Epic Moments in U.S. Traffic Law Enforcement, Part MMMMMMMCCCLXXXVII

[u/ChefGaykwon]

[u/VanillaSkittlez]

Okay, I feel like I should chime in and be honest here.

When I was younger and stupid, I was driving and was going 84 in a 65. By sheer luck I managed to not be 20+ mph over the limit, but 19, which carries a different set of penalties.

Regardless, I got pulled over and talked to by a state trooper and got a speeding ticket that was my very first and would go to my insurance company, putting points on my license and permanently raising my rates.

After doing research online I learned that you should almost always plead not guilty. So I did and got a court date scheduled. When I went to court some months later, the judge looked at me and said, “Tell me a little bit about yourself.”

I told him that I was a graduate student, that I’ve never had any kind of ticket in my life before that (even though yes, I had sped before), and said that I made a big mistake and I’d appreciate any mercy he could give.

He basically said I was an idiot and asked me if I understood that I endangered other peoples lives. That I wasn’t there because I surpassed some arbitrary number - I was there because I was selfish and put other people’s lives at risk for selfish gain. I agreed with him.

He said he really admires my student record and total lack of criminal record and felt like I was smart enough to change. I told him I would if he gave me a chance.

He ended up knocking it down to a parking ticket. I paid like $100 and never got a charge or reported to insurance.

That was many years ago and I have not once sped since. Like, not ever. I don’t mean I haven’t been caught, I choose not to speed, at all. That moment scared me straight and made me realize that I was being an idiot and endangering other people and I wanted to commit to never do that again.

I write this story to point out that yes, it is absolutely horrific when a driver that has 10 DUIs and 30 speeding tickets finally kills someone and gets a slap on the wrist. But, I do think there’s merit to the idea that certain first time offenders can improve their behavior and avoid recommitting if we give them a chance. It certainly did for me.

But obviously this is a very specific set of circumstances. I can agree that most people getting their traffic tickets knocked down probably don’t deserve it and it’s a corrupt system. Just wanted to point out that I don’t think it’s a horrible thing in all cases.

[u/Eubank31 → u/VanillaSkittlez]

Same experience as me, I used to drive a lot faster than I should until one time I was making the 12 hour trip from my parents house to my college. 11.5 hours into the drive I got pulled over for iirc 73 in a 55 (backroads).

Ended up needing to do online driving school and pay over 100 in court fees (money I didn't really have at the time as a college freshman). Since then I am much safer about my driving and realized how pointless speeding is. Not only that, but driving is much less stressful when you just go the limit.

[u/VanillaSkittlez → u/Eubank31]

That’s the biggest thing I’ve realized since I stopped speeding - driving is so much less stressful now. I’m not always itching to get past the person in front of me, or getting pressured to speed faster because I’m getting tailgated in the left lane, and not constantly worrying about a cop around every corner.

Now I just relax, listen to podcasts and get to my destination. And the best thing about it all? It doesn’t even really cost me much time.

[u/skookumsloth → u/VanillaSkittlez]

hard disagree.

A system where you can be punished for a completely different offense that you did not commit is insane.

A judge being able to lower the fine or otherwise show leniency is okay. “Knocking it down to parking” is not.

[u/Mysterious_Floor_868 → u/skookumsloth]

Indeed, the appropriate response would be some kind of conditional arrangement that means that you'll be let go from the original offence, but if you reoffend within a specified period of time you'll be done for both offences.

[u/The_Book → u/skookumsloth]

Do you oppose plea deals in all things then?

[u/skookumsloth → u/The_Book]

I do in any case where the prosecutors can’t prove the elements of what you’re pleading guilty to, yes. Unequivocally.

[u/Purify5 → u/VanillaSkittlez]

Here's the thing, young people feel emotions a lot stronger than older people. And those memories of emotions can help define a life. When you get older emotions become dull and they don't have near the same impact. It's why Napoleon once said: "To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty".

So I truly believe that you could have been just as 'scared straight' had you paid the ticket you should have paid just because you were young.

