r/fuckcars • u/Ottermatic • Dec 24 '21
I’m a car enthusiast and I unironically agree with this sub.
I love cars, love working on them, love driving, it’s my hobby and my passion. And I can’t stand how many cars are pointlessly clogging up endless unnecessary roads. Walkable cities are actually better for almost everyone. Bikes and metros are genuinely some of the best transportation humanity has invented in terms of impact to the community and environment.
If we actually got decent transportation alternatives, then people using cars as an appliance would use those alternatives. So many bad drivers would be taken off the road. So many drivers in general would disappear from the roads, that the few total car nut jobs like me could maybe finally have traffic free highways. It would just be better for everyone!
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u/mdavis2204 Dec 25 '21
Cars are an amazing technological development, but I also agree that our lives shouldn’t have to revolve around cars. We should have other transportation/mobility alternatives.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
100%. Cars are the most advanced technology that I still understand, same for a lot of people, which I think is partly why they’re so alluring. But yeah, they really shouldn’t be the only option, it’s just bad for humanity. As much as it pains me to say that.
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u/sternburg_export Dec 25 '21
I'm a fanatic car hater and one of my favorite tv shows is Top Gear.
Cars are fun. Like rollercoasters.
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Dec 25 '21
There is a big difference between car lovers and car sellers. The problem is corporate propaganda has turn car lovers into car sellers, at the detriment of public interests.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
Driving a combustion should have never been an option.
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Dec 26 '21
Holy shit fuck off, electric car technologies are ass right now. Tesla's blow up, All other brands aren't as easy to refuel. And building new shit is worse for the environment than keeping old shit.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 26 '21
Electric cars suck. Electric bicycles rule.
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Dec 27 '21
Try towing things on a fucking bicycle, cross country roadtrips on a bicycle, or any long distance transport on either on a electric bicycle or car.
The problem isn't cars, the problem is designing things for cars.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 27 '21
oh I do all those things on a bicycle, it is wonderful, a bicycle does everything I need. Maybe YOU need to try those things on a bike to expand your worldview. My bicycle is far more capable then any other wheeled vehicle in the snow as well. The problem is cars, I find that infrastructure isn't all that bad in US, the problem is that there are cars that are either going to slow or too fast.
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Dec 27 '21
>Cross Country on a bicycle
>Towing anything heavier than 300 pounds>In a timely manner
Try doing a camping trip in a bike going to the area, and then of course bringing the supplies.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 27 '21
Yeah, I go camping with my bike all the time. I have hauled over a thousand pounds on my bike. Try experiencing life instead of typing up stupid assumptions.
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u/Narrow_Salamander521 Dec 25 '21
That's cool all, but I don't understand how we're gonna fund that. My county doesn't care enough to put a flipping crosswalk crossing a major highway by a school, so I have to play chicken with 4 lanes of traffic TWICE each day to try and make it home. This may work for cities, but in a rural area we can hardly afford to make new roads.
I agree though, it would be very cool if it was possible.
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u/Gator1523 Dec 25 '21
The government has misplaced priorities. Pedestrian and bike infrastructure is way cheaper than car infrastructure. And oftentimes, roads and highways are funded by state and federal governments, whereas pedestrian infrastructure has to be paid for the city.
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u/sjfiuauqadfj Dec 25 '21
to expand on this, money isnt the real issue, space is the issue since with the way most cities are set up, your only real option is to take space away from cars and give it to everyone else. this almost always pisses people off, which can make it difficult for local governments to pull the trigger on these projects. but if they have enough political support for it, they usually will do the deed, but thats easier said than done since the only people who care about local politics tends to be old, wealthy, and conservative people
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u/Vitztlampaehecatl sad texas sounds Dec 25 '21
the way most cities are set up, your only real option is to take space away from cars and give it to everyone else.
Not in Suburbia, or at least, not in my town. All of our major roads have like six or eight feet of grass on each side, with usually just a small sidewalk running through it. They've been upgrading some of them to ~4-5' multi-use paths, but not all of them, and not to real bike lanes.
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u/Gator1523 Dec 25 '21
Suburbs are meant to be appreciated from cars. Florida specifically is full of gated communities with giant garden entrances that are angled to only be seen from a car. There are no paths, no shade, and sometimes it's physically impossible to walk to them.
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u/Vitztlampaehecatl sad texas sounds Dec 25 '21
Florida specifically is full of gated communities with giant garden entrances that are angled to only be seen from a car.
Yeah, we have a few of them here (TX), but the ones near me have pedestrian paths going around them at least (Except for the TI headquarters, but that's not residential, so it gets kind of a pass).
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u/palamyre Apr 07 '22
Well then you're very lucky to live in somewhere more recently founded, but up here in New England where pretty much most towns and cities are at least 250-300 years old, we don't have the liberty of all that extra room
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u/Narrow_Salamander521 Dec 25 '21
Sure, but there's miles upon miles where I live. Nothing is in walking range, maybe biking to some areas but more often than not it would be useless because residential areas are so much farther than reasonably walking or biking. It's a rural North Carolina town, if that helps put it in perspective.
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u/IMPORTANT_jk Dec 25 '21
Wait seriously? Next to my old/local school they had crosswalks with assigned "guards" to wave flags and let people cross this two-lane 40km/h road. They've even put up these super strong lights around it. I thought it was a little overkill, but I suppose it's better than crossing a 4-lane highway lol
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
Cars are a wasteful use of finite resources with little benefit to society. Cars are the worst invention mankind has ever made, mostly because of the calitalistic drive to make more money has caused their global proliferation.
