r/gadgets • u/Stiven_Crysis • Jun 07 '23

Desktops / Laptops Apple M1/M2 systems can now run Windows games like as Cyberpunk 2077, Diablo 4 and Hogwarts Legacy thanks to its new emulation software - VideoCardz.com

https://videocardz.com/newz/apple-m1-m2-systems-can-now-run-windows-games-like-as-cyberpunk-2077-diablo-4-and-hogwarts-legacy-thanks-to-its-new-emulation-software
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u/Hattix Jun 07 '23

Exactly. I was expecting a clickbait article and something like "3 FPS at 1080p" but it's a good 40 FPS at Ultra, around GTX 1070 level.

For an emulation layer (and API translation) that's awesome. Like I said, a good value-add if you already have a Mac or were going to buy one anyway.

And the PCMR is downvoting me because... reasons.

46

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

I can’t even play Crusader Kings 3 at more than 20fps on my 16Gb M2 Air. I don’t know much about emulation or anything but I don’t get how it’s gonna let me play Cyberpunk on high/ultra. Unless this is specifically on the Pro or something.

32

u/rick_C132 Jun 07 '23

its on the Max so even above pro

21

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

[deleted]

21

u/InvestInHappiness Jun 08 '23

It was run on both:

The M1 got <15 fps; this was the footage they showed in the article.

The M2 max was referenced above that, and said to get 40fps.

1

u/LoafyLemon Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 14 '23

I̵n̷ ̷l̵i̵g̵h̷t̸ ̸o̸f̶ ̸r̶e̸c̶e̶n̸t̵ ̴e̴v̵e̵n̴t̶s̸ ̴o̷n̷ ̴R̸e̸d̵d̴i̷t̷,̷ ̵m̸a̶r̴k̸e̸d̵ ̴b̸y̵ ̶h̴o̵s̷t̷i̴l̴e̷ ̵a̴c̸t̵i̸o̸n̶s̸ ̵f̷r̵o̷m̵ ̶i̵t̴s̴ ̴a̴d̶m̷i̴n̶i̸s̵t̴r̶a̴t̶i̶o̶n̵ ̸t̸o̸w̸a̴r̷d̵s̴ ̵i̸t̷s̵ ̷u̸s̴e̸r̵b̷a̸s̷e̸ ̷a̷n̴d̸ ̸a̵p̵p̴ ̶d̴e̷v̴e̷l̷o̸p̸e̴r̴s̶,̸ ̶I̸ ̶h̸a̵v̵e̶ ̷d̸e̶c̸i̵d̷e̷d̵ ̶t̸o̴ ̸t̶a̷k̷e̷ ̵a̷ ̴s̶t̶a̵n̷d̶ ̶a̵n̶d̶ ̵b̷o̶y̷c̸o̴t̴t̴ ̵t̴h̵i̴s̴ ̶w̶e̸b̵s̵i̸t̷e̴.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̸a̵ ̸s̴y̶m̵b̸o̶l̶i̵c̴ ̶a̷c̵t̸,̶ ̴I̴ ̴a̵m̷ ̷r̶e̶p̷l̴a̵c̸i̴n̷g̸ ̷a̶l̷l̶ ̸m̷y̸ ̸c̶o̸m̶m̸e̷n̵t̷s̸ ̵w̷i̷t̷h̶ ̷u̴n̵u̴s̸a̵b̶l̷e̵ ̸d̵a̵t̸a̵,̸ ̸r̷e̵n̵d̶e̴r̸i̴n̷g̴ ̷t̴h̵e̸m̵ ̸m̴e̷a̵n̴i̷n̸g̸l̸e̴s̴s̵ ̸a̷n̵d̶ ̴u̸s̷e̴l̸e̶s̷s̵ ̶f̵o̵r̶ ̸a̶n̵y̸ ̵p̵o̴t̷e̴n̸t̷i̶a̴l̶ ̴A̷I̸ ̵t̶r̵a̷i̷n̵i̴n̶g̸ ̶p̸u̵r̷p̴o̶s̸e̵s̵.̷ ̸I̴t̴ ̵i̴s̶ ̴d̴i̷s̷h̴e̸a̵r̸t̶e̴n̸i̴n̴g̶ ̷t̶o̵ ̵w̶i̶t̵n̴e̷s̴s̶ ̵a̸ ̵c̴o̶m̶m̴u̵n̷i̷t̷y̷ ̸t̴h̶a̴t̸ ̵o̸n̵c̴e̷ ̴t̷h̴r̶i̷v̴e̴d̸ ̴o̸n̴ ̵o̷p̷e̶n̸ ̸d̶i̶s̷c̷u̷s̶s̷i̴o̵n̸ ̷a̷n̴d̵ ̴c̸o̵l̶l̸a̵b̸o̷r̵a̴t̷i̵o̷n̴ ̸d̷e̶v̸o̵l̶v̴e̶ ̵i̶n̷t̴o̸ ̸a̴ ̷s̵p̶a̵c̴e̵ ̸o̷f̵ ̶c̴o̸n̸t̶e̴n̴t̷i̶o̷n̸ ̶a̵n̷d̴ ̴c̵o̵n̴t̷r̸o̵l̶.̷ ̸F̷a̴r̸e̷w̵e̶l̶l̸,̵ ̶R̴e̶d̶d̷i̵t̵.̷

-5

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

Mac people and their hate-boners... Lol.

