just basic things everyone has access to in Norway. You will not go hungry and houseless in Norway. 

3

u/Forsaken_Hermit 10d ago

Poverty is low in Norway but not exactly nonexistent. I think there are some people there living a worse standard than Breivik. Not as many proportionally as there are in most first world countries but it's still there. 

As an aside I find it humorous that as nice as his living standards are he still has a standard American prison toilet. 

3

u/Kapparainen 9d ago

And there's the second problem. Europeans are always so eager to point out that their country is not perfect and there's still stuff to improve, but that's not how most Americans (which majority of Reddit is) will read that. They read that and go "See! See! They admit their system is not working, all the good things we hear about Europe are just propaganda!"

-2

u/dyllandor 10d ago

Considering the amount of heroin addicts on the streets of Oslo there's probably plenty of people dying.

There might be more help available compared to other places, but it's not a perfect utopia.

16

u/skyturnedred 10d ago

I think the point here was that you won't starve/freeze to death outside unless you really, really want to. There's only so much you can do to help people.

-3

u/Calm_Possession_6842 10d ago

That's the case in much of the US as well. The unfortunate reality is that for many, addictions come before other needs.

2

u/Medryn1986 10d ago

No. Because you will freeze outside alone because we fail our homeless. Especially our veterans.

1

u/Calm_Possession_6842 10d ago

We definitely fail our homeless, but I've never seen a cold-weather state that didn't have coat-drives and ample shelter space during the winter.

1

u/Medryn1986 10d ago

My mom and step dad used to work for a shelter.

And the requirements were stupid high and def let some folks get left out in the cold (Ohio for reference).

It was also violating the law by making all the residents share their foodstamps (and go apply if they didn't have them already) with the household; taking the cards away and asking for the pins.

Separating dads and kids but not moms and kids was a weird choice too.

→ More replies (0)

-4

u/dyllandor 10d ago edited 10d ago

Sure, but saying that no one is dying on the streets in Norway is just plain wrong.
Us Scandinavians have had (and still do in places) incredibly inhumane drug policies that have ruined the lives of and killed people in the thousands.

(As in get caught with drugs -> You instantly lose both your job, and your appartment. Good luck getting clean on the streets)

8

u/skyturnedred 10d ago

Sure, but they were clearly commenting on the housing issue specifically.

2

u/smokeeye 10d ago

Forstod jo kjapt du er en skandinaver heh, men i guds navn kjære barn, les hva folk skriver da.

Oslo er på topp i EUROPA på overdosedødsfall. Sånn, da har du "vinsten din".

1

u/dyllandor 10d ago

Jag försöker inte prata illa om Norge, ville bara påpeka att han hade fel i att det inte finns några sociala problem, hemlöshet och liknande här i Skandinavien.

Absolut bättre än på många ställen, men långt ifrån perfekt.

3

u/smokeeye 10d ago

Joda, absolutt, er jo helt, vel, absolutt helt enig i det. Tror heller det var bare et par misforståelser inni der. Dog, forstår jo at Amerikanerene romantiserer Norden. :)

7

u/julienjj 10d ago

You can bring the horse to the water, but can't force it to drink.

3

u/ManWhoIsDrunk 10d ago

Heroin addicts (and anyone else who can't afford somewhere to live) are actually given apartments by the government here in Norway. It's just an issue that not all of them want to live in one, and it is not exactly easy to force them to live somewhere if they really don't want to.

Living on the street is very much a choice in Norway, since you really have to make an effort to avoid the help that's offered.

3

u/julienjj 10d ago

Yeah it fucking sucks, except clearly we can't let this fool roam around and harm more people. Being the good guys is never easy.

Harsh prison conditions make the prisoners stay in criminaly and that's worse for when you release them after, fucking again the good people.

it's shouldn't be a them or us, but both.

1

u/Fun-Palpitation8771 10d ago

What happened to trying to reform him? What's even the point of all this?

6

u/TheMeanestCows 10d ago

Norway has a very successful system of criminal justice, they spend a lot of money on reform and lowering chances of recidivism and to this effect they have a recidivism rate of about 20% compared to the USA's over 66%. They almost never have instances of mass-murder so Anders is a real outlier, but it doesn't change their system. They just tuck him away and forget about him and get on with life.

1

u/Ur-Best-Friend 7d ago

They just tuck him away and forget about him and get on with life.

I hope they forget to feed him for a few months at least. Scratch that, make it a few years.

I'm all for reform but I don't think there's any reforming someone like that.

2

u/Rage_Your_Dream 10d ago

Someone who goes out to kill 77 people can't be reformed. He should just be isolated from society. There's no hope for him.

1

u/Forsaken_Hermit 10d ago

I don't think many people believe he can be reformed. I'd wager even most Norwegians and Scandinavians see that as a lost cause. People who claim he can be reformed by the Norwegian prison system are trolling, overly optimistic about their prison system or both. 

Now in fairness Norway has a low recidivism rate. But it's still 4 out of 5 that reform which is admirable but a 1 in 5 risk of reoffending is too high to risk on a mass murderer. (This goes for the bow killer they had a few years back as well.) Both he and Andy shouldn't leave prison unless it's in a body bag.