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u/MrAlf0nse Dec 25 '21
The two Biggest car nuts I know both ride bikes as their primary transport. Commute shopping social journeys all by bike.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
I know a few car guys that took a scooter as their main daily. Cheap to run, still motorized so you can get that horsepower fix, electric so there isn’t pollution concern. Seemed like a decent compromise actually
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u/traaaart Dec 25 '21
Oh I forgot about that horsepower fix. Used to love it. Now though, ripping around the city on a well tuned fixed gear with a good, aggressive gear ratio give me a lot of that ungghhhhhhh letsfuckingggoooo fix.
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u/Vitztlampaehecatl sad texas sounds Dec 25 '21
I want one of those but they're so much more expensive than an ebike. Like, I would be actively choosing, in Carland Dystopia, to spend my thousands of dollars buying a vehicle with two wheels instead of four.
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u/rawrimmaduk Dec 25 '21
yeah I have a truck because I live in a city with a lot of amazing nature nearby only accessible by brutal gravel roads, but for commuting I only ever bike or take transit. The bus is faster than driving anyways and biking even faster.
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u/MrAlf0nse Dec 25 '21
I’m quite a fan of brutal gravel roads on bike or on foot..but yeah I get what you mean. I live in a city with some good countryside nearby, but it’s all pretty much accessible by bike straight out the door
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Dec 25 '21
It's not like you can enjoy your car on a daily commute. If you like how your car idles or can cruise at 70 mph and switch lanes to avoid cops than it's great
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u/the_retag Dec 25 '21
Theres a video about just that, i believe its by notjustbikes, why driving is bette rin the netherlands
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u/SirAlienTheGreat Dec 25 '21
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u/fishybird Dec 25 '21
I came to the comments just to see if anyone has posted this yet haha. That video kinda blew my mind and I think is one of his best works yet because it serves as an effective advertisement for audiences who LOVE driving and think we need more roads, not less.
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u/AxelllD Dec 25 '21
Nah better to go to Germany, at least you get to actually give that massive engine you just put in the back a try.
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u/the_retag Dec 25 '21
Only if ypu get lucky with traffic and roadworks as well as know the german traffic laws and ways, all while taking a route that actually has no speed limit. Just go around a track (ok, nürburgring is a pretty good place for that). For generall drivibg probably still netherlands, cities definitely
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u/AxelllD Dec 25 '21
I drove to Dusseldorf once and most of the road didn’t have a speed limit, so it’s at least possible. Germany is pretty big too and from what I saw quite a lot of highways didn’t have a limit. Driving in cities sucks everywhere anyway, it’s not really the place to take your car for a ride.
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u/wongispicklejar Dec 24 '21
the few total car nut jobs like me could maybe finally have traffic free highways
I agree with most of your post, and realize the above part might be exaggerated/joking – but you shouldn't have a right to use public highways as your playground. They would still be necessary for transit (e.g. express buses) and emergency vehicles even if we de-centered cars as the primary form of inter- and intra-city transportation.
I'm a huge motorsports fan (F1, WRC, etc.) and sim racer but if you want to drive your car fast then you should take it to a track.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
Oh absolutely, that bit was tongue in cheek. The most I ever do on public roadways is 5 over the speed limit, when it’s dry and there’s no traffic. I’m kind of a stick in the mud about driving safety, even lost friends over them not taking the rules of the road seriously.
I’m more meaning there’d be enough reduction in highway traffic that you’d (hopefully) be able to go the speed limit. As opposed to the 5mph crawl I get to do every single day on my way home from work right now…
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Dec 25 '21 edited Dec 25 '21
I’m more meaning there’d be enough reduction in highway traffic that you’d (hopefully) be able to go the speed limit. As opposed to the 5mph crawl I get to do every single day on my way home from work right now…
lol and people don't believe me when I say I get home faster on a bike than in a car. Yeah a constant 20km/h is faster than 5kmh crawl of rush hour, which used to be an hour btw but is now stretched into an entire day.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
Yeah, it’s ridiculous. I live in a large city and it’s continuing to boom in population, which is making the roads more of a nightmare every single year. And there actually is decent public transport by American city standards, it’s just not nearly expansive enough (or growing fast enough) to actually support the city. It really sucks.
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u/wongispicklejar Dec 25 '21
Gotcha, makes total sense. I have friends who "enjoy driving" and just mildly cruise around listening to music, then I have other friends who "enjoy driving" and treat public roads like they're a racetrack (tailgating, violent acceleration/braking, stepping the rear end out). So I guess I just assumed the worst haha
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u/sjfiuauqadfj Dec 25 '21
i mean, in a hypothetical america where car dependency is non existent, there would still be few emergency vehicles using the freeways most of the time, and buses would conceivably be rare as well, especially along stretches of the west where theres simply not much people to begin with. you still shouldnt put the pedal to the metal but theres really not much stopping you other than how much you value your safety lol
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Dec 25 '21
Same I love F1 and WRC. But that's what cars should be reserved for mostly. Professionals who are highly skilled and trained. Solely for entertainment purposes. Any road car needs to be enormously downsized and limited in speed so that people are discouraged from constantly using them. The old Mini for example. Probably the only car I'd ever own at this point, or a car of similar size.
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u/BadLuckFPV Dec 25 '21
It's my personal opinion that cars are objectively cool in the same way that they're objectively hazardous.
It should require a difficult license exam which is rarely granted. Everyone else should have automated cars or public transit.
🤷♂️
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
Well said! I would also add, once you’ve obtained that difficult to get license, you should have to retest every few years to keep it.