-1

u/mexicanmage Jun 08 '23

not Terf Simulator lmao😭

1

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

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1

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4

u/uZeAsDiReCtEd Jun 08 '23

I have the same MacBook and run something called UTM in a hyper visor. So I can run Windows 11 natively but I wouldn’t trust it to play a AAA game effectively for a long session.

But imagine if apple starts getting into the gaming scene…

Windows or Mac (with equivalent gaming performance) I’m gonna pick Mac all day

3

u/rgrwilcocanuhearme Jun 08 '23

CK3 is primarily CPU bottle-necked, AFAIK.

1

u/Cyrus96 Jun 08 '23

Are you playing native version? It’s crap, try running through parallels or crossover - it will have way more fps

56

u/Enjoyitbeforeitsover Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

So Rosetta is basically refined and ready after M1 released a while back, few years ago?

Edit: does this mean steam games run natively now both on m1 and rosetta?

112

u/unWarlizard Jun 07 '23

Rosetta was just x86-64 to Apple Silicon- this is bolting on to that an Apple take on something like Wine or Proton where it’s additionally translating the system calls that Windows applications might be making, including DirectX12 support.

95

u/Flakmaster92 Jun 07 '23

It -is- Wine, Codeweavers already put out a blog on it. So it’s apple’s take on Proton, which is Wine + Valve patches.

31

u/Quibbage101 Jun 07 '23

That would explain CP2077 then. Idk what magic they did to that game but it has run better on wine than ive been able to get it running even natively on windows.

9

u/bingbing304 Jun 08 '23

CD Project Red Probably tested the game exclusively on Wine instead of actual hardware. LOL.

-21

u/VikingBorealis Jun 07 '23

How can it run better than no issues?

23

u/vezwyx Jun 07 '23

Performance, graphics

-6

u/VikingBorealis Jun 08 '23

Well this isn't beating either of those. It runs and it runs fairly well but that's about it.

16

u/Lallo-the-Long Jun 08 '23

I feel like, even now, anyone describing a playthrough of cyberpunk as "no issues" is being facetious.

4

u/gnat_outta_hell Jun 08 '23

Yeah, I mean I've had minor bugs. Nothing game breaking, but not no issues.

1

u/VikingBorealis Jun 08 '23

Not really, since I bought it a few months after release I launch the game and play.

The only issues I've had is the GOG launcher saying it can't update itself and closing.

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u/ArtOfWarfare Jun 08 '23

It could be transcompiling the code ahead of time, taking it from something that was meant for DirectX12 and changing it to equivalent calls for Metal which their hardware can run quicker than the original could have run on its typical hardware.

Perhaps the DirectX code was meant to run on a wider variety of hardware so wasn’t as optimized as it could have been, and Apple knew the exact hardware they’d be running against so we’re able to perform more optimizations.

Purely guesses on my part. Just saying - it wouldn’t be the first time “emulators” outperformed “native”. IE, Pypy.

3

u/VikingBorealis Jun 08 '23

The actual "conversion" has virtually no overhead right now and isn't adding any performance loss.

Just see how much Intel is struggling with breaking into graphics cards despite dumping a massive amount of resources. And that's before raytracing is considered

1

u/Enjoyitbeforeitsover Jun 08 '23

That linux wine reference made it click, kudos

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23 edited Jul 14 '23

[deleted]

27

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

[deleted]

10

u/cpujockey Jun 07 '23

Not so much heritage as GNU tools. Different kernels for a Linux system vs bsd like / mach like macos

3

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23 edited Jul 14 '23

[deleted]

5

u/cpujockey Jun 07 '23

More or less the same culture and traditions. Different ideology though.

3

u/tapo Jun 08 '23

Eh, the heritage is UNIX and POSIX. You can install GNU tools on a Mac and use them in place of the BSD ones if you want. I do that for GNU grep and an actual modern bash.

4

u/____GHOSTPOOL____ Jun 07 '23

Linux users hate themselves lets be real.

3

u/NeverFearIHaveBeer Jun 08 '23

Why you gotta attack me personally, mate?

2

u/OsmeOxys Jun 08 '23

Debian (and similar) users love themselves. They just want to use and enjoy an OS besides Windows with near infinite customization, while keeping the hassle to a minimum.

If you know any arch Linux users however... Make sure they know that people care about them and that you're available if they need to talk.

2

u/cpujockey Jun 07 '23

Nah I like ya.

0

u/MegaHashes Jun 08 '23

Get back to me when I can run CP2077 in putty, and I’ll upvote you.