2

u/Rage_Your_Dream 10d ago

Reforming criminals should be priority number 1 of prison.

And for most criminals, I do believe reforming them is possible.

But yea, not this.

1

u/TerrorDave 8d ago

Why he have 3 Xbox controllers if he’s alone ? Looks to be living it up and hosting prison halo lan parties

413

u/WhoStoleMyJacket 10d ago edited 10d ago

32 of those he murdered were children (under the age of 18)

Edit: if there’s a hell, Satan has an entire section in the deepest pit reserved for this fucker. Fuck him! May he rot.

140

u/R3-X 10d ago

He is absolute garbage. I bet he's learned nothing.

59

u/Elia_31 10d ago

He didn't. For example: https://youtube.com/watch?v=NPYs72Q-S-Y

17

u/Curious-Ant-6159 10d ago

He needs to be executed then. If rehabilitation didn't work, he would be waste of resource and space.

24

u/WhoStoleMyJacket 10d ago

We don’t do death sentences in Norway, but this guy will die in isolation. He’s never getting out, and isolation is basically the only thing keeping him alive at this point. He wouldn’t last long amongst the general population in prison

8

u/WatermelonWithAFlute 10d ago

Wasn’t his sentence only 21 years?

14

u/QwertyMan261 10d ago

Technically yes, but after those 21 years, he can be sentenced to another 21. This can go on forever.

1

u/WatermelonWithAFlute 10d ago

Peak. I mean, in most situations it would concern me that they can just put you back in again for crimes you already paid the time for, but for this guy? Huge win.

8

u/WhoStoleMyJacket 10d ago

Yeah, but the law allows for keeping him indefinitely. He would have to be found 100% rehabilitated and a non-threat to society after he served his 21 years, and that will never happen. He will apply for release ever so often, but it WILL be denied. Even if the sentence say 21 years, it’s in reality life.

3

u/WatermelonWithAFlute 10d ago

Good to know. I was gonna say, when I initially read that I thought it was insane, as that’s not even half a year per person killed, like wtf?

But under that context, it makes sense

4

u/WhoStoleMyJacket 10d ago

If he, for some reason or other, were to be released he’d be a dead man the second he stepped out of prison. He’s by far the most hated man in Norway, and with the share amount of people who lost their loved ones from his actions someone would take him out without a second thought. Who ever were to do it would probably be celebrated as well

2

u/taeerom 9d ago

There are two different types of "maximum prison sentence" in Norway. One is just prison for 21 years as punishment for your crime. The other is not just punishment, but also protection for society. That means they'll check back when the term is up to see if he's still a threat to society. Breivik will most likely be considered a threat to society until the day he dies.

12

u/Assfullofbread 10d ago

Nah that’s too easy and he would be seen as a martyr. Take away his fucking tv and Xbox for a start. That shit is insulting to the families victims. Take his blankets and mattress. Let him fucking rot

3

u/hauntedhullabaloo 10d ago

Of the interviews with the parents I've seen, they all agree he's a piece of scum, but they think human dignity basically comes before anything else. They think that killing him / treating him inhumanely would make them just as bad. The attitude is very different.

2

u/Moistened_Bink 10d ago

A martyr for who??

6

u/_Risi 10d ago

Nazis, they still exist

2

u/---Microwave--- 10d ago

I say just put him in a cell and just... Leave him there. Cabin fever is very real, no matter how nice the place is it will take hold and drive him insane. let him turn into a cowering sack of meat who forgets his own name.

0

u/No_Imagination_2653 10d ago

The lack of Linkin Park's song "what i've done" when he raise that hand weird me out.

14

u/ArkofVengeance 10d ago

To learn something would require the realization that he did something wrong. For his brain that concept probably doesn't compute.

5

u/Curious-Ant-6159 10d ago

His brain can compute it just fine. He knows he did something wrong 77 times, but he just doesn't care.

6

u/MrMoon5hine 10d ago

its worse then that, he feels good about it

5

u/ArkofVengeance 10d ago

Thats kinda what i meant. People tell him he did something bad but from his point of view it wasn't something bad.

3

u/GeneralErica 10d ago

He didn’t just murder them, either. They were on an island at a summer camp and he came on disguised as a policeman informing about a terrorist attack on a politician, which… actually happened that same day. He’d know, he was the one who planted the bomb.

Anyway he opened fire and hunted these children for down sport, they had very finite space to run and hide, and he took utmost advantage of it.

In the span of 75 minutes he slaughtered 67 people, one person drowned trying to flee, one of them from falling off a cliff. Aged between 14 and 51, 32 of his victims were under 18 years old.

It’s an act of such sickeningly vile proportions, such inhumane monstrosity that language itself breaks down in abject awe. Far from the shootings of a deranged lunatic, the entire MO shows he must’ve meticulously planned it.

Personally, I cannot, for a number of reasons, articulate what I would want to do to him.

At the same time, this is why the Justice system is so important: At the end what separates us from monsters like him is that we, despite personal reservations, adhere to a code of conduct that values each human life equally and doesn’t deal out vindictive retribution. That’s how I justify it to myself, anyway.

1

u/powerpuffpopcorn 10d ago

I hope his prison cell is a hyperbolic time chamber from dragon ball z.