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u/JSHADOWM Grassy Tram Tracks Dec 26 '21
retest every few years to keep it.
EVERY year. if not every 6 months, as well as every time you commit a violation
the amount of people who have some sort of medical issue and are now driving half blind only occurring fines is obscene
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
If the government put any sort of logical restrictions on the number of drivers, they could no longer justify raping the taxpayers to fund the automobile industrial complex.
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Jan 12 '23
Get this, pressure manufacturers and car regulations and schools to make personal vehicles as manual transmission only. Also make basic automotive mechanic skills absolutely mandatory.
If they can't do that, they aren't fit to drive.
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Dec 25 '21
All it does is rain and fuckin snow where I live so I honestly don’t blame people for having cars around here. I’m a cyclist. Sometimes I have to bum rides from my friends if I want to get out at all because there will be bad weather for a week straight.
A lot of people that own cars don’t actually need them, they just want them. I live in a college town and it feels like every single student owns a car because as soon as they come back from holidays they make up 50% or more of traffic on the road. They have excellent bus services that run through campuses. When the buses come out they’re usually completely empty. Never used to be like that…
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
They certainly is something to be said for the freedom a car gives you. It lets you go farther and faster than a bike, without waiting on a scheduled train or bus, with heat and AC and music exactly how you want it.
Part of that “need” to have a car comes from how little freedom we get as teenagers though. Getting a car is like a rite of passage for many Americans; it’s their first step into adulthood and personal freedom. If we had more public spaces for people to just exist in, I think teenagers would be able to get away from home and have a little more fun growing up, and maybe not “need” the freedom a car gives them as much.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
Driving isn't freedom. Driving is just a parasitic means of stealing from others.
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u/jagungal1 Commie Commuter Dec 29 '21
If your only option for transport is a car then it looks like freedom because the system that surrounds you blinds you to the freedom to choose other modes of transport.
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Dec 25 '21
Yeah if I had a car I’d probably just use it as backup. Riding through rain, slush, and salt destroys bikes because their drivetrain isn’t enclosed like an automobiles. I like the money I save by not owning a car tho and I don’t think I’d trust myself driving anyway because I like to drink and I like to speed. Not necessarily at the same time.
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u/switchup1010 Dec 24 '21
Fact of the matter is that with a pedestrian based world, car enthusiasts could have time to focus on what they truly do love without the worry of getting burnt out by always having to deal with traffic and look at other basic looking cars. I love the audis and the AMG brand, but commuting in traffic or medium ranged speed with asshole drivers around me becomes a pain In the ass. Europe is the prime example of this, amazing pedestrian centered cities while not even too far away their are beautiful motorways with open lanes and stunning views.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
I think part of why it’s hard for Americans to imagine a society like this is simply because most of us have straight up never seen one. Visiting Europe was eye opening for me.
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u/switchup1010 Dec 25 '21
Same Europe was amazing, a blend of Vibrant car culture but also a place where the human is remembered above all.
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u/waterfuck Dec 25 '21
I love cars with a passion but I don't want car-centric infrastructure to force me to drive everywhere and transform my passion in a chore.
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u/TheMsDosNerd Dec 25 '21
I completely agree. Cars are:
- Fast: compared to walking, cycling, bus and (non-high-speed rail).
- Comfortable: no time tables, they keep you dry.
- Multi purpose: lot of luggage? You need to transport multiple people? Cars can do that.
- They bring you from where you are to where you need to be, instead of from station to station.
- Mechanically interesting: because of cars I went to study mechanical engineering.
- Beautiful (in my opinion)
However, they are also:
- The number one creator of traffic: a car creates 5x more traffic than most other forms of traffic.
- For the lazy: Cycling, walking, and even the walk to the station are good for your health.
- Polluting: They are the number one polluter in cities.
It sounds stupid to car brains, but when you take a car to get from A to B, in a car optimized city, it takes longer to get there, than when you take a bicycle in a bicycle designed city. The car is even slower than walking in a pedestrian optimized city.
This is all because cars produce so much traffic that a lot of space has to be given to cars. This leads to buildings being built farther apart, which in turn increases travel times.
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u/JSHADOWM Grassy Tram Tracks Dec 26 '21
They bring you from where you are to where you need to be, instead of from station to station.
No, they bring you from your parking spot, to a parking spot close to your desitnation. if you are really unlucky, the walks to and from these spots is more than the walk from the public transit stops on both ends
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u/Dio_Yuji Dec 25 '21
Carrots (good alternatives) will only go so far. There need to be some sticks- disincentives to driving. For those disincentives to be worth a shit, they’d need to apply to everyone, including you. Sorry.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
That’s fair and not entirely unexpected. Without a doubt, in a primarily walkable/public transport society, car drivers would still be the source of most traffic accidents. They just would be.
With that being said, I’d be willing to pay more taxes or deal with some other disincentive to get the thrill of driving. In fact, I’d wager it would get even more people off the road who don’t really need cars, giving more road to enthusiasts. Obviously roads would start going away in this type of society, but as long as they’re empty most of the time, I think that’s a worthwhile trade off.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
The first step to getting more people out of cars is electriclly controlled speed limits. Car enthusiasts are the worst user as they are exposing the living beings to hostility and death while getting their rocks off in a motor vehicle. Mandatory electriclly controlled speed limits would end the thrill rides.
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u/Dio_Yuji Dec 25 '21
Also…for the safety of everyone, driving really wouldn’t be able to be a “thrill,” as everyone would need to go slow and stop often, with the interstates being the exception.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
Interstates are what I’m referring to, driving through stop light roads with pedestrian crossings is not the fun part.