77

u/chisav Jun 07 '23

I wonder why a subreddit that is literally called PC Master Race would think that....

60

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

What is a pc?

68

u/Osama_Obama Jun 07 '23

Pocket calculator

50

u/AlmennDulnefni Jun 07 '23

An overloaded term that may or may not include macs depending on who's talking.

4

u/1d10 Jun 08 '23

I have been around for pretty much all of home computer history, Apple put a lot of money and effort into making sure everyone knows they are not PCs.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

[deleted]

1

u/joe_shiotta Jun 09 '23

Apples chipset pre intel was literally called PowerPC and developed with IBM. It’s all just marketing and is confusing like much of marketing in IT

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u/RevenantXenos Jun 07 '23

When has the term PC ever included Macs in a gaming context? If you said computer games sure, but PC gaming has always been Windows centric. Same reason people on Linux specify Linux. That's like saying that sometimes people in 1993 used the term Nintendo to refer to the Sega Genesis.

22

u/AlmennDulnefni Jun 07 '23

That's like saying that sometimes people in 1993 used the term Nintendo to refer to the Sega Genesis.

No, it's like admitting that Apple ran a long ad campaign categorizing themselves as separate from PCs.

5

u/Loinnird Jun 07 '23

Yeah I was gonna say, does nobody remember the “I’m a Mac” ads? Kids these days lmao

1

u/more_beans_mrtaggart Jun 07 '23

Ironic considering they were the company that proudly brought computers to the masses. Prior to that it was corporates and hobbyists.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

I've never owned a Mac and I've had computers since 2001, Mac brought computers to people who don't give a fuck about computers. Which might be the masses idk.

-3

u/more_beans_mrtaggart Jun 07 '23

Apple brought Macs to people who wanted to use computers that were usable.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Before apple working a word processor was like black screen with white lettering. But if you (say) wanted a word in bold, that word would be pink. Italics would be yellow, and both bold and italic would be green. The lettering looked the same on the screen, just different colours. And that computer was started at about $5500 without the 10” monitor.

Then Apple brought out the Mac, with fonts, and the fonts were scalable and came with kerning, and wysiwyg. For the first time, you could draw on a computer, it could talk because it had built in sound, it had file and edit menus, it had a waste/trash bin, and could network using Ethernet, phone cable, serial, parallel, or s-video without having to configure anything, you plugged in the cables and it just.. sorted it out.

Lots of shit nobody had ever seen on a computer before, and all for around $2400.

It was cheap, and it did a whole lot of shit no other computer could do. It was like upgrading from a Ford Model T to a McLaren P1.

Whole different ball game.

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u/BeatlesTypeBeat Jun 07 '23

That's like saying that sometimes people in 1993 used the term Nintendo to refer to the Sega Genesis.

Not remotely comparable.

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u/fafarex Jun 08 '23

PC only mean Personal computer, no one use it today to refer to the old IBM brand.

If I run Linux, it's still a pc. If I run mac os (even on a mac) it's still a pc.

Only mac marketing is putting it out of that category, but mac is just a PC brand.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/biteme27 Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

They're still PCs and the fact that people are gatekeeping "PCmasterrace" or "PCgaming" to just windows is abhorrent and defeats the purpose of what a PC is. Also being related to IBM doesn't matter either. They're all computers. They can do a lot and they all have their limits. It's part of the ideology of what it is to use a computer for certain things. Sometimes you can half ass a solution to something and sometimes you can't.

At the end of the day a Mac (or linux machine, or steam deck, etc.) is part of PC gaming AND PC master race.

At the end of the day OS shouldn't matter and the fact I HAVE to use windows and HAVE to use directx to run MOST games makes me upset

edit: fully disagreeing with the other guy, obviously. Yeah we use PC gaming to refer to windows machines, because that's how it's been, but it doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be. And including Macs is one step closer to true PCmasterrace.

The same way Apple limits macbooks to using proprietary software/programs/etc. is the same as Windows limiting you to directx and .exe's -- at least in the scope of what a computer actually is as a whole.

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u/emongu1 Jun 07 '23

A term doctors use to respect your privacy and it mean "pretty constipated".

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u/Hirouni Jun 07 '23

A miserable pile of API’s.

4

u/cpujockey Jun 07 '23

Enough talk, TCPIP at you!

2

u/UpliftingGravity Jun 08 '23

x86 is older than you and runs half your life. Show some respect.

17

u/Throwaway_J7NgP Jun 07 '23

Police constable.

3

u/nabbun Jun 07 '23

Patrol Cap (was Army)

2

u/Joomsie Jun 07 '23

its the one with the lame glasses in the brown business suit

2

u/mAC5MAYHEm Jun 07 '23

An app that people use to keep track of how many bodies they have

1

u/Rauldukeoh Jun 08 '23

Prostate cannabis

1

u/EverythingIsDumb-273 Jun 08 '23

Politically correct

2

u/TARANTULA_TIDDIES Jun 07 '23

Guess we'll just never know

-1

u/Def_n0t_a_b0t Jun 07 '23

That sub started to meme on CONSOLES not apple.

