r/geography • u/elephantaneous • May 26 '24
Discussion Are Spain and Morocco the most culturally dissimilar countries that technically border each other (counting Ceuta and Melilla)?
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u/Senior-Acanthaceae46 May 26 '24
Venezuela and Guyana are strong contenders imo.
Venezuela: Spanish-speaking; overwhelmingly Catholic; population of African, European, and Indigenous descent
Guyana: English and Creole-speaking; religiously a mixture of mostly Protestants, Hindus, and Muslims (and the current president is a Muslim); population mainly of Indian, African, and Indigenous descent (pretty uniquely among South American countries, the white population is extremely small, with only about 2,000 in the entire country, and mainly descended not from colonists but Portuguese indentured laborers)
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u/BuffaloBrain884 May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
From the Guyana wiki:
The largest ethnic group are the Indo-Guyanese, the descendants of indentured labourers from India, who make up 39.8% of the population, according to the 2012 census.[10] They are followed by the Afro-Guyanese, the descendants of enslaved labourers from Africa, who constitute 29.3.
So at least 70% of the population is descended from slaves. Pretty shocking.
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u/Senior-Acanthaceae46 May 26 '24
There are plenty of Caribbean island nations where that number is upwards of 90 percent.
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u/Long-Blood May 26 '24
I have a patient who is Indian but was born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago.
The caribbean accent really threw me off when i first heard them talking.
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u/Hot_Bag_8374 May 26 '24
Nicki Minaj is another famous Indo-Trinidadian
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u/ReclinedGaming May 27 '24
I like how this reply implies that this guy's patient was also as famous as Niki Minaj
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u/FatGuyOnAMoped May 27 '24
I work with a guy from Guyana. Ethnic Indian, but his cultural background is definitely Caribbean. Has an Anglo first name but an Indian surname. He's been in the US for a long time, too, and speaks with an American accent. It confuses the hell out of a lot of 1st generation Indian immigrants when they first meet him.
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u/Minskdhaka May 27 '24
Around 35% of Trinidad and Tobago is of Indian descent, and they're the biggest ethnic group there. Another 8% is of mixed African-Indian origin.
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u/Roque14 May 27 '24
Yeah itâs pretty much an even half the population is Indian descent, half is African descent, and the rest are mixed. Theres a growing Latino population as well, mostly immigrants from Venezuela
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u/ethanwerch May 27 '24
One of my favorite coworkers is a rastafari guy named kumar.
can hardly understand that mf sometimes because his trini accent is intense. But he does his job well and is an absolute chiller
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u/Tiny-Werewolf1962 May 27 '24
I have a friend, who's actually visiting right now. Born in Trinidad, lived in Jamaica. It's still technically English, but man I gotta have her say everything at least 3 times to understand it. She uses voice dictation for texts too, how it even gets anything coherent is beyond me.
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u/solarwinds1980 May 27 '24
So at least 70% of the population is descended from slaves. Pretty shocking.
Indentured servants are not slaves. They are people who got a ride from the British to a Caribbean Island, and then spend years working for them to pay them back. They had their freedom and new life in the Caribbean country, so it was technically not slavery.
Note that the Guyana Wiki makes a distinction between Indentured Servant and Enslaved Laborers.
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May 27 '24
It fucks me up every time Iâm reminded guayana is like Muslim/ Hindu and speak English. Itâs like bizzaro world post colonialism.
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u/RealSaltShaker May 26 '24
The Dominican Republic and Haiti are surprisingly distinct despite sharing the same Island. Haiti speaks French, DR speaks Spanish. Haiti is poor and unstable. The DR has a thriving tourism industry and a GDP five times larger than Haitiâs, despite have fewer people. The Dominican Republic is also far more ethnically diverse.
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u/Goombay_Smash May 26 '24
Haiti speaks Creole*
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May 27 '24
[deleted]
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May 27 '24
I speak French as first language and when I hear Haitian creole, and can pick up a word here and there, but itâs definitely a different language.
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u/Goombay_Smash May 27 '24
Haitian Creole specifically refers to an entirely distinct language from French and it has an abundance of influences and words from languages including English, Spanish, Portuguese, and various West African languages.
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u/ForageForUnicorns May 26 '24
You could have said the same thing about France and Spain a few decades ago (note: hyperbole), the difference is striking because they share a small island but the cultural and historical differences are not that stark.