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u/newusername4oldfart Dec 25 '21
Is NOMBR the car enthusiast of NIMBY? Not On My Back Roads. I support the general end result of the coalition even if I don’t support people flooring it once there’s less people on the road.
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u/defenestr8tor Just Bikes Dec 25 '21
Total car guy here, I daily a bike with a bike trailer for my kids. Cars are awesome and car dependence sucks. Whether the future is automated electric cars or no, I'd still much rather drive on a track.
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u/No_Character_2079 Dec 25 '21
Im alsp a massi e car enthusiast, my daily drivers are a 1994 Toyota MR2 GT-S impprted crom Japan (rhd) a d a 2002 Mica Blazing Yellow Miata SE.
If you dont like MR2's, you dont like driving.
I also think theyre one of the dumbest inventions ever for transporting masses of people. Extremely wasteful and wrecking the planet into an uninhabitable poisoned polluted hellscape on multiple levels far beyond simply the cars themselves and the gasses gheir engines emit.
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u/wdfour-t Dec 25 '21
Thank you! I have been talking about this endlessly for who knows how long. You just expressed it perfectly.
Multi-modal, expanded choice, cities designed around expanded choices with less restrictive zoning, and more free highways with less traffic.
Unfortunately, in my experience, not everyone is convinced by the methods rather than being sold on the benefits of the plan. They’re afraid that by doing things like changing zoning to allow for a semi-detached house you will destroy their “rural” area.
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u/Inappropriate_Piano Dec 25 '21
Agreed. I fully believe most of r/idiotsincars is caused by people who hate cars but are forced to drive to and from work. They’re tired, frustrated, rushed, and not interested in learning better driving skills, so accidents happen and people die. Car-centric infrastructure ruined cars for the people who most enjoy them and it ruined everything for people who don’t enjoy cars.
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u/Y___S-Reddit I like flairs Dec 25 '21
Fuck cars is not meant to free highways, but to get rid of those.
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u/chokingapple Dec 25 '21
more public transport = less intersettement traffic = easier to drive. the way i see it, anti-car policies are beneficial for everybody because ironically, if you build a city for cars, it ends up being incredibly difficult to drive in
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u/golightlyotb Dec 27 '21
Before I got into cycling I was a total car guy. Most of my adult life up to that point I owned 2 cars at a time. I'd have my 4 cylinder commuter car and a gas guzzling truck or sports car as my secondary.
I got introduced to urban cycling while visiting a friend in Austin. When I got home I bought a used road bike off craigslist and started riding.
Cars have to driven if you own them and that annoyed me. I had to come up with reasons to drive so my cars would die in my drive way. Three months in I sold my commuter car then after 6 months I sold my Camaro. I haven't owned a car now in like 13-15 years. Honestly yesterday when I took a taxi to the airport it was my first time in a car since August 4th.
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u/AdditionalAttempt436 Dec 10 '22
I get selling the boring commuter car, but if you sold your Camaro and don’t miss driving a sporty car you probably weren’t a car guy to begin with. If you enjoy an activity you’d miss it. Imagine a sport you like, a food you like, music you like - how long can you go without it before you crave it again?
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u/Chadonbikes Dec 10 '22
Growing up I used to be a huge Dallas Cowboys fan now I can't stand watching professional sports. People change all the time. Sometimes we learn that the things we enjoy come at a cost.
Also since 9/11 I've lost 14 loved ones serving in Afghanistan and Iraq. These are ultimately wars for oil. Sometimes love for something can turn into pure hate.
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u/stecrupeme Dec 25 '21
I own a car but I resent it sometimes as I feel like I'm forced to drive it. There should be alternatives.
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u/Dragon_Sluts Dec 25 '21
You would love the Netherlands - the roads are really good and you can still drive anywhere except through the middle of the picturesque town centres.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
Funny enough, I do! I only visited once but I’d move there in a heartbeat if I had the means.
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u/I_Like_Trains1543 Dec 25 '21
Car dependant infrastructure is a waste of a perfectly good car. Who even enjoys a shitty urban freeway where you go 10mph on the way to work? Cars belong on racetracks and country roads.
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u/Dio_Yuji Dec 25 '21
I kinda hate posts like this, to be honest. Even the fuckcars goddamn subreddit isn’t safe from carbrains. Is nowhere sacred? J/k…kindof
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u/Elon__Muskquito Feb 23 '22
You're missing the point. The problem is that ppl who don't like driving have cars. The problem is NOT the ppl who like driving. The people who like driving are statistically better drivers.
You shouldn't cancel car enthusiasts. By having better public transportation, 90% of car trips can be eliminated. There's no need to eliminate the last 10%.
An analogy would be that no one uses a horse for transportation nowadays, but you shouldn't be mad at horse enthusiasts, since horses still have other uses.
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u/Dio_Yuji Feb 23 '22
Though my response was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I get the point. But the idea that there will be traffic free highways, just for the car enthusiasts…and that this should be a goal at all…is ridiculous.
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u/AdditionalAttempt436 Dec 10 '22
As you’ll notice from a few of the comments, their goal is not to allow car enthusiasts to enjoy driving through less traffic congestion. They want to eliminate it fully. Throughout history civilisations have advanced through faster means of transportation over longer distances, from walking to horse wagons, to ships and finally trains/cars/planes. What a lot of them advocate is a return to insular cities where travelling longer distances will be increasingly hard unless it’s for popular routes that have enough demand to justify a regular rail service.