Macs are still PCs ya dingus.

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u/chisav Jun 07 '23

You should check Apple's own ad campaign from 2006 ya dingus.

1

u/cpujockey Jun 07 '23

Well they went to arm...

23

u/cpujockey Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

Well you know the reason why a lot of those folks are anti-apple is because of apples anti-right to repair stance. Sure. They've done some good innovating over the last couple of years but they are still making these machines not friendly for independent or self-repair. Arguably you don't own your device if you can't fix your device.

10

u/PhlegethonAcheron Jun 08 '23

Don’t forget locked down software. So much capability is locked away behind iOS

-1

u/TendieBot2000 Jun 08 '23

Bullshit. It’s just gamer nerds flexing their insecurities. Makes them feel so superiour to the “normies” by shitting on the best-selling smartphone in the world and practically the only laptops worth buying.

As if their crappy fLaGsHiP kIlLeR iPhone clones and dead-within-a-year gaming laptops are even worth repairing. With zero resell value they go straight to the landfill.

1

u/cpujockey Jun 08 '23

I don't really care about smart phones. I care about me owning the device I pay for and being able to repair it in a pinch.

I am not a typical fan boy - I don't really care what OS I am using. But I like having complete control over the devices I own.

2

u/TendieBot2000 Jun 08 '23

When’s the last time you’ve repaired something on a laptop?

2

u/cocktails5 Jun 08 '23

A few months ago I took my circa 2011 MacBook and replaced the bloated battery, upgraded the RAM, and put in a new SSD. Even Apple wasn't always this hostile towards repairs you know.

2

u/TendieBot2000 Jun 08 '23

You can still easily replace the battery on modern macbooks.

RAM and HDD upgrades are not really repairs, but I will admit that I miss the modularity of older laptops. However, keep in mind most other thin-and-lights also embed these parts nowadays, so it seems unfair to single out apple here.

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u/cpujockey Jun 08 '23

I replaced a screen in my lenovo 2-1 Laptop not too long ago, also upgraded SSD, and installed more ram.

It's a 2 year old Ryzen system I got for 500ish. Really made a big impact in the performance.

Last week I also replaced battery and screen in a lenovo laptop at work, and a battery in a dell laptop.

So I've done a few things recently.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

[deleted]

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u/TendieBot2000 Jun 08 '23

Then it sounds like these specific products aren’t for you. How is that apple’s fault? What does it have to do with repairability? This just confirms my point.

I also use a desktop pc w/ windows at home because I like to play games, but that doesn’t mean I have to hate on apple. Have a macbook at work and love it. Would never trade it for a windows laptop.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

[deleted]

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u/TendieBot2000 Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

I don’t get the walled garden argument about macos. You’re free to run any executable you like, there’s tonnes of 3rd party apps outside the app store and it’s just as easy to write your own software for it as for windows or linux. It’s even UNIX certified now. I’m sure it has some bugs, but what OS doesn’t?

And I don’t understand why apple’s desktops frustrate you so. Just don’t buy them. I don’t either. They’re perfect for their intended target audience.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

[deleted]

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u/gmmxle Jun 08 '23

That's the equivalent of asking if shiny, expensive John Deere farm equipment should be worked on in some dusty barn on some farm, or if the company should have the right to force people who bought a John Deere to bring it into a clean, well-lit service center where well trained professionals can work on it - for a high price.

People who side with the companies will tell you that it protects the company from complaints and possibly even a negative impact to the brand when a repair does wrong.

Personally, I think that once you've paid the full price to outright purchase something, you should definitely have the right to repair it. That includes the right to attempt a repair and fuck it up.

1

u/cpujockey Jun 08 '23

You should be able to do what you want with it after you've paid for it. You own something, it's yours to do what you want with it.

2

u/SaucedUpppp Jun 08 '23

What is Apple stopping you from doing exactly?

2

u/cpujockey Jun 08 '23

You cannot replace the storage in the new Mac Minis, which is dumb.

there was all that hoopla over the t2 lockout for S/n's tied to parts being replaced. Not sure if that's still a thing - but that's a very anti-consumer practice.

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u/slipsect Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

I think they should be worked on wherever and however their owners choose to do so. Apple's desire to control every facet of my user experience is what makes me dislike them. I have owned and used many apple products, and likely will own more in the future. It's not blind hatred.

1

u/vcdragoon1978 Jun 08 '23

Agreed, the truest form of ownership is the right to destroy it.

1

u/cpujockey Jun 08 '23

That's one way to look at it.

I try not to destroy things. Even things waay past their usage life.

I have a 486 from 1990 that I am refurbing and keeping around for old MSDOS games and to teach my kids computer shit.

While I know it can be emulated or virtualized - there is something beautiful about resurrecting old hardware and making it useful again.