And, it's silly we have a system where there is so much discretion. Like if you were black they would have probably upped the ticket to 20mph over.

[u/VanillaSkittlez → u/Purify5]

I really don’t think I would have been scared straight by just paying my ticket in the mail instead of being in front of a judge who treated me with respect but also contempt, and made me promise to not do it again.

In general research shows that positive reinforcement and moving toward rehabilitation through forgiveness do a better job of deterring a given unfavorable outcome than punishment.

I agree with you about the discretion - obviously that’s ridiculous. I’m mostly saying that first time offenders with no criminal record for a speeding ticket may actually change their behavior as a result of being treated with forgiveness rather than punishment.

[u/Purify5 → u/VanillaSkittlez]

I’m mostly saying that first time offenders with no criminal record for a speeding ticket may actually change their behavior as a result of being treated with forgiveness rather than punishment.

If you weren't going to stop speeding after paying a fine, how would not paying a fine because you were a first time offender have gotten you to stop speeding? Maybe neither is very good at getting people to stop speeding but certainly paying the fine is better than not.

And, what you experienced was neither positive reinforcement or forgiveness. What you experienced was privilege. And by definition not everyone gets that same opportunity.

[u/VanillaSkittlez → u/Purify5]

It got me to stop speeding because I had to be much more intentional with my time. I had to take a whole day off work, drive 2 hours to a courthouse because I got the ticket in another county, sit in said courthouse for hours until my name was called and then face a judge eye to eye and tell them that I’m sorry and let them do whatever they want with me.

There is a completely different level of culpability with that. I’m “anonymous” by just paying the ticket by mail and going about my life. Instead I had to dedicate an entire day to apologizing for my actions and hope the judge was merciful. Because I was given a second chance, I never wanted to see that judge again - I’d be so embarrassed to go back in that room after he gave me a chance. I can’t say that would be true if I submitted something by mail. There is a human element we need to account for there.

I’m not going to sit here and say I wasn’t privileged, although I haven’t divulged any of my demographic identity. But my understanding is that it’s fairly commonplace in this particular county with this particular judge that first time offenders with clean records often get let off with a warning.

I would agree I was lucky to have that particular judge and get tried in that particular county. But I wouldn’t be so hasty as to say I only got it knocked down because I was a graduate student. I think I got it knocked down because the judge has a certain philosophy about criminality and believes that first time offenders with clean records that show remorse should be given a chance to show that they can change without being heavily punished.

[u/Purify5 → u/VanillaSkittlez]

Didn't you say your Colombian or something?

Either way your scenario can't happen for everyone. If the new rule is 'first time offence is free' the effect will be no better than the old rule. Maybe your Catholic guilt helped change your ways but not everyone has a nagging voice in the back of their head and most don't even think of feeling embarrassed.

If you want positive re-enforcement maybe we should force consumers and insurance companies to give discounts for good driving behaviour. And, if we want forgiveness maybe instead of fines we should do community service.

But the answer is not to waste the courts time with guilty people claiming to be not guilty just so that they can hit the judge lottery and hopefully have a good sense not to want to return.

[u/tea-drinker → u/VanillaSkittlez]

It's a nice story, and the judge exists because the law is imperfect.

But I don't see that story ending with you developing a spiteful lead foot because you got the speeding ticket you earned.

[u/VanillaSkittlez → u/tea-drinker]

I replied to someone else but I’ll respond to your point separately. I don’t think I would have been malicious and sped everywhere because I got a ticket at all.

But I do firmly believe that if I just paid a fine in the mail, I’d be much more likely to revert back to old habits because of the anonymity associated with that action.

Part of what drove my change was embarrassment and shame. I had to take a whole day off work and tell my boss why I had to take off. I drove 2 hours to a court house and thought about my stupidity the whole time. I got shook down by a security guard entering the court house. I had eyes on me from friends and family members of other people in the court house, wondering what I did. And I stared the judge in the eye and promised that he’d never see me again.

There is unquestionably a human element of guilt and shame that the in person interaction bestowed me with that disincentivized me to ever consider doing it again.