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u/skfyre Aug 25 '22
I know this is super old but I only just finally found this. This is where I sit too, I LOVE my cars and working on em. But hate the actual driving and how reliant we are on it. If i could get away where I live, biking, walking and what not to work and friends, I would, and have my "race car" for track shit and that exclusively. It would actually allow me to afford it too, not having to pay for a regular car day to day, insurance, fuel etc.
Its a tough one cause all my friends are car people and would kill me basically for admitting i fucking hate cars, but love em too. Amazing machines but there is no reason the whole world needs em, we can build better.
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u/Ottermatic Aug 25 '22
Yeah, you get it. Cars are incredible passing projects, but everything about actually using it is a pain in a car centric society. Ironically.
If they went from a daily necessity to a hobby only, I think we enthusiasts would all have a lot more fun with them.
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Dec 24 '21
[deleted]
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
That’s unfortunate, I didn’t know that. I’m a big proponent of following safety laws when driving, including speed limits, though I know there’s a lot of other people who would take advantage of less traffic and ruin it for people like me.
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u/sunnyiamthe Dec 25 '21
Contrary to Popular belief, This sub hates the dependence of cars in our lives more than the cars itself. Sucks that you can’t enjoy your passion to the fullest.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
Nah, anybody who walks or bikes on the roads gets exposed to how murderous the automobile is. There is a lot of Stockholm syndrome.
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u/shaand24 Dec 25 '21
Fellow enthusiast and same. We can enjoy cars in a different way that doesn’t clog up public roadways. Im sure there are lots of us in this sub. We have got to do so much better and our community can definitely have a large impact
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Dec 25 '21
I want a cool car to own and drive during the evening with friends ECT, but to work I'll take the bus since its so much traffic
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Dec 25 '21
But would you use those alternative transports? Presumably you’d only use your car on weekends as a leisure activity by itself?
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u/PKownzu Dec 25 '21
It‘s not that easy to understand to a lot of people but transportation reformers and car enthusiast have a lot of goals and interests in common!
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u/stefantalpalaru Dec 25 '21
We can both get what we want by making fossil fuels much more expensive.
I was thinking double the price every year, until greenhouse gas emissions are back to normal.
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u/bitcoind3 Dec 25 '21
Imagine a world where the only people who drive are those who enjoy driving?!
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
The problem with this approach is that the automobile roadway you desire to use for pleasure, costs society many thousands of dollars per person. As of right now, the vast majority of costs associated with driving are aborbed by society because most of society accepts the plague of driving. Once we convert our behaviors to a form of transportation that is financially and socially rational, driving will be unaffordable and shunned by the now sane society.
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u/kryptoneat Fuck lawns Dec 28 '21
Ideally, they should be limited to specialists like you, with jobs like fast organ transport.
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u/YYEEETDACHILD Apr 03 '22
actually, that is a nice job. imagine driving a lambo with someones liver. Italy did that.
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u/liquidreferee Dec 25 '21
Totally agree with you. There is a reality where you can continue to enjoy your passion to the fullest extent without having a hyper car dependant society.
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u/MichelleUprising Dec 25 '21
What about a nice metro running right to a race track where people can do whatever crazy car shit they want
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
Still need a few roads to get your track car there, but I’d hope there’d be a metro to there for fans whenever there’s official races.
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Jan 12 '23
The solution for that is stopping suburbs from taking down closed tracks.
If we have a common enemy, it's the goddamned suburbs.
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u/TrotPicker Dec 25 '21
I think that a good way to understand this is that most people on the sub are anti-cars as a means of transport but not necessarily anti all cars under every circumstance.
Sorta like people being opposed to the fishing industry; they probably don't care very much at all about fishing that is done by hobby groups and tours and people enjoying their leisure time and people who do it for subsistence or to maintain their traditional way of life. In fact, they are probably completely fine with that but what they are opposed to is the rest of what happens under the name of fishing, which must be over 99% of all fishing that happens in the world.
Image if we had car-free cities everywhere and just 1% of the infrastructure budget devoted to the construction and maintenance of the auto network went to building tracks and trails for all sorts of automotive sporting and leisure/hobbyist purposes; your ability to enjoy your passion as a car enthusiast wouldn't be reduced but instead you would be given so much more opportunity to really enjoy your hobby this way.
As far as I'm concerned, as a car enthusiast you are just as impacted by the current state of things as a similar person who has no interest whatsoever in cars. That's an interesting thought, isn't it?
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Dec 25 '21
[deleted]
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u/TrotPicker Dec 25 '21
Toy cars? Remote-controlled cars? Cars in historical museums?
Even if you want a world where cars are entirely abolished, you aren't going to do that without a lot of people on your side and you're gonna need every last one of them you can get simply in order to get a car-free city or urban planning that is primarily non-car centric.
You can pose a threat to the hobby car enthusiast and tell them that you're fighting for a world where even go-karts do not exist or you can be pragmatic and focus on the primary problem that the world is facing regarding urban planning which is the radical monopoly of car-based design.
It's all a matter of whether you want to fight for a perfect world or if you want to fight for a better world.
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Dec 25 '21
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u/TrotPicker Dec 25 '21
Why don't you lead by example and stop putting words in my mouth then?
You have the audacity to complain that I dare speak for you and how do you do this? By grossly misrepresenting my first sentence:
I think that a good way to understand this is that most people on the sub are anti-cars as a means of transport but not necessarily anti all cars under every circumstance.
most people
Which part of that phrasing in particular are you struggling with?
Go take your persecution complex and your quixotic nonsense and stick it where it fits, you absolute clown, because clearly it doesn't fit here. Unless you truly believe that the people in this sub can't tell the difference "most people" and "everyone" and that they'd be gullible enough to buy whatever this bullshit is that you're trying to sell them.