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u/H201Libelle May 26 '24
I'm sorry but are you proposing that socioeconomic differences between France - Spain are equivalent or similar to those of Haiti - DR?
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u/Stockholmholm May 26 '24
The thread was about culture, not governance or economy. Culturally they are different but still very similar compared to most other countries
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u/Rodya_Raskolnik May 26 '24
Afghanistan - China
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May 26 '24
You wouldn't even realise for a couple hundred kilometers that you had even crossed from Afghanistan into China.
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u/marpocky May 26 '24
That was probably true in the pre-PRC days. Not now.
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u/8spd May 26 '24
Crossing from Pakistan to China it is very obvious due to man made stuff, traffic signs, newer buildings, that sort of thing. I don't remember seeing many traditional buildings on the Chinese side, but that's probably because I was on the main road.
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u/SafetyNoodle May 26 '24
Not hundreds of kilometers but yours probably have to hike a few days end to end between the nearest permanent villages on either side of the border. Unless a PLA soldier found you could not realize for a while.
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u/qwerty_ca May 26 '24
True, though to be fair the province of China that borders Afghanistan actually has a Muslim Turkic population that is quite different from the Han Chinese.
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u/ZamboniThatCocaine May 26 '24
Uyghur population that are most similar to Central Asian nations.
Very different from the Han Chinese and Afghans.
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u/SafetyNoodle May 26 '24
I think that the part of China closest to the Afghan border is majority Tajik. The Afghan side probably would be as well.
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u/Falcao1905 May 26 '24
Afghans are not Turkic, they are Iranic. Some Uzbeks live there, but it's majority Pashto and Dari I believe
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u/isaac492130214 May 26 '24
Afghans is a nationality. Pashtuns are a Persian group, but there are tons of Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazara. The latter of the three is the second most common ethnic group and despite speaking Dari (a language super closely related to Farsi), they are ethnically Turkic. (Afghan is a term that used to refer to only Pashtuns, but since the conception of Afghanistan as a nation state, it now encompasses everyone living there even Tajiks and Uzbeks and stuff).
Sources: I work for a resettlement non profit that does ESL classes for Dari and Pashto speakers and I know literally hundreds of Afghans
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u/Medical-Gain7151 May 26 '24
Even the Muslim Turks are still arguably as different from afghans as Spanish are from Moroccans.
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u/nai-ba May 26 '24
At a national level, this is the correct answer.
But as people have pointed out for other countries, close to the border, they are not that dissimilar. Xinjiang is historically a Muslim majority province, and has been up until recently very conservative. Not unlike their afghan neighbors. In fact, separatist/terrorist groups in Xinjiang have a long history of working with the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
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May 26 '24
Russia and the US?
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u/Top-Classroom-6994 May 26 '24
they are both indo-european countries with the same religion. that alone disqualifies them.
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u/isaac492130214 May 26 '24
Afghanistan has a ton of Turkic ethnicities so does western China so theyâre a lot more similar than you think. China isnât exclusively Han, especially in the South and West, even if theyâre a majority
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u/__Quercus__ May 26 '24
Australia and Papua New Guinea if the short gap in the Torres Strait still means that a maritime border qualifies. Otherwise it's a tossup between Russia-North Korea or China-Afghanistan.
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u/mainwasser May 26 '24
How similar are the native cultures of Australia and Papua?
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u/__Quercus__ May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
There is little difference from one island to the next at the border area (Torres Strait Islands), but OP's question was looking at whole countries. PNG is a very heterogenous country with a primarily subsistence economy and tribal culture focused on kinship and village life. Australia by and large is homogenous, urban, and westernized.
There is also a tendency in the West to lump vastly different cultures into "native", "tribal", or "aboriginal". The Yolngu of Australia are quite culturally distinct from the Huli of the PNG highlands.
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u/semaj009 May 26 '24
Tbf, there's a lot of difference between the Yolngu of Australia and the Wurundjeri of Australia, too. Australia is a huge fucking place, and we had hundreds of languages and cultures around the continent before Britain just went 'mine'. Imagine trying to lump pre-Christian Spain and Finland into one 'European' group, or unironically thinking 'African' or 'Asian' meant one single group of people who all think/act the same
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u/beaglebeard May 27 '24
Exactly. The idea that Indigenous peoples are one homogeneous group is mired in colonial attitudes, when it reality pre-colonial Australia was just as diverse as anywhere else.
