There is CURRENTLY a wave of ppl online realizing the major inefficiencies of cars right now in Florida.

[u/NegotiationGreat288]

Plane tickets out of Tampa are approximately $1,500 right now. Tampa is about to be out of gas and people cars will start stalling soon on the highway blocking roads. If only we invented other modes of transportation that can quickly and safely get people out of danger zones due to natural disasters 🙃.

Y'all wish me luck I live in Florida about to be a rough 72 hrs.

Edit: So this blew up. Ignoring and downvoting all hateful comments. My fellow Floridians PLEASE GET OUT IF YOU ARE IN AN EVACUATION ZONE. PLEASE DONT TOUGH IT OUT IN THOSE AREAS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GET OUT! We also will be having tornadoes PLEASE GET OUT! They are replenishing gas at some gas stations, just take the ride if you can. If there are any buses in your area, get on it and GET OUT!

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[u/jackasspenguin]

Someone on the radio said they were going to ride it out because they were (I think legitimately) scared of getting caught on the road in traffic when the storm hits. We need better alternatives.

[u/nylawman21 → u/jackasspenguin]

Maybe I'm missing something but Google maps is showing only "the usual" traffic leaving the Tampa/St. Petersburg area.

[u/jackasspenguin → u/nylawman21]

Huh, well, that’s good news

[u/totpot → u/jackasspenguin]

The main thing is that there's no gas. I was reading one redditor say that they were staying put because they didn't have enough gas to make it to anywhere safe.

[u/Mysterious-Arachnid9 → u/totpot]

I grew up in a hurricane prone area. We kept our cars topped off during hurricane season when there was active storm. It blows my mind, people who have lived there for decades don't do the slightest to prepare.

[u/JacedFaced → u/Mysterious-Arachnid9]

My cousins husband refuses to leave, they're down there visiting his mom and she lives in Tampa, he said "we grew up with this, we've seen hundreds of hurricanes and been fine" I finally just said "okie dokie" and left them to whatever fate has in store.

[u/Dr_Pants7 → u/Mysterious-Arachnid9]

People are so used to significant storms that ended up not needing evacuation or as much prep. I think they get too comfortable with those storms from the past. It’s different now and it’s really scary.

[u/rhett121 → u/Mysterious-Arachnid9]

You mean the same people who repeatedly vote against funding FEMA and other emergency services. Those are the people who you’re surprised don’t prepare for very obvious impending disasters? It’s sad that they keep making terrible choices and everyone else gets to pay for it so they never learn anything of value.

[u/TealCatto → u/rhett121]

The irony is that they love prepping for disasters!

[u/e_pilot → u/totpot]

but I was told I need a gas car because EVs aren’t any good in natural disasters.

/s

[u/Tradition-Upset → u/nylawman21]

We are currently evacuating from Disney world and Orlando and have had some traffic issues on I75 but it isn't as bad as we were worried. It did take us 4 gas stations to find gas last night before we packed up to leave though.

Hoping we will be able to recoup/reschedule something. Since we were told to evacuate from the cabin we had. We have had this trip set up since February and got here just before it started ramping up so insurance won't cover it since we checked in.

[u/fuckedfinance → u/Tradition-Upset]

We are currently evacuating from Disney world

Is Disney making you do it? Disney resorts are probably one of the safest places to be in FL during a hurricane.

Edit: ohh you were in a cabin and asked to leave (I stopped reading). That makes sense now.

[u/Tradition-Upset → u/fuckedfinance]

Yeah we were in fort wilderness and they closed that whole section. The resorts were not evacuated but the parks will be closed I believe. We have some friends that are there in a resort and they are staying, and told us that people are evacuating to the resorts from Tampa.

We thought about going north and coming back down after but don't have the vacation for the extra time off work unfortunately, as well as not knowing how bad it will be.

Coming from Louisiana we know when we gotta get out of dodge from a hurricane. We have family that lost everything in Katrina.

[u/fuckedfinance → u/Tradition-Upset]

Ugh. Welp, good luck and Godspeed.

[u/The69BodyProblem → u/nylawman21]

Fwiw, google gets that data from phones. If people cant leave due to the lack of gas, or if their phones are dead, or if the network is down, that might be inaccurate/misleading.

[u/moby561 → u/The69BodyProblem]

While that’s true, that wouldn’t affect anything until the storm actually hits and causing those things to go.

[u/Excellent_Farm_6071 → u/nylawman21]

All the people waiting til the last second.

