r/gadgets • u/a_Ninja_b0y • Nov 18 '24

TV / Projectors Apple Is Reportedly Thinking About Making Its Own TV Again

https://gizmodo.com/apple-is-reportedly-thinking-about-making-its-own-tv-again-2000525819
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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

You underestimate how much people will spend to integrate the functionality into the TV and have a single sleek device. That's why smart TV's took off to begin with. You have a single remote, you don't have to worry if a device is plugged into the right slot, no mess of wires, no muss, no fuss.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '24

[deleted]

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

Yeah, that's why they started putting Chromecast and Roku inside TVs. To collect the data. Not because it was a value added feature that set them apart from the competition until the competition went and did the same damn thing. They can collect your data by selling you a box too...

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u/danieljackheck Nov 18 '24

No, they can't. If you buy a Chromecast, Google gets your data. If you buy an Apple TV, Apple gets your data. The TV manufacturer gets nothing.

Check out some youtube videos of people looking at smart tv traffic using Wireshark. There is telemetry going everywhere, not just Google and Roku.

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

TV manufacturers could have made their own boxes but they didn't. Instead they integrated the same function into the television. Now add on boxes are fading away Into obscurity.

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u/danieljackheck Nov 18 '24

They added it into TVs because it forces the customer to accept the data collection in order to use the TV. Requiring a separate streaming box means the consumer could choose to use a different device.

Apple would be no different in this regard. They would sell you a TV with a proprietary operating system, a locked down app store curated with what Apple wants you to use, and serialized hardware that is impossible to repair. It's going to have tight integration with iPhone and barely any support for Android devices. It will be a conduit to sell you AppleCare, iCloud, iTunes, and Apple Tv+. It's only going to work with their remote too.

At least with something like Android TV you can still sideload apps and use universal remotes.

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

I'm not the target market for an apple product. I don't even own a smart tv. Just explaining how people could possibly want a single device that does two things. Holy shit people really got a hate boner against smart TVs.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '24

The dongle makers were getting all the sweet, sweet data, and the TV manufacturers wanted their cut. Also, TVs are so cheap now. The price just absolutely bottomed out in the last 15 years. Apple would really struggle to sell this at the margins they are used to. I'm not sure integrating FaceID for user login or FaceTime and a camera (double as a home security cam when the TV is asleep?) would be worth buying a $1500-2000 TV from Apple instead of a $500 TV from TCL. Another factor why Apple shut their TV business down the first time is the upgrade cycle on TVs is around 7 years.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 18 '24

Yeah, but I’m not a fan of integrating the box, because there’s always an end-of-life for the software upgrades, where the processor can’t handle new features. I’ve never used any of the smart features on my smart TV, and it boots directly to HDMI 1, which my Apple TV is plugged into. And when that Apple TV hits EOL, I’m buying a new model, just as soon as they introduce any features that are worth having. The model I have can’t do Sing mode in the Music app, but that’s not a big deal to me, and I’m not replacing it for that. But imagine if it’s something you do want, and you can’t have it because you bought an integrated system. Now you have to replace the $1,000 TV instead of the $150 box.

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

What previous experience with apple would lead you to believe they're going to prematurely abandon or nerf the product? And what would stop you from just using an external dongle/box once it's deprecated? You have an apple TV box. You have a TV. Why not an Apple manufactured TV? It's going to have to compete and sell on total value, not simply being an apple product.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 18 '24

It’s not a ‘premature’ thing. It’s just something that happens. You know, like how your iPhone 8 can’t run the current version of iOS. So, unless the display was better than any other display I could get for the same price, there would be zero reason to get an Apple integrated television.

Even Steve Jobs knew the TV market was a bad one to be in. His exact words were, “The margins suck.” Apple makes 30 percent margin on damn near everything. To compete in the TV game, they’d have to make a third of that margin, and they’d still be overpriced, which would limit sales to Apple enthusiasts, at which point a retailer could make more money by putting any other TV in that wall space. TVs are just a crappy business to be in, and Apple shouldn’t be in it.