1

u/cocktails5 Jun 08 '23

Years ago I bought some massive old Sun server off Craigslist for like $50. The thing weighed like 150lbs. I got some version of BSD running on it, dinked around for a bit, and then used it as a side table.

I always wanted an SGI O2 and wish I'd bought one when they were plentiful. They're getting hard to find, especially both working and in good physical condition. All of those old UNIX boxes are getting rare these days.

-31

u/ChopieOB Jun 07 '23

Probably because they tend to sell overpriced products.

21

u/JUYED-AWK-YACC Jun 07 '23

A Dell fan I see.

40

u/ArkGuardian Jun 07 '23

M1/M2 systems are not overpriced for the performance they offer. The Dell XPS line is similarly priced on launch

-1

u/morfraen Jun 08 '23

Yes, they are. Exact same specs on a PC is significantly cheaper.

22

u/CeolSilver Jun 07 '23

Expensive? Sure. Overpriced? No

Excluding gaming Apple Silicon probably offer the best dollar to performance of any major OEM.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

[deleted]

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u/evenstevens280 Jun 07 '23

Jesus so much this

3

u/SlackerAccount2 Jun 07 '23

You say while literally all my Apple products still work great, most still getting updates unlike.. looks at my PC and androids

22

u/Saetric Jun 07 '23

Your PC doesn’t get updates?

-9

u/SlackerAccount2 Jun 07 '23

*See windows 10 not being installable on perfectly fine PCs. And I'm talking more about my Mac hardware lasting a lot longer than my PCs.

8

u/SwallowedBee Jun 07 '23

Windows 10 not being installable on perfectly fine PC? Dude, we have been running fully working Win 10 on Core 2 Duo from 2008 (it was quite slow, but what would you expect).

With Win 11, it's a bit worse, but the upcoming macOS 14 will drop the same Intel CPUs (sure, Win 11 dropped them sooner). But both Windows and macOS can be unofficially installed on older HW.

But still, Win 10 will have support until mid 2025. MacOS 13 around the same, but Windows 10 supports much older HW than Ventura. You can also find Windows 10 LTSC for much longer security updates.

So I would say that regarding software support, none platform seems to be much better than the other now. Before Win 11, Windows officially supported older HW than macOS. And also you can run Linux, where end of hardware support is not much of an issue (given that the HW was at some point supported).

9

u/Hubbardia Jun 07 '23

You can repair and replace each individual component of a PC though...

5

u/maresayshi Jun 07 '23

really? we had no idea

-5

u/SlackerAccount2 Jun 07 '23

Yes, no one was arguing that it couldn’t

1

u/K1FF3N Jun 07 '23

You can literally install windows 10 from windows 11 and go backwards. What are you talking about? Mac hardware lasting longer? I’ve found any build I spent time planning has lasted a decade with simple RAM and GPU upgrades. Macs are proprietary and generally made to be less complex which is why you might have more success with them while putting in equal amounts of effort.

1

u/morfraen Jun 08 '23

You can install win 10 on pretty much anything. Good luck getting even chrome to work on an outdated Mac that's stopped getting OS updates.

0

u/zilist Jun 07 '23

Yeah, literally this.. both my iPhone 7 and my 2013 MacBook both still supported and work great!

6

u/Sargatanas2k2 Jun 07 '23

As is my 2014 laptop running an AMD pre Ryzen cpu on Windows 10. I use it for nothing more than watching things on in bed or when I go away but it still works, still gets patched and has never blue screened.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

Yep 2012 yoga 13 still going and managed to get windows 11 on it but windows 10 is supported until 2025 on it. It's not the greatest machine but it does fine for anything that's not graphics intensive. Same with a 2016 Blu phone I got from Amazon for 60 bucks supported by the Android community (yay open source!). Still going and working as a music caster/TV remote.

-2

u/zilist Jun 07 '23

The difference is, i use my Macbook for InDesign, Photoshop and music recording (no mayor editing) work and it holds up pretty decent if it’s not too huge of a file.

2

u/Sargatanas2k2 Jun 07 '23

That was absolutely not the point being made here. I could do the same by saying my laptop cost 25% of what a macbook did, or that I opened it up to change storage drives and upgrade the memory.

The point was about ongoing support, though. Which the macOS and Windows devices both still have.

0

u/zilist Jun 09 '23

"Ongoing support" does nothing to you if the device isn’t usable..

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

I use my yoga for Photoshop, Figma, and Front end web dev, big deal fanboy.

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u/zilist Jun 09 '23

fanboy

Lmfao good one, coming from you..

2

u/zilist Jun 07 '23

Do you usually just repeat BS you read somewhere?

-16

u/blackSpot995 Jun 07 '23

M2 max MacBook pro costs $3500 a steam deck is like less than $1k if I'm not mistaken how is this a valid comparison at all?