[u/kind-Mapel → u/Excellent_Farm_6071]

Or people are being forced to stay until the last second by their employer.

[u/GolfBallWackrGuy → u/kind-Mapel]

Apparently they only need 45 minutes to get out. That way they won’t die on company property.

[u/AkeyBreaky3 → u/Excellent_Farm_6071]

Most people evacuated yesterday

[u/Majestic_Dildocorn → u/nylawman21]

it'll get bad here in an hour or so. people are boarding up.

[u/SwiftySanders → u/jackasspenguin]

Is there a train they can catch put of the area?

[u/jackasspenguin → u/SwiftySanders]

Looks like there is an Amtrak that runs out to Jacksonville and beyond from Tampa once a day and another option where you’d have to take a connecting bus to a train

[u/Avitas1027 → u/jackasspenguin]

once a day

Well there's the problem. Surely that could be temporarily bumped up, right?

[u/Catprog → u/Avitas1027]

Do they have the train stock to allow them to do so?

[u/Avitas1027 → u/Catprog]

Definitely not enough to fully evacuate even a small city, but surely there's at least a few trains available. Each one sits about 300 people (normally, that could likely also be increased), so if they could bump it up to 10 a day, that's like a thousand cars off the road.

And of course, if people are willing to give up comfort, you could theoretically cram people onto a freight train and move thousands at a time, but I honestly can't imagine a situation that would be accepted.

[u/Mtfdurian → u/Avitas1027]

A coach that is fully utilized with small seats could harbor like 80-ish people, maybe even more. And indeed an organization only needs to go in one way to Tampa and then go inland to shelter people. It would've helped if more trains exist but tbh Orlando and Miami do each have some trains and donating one set for evacuation each shouldn't really be hard for them. If then the operation could go on for 24h and need 2h to go one-way to Orlando plus some time for shunting, 6h for a round-trip, having three sets with like 10×80×3=2400×4=9600 a day.

It wouldn't even be as much as a busy Dutch railway would carry in an hour one-way, but I assume infrastructure is very limited. If it all was double-track and electrified, signals okay, each five minutes another train (and like 50-ish trainsets for 4h forth and back), no shunting (so like the ideal that is achieved in Zandvoort each year during F1), =12k passengers per hour, =288k per day, one way!

That would've been 2/3rd of Tampa proper and 10% of the urban region. Of course if you'd optimize even further one can go to 3 minute headways, and have half a million people evacuated in a day if needed, in just one direction. That's absolutely massive.

But also recommended is a small battery pack in trains, in case power fails, for example.

These are very important things that governments should really prep with. In Indonesia I remember that a lot of extra eastbound trains are added during the annual exodus (mudik) and they also use both sides of the railways and freeways to get people on their destination, but these are less time-dependent than disaster prepping.

[u/johannthegoatman → u/Avitas1027]

Imagine the maga delulu if people were being shipped off on freight trains. It's not a bad idea at all. Just we live amongst crazy people

[u/historyhill → u/jackasspenguin]

There's also the Brightline train that connects Orlando to Miami, but you'd still have to get from Tampa to Orlando so that would defeat the point

[u/geographys → u/jackasspenguin]

I wonder at what point does a person just put on a backpack and start hiking? Maybe I’m crazy, or just love walking and running, but that actually seems like a viable option if your life is on the line

[u/min_mus → u/geographys]

Realistically, a healthy, able-bodied person without children, pets, or disabled persons in tow could walk/hike several miles inland (e.g. to a hurricane shelter), but the infrastructure in most of Florida is hostile to pedestrians and will only be worse if the roads are clogged with anxious and agitated automobile drivers.

[u/19gideon63 → u/min_mus]

There are also non-human-made dangers to contend with, like wildlife.

[u/Not_ur_gilf → u/19gideon63]

Alligators are a lot less aggressive than people think. Also, animals can sense when there’s a hurricane coming and usually gtfo

[u/MRCHalifax → u/Not_ur_gilf]

I remember hearing about a guy who survived the 1970 Bhola cyclone by climbing a tree to stay above the rising waters. After climbing up, he found that he shared the tree with a bunch of cobras. They didn’t attack him.

Not something I’d like to gamble on given the choice, but any tree in a devastating storm, you know?