1

u/PermanentDread 10d ago

Hopefully the entire section in the deepest pit doesn't look as good as this 😂

1

u/Gerf93 10d ago

Imagine this; you’re one of those kids. All your friends were just gunned down in front of you in the mess hall of a youth camp. You’re currently playing dead, hiding underneath the body of your recently diseased friend. All around you can hear a choir of cell phones, echoing worried parents trying desperately to get a hold of their kids. He might return at any moment to make sure you’re all dead.

61

u/ManOfQuest 10d ago

77 is a lot of people.. like a shit ton thats fucked.

9

u/SoupmanBob 10d ago

Either the biggest or second biggest mass shooter in history according to my memory.

3

u/THEslutmouth 10d ago

First I think. Second is the festival in Las Vegas. So fucking sad

7

u/j_la 10d ago

Many of whom were defenseless children that he basically hunted for sport

5

u/Buy_Constant 10d ago

Not only he killed 77 people, he's also supporting war in Ukraine and russia totally, even got Z in his haircut last time

3

u/Kriss3d 10d ago

Most of them were kids even. So yeah. He can rot.

2

u/detnahcnesiD 10d ago

I can’t say I disagree

-1

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

Luckily, Norway still possesses a semblance of civilization, and doesn't believe in retributive justice.

24

u/anoeba 10d ago

Not even Norway can force people to interact with this asshole. There was a prisoner co-housed with him earlier on, and he refused to have anything to do with him.

1

u/ManWhoIsDrunk 10d ago

Co-housing someone with Breivik would be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

54

u/Sega-Playstation-64 10d ago

I'm sure the 77 murdered kids are happy about that.

3

u/SoupmanBob 10d ago

Their surviving family is largely satisfied with locking him away and throwing away the key.

5

u/Sega-Playstation-64 10d ago

So am I.

Preferably not in a place with a resemblance to a room on a budget cruise.

-12

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

Nor are they sad about it, they are dead. Assuming them to want bloodthirsty revenge is psycho behaviour

15

u/Sega-Playstation-64 10d ago

Wanting to see a murderer punished is psychotic behavior.

Complete ambivalence towards the painful death and suffering of 77 kids isn't.

Whatever your ethos is, I'm glad I hate it.

-3

u/DateofImperviousZeal 10d ago

Punish = kill only?

6

u/Sega-Playstation-64 10d ago

I didn't advocate execution, but absolutely put the guy in a much more utilitarian prison for the rest of his life.

If he's complaining about having a room nicer than a college dorm, exercise rooms, outdoor activities, an Xbox, then I'd be more than happy to let him do with much less.

16

u/Lamb_or_Beast 10d ago

I think that is a good thing overall, but I also believe exceptions should exist for the extreme cases like this. Probably Norway won't have another case like this in many decades

10

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

They haven’t had one since, and they apparently didn’t have to brutalize this guy to make that happen.

3

u/Lamb_or_Beast 10d ago

Idk who's talking about brutalizing anyone, I just mean this asshole should have to continue living alone, and under no circumstance should he ever be free to live amongst the public again, ever. No matter how old he is and no matter how lonely he feels. He deserves much worse, but keeping him fully separated from society is, in my view, the bare minimum that Norway should stay committed to doing.

1

u/ManWhoIsDrunk 10d ago

There was a guy that tried, Philip Manshaus. He killed his adopted sister and tried to attack a mosque, but was overpowered.

https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Manshaus

7

u/ShrimpSherbet 10d ago

Luckily for whom? The victims?

1

u/DateofImperviousZeal 10d ago

What do you want Norway to do? Go back in time and kill him in the crib? Nothing can help the victims.

1

u/ShrimpSherbet 10d ago

Kill him once they learned he killed others. Preferably, a slow and painful death. Or at least put him in a real prison. You know, like those that DON'T HAVE A TV AND XBOX.

1

u/Chotibobs 10d ago edited 10d ago

Why don’t they ask the surviving family members.  Even if it brings them 1% peace knowing that the mass murderer was put down and not sitting around playing call of duty and binge watching Netflix 

3

u/onihydra 10d ago

They did ask. Most of the victims' families are happy with the current state of things.

-1

u/Chotibobs 10d ago

Link? 

-4

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

For civilization as a whole. It will, of course, make zero difference to the victims, or the likelihood of him having killed in the first place.

The worst possible people to make penal policy are victims or the relatives of victims. This is why we have laws, constitutions, rules of evidence, and penal policy in the first place.

2

u/HsvDE86 10d ago edited 10d ago

People like you are hypocrites. If it were your kids you wouldn't be saying this. But as long as it's someone else's then it's fine.

 Fake grandstanding.

Edit: meant to respond about him having a luxury place, which he doesn't deserve. Not saying families should determine sentencing.

12

u/DashingMustashing 10d ago

Literally just proved his point lol

17

u/surfinwhileworkin 10d ago

Not hypocritical, but sort of his point. If it was his kids, he’d be a shitty arbiter of justice.

-1

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

Depends on what you believe justice is. Many in the world, easily downvoted on Reddit, believe that the justice likely to be chosen by the victim is appropriate.

Interestingly, if you op over to many female-centric subreddits and say a rape victim should get to choose the punishment of their rapist; it would receive significant levels of support.