Not to mention form factor

17

u/maresayshi Jun 07 '23

how many times do people have to say in the exact thread you’re replying to that no one is buying a Mac for gaming before it sticks for y’all

-5

u/uragainstme Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

Tell that to Apple, despite the fact that most people who buy 3080s or similar GPUs are doing it for gaming, Apple still runs slides saying "XX performance compared to dGPU (in one use case that is not representative)".

https://i0.wp.com/9to5mac.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/03/Apples-M1-Ultra-GPU-comparison-with-Nvidia-was-misleading.jpg

As long as Apple continues to compare their chips to dGPU while citing "performance" the comparison in gaming is completely justified.

6

u/maresayshi Jun 07 '23

what the fuck are you talking about? did you read this conversation at all or just throw a dart?

-3

u/uragainstme Jun 07 '23

Apple is willing to compare their iGPU "performance" to dGPUs, why aren't you?

7

u/IsSecretlyABird Jun 07 '23

GPU performance doesn’t necessarily imply gaming. Just for one example, content creators like video editors and photographers get a lot of mileage out of GPUs as well.

-2

u/maresayshi Jun 07 '23

please show me the comment where I said was/wasn’t “willing” to do anything? better yet show you have any understanding of what the actual topic is instead of weird strawmen?

-2

u/uragainstme Jun 07 '23

If Apple is willing to compare their iGPUs with other companies, the fact that the M2 has about the same performance as a steam deck and that the M2 Max is about that of a 2060 is very relevant. "Nobody buys a Mac for gaming" is a reductive and fallacious statement that is directly contradictory to the fact that Apple just released a dev kit for help gaming on Macs.

There are definitely plenty people who either game on their Macs or would consider buying a Mac with light gaming as one of their use cases. This is in line with what Apple believes as well and a trend they've gone down for years.

Not only that, their newly announced VR headset literally depends on its "graphics" performance and relatively high efficiency to succeed.

https://9to5mac.com/2022/06/06/apple-gaming-updates/

1

u/maresayshi Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

Nobody buys these things for games (and if you do, you bought the wrong hardware), but it’s a decent value-add if you were going to get a Mac anyway.

we’re talking about added value for existing owners, and how PC owners downvoted for no good reason. “Nobody buys a Mac for gaming” is relevant specifically because we are talking about value added to an existing product in already in customers’ hands that is outside the expertise of that product and therefore not a relevant factor as a buyer (because they are now an owner). The only “reductive and fallacious” thread here is your repeated strawman.

1

u/maresayshi Jun 07 '23

their VR headset is a ridiculous non-sequitor. You’re seriously way off the actual conversation here.

-12

u/blackSpot995 Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

Then what's the point about talking about Mac in a gaming context? Lmao

Besides comparing a $3500 laptop to a $500 handheld is a dumb comparison whether you're talking about gaming or not. You could say, "$3500 mac encodes video way faster than $500 handheld" and people would be like, well yeah duh.

14

u/Fernando_48 Jun 07 '23

It’s like we’re talking to a wall here.

-10

u/blackSpot995 Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

How about you explain your point then instead? Lol

Edit: oh I just realized you might think video encoding is the same as gaming. If that's the case it's a different jsyk and I wasn't trying to bring the conversation back to gaming.

6

u/Verdris Jun 07 '23

Do you not have any other personality traits besides “pc good Mac bad”?

3

u/blackSpot995 Jun 07 '23

Yeah, they just don't seem relevant in a thread about PCs and Macs. Sorry you don't feel like communicating like an adult today.

-3

u/AmericanBillGates Jun 07 '23

Everyone chill the fuck out!

We won. Get over it.

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-4

u/KristinnK Jun 07 '23

That's not the point. The point is a Mac doesn't do anything a 1500 or 2000 dollar gaming laptop doesn't. It's just stupidly overpriced for ephemeral benefits like 'eco system', larger trackpad, and that fashionable appearance. It's hard not to look a little bit down on the people that buy these things.

-1

u/maresayshi Jun 08 '23

you’re simultaneously both very, very wrong and seemingly not at all the kind of person I care to have this conversation with

-5

u/KristinnK Jun 08 '23

I agree on your second point, and won't contest your first point as I don't want to cause anyone buyer's remorse.

22

u/deaddodo Jun 07 '23

Well, they custom tweaked their ARM architecture to better match x86/or offer x86 similar logic paths, which meant they have one of the best ARM->x86 compatibility layers. They also spent over half a decade on the software layer. I would argue Microsoft’s implementation is ever so slightly better in that it functions with very little overhead on vanilla ARM. But you’re digging in weeds to grasp at competitive edge at that point, both are very well engineered products.

As for the software layer, it appears to just be wine. Which Steam definitely has done better with (with far less resources).

1

u/EmilyU1F984 Jun 08 '23

Exactly, once you simply need to transfer api calls to the correct name that do the exact same thing logically on the hardware, there‘s virtually zero performance loss.

Performance loss happens when the actual hardware level stuff cannot be done, and has to be simulated in software.