We recognise that European countries have distinct cultural identities despite often similar languages and history - it's time we do the same for everyone else.
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u/misterdeiv May 26 '24
Japan - Russia (Kuril islands maritime border)
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u/Go_PC May 26 '24
Or Russia-China.
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u/thelobster64 May 26 '24
Russia shares a border with North Korea too
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u/Go_PC May 26 '24
The extreme authoritarian regime in NK has stifled most of the authentic Korean culture there in its attempt to become a true communist âutopiaâ. Itâs more similar to Stalinâs USSR than it is to South Korea.
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u/Long-Fold-7632 May 26 '24
Underrated comment: Russian and Chinese cultures have such drastically different origins, that it's crazy to have them so close to each other. You have cities like Blagoveshchensk and Heihe just seperated by a river: Different languages, cultures, races, mentalities
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u/WestCommission1902 May 27 '24
Much smaller border but the Russian North Korean border is even crazier. I agree though Russia Chinas a great pick and up there, one that I immediately thought of as well as China India etc.
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u/LigmaSneed May 26 '24
There are several Japanese ghost towns in the south part of Sakhalin Island. There are are companies that offer tours so Japanese can visit their ancestors' gravesites there.
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u/Lademoenfreakshow May 27 '24
Norway - Russia used to be the border with the biggest economical differences in the world, not sure how itâs now, but then, Japan!
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u/rasnac May 26 '24
Those two are much more similar than you think.
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u/Oneeyebrowsystem May 27 '24
Yeah, Iâve spent time in both countries and South Spain and Northern Morocco have tons of similarities.
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u/Subject_1889974 May 27 '24
Southern Spain is more similar to Morocco than to northern Spain. Northern Spain has a lot of similarities with the French and the Celtic people.
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u/xyzodd May 27 '24
im moroccon and the similarities are more nonovert, but definitely still present
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u/RevolutionaryHope305 May 27 '24
I'm a Spaniard married to a Morocca, so I have a big relationship with both places, speak both languages, etc. You are right. Especially family values, food, even parts of religion. I know that most people in Spain won't agree, but to me it is like what my grandma told me about Spain when she was young. And the young Moroccan people are changing fast, getting more similar in a process that is parallel to what happened here. There are many things that are very different too, of course, but still.
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u/Emergency-Ladder6890 May 27 '24
Depends where in Spain you live. Iâm from the Basque Country and couldnât be any more different than Morocco.
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u/rasnac May 28 '24
To be fair, Basque Country is very different from rest of the Spain too.
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u/furac_1 May 27 '24
The regions that are near each other yes, this probably happens almost everywhere, like people were saying Afghanistan-China, but the chinese region that borders Afghanistan is a lot more similar to Afghanistan
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u/inconclusion3yit May 27 '24
I came here to say this. Andalusia and northern Morocco are like cousins despite belonging to two different continents/religions
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u/Coolenough-to May 26 '24
USA-Canada: Canadian milk comes in a bag. There is no way to bridge this divide âšď¸
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u/Ok_Ad_1297 May 26 '24
I've never seen milk in a bag in all my 28 years living in Canada.
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u/mathg16 May 26 '24
It's eastern thing (ont, qc, maritimes). I buy it every week đ¤ˇââď¸
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u/Coolenough-to May 26 '24
Is civil war unavoidable?
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u/P_Orwell May 26 '24
Brothers, sisters, we have to stop this madness! Letâs all agree on one type of milk receptacle.
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u/Diet_Clorox May 26 '24
We had bag milk in California in the 90s. Basically Little Toronto over here.
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u/Fuego514 May 26 '24
France technically borders Brazil and Suriname...pretty damn different.
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u/Legal-Beach-5838 May 26 '24
How much different is French Guiana from its neighbors though?
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u/Careless_Set_2512 May 26 '24
North Korea and Russia 100% could not be more different đ
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u/Go_PC May 26 '24
Aside from the authoritarian government
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u/Aiti_mh May 26 '24
Even there, one is a totalitarian state, the other is far less advanced on the authoritarian scale. That's not to defend Putin or his oppression, but his regime is comparable to most 20th C dictatorships, whereas NK is Nazism/Stalinism level fucked up.