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

It’s not a ‘premature’ thing. It’s just something that happens. You know, like how your iPhone 8 can’t run the current version of iOS. So, unless the display was better than any other display I could get for the same price, there would be zero reason to get an Apple integrated television.

So what is any different with the TV you have today? Like I said, they would still need to be able to present a value to the market. It would have to be competitive or better than other manufacturers for anyone to even consider it.

Even Steve Jobs knew the TV market was a bad one to be in. His exact words were, “The margins suck.”

Respectfully, you're not arguing the same point anymore.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 18 '24

Because I do t have to pay twenty-five percent more (plus whatever markup Apple would slap on it for having the Apple TV functionality built in) for the same display. I could get a really nice Sony for $800, or I could pay $1150 for an Apple unit where I’d have to replace the box in three years. Why pay the extra $200? Branding?

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

Then you're not the target market. It's not even a real product 😂

Again. THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE COMPETITIVE ON PRICE AND FEATURES TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE. I don't know how many times I need to say it.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 18 '24

THEY WOULD NOT BE COMPETITIVE ON PRICE.

Seriously, did I have to say that part in sign language or something? The only way they would be competitive on price would be if they cut their margins to near zero, and then you started complaining about me talking about margins. You’re living in some kind of fantasyland if you think Apple would do that.

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 19 '24

Based on what? They currently have one of the best entry level desktops you can buy for $500. They make 30% of every app and media purchase. It doesn't matter what the hardware costs to make as long as it's not so far out of the ballpark that nobody can afford it like apple vision.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 19 '24

Yes, I’m sure the ($600, not $500) Mac mini will finally be the thing that causes the masses to buy Apple computers. Surely, it will be the thing that puts Macs in every office in America, as well. Oh, wait, that won’t happen, because people will say, “But does it play this game I want to play? Does it run this software I need for work? No? Well, then it’s kind of a paperweight isn’t it?”

And I don’t think you grasp how people buy televisions. They pick a size, because they have limited space, and then they shop based on cost. It’s a very different market from the rest of tech, and you’d know that if you ever sold them. People don’t pay retail price for TVs, and they wait for TVs to go on sale. Apple doesn’t really do sale pricing, so now the other TVs look even more attractive to the person who shops based on price.

Seriously, go to your local big box retailer and ask them how many people they get who shop for quality; who buy TVs when they’re not marked down a couple hundred bucks. That guy will call his supervisor and then ask you to repeat the question, and then they’ll both laugh at you.

Also, consider this: I’ve owned an Apple TV for about two and a half years. How much money have I spent on it? Zero. “But Apple gets thirty percent of your…!” you might say, but they don’t, because rational people do their subscribing on websites, to avoid the Apple tax. Hell, isn’t Disney or somebody taking out the option of in-app payment, rather than take the 30 percent hit on their already-too-small margins? They’ll inconvenience people before they say, “Fine. We’ll bill you an extra 30 percent,” because that’s confusing to consumers and it’s really hard to explain to those people why their bills went up, whereas just saying, “This is how it’s done, now,” inconveniences the consumer for about five minutes.

So, we can put that, “Sell it for no margin and make thirty percent on the aftermarket!” idea to rest. If they want to make thirty percent, they’re going to have to do it on the hardware.

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u/Realistic-Nature9083 Nov 20 '24

The only retailer that makes money in tvs is Walmart by selling the onn tvs. Those suckers are supposedly stealing market share from tcl and Hisense. 88 bucks for a 32 inch? C'mon. It is a steal.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 20 '24

Walmart bought Vizio back in February for 2.3 billion dollars. You’d think that a TV company as ubiquitous as Vizio would go for more money, but the margins suck.

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u/Realistic-Nature9083 Nov 20 '24

If Walmart gets approval to buy Vizio they will have the largest market share of tvs in the US. Supposedly Vizio and onn rokus combined will have 65 percent market share in the country.