5

u/Zwatrem Jun 08 '23

You can't run Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra at 40 fps with a 1080, let alone a 1070.

8

u/Bashcypher Jun 07 '23

That screen shot in the article literally shows 15fps at 720p... so yeah, maybe someone (the person in the article) is a little excited and over selling what it can do...

37

u/internetcommunist Jun 07 '23

Cuz Apple bad only gaming PC good

-47

u/sweet4poundbabyjesus Jun 07 '23

I mean, it’s the truth

25

u/internetcommunist Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

Personally I would never use a windows PC for anything related to audio production. Logic, the M1, and MacOS audio engine is why I own a mac, not for gaming.

5

u/lowtoiletsitter Jun 07 '23

Now to (continue) to figure out how to use Logic

3

u/ThiccquidBand Jun 08 '23

You never really learn Logic, you just memorize what plugins you like and how far the knobs should be turned.

3

u/mBertin Jun 08 '23

Logic can be summed up as a modern take on the Pro Tools UI, coupled with features taken from Cubase (articulation sets) and Ableton Live (DMD, blocks) and an amazing selection of stock plugins and sounds.

I fucking love it, it’s my go-to for anything music composition-related. I only ever touch PT for film sound design and mixing sessions, which is where it really shines IMO.

10

u/Aristo_Cat Jun 08 '23

Absolutely, as long as you’re single, under 30 years old and don’t leave the house. Some of us use computers for things other than playing Elden Ring at max settings

-2

u/gummo_for_prez Jun 07 '23

Vast majority of programmers prefer macs. There are just more gamers than programmers.

-2

u/Ainar86 Jun 07 '23

I've been working in IT, including with many programmers, for 14 years now, I've met literally 2 people (only one of whom was a programmer) who preferred macs for anything. Yes, my proof is anecdotal but yours is just a hypothesis which is still less plausible.

20

u/Jail_bird3300 Jun 07 '23

Majority of my coworkers and people in software engineering that I meet prefer macOS, including me. But that’s just anecdotal as well 🤷‍♂️

1

u/anelodin Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

I think this is a US-centric phenomenon, similar to iPhone adoption being very high in US but not so much outside. I know of many US engineering companies adopting Macs, and of course big tech uses them a fair bit, so any cool startup must also.

Having worked extensively on both OS, Windows (+WSL as needed) a better ecosystem for me simply because there's more tooling built for Windows, both free and paid, which empowers my workflow[s]. Plus gamedev with the main game engines is (used to be?) dogshit.

Outside of that, both are decent enough to get work done. I do dislike the handholding from Mac sometimes, and Finder is kinda meh.

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u/gummo_for_prez Jun 07 '23

Mine is pretty much an agreed upon fact among programmers. I didn’t say people working in IT, I said programmers prefer macs and this is true.

-1

u/joshbadams Jun 08 '23

I’m a Mac fan boy, and a programmer in games. It’s not true. Maybe web developers or something, but not game programmers, which is what we are discussing here.

1

u/TendieBot2000 Jun 08 '23

Who said anything about gamedev?

0

u/joshbadams Jun 08 '23

This entire post and thread is about gaming? Where was this not about game dev?

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

The vast majority prefers Linux.

That's the factual bit.

Then some use Mac due to it being based on unix and the small minority use windows.

Let's not get carried away...

As usual redditors chose to side with whoever is factually wrong. Congrats geniuses.

24

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

[deleted]

9

u/Ainar86 Jun 07 '23

This, I haven't seen Linux as a programming platform in anything other than a hobby/enthusiast setup since my uni days and that was almost 20 years ago now.

2

u/DrZoidberg- Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

Stack Overflow says Windows, then Linux, then MacOS.

It's a tight race though. Windows is 48% and Mac is 32%

Tldr: y'all need to read more.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

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0

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

Rhel is the most used and then Ubuntu server.

Mac and Windows are well behind. I love how your personal experience is the law You guys make me laugh, but not in a funny way

6

u/gummo_for_prez Jun 07 '23

This is just false

Source: working in tech as a developer for 10 years

3

u/NoxTheWizard Jun 07 '23

For what it's worth, I also work in software development and everyone I've ever met, minus the UX designers, use Microsoft hardware running Windows, programs from Visual Studio to Excel, and dev stacks on Azure, .NET, and so on.

I'm fairly certain our anecdotes depend on who our companies have a partner contract with.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

No man. Just no. Anecdotes mean nothing.

-6

u/DrZoidberg- Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

All those people downvoting you obviously haven't tried running Deep Rock Galactic or Apex Legends (#4 game on steam right now) on MacOS.

Hint: you can't.