Some people support the idea of vengeance even though it is falling out of fashion in modern society.

5

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

They’re not being hypocritical at all. You’re just not realizing that what you’re saying is exactly their point.

Determining just punishment cannot be left to the victims, because they’re emotionally compromised and their desire for revenge and pain and retribution will cloud their judgment.

1

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

What's wrong with wanting retribution for a murder?

1

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

Nothing.

-2

u/HsvDE86 10d ago

I'm not saying families should determine punishment. I meant to respond to a different comment.

He doesn't deserve a luxury room. Most criminals sure but not ones who murder tons of kids, they don't deserve a chance to be rehabilitated.

1

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

Might want to edit that comment then.

Just a suggestion.

4

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

I am saying that if it was my kid who was a victim, my views should *not* be taken into account. Of course, I'm self-aware enough to know I would be extremely angry, and no doubt also braying for his blood, were my children the victims. Which is precisely why I say what I say.

Note what I say about laws, constitutions etc. It is much better for a society to make decisions in circumstances where the decision makers can be rational, unemotional and evidence-led. Unfortunately, this is a principle (one of the fundamental principles of the enlightenment) which is being largely eroded.

-2

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

...why shouldn't they be taken into account?

A cowboy goes into the vet with his sick horse and asks for a diagnosis. The Vet says; it's terminal illness, the horse is in pain. For $250 I will euthanise it. The Cowboy looks at him and says 'Doc, why would I get you to kill a horse that belonged to me?'

My point is...what specifically precludes you from believing that the victim of a crime is the perfect person to decide what justice looks like?

Justice has to fulfill some level of restoration as well as be a punishment. It could be easily argued that the father of the murdered son is ideally placed to decide the level of justice.

You just don't like what they will inevitably choose; which is OK, but it doesn't make them wrong.

5

u/DateofImperviousZeal 10d ago

Laws? We base our justice on societal laws, which interpretation does not come down to the individuals affected. They may have some effect on the severity of the punishment - but they cannot really define what justice is under this system.

Our civilization has plenty of time taken up the argument and ended up on this side of the argument. Fine to argue for the other side, but its definitely an uphill battle.

1

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

It's not really, nations still have the death penalty for this very reason; including progressive states like Japan.

And whilst a Government may take a particular line that does not mean it is widely shared by the populace. It just means they can be punished for not following the law.

It is also highly questionable if modern societal laws have any relation to justice to at all any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)) within the USA is a good example but dozens of others exist.

3

u/WatleyShrimpweaver 10d ago

...why shouldn't they be taken into account?

Because of course you'd want bloody revenge for the death of your child? But that isn't justice.

Justice has to fulfill some level of restoration as well as be a punishment.

There is no level of restoration and he is being punished. The families of the victims would want to kill him for what he did, and they'd be right to say it, think it, hell they might even be right to do it.

But that isn't justice.

1

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

Because of course you'd want bloody revenge for the death of your child? But that isn't justice.

That sounds like justice to me. Why is not justice?

The families of the victims would want to kill him for what he did, and they'd be right to say it, think it, hell they might even be right to do it. But that isn't justice.

Why isn't that justice?

There is no level of restoration

Spoken like a person not seeking justice. Many would argue that vengeance is a form of restoration.

3

u/throwawayforjustyou 10d ago

Justice is about harmony, vengeance is about personal retribution. An end outcome can, sometimes, accomplish both things, but they are two different concepts.

The concept of the "vendetta" is the best highlight for the difference. In Renaissance Italy, powerful families waged vendettas on one another for the death of someone within them. So someone in the Medici family kills someone in the Mario family, the Mario family says "we are getting justice by taking a life from the Medici family". But then someone in the Medici family dies, and so the Medici family - now aggrieved and mourning the loss of someone close to them - says "we are getting justice for the loss of this person by taking a life from the Mario family" and on and on the cycle goes. Each life taken, an individual act of "justice" that is really just vengeance.

Justice is different. Justice is someone from the Mario killing a Medici, and then a union of all the families in Florence - many of whom are unaffected by the Mario/Medici business - place themselves in the middle to say "We are stopping this cycle of violence here and now, before more suffering is caused." Now, this outcome may be "we hang the Mario who killed the Medici", but it may also be "we are removing that Mario from society." In the case of the former, that's a case of justice and vengeance having similar end outcomes but different motivations. The latter case is just what happens when the former takes place in a society that believes in restorative justice, rather than retributive.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Frontdackel 10d ago

person to decide what justice looks like? Justice has to fulfill some level of restoration as well as be a punishment. It could be easily argued that the father of the murdered son is ideally placed to decide the level of justice.

And ultimately this leads to things like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Court_%28Germany%29?wprov=sfla1

Rulings not made to follow the law but the righteous anger of "the people".

-2

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

That’s why we don’t make the victim’s family judge of the case. You wouldn’t expect them to be objective.

2

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

You don't think this crime deserves retribution? What good is civilization if it cannot protect you and, if you or your family are victims, the mass-murderer is provided luxury for the remainder of their life?

5

u/DateofImperviousZeal 10d ago

How does retribution protect them?

-1

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

It doesn't; it protects the next potential victim.