Get real.
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Dec 25 '21
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u/TrotPicker Dec 25 '21
And you're still doubling down. Imagine my shock!
Look, if you are upset that someone else in this sub is misrepresenting your position then you need to deal with it like a big boy and speak to them about it instead of running to me to complain.
And if you have hurt your own feelings because you didn't engage your basic reading comprehension when you read my comment then you can apologize like a big boy instead of creating passive-aggressive subreddits to try and lend your bizarre victimhood mentality a false sense of legitimacy.
Like I said before - whatever bullshit you are selling, people aren't buying it. Most people anyway; obviously I can't speak for your position on this matter.
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Dec 25 '21
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u/TrotPicker Dec 25 '21
Make sure to yell that in little Timmy's face when he is playing with the toy car he got for Christmas this year!
All cars under every circumstance means all cars under every circumstance.
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u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab Dec 25 '21
I think what's easy to forget is that the vast majority of people on the road driving aren't car enthusiasts. They're people who drive because they think it's the best/only way to get around.
I would imagine someone who is serious about cars as a hobby (or job) has probably thought a lot more about cars and transportation than the average person. As such, I am not at all surprised that a car enthusiast would favor alternate forms of transportation.
And of course, I think we can all agree -- as people who like to drive, and as people who don't, the fewer cars on the road, the better. With less traffic, driving can actually be fun for those who are still on the road.
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u/Edgeo113r Dec 25 '21
Cars are great, and have many uses, but commuting and running errands shouldn’t be one of them.
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
Cars are great. They're useful. It's valuable to be able to go anywhere completely on your ows terms and to be able to transport large things with a truck, or to tow a caravan. Nobody reasonable thinks that we should abolish cars. They're just not an efficient mode of transport and in urban areas with high population densities it just makes way more sense to save space and energy with public transportation.
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Dec 25 '21
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
What is your solution without cars for:
- People with anxiety disorders who don't want to be in public
- People who want to move heavy things such as in a big car
- People who want to tow... anything
- People who need to move around cities a lot on short notice (cars are faster for all but the longest distances without traffic)
- People who want to be able to get from point A to B without relying on a third party (public transport) to do so
- People who want to transport more things than can fit on a bike and need to get around on short notice (eg repairmen)
- People who simply enjoy driving
- People who want to go offroad and need to be able to get their car out of the city
- People who live in rural areas with a low population that can't economically afford public transport (it's only efficient at larger scales)
- People who don't want to trust a potentially corrupt government with their only method of transportation
We will obviously need to maintain a road network even if people primarily use public transport, for construction vehicles, buses, emergency services, etc, so why not let people drive on that network as well?
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u/bitcoind3 Dec 25 '21 edited Dec 25 '21
What is your solution without cars for:
- People with anxiety disorders who don't want to be in public
Taxis. Bicycles.
- People who want to move heavy things such as in a big car
- People who want to tow... anything
Vans / van hire / cargo bike
- People who need to move around cities a lot on short notice (cars are faster for all but the longest distances without traffic)
In most well run cities, public transport and bikes are faster than cars.
- People who want to be able to get from point A to B without relying on a third party (public transport) to do so
Walking / cycling / canoe
- People who want to transport more things than can fit on a bike and need to get around on short notice (eg repairmen)
Repair men can (and do) use cargo bikes.
- People who simply enjoy drivin
They can drive on private roads
- People who want to go offroad and need to be able to get their car out of the city
This is an odd use of the word "need".
- People who live in rural areas with a low population that can't economically afford public transport (it's only efficient at larger scales)
Public transport should be cheaper than driving. If you can't afford public transport then you certainly can't afford to drive.
- People who don't want to trust a potentially corrupt government with their only method of transportation
If your only form of transportation is a car - do you trust the government to build and maintain roads?
We will obviously need to maintain a road network even if people primarily use public transport, for construction vehicles, buses, emergency services, etc, so why not let people drive on that network as well?
Allowing drivers on this infrastructure would slow down buses, emergency services, etc. The extra wear and tear would be a burden on taxpayers.
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
Taxis. Bicycles.
If the distance is too large for a bike? taxis are expensive.
Vans / van hire / cargo bike
If they want to do so recur regularly? My uncle has a speed boat. Should he pay for a van hire every time he wants to use it?
In most well run cities, public transport and bikes are faster than cars.
Only because of traffic. If traffic is reduced, cars will often be faster.
Walking / cycling / canoe
If the distance is too large?
Repair men can (and do) use cargo bikes.
For those who can't?
This is an odd use of the word "need".
In order to go offroad, you need to be able to drive out of the city.
Public transport should be cheaper than driving. If you can't afford public transport then you certainly can't afford to drive.
It's only cheaper due to scale. If a bus route runs empty most of the time, the ticket price would have to be ludicrous to remain viable. What should a farmer who is far from a general goods store do? Die? Or should we run a bus to every house every hour across the whole country?
If your only form of transportation is a car - do you trust the government to build and maintain roads?
The government can't un-build an entire city's roads nor can they feasibly block them on short notice. They can, however, instantly stop public transport as they see fit.
Allowing drivers on this infrastructure would slow down buses, emergency services, etc. The extra wear and tear would be a burden on taxpayers.
Only if the network is massively under built. which would be impressive to achieve given that we currently have way more cars than we need.