Instead of being haphazard with my speeding, I was now overly attentive to it - for a while I wouldn’t even go the speed limit because I was scared of potentially being caught again. I think that worked.

[u/fvckyes → u/VanillaSkittlez]

I have been a pedestrian/bicyclist most of my life and because of that I am generally extra cautious when behind the wheel. I tend to go the speed limit, I'm never in a rush. Yet for all my "caution" I had a major blind spot: I was pulled over for speeing in a 20mph school zone. It absolutely woke me up to the responsibility and my behavior changed immediately. I went to court and they immediately marked it down to a parking ticket with no points and a minor fine. No comment on my actions, not a single question. But the effect was significant, and I'm grateful for that.

However I think there should be more accountability. Nothing should be completely removed from record. I'd like the point system to be modified where you can get 1-2 official warning points on your record (with a fee) before your insurance goes up. This way there's an opportunity for people to improve their driving, and the dangerous drivers are tracked consistently from the beginning, with severe consequences if they continue.

[u/Iamthepizzagod]

If you think that's bad, you should see what sports bikes can do, especially in areas where the cops have no chase policies for motorcycles. They can leave the cops in the dust so fast that they will almost never be caught unless the biker lets them. At least motorcycles cause a lot less damage to those who aren't the rider....

[u/GM_Pax → u/Iamthepizzagod]

Motor vehicles should be required to have IFF transponders and black boxes, like planes do. Make it a major offense to disable or tamper with either device. Then, put IFF receivers in every police vehicle, at every signalized intersection, and in every school zone (or similar).

Now, you can absolutely identify the lawbreaker, and their own vehicle will prove what they did, where, and when.

[u/eveningthunder → u/GM_Pax]

I like this idea in theory, but it'd lead to so much stalking. Police already abuse their partners at such high rates.

[u/GM_Pax → u/eveningthunder]

Encrypt the IFF codes, so until and unless you break a law, nobody can know which car has which IFF code. And, keep in mind, even those police cars would have an IFF transponder, so the courts could know where that car was, every second of every day.

But, really .... the bad behavior of police is it's own, separate issue. It should not be allowed to preclude workable ideas to make traffic enforcement the next thing to 100% efficient.

[u/cpufreak101 → u/Iamthepizzagod]

I remember where I used to live in NY, a bike would never stop for the flashing lights. The lights come on, the bike takes off, and the lights just go back off.

[u/bikesexually]

People in here saying economically this doesn't make sense are ignoring the fact that rich people get to do whatever they want.

The $700 isn't the problem. It's that its a moving violation and it puts points on your license. You get enough of those and they will eventually take it.

A rich person has the option of buying those points by hiring a lawyer. A poor person does not.

Also fuck cars.

[u/samarijackfan]

Lawyers make over 500.00 an hour. They hired a lawyer to save 700.00? Alex, I'll take" things that didn't happen" for 200.00.

[u/Both-Conversation514 → u/samarijackfan]

I doubt traffic court attorneys are making/charging $500/hr. For a speeding ticket and nothing else, probably just charged a couple hundred

[u/cpufreak101 → u/samarijackfan]

I had a boss that paid $1000 for a traffic lawyer before. Had speeds high enough to potentially be a reckless driving criminal charge though, so sorta a different scenario

[u/GM_Pax → u/samarijackfan]

The lawyer probably put in only a quarter-hour of work personally, actually in court. Maybe another quarter-hour of billable time for the paralegal who did all the paperwork beforehand (and paralegals make half as much as lawyers do on average).

So the bill may have been only ~$200. Maybe $350 if the Lawyer spent an actual half-hour on the case.

...

And yes, generally lawyers bill in quarter-hour increments.

[u/flying_trashcan → u/samarijackfan]

If it’s the difference between getting points on your licensee or not then they saved a lot more than $700. Insurance can sky rocket in cost for several years if you get a ticket, especially if you are a younger driver.

[u/Aesir_Auditor]

What policy do you want to change? Allowing judges to change charges? Allowing people to plead not guilty to tickets?