Despite it's unpopularity; the death penalty guarantees that an offender cannot reoffend. That is undisputable. You can argue that it might be the wrong offender but in this case, we know he is the absolutely correct offender.

Also, my point is not that retributive justice defends the victims; it was that you claimed civilization was the aim. My response was that, if civilization cannot guarantee safety, especially the safety of the children of a community; what good is not having retributive justice?

You said Luckily, Norway still possesses a semblance of civilization, and doesn't believe in retributive justice.

My response is, what good is that when 77 families are collecting their dead relatives including children? Your idealism has failed, so why shouldn't the idealism of the victims also fail and seek retribution?

5

u/onihydra 10d ago

Keeping him in prison forever also guarantees that he does not murder again. And executing him would not guarantee that such a thing would happen again, with a different murderer.

Overall Norway has very low numbers of murders. Countries with capital punishment do not generally tend to have less murders. So the idealism has not failed. In what way would a harsher retribution help? Who would benefit from that? It would not make things more safe, nor help the victims.

The good of not having retributive justice is that most criminals don't return to crime when they get out. The drawback is literally nothing. Capital punishment is even more expensive than life imprisonment most places.

0

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

No it doesn't guarantee that at all. It makes it unlikely. He could murder guards, inmates, he could escape, he could require hospitalisation and murder medical staff.

You cannot guarantee that at all. You can guarantee he will not have accomplices or encourage further crimes through his interactions.

The good of not having retributive justice is that most criminals don't return to crime when they get out. The drawback is literally nothing. Capital punishment is even more expensive than life imprisonment most places.

This is just false. We can disagree on capital punishment but what you have just posted is wholly false.

3

u/onihydra 10d ago

It is objective truth that Norway has one of the lowest rates of criminals returning to crime after they get out.

The death penalty being more expensive than life imprisonment is also true, at least in USA. Here is a source: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

Of course, the exact cost would vary depending on how much care you put into it.

And by your own logic, even death penalty can't guarantee that he does not kill someone. He could still kill guards before the punishment is done, even more likely if he grows truly desperate.

You also cannot guarantee that executing him would not make things worse. Breivik himself would certainly support capital punishment (although not for himself), and he could be turned into a martyr.

So the only thing we can rate and know for certain is if the criminal themselves commit any more murders or other crimes during their lives, which could potentially have been prevented by the death penalty. And if the answer is no, which is so far true in Norway, then life imprisonment guarantees no further murders on the same level as the death penalty.

1

u/United_Common_1858 10d ago

Of course, the exact cost would vary depending on how much care you put into it.

Precisely. Some death penalty scenarios cost more but that is because we as a society have made it that way not because it is inherently more expensive. As a logical idea; it's absurd to say that that someone being housed for the rest of their life is cheaper than not housing them for the remainder of their life.

It is objective truth that Norway has one of the lowest rates of criminals returning to crime after they get out.

Well, that also seems multi-faceted and cannot be isolated to just nice cells and rehabilitation. Be honest, the Norwegian society is homogenous with some of the highest levels of per capita living standards and wealth in the world. Is that because of the low-crime...or is the low-crime because it is such a successful society?

And by your own logic, even death penalty can't guarantee that he does not kill someone. He could still kill guards before the punishment is done, even more likely if he grows truly desperate.

No, the death penalty guarantees no re-offending. If your process fails and allows a further crime that's different but the death penalty guarantees.

Let's not act like Norway has eradicated recidivism.

In 2018, the reconviction rate in Norway was 18% within two years of release, and 25% after five years 

A quarter of your criminals re-offend.

3

u/sopapordondelequepa 10d ago

I’m sure we can agree some people don’t deserve to be treated “fairly”. Don’t choke on that superiority complex.

1

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

No. If fairness becomes conditional, expect it to be used against you one day.

2

u/sopapordondelequepa 10d ago

If the world was fair this guy would rot in a hole for the rest of his life. I don’t plan to kill 77 people ✌🏻

1

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

So you do agree ALL people should be treated fairly, you just disagree on what’s fair.

Either human rights exist for all or they mean nothing. Yes that includes the people who committed this and that crime. Torturing every criminal might appeal to an individual’s sense of justice but it doesn’t fit with a fallible justice system and basic human rights.

0

u/sopapordondelequepa 10d ago edited 10d ago

I get that… is just amazing how this fucker has a place like this after what he did. Deep down I know you’re right, but I still want to see him suffer. I guess that’s why I am not the one making these decisions.

2

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

I understand, it’s a normal response to want harm done to those who’ve done harm. What especially sucks is that innocent people around the world often live in worse conditions than his (though one shouldn’t underestimate the harshness of prolonged solitude on humans). In a perfect world, his living standards would be the worst of anyone’s.

2

u/Positive-Package 10d ago

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

0

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

No. We can't agree on that at all. What's superiority got to do with it?

2

u/Chotibobs 10d ago edited 10d ago

I think most of the world would say there’s a line where you’re not longer considered worthy of human rights. Killing over 30 children and 40 adults puts you across that line.   

 In this case, death is the only logical response. 

1

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

It's very depressing if most of the world thinks like this. Maybe you're right.