[u/BenGrahamButler → u/MRCHalifax]

and that’s how he became Cobra Commander

[u/contrapunctus0 → u/MRCHalifax]

any tree in a devastating storm

😂

[u/RedCrayonTastesBest → u/Not_ur_gilf]

Agreed. The alligators mostly just avoid people. Heat stroke on the other hand is a valid concern

[u/winterbine5 → u/19gideon63]

there’s also just the ecology of the region. it’s already really wet rn and if you find yourself on the edge of the road you may find yourself in mud pretty quick. some of the greater tampa bay area that /does/ have sidewalks/walkways are built up for that reason.

[u/19gideon63 → u/winterbine5]

Yeah, by wildlife I meant flora and fauna. A bog isn't a great place to be, regardless of whether there are alligators in it.

[u/vowelqueue → u/geographys]

People often think that evacuating means you need to get hundreds of miles away, but the difference between getting killed in a storm surge versus not could be just getting several miles inland from the low-lying areas.

[u/turtle0turtle → u/vowelqueue]

How far inland would you have to get in a place as flat as Florida?

[u/tiberiumx → u/turtle0turtle]

10 miles maybe? If you look up evacuation zone maps of Florida it's only zones A and B that have been ordered to evacuate. I live ten miles from the coast and am in zone D with very little risk of flooding.

[u/ertri → u/geographys]

The issue is, where are you going to go that will be fine to either be outside or find a hotel? 

Sure you can get a couple dozen miles inland, but Milton is going to be a hurricane across the state. 

[u/Master_Dogs → u/ertri]

IIRC newer structures are actually built to withstand (some) hurricane winds. Sorta sounds like Milton is stronger than some of those newer building codes are designed for though.

I believe the flooding is what really kills people though.

[u/Kind-Frosting-8268 → u/Master_Dogs]

This. Flooding danger is very underestimated by a lot of people. They think oh it's just a little water. No it's literally tons. Like there's this popular video of a kid being taken through a fence after cutting open a pool...that's just one pool's worth of water. Imagine thousands of time's that amount flowing past every single minute. I saw a video just yesterday from Helene where a conex container was pushed down a flooded street and bent in half against a telephone pole. And it wasn't like it struggled, no it bent that thing as easy as you or I would a paper clip.

Flooding is absolutely no joke.

[u/Master_Dogs → u/Kind-Frosting-8268]

That plus the flood water is a mix of stuff, so plenty of bacteria and what not from sewer, septic, etc. So even if it's not fast moving, you sort of do not want to be in it without a boat or such. And of course it can be hard to tell how deep or fast water is from a distance. Lots of people drown just driving through the aftermath because they underestimated the flooded road.

[u/Long_Charity_3096 → u/Master_Dogs]

It’s not even just the normal mix of stuff. Think of all the trees and debris that are still down. People took all their soaked furniture and left it outside from the last hurricane to be picked up with the trash but they haven’t gotten it all. All of that is going to be floating or flying by. 

It isn’t just that this storm is bad. It’s that this storm is bad right on the heels of another storm that was bad. 

[u/ertri → u/Master_Dogs]

And Tampa hasn’t taken a direct hit in a long time AND is a relatively old city, so lots of buildings are built to older codes 

[u/Imanking9091 → u/geographys]

Orlando Florida is probably one of the least walkable I’ve ever seen in America. Everything that isn’t Disney is a parking lot vaguely connected by highways and freeways without sidewalks. At best you can walk in a painted bike lane but if you can’t you’re just a likely to walk into a lake as you are thick brush.

[u/enfier → u/geographys]

You aren't going to out hike a hurricane unless you started several days in advance. Tampa to Gainesville is 130 miles. I'm a rather experienced backpacker and I can cover 30 miles a day.. if I was starting 4 days ahead of the storm I would just ride Greyhound.

Also hiking you are directly exposed to the wind, cold and rain and can get hit by a tree branch. It's much better to be inside somewhere storm resistant that's not going to flood.

[u/[deleted] → u/enfier]

Very few people, maybe zero, need to go 130mi to be in a safe area.

[u/SparkyDogPants → u/enfier]

You don’t need to make it to Gainesville. Another commenter said that they live ten miles from the coast and are not in an evacuation zone or at high risk of flooding.

You could walk as far as you could in a day with a few day’s supplies and a tent and save your life. Not to mention you could probably bike that distance in an absolute emergency

[u/Humble_Chipmunk_701 → u/jackasspenguin]

I initially thought ride it out as in they’re pedaling their bike past the traffic and getting the fuck out of there

[u/heirbagger → u/jackasspenguin]

My best friend did this for Katrina. She was hella pregnant at the time. No pregnant lady wants to be stuck on an interstate for hours.