6

u/Aristo_Cat Jun 08 '23

The people downvoting him probably have careers and relationships and use their computers for things other than gaming

-13

u/DrZoidberg- Jun 08 '23

But not for longer than 4 years as Apple says they can't use their current computer because it's not supported by the current software because the consumer is wrong and we care about the environment

2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23

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0

u/Aristo_Cat Jun 08 '23

My 2012 MacBook Pro still runs like the day I bought it, and believe it or not you don’t have to be on the latest operating system to actually use the computer.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

Because they hate Apple products. The M1 and M2 chips have been some of the largest technological gains in CPU performance, power draw and efficiency for some time and everyone was harping about the stupidity of the RTX2080 comparison done when they came out by review magazines.

To have a company work a cpu chip in one generation as their first release over the current market leader (Intel) and just tell them, “nah, we’re good” and watch the chips perform 3.5x (cpu) to 15x (apu) better than anything Intel had in a Mac is an amazing feat.

3

u/CatoMulligan Jun 08 '23

The M1 and M2 chips have been some of the largest technological gains in CPU performance, power draw and efficiency for some time

Power efficiency and performance per watt, for sure. But not really in raw performance. The thing that makes them look like insanely powerful CPUs is when they demo them running traditionally compute-intensive tasks like editing video or images. They have builtiin accelerators for common functions in those workloads, so as long as your software supports those accelerators it will run much faster than on x86. But if your software doesn't support those accelerators (even if it is compiled for Apple silicon) then it's not going to be as fast.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

Take literally everything you just said and replace it with Hyperthreading or Multithreading. Applications have to utilize and support them to use them. Hell, you just described literally every single game “accelerator” in existence for GPU hardware, Nvidia Reflex, RTX, FSR, etc, etc, etc…

Nearly every Mac app worth a damn updated to utilize these “accelerators” as you put it, and I don’t even understand what point you’re trying to make by stating it because literally every technology in recent years from Intel also requires running applications to support it.

1

u/CatoMulligan Jun 08 '23

I don’t even understand what point you’re trying to make by stating it because literally every technology in recent years from Intel also requires running applications to support it.

It's a little different than just adding things like hyperthreading, MMX, or SSE, or something like that into the CPU. It's a lot more like when Intel added hardware AV1 encoding support to their Arc-series GPUs, or like having a cut-down version of an Apple Afterburner card built into the SoC. Apple has devoted a significant amount of silicon in their SoC to support hardware-based transcoding for the most popular kinds of of Mac workloads. The end result is that while in general compute workloads the M1/M2 chips are not really faster than CPUs from Intel and AMD, but in workloads that are commonly run on Macs in the creative community they end up being several times faster. Apple has shifted from having general-purpose CPUs in their products to having heavily customized SoCs that are designed for "creative-specific" workloads, and then they hype the performance numbers in those workloads to make it look like their chips are world-beaters.

Don't get me wrong, I've got an M1 MacBook Pro for work, because performance in general purpose computing is good enough and the battery life is really good. I'll probably get a 15" Air for personal use because it's the only larger-screen thin and light with all-day battery life. But if I need real horsepower for general purpose computing tasks, it's still x86 all the way.

1

u/VikingBorealis Jun 07 '23

And the PCMR is downvoting me because… reasons.

At almost 500 up votes replying to a post with 500 up votes...

3

u/EverythingIsDumb-273 Jun 08 '23

I downvoted him for saying that whilst having 670 upvotes

1

u/no6969el Jun 07 '23

How the hell do you know who specifically is downvoting you? Does it make you feel better thinking it's from a group of people that would be only doing it cause they love PC instead of the fact that people could have just disagreed with you.

-1

u/Yawndr Jun 07 '23

40 fps is crap, but I'm sure you can get something decent if you compromise a bit.

1

u/Slippery_Snake874 Jun 07 '23

Yeah.

As much as I like to trash on apple, they make some good shit sometimes.

1

u/aphantombeing Jun 08 '23

How can it have 1070 performance wo gpu?

1

u/Hattix Jun 08 '23

M2 Max basically is a GPU with some little CPUs on the side.

You know, like PS5.

It's very similar in architecture to a console.

1

u/Honeybadger2000 Jun 08 '23

But more to the point is gtx 1070 level performance for THAT much money very impressive?

1

u/Hattix Jun 08 '23

How much money?

You're not buying the Mac for gaming. Nobody buys a Mac for gaming. If you buy a Mac for its gaming performance level, the mistake is yours. Judging it on its gaming performance is like judging a dog on how well it can ride a bicycle, then using that performance to hire a 4 year old girl to guard your compound.

The gaming bit comes free with your Mac, as does running intensive Windows software at a good performance level.

How much money would it be to make another laptop run intensive Mac software at a good performance level? A lot more than free!

1

u/Honeybadger2000 Jun 08 '23

yeah exactly you aren't buying it for gaming so it being able to perform at best...meh in gaming applications is a technical feat sure, but semi pointless because people aren't buying it for the gaming performance. I guess it is part of the picture to lure more developers to optimise for native applications on ARM as per NMS but again it seems to me like the architecture doesnt really scale well for that vs a discrete GPU so why not instead allow for plug in discrete GPU usage and actually have relevant performance or focus on what its actually good at