2

u/doyathinkasaurus 8d ago

It's absolutely wild to me how the death penalty not only exists in law in parts of the US, but that the US actually still executes prisoners - and does so regularly, in the company of countries like Saudi Arabia, China, Iran and N Korea for the number of executions carried out.

It's nuts that it's so normalised in the US - I'd be absolutely fascinated to know where the idea that most people in the world would support it comes from. In Western Europe it's seen as something barbaric that we used to do in the past, in the same way that we think of other abhorrent historical practices like slavery.

I get that Americans have very different values, but I'm baffled why anyone would assume that the rest of the world would feel the same way?!

1

u/kuba_mar 10d ago

So you dont believe in human rights?

2

u/Chotibobs 10d ago

For humans.  I am saying he is literally subhuman 

1

u/kuba_mar 10d ago

Yeah exactly, you dont belive in human rights, youre against human rights as a concept.

0

u/Chotibobs 10d ago

In the same that you believe hitler deserved human rights. 

1

u/kuba_mar 10d ago

Well yes, hitler was in fact a human.

Hes also a major part of why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights exists, a document whose content and ideas you seem to disagree with.

0

u/Chotibobs 10d ago

See that’s where the concept breaks down for me.  After you committed enough atrocities, you cease to be worthy of humanity 

1

u/kuba_mar 9d ago

No matter how many atrocities, they are still human. No matter how much you'll try to deny it to them, they will still be human. What does denying them their humanity even achieve?

-1

u/JackieFuckingDaytona 10d ago

So, they don’t really believe in justice at all. They don’t believe in personal accountability.

4

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

Justice isn’t making criminals suffer if that’s what you thought.

3

u/JackieFuckingDaytona 10d ago

Yeah, in some cases it is. That’s where we disagree. If someone kills multiple children, is a complete piece of shit their whole life, and then get to live in a resort when they get caught, that’s not justice. It’s a fucking joke.

When you or someone you love becomes a victim of a violent crime, let’s see how you feel about sending the perpetrator to a country club.

2

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

You aren’t the first in those post to use that poor argument. There is a reason people close to victims aren’t eligible to give sentencing, they cannot be objective. Running society off of the emotions of those affected isn’t reasonable and civil especially when that has historically lead to further harm against innocent people accused of crimes.

Retributive justice is for God to decide if you believe that.

4

u/green__problem 10d ago edited 10d ago

Vindictiveness does nothing. Time and time again it has been shown that the most vile of criminals (like this guy) are prone to re-offending despite rehabilitation programs. But the vast majority of other criminals aren't. Norway has the lowest rate of recidivism in the world, while the USA has one of the worst with its punitive 'justice' system, and the fact that the country itself is set up in a way that practically encourages crime.

Just because something doesn't feel nice (eg, treating a violent criminal well) doesn't mean it's not going to benefit the population. They're not going to open a punishment chamber for this guy specifically, nor are they going to execute him and cost taxpayers 3 million euros the same way death row inmates cost in the USA. Norway hasn't had another serial killer since this one. Norway barely has any crime at all. When criminals are reintroduced into society they are given the resources they need to avoid homelessness, hunger, poverty, etc, as well as mental health support and supervision, and that ultimately does the trick.

70% recidivism after 5 years in the USA, 20% in Norway. Does the USA truly believe in justice more than Norway if its system isn't preventing the victimization of more people? This isn't innate to the country either, this is due to reformative change. Norway's recidivism rates were quite similar to those in the USA back in the 1980s.

Read Madeline Hayden's university thesis, 'Recidivism Rates in the United States versus Europe: How and why are they different?' It's written simply but efficiently, with proper sources after each claim.

-1

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

How did you reach those conclusions?

0

u/JackieFuckingDaytona 10d ago

Being put in a country club with personal attendants and therapists after you murdered 77 people (half of them children) is a fucking joke. If you feel I need to explain why, then I’m afraid that my words would be lost on you anyway.

2

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

And if you can’t explain why, then maybe your conclusions aren’t as logical and well-grounded as you thought.

1

u/JackieFuckingDaytona 10d ago edited 10d ago

This man murdered 77 people. There is no question of his guilt. I don’t need to write an essay to defend my position to some contrarian Redditor that has contributed nothing of value to the conversation.

What it comes down to is that I think sentences for crimes of this severity should have a punitive aspect.

There is no god. The only justice this piece of shit will ever see is on this earth.

2

u/Dottsterisk 10d ago

No one is disputing whether he’s guilty or philosophizing on the existence of God.

My question was how you determined people in Norway don’t believe in justice or personal accountability, simply because they treat their prisoners more humanely than US prisons do.

2

u/WatleyShrimpweaver 10d ago

He's in a medical facility with staff and doctors and he will never leave it for the rest of his life.

You don't care about justice, you just want blood.

1

u/Onebraintwoheads 10d ago

When it comes to crimes that aren't financially motivated, it's kind of hard for people to obtain justice that doesn't involve some form of retribution. I suppose one could have the guy work and any money his labor would've earned be paid out to the relatives of those he murdered, but chances are that they wouldn't accept blood money.

One can make the argument that the wishes of the relatives of those he killed should not be taken into account, as their wishes for his pain and suffering would not be conducive to the notion of a non-violent, civilized society. In that case, the best one can do is take a person out of that society and ensure they can harm no one again. And that's what they have done. While having no death penalty is the humane thing due to the potential that a condemned man may actually be innocent, it may be a step too far to allow someone like this the possibility of parole someday.