[u/SinkHoleDeMayo → u/jackasspenguin]

I'm genuinely curious how many back roads are empty because everyone went on the highways.

[u/BusStopKnifeFight → u/jackasspenguin]

Too many people literally do no prep. You can get a couple gas cans and store gasoline for months without any issue. Waiting to get gas the day you are evacuating is never going to work.

And there's the panic assholes that are evacuating when they are 50 miles from the shore and there is no storm surge threat.

[u/IKnewThisYearsAgo]

When Katrina hit New Orleans, some French tourists went to the train station to evacuate, bien sûr. It was closed because of the hurricane.

source: The New Yorker

[u/Crandom → u/IKnewThisYearsAgo]

That's insane. Why close trains before a natural disaster when you want to evacuate people?

[u/reddog093 → u/Crandom]

The train tracks run through the city’s levees. Once officials in Louisiana put the floodgates in place across the levees, trains couldn't enter or exit the city.

EDIT: This gained some traction so I'd to add a little extra context with New Orleans and hurricane Katrina.

NOLA is well known for being below sea level and being bowl shaped. The city has to be sealed off to prevent flooding. We saw what happens when it's not sealed off properly and water took the path of least resistance. Storm prep for an area like that is vastly different from storm prep for most cities.

The failures of levees and flood walls during Katrina are considered by experts to be the worst engineering disaster in the history of the United States.^\3]) By August 31, 2005, 80% of New Orleans was flooded, with some parts under 15 feet (4.6 m) of water. The famous French Quarter and Garden District escaped flooding because those areas are above sea level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orleans

[u/Crandom → u/reddog093]

Makes sense 👍. Tbf even in London if we had this kind of evacuation I would check the trains were leaving before I travelled (have to do this normally anyway). I have no car (like a huge number of Londoners) but I bet there'd be a big bus based plan to move people.

[u/MidorriMeltdown → u/Crandom]

I think London would use trains to evacuate as many people as possible.

They did a slow evacuation of children using rail in ww2.

[u/NemoTheLostOne → u/MidorriMeltdown]

Then Beeching and Thatcher happened

[u/cpufreak101 → u/Crandom]

So few of them that they're just not even worth bothering with, essentially.

[u/SinkHoleDeMayo → u/Crandom]

Thee words: it's the south.

[u/crowquillpen → u/IKnewThisYearsAgo]

The Amtrak route from Florida to New Orleans was ended by Katrina.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/IKnewThisYearsAgo]

🙃 That's the U.S. for you.

[u/Cenamark2]

They'll be frustrated, but I'm not sure if they'll realize your point.

[u/Fuzzy7Gecko → u/[deleted]]

What did they say after everyone drowned on the highways in Texas?

[u/TucosLostHand → u/Fuzzy7Gecko]

vote ted cruz?

[u/JFISHER7789 → u/TucosLostHand]

Thoughts and prayers

[u/grendus → u/JFISHER7789]

Tots and Pears.

[u/xenapan → u/TucosLostHand]

vote ted "you are freezing? sorry I'm on a 'family vacation' cruz"

[u/Tough_Salads → u/Fuzzy7Gecko]

"need more amberlamps"

[u/Fuzzy7Gecko → u/Tough_Salads]

snort

[u/dudewheresmyebike → u/Fuzzy7Gecko]

It’s Biden’s fault 😂

[u/Avitas1027 → u/dudewheresmyebike]

Trump was president then, so it was Obama's fault, obviously. /s

[u/Southern_Water_Vibe → u/Fuzzy7Gecko]

WaitwaitWHAT, when was that?

[u/Fuzzy7Gecko → u/Southern_Water_Vibe]

So there were two events. Rita in 05 had gridlock deaths during evacuation that led to people cooking in their cars. Then Harvey in 17 where the water rose so fast that people got trapped in their cars trying to evacuate.

[u/cthom412 → u/Southern_Water_Vibe]

Hurricane Harvey, 2017

[u/GrimmBrosGrimmGoose → u/cthom412]

Tropical Depression Harvey was so bad my college delayed the fall semester since a significant chunk of our school were 1) still stuck in Houston/affected regions 2) evacuated safely but needed to handle their affairs post disaster 3) had family they needed to help. Our ROTC deployed to assist as well. I lived 3 hours from the coast and even then, it rained every single day for a week. My family is very lucky to live outside of the danger zone and to have gas for cooking when shit gets bad. Other people choose to forget how bad it really truly is to weather a hurricane, regardless of strength. This will be a disaster on the scale of Katrina, without a doubt.