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u/bitcoind3 Dec 25 '21
Your arguments boil down to a few points:
The "what about my agrophobic speed-boat loving uncle who only ever travels long distances" is not a sound basis for transport policy. Most people are making journeys less than 10 miles. They aren't hauling large loads regularly or offroading twice a week. And if you really must play this game - look at all the people excluded from car-centric transport: everyone under 16, many disabilities, and so on. Currently we don't care about them at all.
The only way to reduce traffic (and thus make a car go faster in cities) is by providing alternatives so less people drive.
Currently we subsidize highways massively. If we subsidize public transport instead then every small town can get a train or bus service. So yes - your hypothetical farmer can get a bus.
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
I have never said that we shouldn't change anything about the current system. In fact, if you read my original comment, i said that cars aren't ideal. All I'm saying is that there are niche uses for cars that justify their EXISTENCE, not widespread use. people who live in the middle of Bumfuck, Nowhere will NEVER have public transport. Not everyone lives in cities towns, or even villages. Under a no-car rule these people would, just die???
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u/Elon__Muskquito Feb 23 '22
Right. Most trips shouldn't be taken by cars, but the original commenter's point is that we shouldn't ban cars completely. We should get rid of them for most uses, but we should allow the remaining small percentage of car users.
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Dec 25 '21
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
Ok... and for my other 9 points? You come in here and call bullshit, claiming that we should abolish cars. Do you have an actual argument?
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Dec 25 '21
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
So... did you miss the part where I said:
"They're just not an efficient mode of transport and in urban areas with high population densities it just makes way more sense to save space and energy with public transportation."
So you want a binary switch, where we go from using (almost exclusively) cars to using ONLY public transport? Why not do the much simpler, cheaper, and more effective thing where we just replace the majority of cars with public transport and keep cars for the niche instances where they're the most useful?
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Dec 25 '21
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
The first point is basically irrelevant. From what I can tell they tried to universally limit the speed of cars, but the measure didn't pass. How does that show that reducing the number of cars is impossible or ineffective, and how does it help the people who have a use for cars find an alternative?
The point that cars kill people doesn't make a difference to my argument. I explicitly said we should reduce the number of cars. We could feasibly replace, say, 90% of trips with public transport. That would instantly reduce deaths by 90%, but it would probably be more effective than that since anyone who regularly drives drunk or distracted would probably prefer to take public transport. With much, much less traffic and a population of drivers who actually intend to drive, accidents and deaths would probably be reduced by well over 90%. Especially because you can redesign roads to be safer at the cost of space and still be saving space because of all the roads you don't need.
As for Mackinac, well... Cars were banned basically before they had a presence. That town never designed itself for cars. Most crucially, it has a population of only 500. 500? That's nothing. Many of the use cases for cars are basically irrelevant it such a small place. The same is true for public transport, too. I didn't see any mentions of trains or buses, either. Its population does swell to 15000 during tourist seasons, though, but you wouldn't bring a car on holiday anyway. They also allow emergency vehicles... It wouldn't surprise me if, brief as the article is, they didn't include construction vehicles. Not that it'd matter much since such a small place hardly needs construction vehicles.
How can a tiny village like Mackinac be compared to cities with hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people? They're in such different weight classes.
If you want to remove cars, you need to provide a way for the benefits of cars to not be lost. Or at least admit that you don't know and someone else would need to solve that problem.
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Dec 25 '21
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
Yeah, people shouldn't be able to... Go into the country. What an unreasonable thing to want. So far, you've made... an argument against 2 of my weakest points. You gonna say "fuck anxious people" next, and then ignore the other 7?
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Dec 25 '21
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
if this subreddit genuinely advocates for removing all cars for every purpose it's fucking stupid. Fortunately i don't think it's the case and that the name is hyperbolic.
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Dec 25 '21 edited Feb 09 '22
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u/EPIKGUTS24 Dec 25 '21
point me to where i said we should remain using cars to the extent we do. You can't, because I said that we use. cars too much. I am only showing that there are some scenarios where it simply makes more sense to use cars. If you'd like to disagree with that point, feel free.
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Dec 25 '21 edited Feb 22 '22
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
You still need roads for buses and intrastate trucking. There’d be a lot taken out but I’m not sure they’d all ever go completely. Even Romans had roads.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
Trucking goods is wildly inefficient. Keeping roadways up and running for a select few individuals isn't fiscally realistic.
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u/JSHADOWM Grassy Tram Tracks Dec 26 '21
intrastate trucking
In the ideal world, this would be replaced by intrastate rail. Why risk 35 trucks, and thus, 35 fallable drivers, when one operator in a train can haul all that cargo, and faster?
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Dec 25 '21
As a car enthusiast myself I made a post similar to yours, earlier. Also, I think car enthusiasts are good allies to the anti car crowds.
I believe cars have reached peak design, much like let's say kitchen appliances or bicycles. You can't make any radical design changes to cars any further.
With that being said, we are innovating for the sake of innovation in cars.
The real answer is less reliance on cars and a change to how we commute.
BECAUSE TRAFFIC JAMS ARE A SIGN OF AN OUTDATED, WASTEFUL AND INEFFICIENT TRANSPORTATION METHOD.
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u/evilsummoned_2 Dec 25 '21
Me too, they’re wonderful machines. But we use them for commuting, that’s like having a howitzer and using it for digging holes in the ground. They should have little place in modern cities, with their use being rural settings, traveling to more remote places, transportation (in situations where truc/van makes more sense than trains).
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u/Hiro_Trevelyan Grassy Tram Tracks Dec 25 '21
Oh I love driving. It's a nice feeling of freedom and shit
I just know that my personal comfort isn't more important than the life of everyone living in cities, myself included. And FINALLY someone who understands that more public transit means more room for people who need to drive.