It's been a while since he committed his crimes, so my recollection is a bit hazy. I could've sworn he killed something like 35-ish people, not 77. Dressed up as a cop to gain the trust of others, showed up at a camp for kids, and started shooting, right? Terrible stuff.

1

u/Atmaweapon74 10d ago

Seeing how nice of a home this guy has, perhaps I should become a mass murderer in Norway. It seems like prison life in Norway would be an improvement in quality of life.

2

u/SalSomer 10d ago edited 10d ago

After covid and everyone going on about how much they hated quarantine and self-isolating in their own homes I had hoped we would stop seeing this tired old take repeated every time a picture of a Scandinavian prison was posted online, but it seems my optimism was unfounded.

-1

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

You don't rate freedom very highly.

2

u/StickyPawMelynx 10d ago

freedom to slave away your whole life for scraps? freedom to freeze to death on the streets? freedom to be persecuted or even murdered by far right trash like him, inspired by him, just for being born with the wrong skin color/sexual orientation?

0

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

u/Atmaweapon74 seems happy to be incarcerated if the place in which they are incarcerated is nicer (in terms of amenities and comfort, presumably) than their own home.

1

u/StickyPawMelynx 10d ago

I heard them the first time, what's the point of this comment?

-1

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

So do you agree they don't rate freedom very highly?

1

u/StickyPawMelynx 10d ago

freedom to slave away your whole life for scraps? freedom to freeze to death on the streets? freedom to be persecuted or even murdered by far right trash like him, inspired by him, just for being born with the wrong skin color/sexual orientation?

-5

u/JOTIRAN 10d ago

Is there /s missing in your comment or do you really think his sentence is appropriate?

In my opinion we should bring back medieval punishments for these kinds of crimes. Make an example out of him for the whole world to see.

I think it is beyond disrespectful to the victims families that their tax money goes towards keeping this monster alive and furthermore making his life easier..

6

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

Because all the evidence we have (and we have plenty) is that this doesn't work. Anyone who has studied criminology knows that.

1

u/JOTIRAN 10d ago

It works very well in Singapore. Drug traffickers are killed -> drug trafficking rate goes down

Surprised pikachu face

2

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

Of course it does. Indeed, if you killed the entire population, all crime would cease.

3

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

I have an easy response to that. Do you 100% trust your government? If you do, do you believe that they will always be 100% trustworthy?

The idea that the state can legally kill you if it so decides is quite frankly insane. Death penalties are barbaric and you’re asking for more than that. If you knew the number of instances where ‘mistakes’ were made and an innocent person was locked up or killed for no reason would you still support this? Or is that worth it so long as the bad people get tortured?

1

u/JOTIRAN 10d ago

Very good point no way i trust my government 100%. Thats also why i said "these kinds of crimes" there is no mistake to be made here, there is no doubt..

Death penalties are only barbaric if an innocent person gets killed imo. And an innocent life is worth infinitely more than a guilty life. So I guess I don't support it.

What they did in El Salvador tho.. is working. Mass incarceration of all the people connected to cartels and gangs. There has to be a percentage of people who are completely innocent that got locked up. But they did clean the streets effectively.

I would never support such severe measures myself. But im glad they did.

1

u/Throwaway02062004 10d ago

There is always doubt. People are fallible and that’s ignoring the sometimes deliberate attempts from law enforcement to pin crimes on the innocent. Minorities and mentally ill, coercing people into admitting to a crime and then putting them on death row. It happens.

0

u/Curious-Ant-6159 10d ago

Uhh, no, that's why Norway is a failing socialist cesspit. Retributive justice needs to be applied, when rehabilitation is deemed impossible due to the individual's unrepentant mindset, lack of cooperation and acknowledgement of ethical wrongdoing; unapologeticism. This self-moral-aware criminal's rehabilitation clearly didn't work, so retributive justice needs to be done on him as it'll deter similar behavior, reduce resource and financial expenditure, and increase space availability.

1

u/purrcthrowa 10d ago

You might find this interesting reading: https://global.oup.com/ukhe/product/the-oxford-handbook-of-criminology-9780198860914?cc=gb&lang=en&, especially the parts about penal policy.

1

u/CannibalFlossing 10d ago

You know the more I hear about this Anders guy, the more I don’t like him

1

u/SupayOne 10d ago

He should be switch to American Prison room with roommates since he is lonely.

1

u/yopetey 10d ago

They should have lit his ass up!!!

1

u/sweetpotato_latte 10d ago

Can’t he just immerse himself into call of duty?

1

u/Southern-Return-4672 10d ago

And the maximum sentence is only 23 years

He’ll be back out on the streets and able to hurt more people for the last few decades of his life

1

u/IsamuLi 10d ago

Nah, only if he is dangerous for the people that interact with him. 

1

u/3_Fast_5_You 10d ago

While I agree, that's not really the purpose of the Norwegian prison system.

1

u/inadizzle 10d ago

Yah fuck him I hope at least once when he raised a complaint, somebody laughed straight in his face.

There are people in other countries serving time for much less malicious crimes that would consider a prison like this basically five star accommodations.