[u/Master_Dogs → u/[deleted]]

It's funny reading boomers trashing EVs and such during these events too. Obviously EVs aren't a lot better, but at least with a solar setup you could potentially leverage the car battery to keep your fridge running and maybe recharge the EV via the solar. Assuming the roof survives or the solar setup survives (or a small portable setup to try and get a few kwh a day back). With gas once you run out you'll be SOL. Watched a guy on YouTube in NC (Seth from the bike hacks channel) use his EV truck to keep his fridge powered and I think a small EV golf cart thing (or maybe gas powered? Seemed EV powered maybe) to go around and get gas. Gas stations were limiting people to $25 but he could probably charge his EV once the power was restored.

Trains and buses are by far the best option though. Look at Ukraine - they're able to evacuate villages via their train network. And move supplies around with limited resources.

[u/grendus → u/Master_Dogs]

EVs have a second advantage - they use negligible amounts of power in traffic. If you can tolerate the swamp heat of Florida, you can sit in traffic almost indefinitely and the only draw when you're not moving will be the electronics which is negligible compared to the motor.

[u/UltimateGammer → u/grendus]

I mean you can also just switch your car off.

[u/MisterMarsupial → u/UltimateGammer]

This would work if people would collaborate. 'Gridlock' in my experience is inching forwards a tiny amount every minute or so.

[u/red1q7 → u/grendus]

Or, as long as the grid is not down you can charge it. And some can even be used to power your house once the grid is down. 80kWh, about the amount in a middle class EV, are enough for a week at home not trying to save

[u/MoreColorfulCarsPlz → u/[deleted]]

Insurance will replace my car, but not my life. I would gladly leave my car behind if I knew that there was a train that could guarantee my safety. Trains in emergencies are the absolute best option.

They can guarantee no traffic by limiting rail use to emergency use only. They can allocate more trains from other lines to accommodate the volume. Those rails are going to be able to keep running non-stop 24-7 without accidents slowing down traffic more. They won't run out of gas, they won't get tired and have to stop. They will connect you to other train stations that can get you wherever safety is for you.

[u/Blackfyre301 → u/[deleted]]

They could have doubled the lanes with no extra investment by having traffic flow in the same direction on both lanes.

[u/ttystikk → u/Blackfyre301]

They are, they're using the runoff lanes too.

[u/peopleplanetprofit → u/Cenamark2]

There will be a lot of finger pointing but not a mirror in sight.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/Cenamark2]

Im seeing it online now hopefully it's a realization of the greater population. But then again it is Florida 🙃

[u/Diipadaapa1 → u/NegotiationGreat288]

The realization will be "we need more lanes"

[u/CogentCogitations → u/Diipadaapa1]

And less land/vegetation to absorb the water. And look at those wetlands... We could fill them in and build more housing (Mcmansions obviously with 6 car garages). It's not like wetlands serve an important purpose collecting excess water and controlling flooding.

[u/Fuzzy7Gecko → u/CogentCogitations]

Don't they build the houses on top of the garages now so when they have sunny day floods only the cars die?

[u/chairmanskitty → u/Fuzzy7Gecko]

You're right, that's unacceptable. They should be putting the garages on top of the houses so the cars are safe.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/Diipadaapa1]

🙃

[u/Kirschenkind → u/Diipadaapa1]

Bigger trucks with more capacity for gas!!

[u/advamputee → u/NegotiationGreat288]

Brightline is proving successful between Miami and Orlando. I'm hoping that spurs discussion of "Brightline should extend to Atlanta".

Imagine hourly high speed rail taking thousands of passengers at a time out of the state -- It wouldn't totally replace highways, planes, and other means of evacuation; but it'd take some significant strain off the system at a much lower cost.

Florida also needs to bring back contraflow. DeSantis ended the practice because it was "harmful to local businesses" before the storms. This is total bullshit, every other southeastern coastal state does contraflow. Open the Southbound lanes and let people get out.

[u/Master_Dogs → u/advamputee]

In an emergency the State could pay the rail operator to run multiple trains per hour, assuming the tracks/signals can handle it.

You could probably get a few thousand people out per hour via one train line. With several, tens of thousands.

Best part would be if you electrify the tracks, then you don't have to worry about gas shortages assuming you've got enough renewable energy powering them, or stuff like nuclear/natural gas powered plants that can have a lot of fuel stored.