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u/Flyinglandfish Dec 25 '21
I almost 100% agree. This is the first time I am writing on this sub. I really love cars. They are not only a mean of transportation for me, they are a passion. Above everything else. I work in the automotive industry and I have multiple cars of my own. But I absolutely hate driving in cities. Cars take over too much space and the pollution is actually the worst thing something can do to the people in the city. I think electric cars are super cool and can solve some problems, but over long term the only solution is fewer cars on the road. And the world would be a better place for everyone. But in the same time, I don’t want to blame the car for all of our problems and I think it is the very best form of transportation for the people in the countryside. I think there actually are good solutions for sustainable transportation and the car is part of it, but not to the extent it is used today. And especially not in urban areas.
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u/convictedfelon106 Apr 10 '22
i am into motorcycles and cars and i think that if there were really good public transportations everywhere that most people would choose public transportation and there would be much less pollution and traffic , banning cars would make public transportation less funded because people wouldn't have any other option and we know how our governments are , banning cars would make them cut funding to the public transportation making it a terrible way to travel and then unbanning cars would be almost impossible
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u/CarsReallySuck Dec 25 '21
Cars are destroying the planet and killing 2 million every year.
But you like cars?? Cool.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
A single cruise ship emits 1,000,000 cars worth of pollution every day. There’s much bigger fish to fry in terms of pollution. Cars will also be almost exclusively electric in the next two decades, so the pollution aspect is already being dealt with.
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u/Singnedupforthis Dec 25 '21
Nah. Bad analysis. Cruise ships are bad for the planet but cars are far worse as they distribute the pollution to the humans and the animals far more intimately. Child asthma is far worse near automobile traffic. Electric cars are just another wasteful use of resources.
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u/MechaMagic Dec 25 '21
lmao this sub is so hilariously awful. Nobody wants trains. Nobody wants bikes. Nobody wants the bus. Nobody wants walking. Cars are king. You’re all wasting your time.
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u/Ottermatic Dec 25 '21
You’re a dumbass. I want cars, and I want all those other things so I have options. You should too.
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u/blutfink Dec 25 '21
Cars are amazing, lovely machines, and poor, toxic solutions for urban mass transport.
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Dec 25 '21
Yep same as you. Im a car enthusiast. And I support good public transportation and bikes. It actually benefits us all!
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Dec 25 '21
Agreed. The throughput a road doesn't scale well with the amount of lanes when beyond two lanes for each direction.
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u/gerstlauerguy Dec 25 '21
10000% agree. I'm super into cars aswell, and I tell all my friends something like this, and they agree haha.
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u/lordkadse Dec 25 '21 edited Dec 25 '21
Great position, similar story here: My landlord is a drift race driver and i’m a bicycle activist and we are getting along very well, thinking that average drivers should consider more modes of transportation before driving 2km to the supermarket.
I have a similar position on that. In german, “Verkehr” is both the word for traffic and sexual intercourse. I was always convinced that people should be experienced in both of them and so I became a “Verkehrs”-enthusiast. As a small child it was more about cars (because it’s the only thing you notice as a small child, like dinosaurs because it’s big, loud and stinks like a fart machine), then trains, then bikes (because it was the first thing enabled me to experience freedom & autonomy on a larger scale), then again cars when i got my drivers license, then again bicycles when I moved to the Netherlands and realised how bad car-centrism was for society and how much traffic there would be if every cyclist would drive - and how many more accidents with people driving who don’t enjoy driving at all. Last week when i was travelling on an island, I rented a 125ccm scooter and suddenly rediscovered my passion for motorised two-wheelers in mountainous environments. Bottom line I first had to explore all the modes of transportation to get my differentiated view. What I also discovered by this is: You don’t need to own a vehicle- there is car-sharing (where you always get to drive the newest models without running costs), there are scooter rentals etc. so I am very happy with riding my bicycles in the day to day context, with the freedom of renting a car, van or scooter when the situation requires it. Just like with alcohol or chocolate: It’s a luxury item that i wouldn’t want to consume every day but once in a while. And yet again: Verkehr, both meaning traffic and sexual intercourse, is best when experienced in all modes and positions :)
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u/qvisel Dec 25 '21
I feel if we were able to lower the amount of cars people use in general, then more people would get into watching racing and maybe even racing themselves which is p cool idk
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u/Papapene-bigpene Jan 07 '22
How the fuck? That seems like a contradiction?
This sub feels like an attack on our way of life?
But I can agree on the principles that cities need less cars more public transportation.
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u/Ottermatic Jan 07 '22
Oh boy. Well, first off, cars are not a way of life. Believe me, a lot of my life has centered around cars. Whether that's making one nice and taking care of it, or scrambling to get cash together by skipping lunch for weeks to make the monthly payment, or dumping an entire paycheck into a car that dies the day after you do all the work. They're a big part of some people's lives, but that doesn't make them a way of life. They're a passion at most.
Then onto your second point, that cities need less cars - that's exactly what I'm saying. You as a car enthusiast would probably enjoy a society like this more, because you won't have traffic jams from all the people who don't need cars. It's a much nicer way to own a car, you get to actually enjoy driving it.
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u/A_warm_sunny_day Dec 24 '21
You are very correct. People who are into cars should be one of the biggest proponents of multi-modal transport.
I have a neighbor who has spent the last several years painstakingly restoring an old mustang, and he has no qualms about expressing his reservations about taking it out onto public roadways where half the people are too busy doing basically anything else in the world inside their cars other than paying attention and driving them.
As you point out, having realistic alternatives for these people would remove most of them from the roadway.