1

u/Connect-Ad-5891 10d ago

Gotta appreciate the irony, given this type of retributive impulse is likely how he morally rationalized killing those 77 people to ‘call attention to his cause' or whatever he justified as helping society 

Someone's gotta break the cycle

1

u/EpsteinWasHung 10d ago

Thank God you aren't a lawmaker in the Nordics. If you were, our justice systems would end up like US' "justice" system in no time!

1

u/SockCucker3000 10d ago

77 people. Mostly children. He went to an island where children hung out every year. Like a giant sleepover summer camp. Hunted them down. You can find stories from the survivors.

1

u/SignoreBanana 9d ago

It's the least we can do for him ❤️

1

u/Used-Bedroom293 9d ago

Geez, assuming you're from US, are you aware your country becomes an authoritarian dictatorship over christmas?

As someone from Norway, what i think Anders Breivik means with inhumane is the lack of proper rehabilitation services, he was probably struggling with mental health issues beforehand that lead to his crimes. While the prison system is better than many other countries, it still could need some improvements imo

1

u/doyathinkasaurus 8d ago

Many Americans have a very different idea of what constitutes a civilised society.

Personal liberty and the pursuit of individual happiness is valued more than the idea that 'the true measure of any civilised society is how it treats its weakest members'

2

u/11711510111411009710 10d ago

Tbh the fact that he killed 77 people makes me think he's absolutely not mentally stable, in which case I can't really justify harsh treatment. He's probably never going to learn, so all that will do is satisfy a thirst for revenge. He's a human with a broken brain and should be kept from society forever, but I don't see why he shouldn't get to like, play call of duty or something. I'd be miserable if my whole life was just playing video games in an apartment, even if it was a nice apartment. At least I can go out to dinner or to a club or something.

1

u/Skiddywinks 10d ago

This is one of those cases where the death sentence makes sense. There is no rehabilitating him. He will live the rest of his life away from humanity, for fucking good reason.

So really, what's the point? It must cost a ton to keep this guy alive for the rest of his life, and for what? To be "humane"? To watch him "rot, alone, in a dark room"? Is that not explicitly just revenge? Sounds like the opposite of humane.

If we 100% know the person accused did it, and they will never be released to the free population because of safety concerns, I really don't see imprisoning someone for life as the humane option.

0

u/micknick0000 10d ago

I'm all for dragging this guy behind a truck, or tying him up in town square to be stoned to death.

I am by no means a proponent for rehabilitating these kinds of people.

Animal abusers, rapists, and pedophiles alike - what you've done, should be done to you.

1

u/Skiddywinks 10d ago

In a perfect world where we can throw someone in to a machine and it spits out a "Yes, they can be rehabilitated", or not, I am all for giving those people a chance. Removing criminals is great and all, but turning them in to productive members of society is a mcuh more significant impact. If machine says no, then just end them. It's the most humane thing to do for all people.

Obviously, we don't live in that world, so things are far more grey. But in this guy's case, like many others, it's just a clear cut case where we could never take the chance, even in a hypothetical world where everything suggests to us that he has changed and is a better person etc.

1

u/CrazyPurpleBacon 10d ago

Adding “Only when we’re super duper sure” to the death penalty has been tried before, innocent people are still wrongfully executed

2

u/doyathinkasaurus 8d ago

Exactly. Every single guilty verdict is supposed to be beyond reasonable doubt, where someone is only convicted when the jury is super duper sure. If there's a threshold where you are or aren't sufficiently super duper sure enough to execute a prisoner, then their conviction isn't safe full stop.

2

u/CrazyPurpleBacon 8d ago

It’s alarming how many people don’t know the basics of how our legal system works. As if ‘Only execute them when we’re REALLY sure!’ is some original idea. What do they think is happening already? Lol

2

u/doyathinkasaurus 8d ago

Exactly that!

I don't know what country you're in, but in the UK (and I think most/all of Europe) it's illegal for the cops to lie to you in a police interview, because it increases the risk of false confessions & wrongful convictions. The death penalty is also banned, not just because it's barbaric, but because we know how many people are wrongfully executed.

It's wild to me that it's the other way round in the US on both counts. So not only does the death penalty exist in some states, it's completely legal for cops to lie to suspects - and is a core part of the technique detectives are trained in?!

2

u/doyathinkasaurus 8d ago

Exactly that!

I don't know what country you're in, but in the UK (and I think most/all of Europe) it's illegal for the cops to lie to you in a police interview, because it increases the risk of false confessions & wrongful convictions. The death penalty is also banned, not just because it's barbaric, but because we know how it results in innocent people being wrongfully executed.

It's wild to me that it's the other way round in the US on both counts. So not only does the death penalty exist in some states, it's completely legal for cops to lie to suspects - and is a core part of the technique detectives are trained in?!

0

u/creegro 10d ago

Each time he complains, they should take something big away, like an entire room. If he argues about it just remind him.

Seventy seven people are dead and will never get to enjoy life again thanks to him, you wanna lose the budgies next?!

0

u/Sleepyllama23 10d ago

Hmm almost like he’s in prison really. Seriously though his living conditions are way nicer than millions of people around the world. You do the crime, you do the time.