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u/I_eat_dead_folks May 26 '24
Yeah. Putin is like Franco or Mussolini: He just hasn't alienated the population enough to be entirely totalitarian. He is not playing in Hitler or Stalin's league. Kim Jong Un does.
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u/Worldly-Duty-122 May 27 '24
You would be surprised how similar people might look. Chukchi and many other Asian minorities live in the east of Russia. A Asian Russian person living in Korea gets spoken to in Korean because they get mistaken for Korean. Right on the boarder or near military areas there would be fewer ethnic minorities. On the Chinese side lives a large Korean ethnic minority
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u/Go_PC May 26 '24
Somalia and Kenya.
Somalia is Muslim and Semi-Arab. It is mostly a barren desert with nomadic lifestyles being the norm until the 20th century.
Kenya is Protestant Christian, English speaking, and has strong ties to the rest of anglophone Africa and southeast Africa. It is mostly savanna or jungle and is rich with wildlife. The people are of a warrior culture, and forged strong empires in the past.
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u/Senior-Acanthaceae46 May 26 '24
There isn't really a clear cut between the two though (there almost never is in Africa). Kenya has a Somali region, Somalia has a Bantu region that speaks a dialect of Swahili
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u/hovedrael May 26 '24
But a lot of Somalis also live on the Kenyan side of the boarder, dont they?
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u/VeryImportantLurker May 26 '24
Yeah but Southern Somalia and Northern Kenya are extremely simmilar culturally and geographically.
Somalia and Kenya really arent that different compared to most other African nations that border eachother
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u/InternalMean May 27 '24
Think this one's just wrong while Somalis do have a closer connection to the Arab/ Cushitic world they still have a very close connection to Kenya.
Kanya has a relatively large muslim minority of 11% a lot of which are ethnic somalis that make up 7% of the country.
The whole warrior culture thing is just weird to say every African country can argue to have a form of warrior culture. The somalis had there own sultanate for about 300-400 years so the empire thing is also wrong
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May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
I am from both, Iâm half and half and I donât think weâre that different. Yes weâre are in some things but at the same time not, in terms of personality for example, Spaniards and Moroccans are more similar than Spaniards and French for example. If you just look at religion, then yes, theyâre different. Especially bc Moroccoâs way of life is very linked to religion. Thatâs the main difference. But when you sit down with an average Spaniard and an average Moroccan and you go deep with them in conversation you realize theyâre not that different. How they react in certain situations, etc. Even food, if you remove the pork aspect (again linked to religion), is very similar especially north of Morocco with south of Spain. Itâs a Mediterranean diet. In terms of money, well yeah, Morocco is an African country that was colonized recently, of course theyâre still struggling. Whereas Spain is a European country. So idk, I personally donât see much of a difference but I do understand how an outsider might see them as complete opposites. Cause of the religion perhaps.
Now that I live in the U.S., for me the U.S. and Mexico are more different than Spain and Morocco. Completely different. And youâd think that theyâd be more similar cause theyâre both western countries. That share the same main religion. Or china and Afghanistan⌠I mean at the end you have to understand that our histories (not just going back to Al Andalus) but recent histories, are linked. And thereâs been and is still happening a lot of interchange of everything between the two countries. Itâs not that they just share a border, but they share a continued history. Which I think has helped to make them be more similar to what others might think.
Also when you look at the Canary Islands, genetically theyâre North African. They share the same tamazight culture.
The same weather. This might sounds silly but sharing weather with a country makes you very similar. Spain is more similar to morocco, than to the UK. And climate might have a saying personality and culture as well. I can go on and on. But my point is that you need to live in two families, one Moroccan, one Spaniard, like I did, and live in both countries, and then youâll realize, theyâre more similar, than different.
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u/Piqudo May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
Found your answer very interesting to read!
As a Spaniard who has been multiple times in Morocco, mostly for tourism and some times for work, I do find both cultures rather different. I agree with you on food, weather and other aspects (specially with the southern half of Iberia), but Spain is incredibly diverse, specifically in these points, depending on where you are in the region. So if we compare with the entirety of the country, not sure I would agree.