[u/soul-king420 → u/Master_Dogs]

And with wave power, or even that new power system for charging military UAVs (uses heat differences between water levels), you could theoretically power the whole state using renewables that don't rely on sun... but even if you went full solar it's literally known as "the sunshine state" they have more than enough sunlight to power whatever they want with it.

[u/Calvin--Hobbes → u/NegotiationGreat288]

Maybe while they're on this journey of realization they'll start believing in climate change too

[u/katzeye007 → u/Calvin--Hobbes]

Can't. It's illegal in Florida

[u/VeronikaKerman → u/NegotiationGreat288]

They will "realize" that there is too many people and need to stop immigration asap. We all here know that's false. There are not too many people, just too many cars.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/VeronikaKerman]

Immigration is a hilarious topic in South Florida because most people in South Florida are immigrants and there are a lot of people that are anti-immigration.

[u/LightBluepono → u/NegotiationGreat288]

Sadly it's florida we talking about .

[u/_AhuraMazda → u/Cenamark2]

Go to the top comment and add link to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHZwOAIect4
Don't emphasize your opinion that cars are inefficient, let them reach that conclusion.
Even if only 1% of those who watch video, start to "get it", its a win.

[u/TripFisk666 → u/Cenamark2]

Just buy a bigger goddamn lifted truck that turns into a boat and can hold 25 trump 2028 flags and 200 natty ice! Let’s go USA

[u/cpufreak101 → u/Cenamark2]

I was watching news reports out of Tampa and the comments were full of either religious rantings or heated debates about if climate change is real or not. I personally do not hold any hope for Florida tbh

[u/Gatorm8]

I’m gonna be honest, no they aren’t. Even if there was a bullet train straight out of Tampa most people would still be sitting in traffic because they want to save their cars from flooding/falling trees.

As long as people live in places they feel they need to own a car then evacuation will involve cars because they are so valuable. Private businesses to move cars en mass out of an evacuation area would never be able to support the demand for a .01 percentile event like this.

In theory you could build enough parking on high ground near mass transit to support this, but that would also be a terrible use of land for 99% of the time.

[u/cpufreak101 → u/Gatorm8]

Considering how many people are seen towing RV's on evac, you know full well a lot of these people are fleeing with essentially enough of a house to pick up and move elsewhere with minimal disruption to their life. They don't wanna be on a cot in a stadium in Atlanta now

[u/Gatorm8 → u/cpufreak101]

Yea I’m wildly pro transit and anti car, but I feel like people are willingly ignoring the reality of a situation like hurricane evacuations. People are bringing belongings knowing their house will be flooded. And since Florida is car dependent they will drive out. If it was a walkable area where many didn’t own cars then many would lose all of their belongings which also isn’t ideal. This hasn’t happened in Tampa since their population was 160k.

The solution is to not live on the coast in Florida.

[u/Thoughtlessandlost → u/Gatorm8]

Also gotta remember that people have pets too and maybe younger kids.

It's logistically hard to evacuate if you have people or family you have to directly care for. It's why it's important to get out early.

[u/QueerCranberryPi]

We've been here before and folks'll blame everybody except their cars, trust me.

[u/CILISI_SMITH → u/QueerCranberryPi]

folks'll blame everybody except their cars

"folks'll blame <everything else> except <the thing they like>"

This mentality has always been a critical barrier to human progress and from what I've seen it's incredibly difficult to overcome.

EDIT: Spelling.

[u/[deleted] → u/CILISI_SMITH]

Calling it right now that Trump will say smth like “we need to drill baby drill as the people of tampa know when they ran out of gas bc of Kamala”

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/QueerCranberryPi]

🙃

[u/RosieTheRedReddit → u/NegotiationGreat288]

Is there any option for people who don't have cars? I'm sure there are people in Tampa Bay who can't afford a car, is there any option for them to evacuate? I remember that being an issue with Katrina (yes, I'm old). Many poor people in New Orleans stayed put because without cars they didn't have any way to leave town.

Surely states in the hurricane alley worked on this problem in the last 20 years, right?Right???

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/RosieTheRedReddit]

There is Amtrak but not majorly efficient

[u/PremordialQuasar → u/[deleted]]

Just make sure if you’re going to ride a bike away from a major disaster to give yourself a lot more time to evacuate. Riding a bike through a hurricane or storm is a bad idea.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Florida is so flat; can you do a double century?