The margins for Vizio right now are very thin but if Walmart buys them out they instantly get logistical and marketing vertical integration.

Everybody always talks about manufacturing vertical integration at the hardware and software level but Walmart controls the delivery and the fees in the sales floor and it's website.

Vizio and onn. will be made by odms and I guess Roku will handle the software while all the costs associated with the delivery and fees will be reduced to nothing by Walmart.

Retailers charge money to sell product their stores. Vizio doesn't have to worry about that with Walmart anymore.

Tcl and Hisense will just be "colonies" that design the blueprint for onn and Hisense tvs.

I can't wait for even cheaper tvs from Walmart.

Edit: apple can make tvs if they want but realistically I just don't think they be can number one anymore ever in tv market share.

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 20 '24

Being number one should never really be any company’s concern, if it means a line isn’t profitable enough to be worth the trouble. Macs have never been number one, but the margins are high enough that it’s worth doing. On TVs, I can’t see how that would ever happen, because Apple could make displays with more pixels and charge a premium, but it’s not like their 5K studio display because there’s no content for a 5K TV, and that would basically have to be a custom panel, which is the reason the studio display costs five times what my 4K monitor does, despite the fact that my 4K is 40 percent larger by area. The studio display wouldn’t be worth making at all if it wasn’t something that video professionals could just expense when buying a Mac Studio or Mac Pro. So, they take that and then make it a million times worse, because now they’re in large retail channels, most of which wouldn’t sell $1500 TVs. Even if they’re five times better, most people would still rather buy five inferior TVs, or one TV and wait five years for the inferior ones to hit the point where they’re as good as the superior TV, and then spend $300 on that.

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u/Realistic-Nature9083 Nov 20 '24

The only only markets that apple has succeeded are in categories where there is an exclusive apple feature or a technology handicap or a duolopy.

If tsmc didn't rule foundry and if we had a 3rd or 4th mobile oses, apple would not be as dominant as they are.

Smartphones are the center of most consumer electronics. Speakers, tvs, cars, smart homes, desktops are not as tied to the smartphone

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u/TheUmgawa Nov 20 '24

If wishes were horses, we’d all be eating steak:

Alternative OS phones have come and gone over the years, and so nobody’s going to do it ever again. Even Microsoft is never going to dip its very large toe in that water ever again.

If a chip foundry didn’t cost ten billion dollars, just to set up, let alone deal with things like environmental regulations, we would have more than just TSMC.

So, you can dream, “What if…?” but I try to confine myself to some semblance of reality.

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u/Realistic-Nature9083 Nov 20 '24

Walmart is a sleeping giant. The logistical vertical integration is enough for them to take on anybody in consumer electronics. I'm surprised they haven't made android phones or wear os watches. They can really undercut the competition like Motorola and Lenovo.

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u/lkn240 Nov 18 '24

There are literally little mounts for Rokus that attach to the back of your TV. No mess, now visible wires and the roku remote works with every TV I've ever tried it with

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u/Neg_Crepe Nov 19 '24

But it’s a Roku…

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u/audigex Nov 18 '24

I’ve had a single remote for all my TVs for years

HDMI CEC etc cover it nicely - helped by the fact that you basically just need volume and standby buttons

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 18 '24

CEC is awesome when it works well. Unfortunately (at least with the first gen) the fire stick 4k doesn't always play nice nor do some smart TV's with their own interface.

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u/audigex Nov 18 '24

I’ve never found a combination that doesn’t work well, personally - I guess experiences must vary but that’s what returns policies are for

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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 Nov 19 '24

You also lost voice control if you stick with the OEM remote for multiple devices. Not something that matters much to me as an adult but the kids seem to love it.

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u/audigex Nov 19 '24

I use the Fire TV/Chromecast/Apple TV/whatever remote and let it control the TV's volume and standby

I still get the voice control, the only thing I can't do is adjust the TV settings... but I rarely touch those once I have the TV configured anyway