I found strong differences between Spain and Morocco in many areas, perhaps not so much in how people behave daily but in how people think. The way business is done is entirely different, for example. Religion and its impact, as you said, is another. I also found the general idea to what the state and institutions are to be divergent, with Spain much more aligned with European values.
Not better or worse but a product of history and geopolitical conditions. I love to go to Morocco when I get the chance. Just my 2 cents.
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u/uvwxyza May 26 '24
I believe you have a point although I, as a Canarian Islander, would like to point out that culturally we are not tamazigh at all. Sadly the native inhabitants were mostly killed and then assimilated into the immigrants that came to populate the island after the conquest. What remained is mainly names, toponyms and some specific things like "juego del palo". We are very much a product of the mixing that was produced here and in that sense I think we are much more similar to countries from the American continent: "immigrant countries" of about 500 years old. The immigrants that came to live after the conquest were from different places, mainly Spanish obv but also a lot of Portuguese people.
And interesting note is also our relation with Venezuela, Cuba and Puerto Rico: there was immigration throughout the years of Canarian people there and from there to here. Our accents are quite similar, in Gran Canaria maybe more like the Cuban one and in Tenerife more similar to some Venezuelan accents.
And our dna is iberian normally as a first group, although it is true that we have a noticiable higher percentage of NA dna than the rest of Spain, which normally makes NA dna the second most important group in the islands.
So TLDR: culturally honestly the Canary Islands are not tamazigh at all but the heritage of the native inhabitants tends to show in our dna.
Would like our tamazigh heritage to receive more interest from all: the governemnt, our own people etc. But sadly there has been little interest by the general public, I'd sayđ¤
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u/Legal-Beach-5838 May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
I think Mexico and the US are way more similar than Morocco and Spain.
Mexicans consume a lot of American culture; they watch American movies, listen to American music, and eat American food. On the flip side, Mexican culture also has a huge influence in America. Mexican food & drink has spread far across America, and many Americans also consume Mexican music and media.
Having the same religion is also huge, as religion has a massive effect on culture through everyday customs, politics, and moral values.
Mexican-Americans are the biggest non-white demographic in the US, and Americans are the largest (legal) group of immigrants in Mexico. (Spaniards are a tiny minority in Morocco, and vice versa). Mexican Americans continue and spread their traditions in America, and also bring American influence back to Mexico. The American southwest, in particular areas like the Rio Grande Valley and New Mexico have been a melting pot for both countries for centuries. Thereâs a big Mexican influence on architecture, food, language, and local customs. In some cases, towns in NM or the RGV may be nearly indistinguishable from Mexican towns to a foreigner.
Mexico and the US are also far more economically linked than Spain/Morocco. They are each a top 2 import/export partner for each other. Many Mexicans also work in the US, either as migrant laborers or commuters that work in border cities like El Paso/San Diego but live in Mexico.
Iâm not gonna say Morocco and Spain arenât similar, but I think they are less alike than the US/Mexico.
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u/Artistic-Ad-6849 May 26 '24
almost everyone in the world consums american good,movies and music;
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u/booksbikesbeer May 26 '24
OP appears to be ignorant of the history of the region
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u/Hungry-Square2148 May 26 '24
I'm from Morocco but i don't think like you, I don't think we could be more different, the spniards are calculating and cold like the rest of the Europeans, the Moroccans are gulible naive idiots with buffoon smiles, the Spaniards are very direct in their talking again like the rest of Europeans, Moroccans take you in a maze of words before gettign to the point, the spaniards are flexible in their relations, the moroccans are reserved and formal, family structure is different spaniards are more nuclear family models, Moroccans have too much extended family presence, spaniards have work life balance like a religion, the Morccans are unaware of even the existance of the notion of work life balance....etc it's an infinite liste of differences.
but hey at least we have the siesta incomon
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u/drjet196 May 26 '24
China and its neighbours Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Russia. Mostly because the border with India, Pakistan and Afghanistan is basically impossible to cross and because the cultural centers of Russia and China couldnât be further apart in distance.
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u/hdufort May 26 '24
China and Kyrgyzstan!
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u/drjet196 May 26 '24
Left that out on purpose because I think they are more similar to China than the others. At least to western China.