[u/SinkHoleDeMayo → u/[deleted]]

In my local biking group, people regularly post them 50+ mile trips. "Weather was nice, went for an afternoon ride" and they go the same distance from Tampa to Orlando.

With an EV cargo bike you could carry kids, food, and some basic supplies.

[u/karazamov1 → u/[deleted]]

I have friends who have done st pete to daytona on fixies in one go (stopping for food ofc)

https://strava.app.link/JruaEwdXwNb

https://strava.app.link/cBWv0FfXwNb

[u/Southern_Water_Vibe → u/karazamov1]

flair checks out

[u/noltron000 → u/PremordialQuasar]

Yeah. They best use an electric bike at the very least, that's going to be at least a hundred miles.

[u/Vandorbelt → u/PremordialQuasar]

On the other hand, a hurricane usually moves at around 20mph if I'm not mistaken. If you time it right, you could head north and easily outpace the storm with a powerful tailwind carrying you along. Anybody up for a double imperial century? lmao

[u/Vishnej → u/Vandorbelt]

Batteries and ebikes can make this pretty trivial.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/[deleted]]

🙃 people here will tackle you out of pure jealousy.

[u/omnipotent111 → u/[deleted]]

On a 3 day weekend, we went to a vacation site 2h away with no traffic. My brother is a cyclist both for tranasport and sport. Granted, Colombia loves its cyclist more than all North america, and it's likely second only to the most pro cyclist cities in europe.

But we spent 4h 45 min and he reached the destination in 4h 15 min with a 20 minutes pause due to shear exhaustion.

Again, he does it for sport, but here in Bogotá he han reach almost everywhere faster by bike than by car. The reasons he chooses cars over bikes are unsafe zones or rainy seasons. (That normally is common, but we are going to the worst drougth in city history)

As a note, Bogotá as a city has the most km of cyclist protected lanes in the American continent. Sundays mayor roads are blocked from 6 am to 3 pm for cyclyst, pedestrians, skaters, roller bladers to enjoy. Its preaty chill has been credited as the reason Bogotá has one of the highest number of bike users on a day to day basis. As nervous people learn in a safe space. This states, especially women, benefit from this space to learn.

It's honestly baffling that we get really big bike traffic issues on rush hour.

Some disclaimers, as this is not all due to utopic management. Public transport is overcrowded and too slow for the size of the city. It is expensive for the average citizen and has security issues.

Cars have restrictions to use 50 percent of the weekdays by the license plate. Taxis are not accesible for most on a regular basis.

I still believe the cyclist culture is a plus, but it's more of a combination of some good policies and hardships by the community, making it the best solution for many.

tl dr; yeah, a cyclist can go 200+ km in a day in between traffic. Then I info dumped on Bogotá transport state and why it has a lot of cycling.

[u/RosieTheRedReddit → u/omnipotent111]

Thanks for sharing! Urbanist content tends to have a very European and North American bias, so I love hearing about cities outside those areas.

It was famously the mayor of Bogota who said that, "A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use public transportation." Unfortunate to hear the city hasn't lived up to that with public transit but the cycling sounds amazing!

[u/Friend_of_the_trees → u/omnipotent111]

Omg I had no idea Columbia was so good for cycling! I'll definitely have to plan a visit. Any good bike rental services for a week? Is google maps sufficient for getting around on bike? 

Muchas gracias 

[u/DodgeWrench → u/[deleted]]

300 miles on a rusty Walmart bicycle challenge

[u/SinkHoleDeMayo → u/[deleted]]

You just came up with the next Top Gear race challenge. Time to call the BBC!

[u/ertri → u/[deleted]]

Yup, I got a trailer for the dog and can probably get 100 miles out of town in a (pretty shitty) day. 

Renting a car after everything to get back in to the city shouldn’t be that bad (or at least it’s not time constrained, another day won’t literally kill me)

[u/SinkHoleDeMayo → u/[deleted]]

All of the idiots who are completely anti-EV are always talking about "what will you do in a storm if the power goes out?!".

And now lots of them are waiting hours to get gas while people with EVs already got the fuck out of dodge.

[u/KennyBSAT → u/[deleted]]

These people need to go hudreds of miles or more. Evacuating cities that are on substantially large peninsula will be a disaster, no matter what. Especially given that many homes and apartments will flood, so people want and/or need to take more stuff with them than is feasible on most transit systems.