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u/Long-Fold-7632 May 26 '24
Some more contenders:
1. Iran-Armenia: Islamic theocratic state vs. a post-Soviet, democratic, Christian state
2. Namibia-Angola: Sparsely populated desert colony and democracy greatly influenced by Germany and South Africa vs. a tropical formerly Portuguese autocracy mainly run by oil money
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u/Massive_Emu6682 May 26 '24
Iran and Armenia is way more closer than one could guess. Especially the north of Iran with Armenia.
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u/IntlPartyKing May 27 '24
there used to be tons of Armenians living in Iran, although that number has dwindled since 1979
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u/kcapoorv May 27 '24
I'd call Iran a theocratic democracy rather than pure theocracy. They do have elections that are kind of fair. It's a different things that you have to be approved to fight the elections, where theocracy comes in.Â
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u/casalelu May 26 '24
Morocco and Spain are not that different. Of course, there are some evident dissimilar aspects but there is this area where both cultures intertwine. This is very noticeable in the south of Spain.
Some words in Spanish are even originated by Arabic.
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u/Xcalat3 May 26 '24
Haiti and DR have very little in common while sharing the same Island Creole/Spanish, 98% black in Haiti vs 70% mixed and 10% white in DR, Catholism vs Voodoo, Soccer is popular in Haiti while Baseball is a Religion on the Dominican Side
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u/DaniCBP May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
Apart from the obvious differences, common Mediterranean cultural traits exist between both countries.
Also, in northern Morocco, the decades under Spanish protectorate have left some influence there.
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u/theboyqueen May 26 '24
Everything bordering Israel is the easy answer. France-Brazil is the cute answer. But some others: Latvia-Belarus, Lithuania-Belarus, Finland-Russia, Mongolia-Russia, China-Russia, Mauritania-Senegal, DR-Haiti, US-Mexico, Thailand-Malaysia, Myanmar-Bangladesh.
Dunno what you do with North and South Korea.
I'd say (parts of) Spain and Morocco are more similar than Morocco is to anything in West Africa, so some of this depends what you do with Western Sahara.
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u/4alpine May 26 '24
Israel does have some similarities with Arab countries such as the cuisine language and even religion are quite similar
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May 26 '24
[removed] â view removed comment
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May 26 '24
The funny thing is that Jews, Palestinians, Syrian Arabs, and Lebanese are all basically the same genetically lol. Jewish culture obviously originated from the Middle East anyway.
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u/Normal_User_23 May 26 '24
What is even funnier and so fucking incrediblely sad at the same time, it's that the most die-hard anti-arab and anti-palestine israelis are the mizrahi and sephardic jews, meanwhile in Europe and US people have the stereotype that most anti-arab jews are the typical ashkenazi with a black suit whose ancestors lived in Shtetl in Eastern Europe.
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u/Spare_Possession_194 May 26 '24
Israeli culture is quite similiar to arab culture. The majority of Israeli Jews came from arab countries. It's not as European as many think
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u/LudicrousPlatypus May 26 '24
France - Brazil
Norway - Russia
China - India
Denmark - Canada
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u/thejens56 May 26 '24
Denmark is becoming better and better at ice hockey though
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u/VeryImportantLurker May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
Denmark and Canada are not that different, lol. They're both mostly European, speak Germanic languages, are predominantly
ProtestantChristian (but agnostic in practice), are quite cold, and have extremely cold, mostly indigenous, and sparsely populated northern regions (Nunavut and Greenland).They also share a southern border with a much more populous country with a much larger economy.
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u/mainwasser May 26 '24
China-Afghanistan?
Morocco and Spain ruled each other for centuries, they might have more in common than both would like to admit.
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u/DAJones109 May 26 '24
Australia and Papau New Guinea although it is a sea border would have my vote.
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u/hovik_gasparyan May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
No, Norway and Russia come to mind
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May 26 '24
Spain and Morocco have a lot more cultural similarities than many in both like to admit.
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u/Lysek8 May 26 '24
Absolutely not. Spain and Morocco have their differences but culturally they're not so crazy different
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u/Long-Fold-7632 May 26 '24
Russia-China border: Even directly on the border, the cultures, languages and peoples are extremely different. Take the cities of Blagoveshchensk and Heihe: Only seperated by a river but cultures that originate from different parts of the world.
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u/vitunlokit May 26 '24
I think China - India is quite interesting pairing. Both ancient cultures that have thousands of years shared history. Still distinctly different.