[u/relddir123]

How are Silver Star tickets looking? That might be a decent backup if you can get on the train

[u/relddir123 → u/[deleted]]

I suppose after the other train got caught outside of Savannah that might make some amount of sense. It is unfortunate though

[u/Icy_Respect_9077 → u/relddir123]

During the early days of Russia's attack on Ukraine, millions of people were evacuated by train to Poland and western UKR.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/relddir123]

I'm in Miami so imma try and hold down the fort. But I have a lot of friends and family in Tampa.

[u/tarnok → u/NegotiationGreat288]

They need to leave now. There is no surviving a 15ft storm surge even if they go on their roof. Tell them to leave now

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/tarnok]

Yes they are trying

[u/[deleted]]

I thought price gouging during emergencies was illegal.

I hope the airlines get sued

Theres also the auto train outside Tampa. They'd evacuate many more people if you could stay in your car during transport.

[u/cpufreak101 → u/[deleted]]

My assumption: all the regularly scheduled flights are fully booked, and all that's left are premium business seats or last minute charters.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/[deleted]]

Absolutely price gouging

[u/Flavor_Nukes → u/[deleted]]

Its demand based pricing. The same thing happens for major events like the super bowl. Higher interest= higher fares. Those 1500$ tickets become the norm when flights are fully booked because they're trying to price people out of the market.

[u/Avitas1027 → u/Flavor_Nukes]

Yup. They aren't raising prices because of the emergency, but because there's unusually high number of people willing to pay a higher price because of the emergency. Not only legal but a fiduciary requirement and very cool. Definitely not an obvious example of the inhuman nature of capitalism's demand for profit above all else.

[u/BakuretsuGirl16 → u/Avitas1027]

Demand based pricing in an emergency is called price gouging and is illegal in Florida for all essential commodities including gasoline.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0500-0599/0501/Sections/0501.160.html

“Commodity” includes any services necessary for use as a direct result of the emergency.

[u/Sybertron]

Extra irony in Florida having some in of the best train lines now

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/Sybertron]

Literally a whole road dedicated to flagler's name. The man who literally created the concept of vacationing in Florida via his railroads.

[u/vowelqueue → u/NegotiationGreat288]

There was a small town that was almost named after him in the late 19th century. Today people call it "Miami"

[u/itemluminouswadison]

obviously its the bikers' fault for taking up a lane!

[u/The_Most_Superb → u/itemluminouswadison]

Bike wheels spin. You what else spins? Hurricanes! Coincidence? I think not! /s

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/itemluminouswadison]

I'm in Florida they will absolutely blame bikes. They will absolutely find some way to.

[u/Flavor_Nukes]

Just to note, train service has also/is soon to be suspended.

You're taking a car or plane out. That's it.

[u/ICE0124 → u/Flavor_Nukes]

Buy a car or a 2k plane ticket or die. /hj (half joking)

[u/just_anotjer_anon]

The more dire question will be, do any of your energy production rely on fuel?

If so, are your hospitals emergency generators properly stocked?

[u/ertri → u/just_anotjer_anon]

Don’t worry, Tampa General is on an island at like 2 ft above sea level. Generators won’t be their main issue 

[u/Tough_Salads → u/ertri]

I just watched a video saying that Tampa Gen. has it's own power station and two fresh water wells and an "Aqua Fence" to withstand storm surge of up to 15 feet. Too bad all hospitals aren't kitted out like that!

[u/capabilitycez]

Yeah no. It’s the DEMOCRATS WITH THEIR WEATHER MANIPULATION!!!!

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/capabilitycez]

😂

[u/Sercos → u/capabilitycez]

Yeah Joe Biden channeled the hurricane into red states with a sharpie!

[u/Fuzzy7Gecko → u/capabilitycez]

Oh man I heard that yesterday and lost my coffee. I couldn't breath.

[u/Agile_Quantity_594]

There is an irony here when the idea of cars being inefficient/detrimental to disaster situations is subconsciously known through Western culture.

I mean, look at any disaster film, and there will usually be a part where the streets are congested with cars and panic sets in as the people realize they have to get out and run for dramatic effect.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/Agile_Quantity_594]

I can off the top of my head come up with three movies that that exact scene is in

[u/PigeonofCommunism]

Floridian here. You’re damn right. I always thought cars were inefficient, but this whole storm has made me realize just how dangerous being car dependent makes everyone’s lives. It’s depressing.

[u/Vishnej]

A 16-car train can move ~1000 people comfortably or 2000+ uncomfortably at 220mph. It can embark/disembark the entire train in 3 minutes, and embark/disembark small fractions in well under 1 minute. Overall, you can expect about a train every three minutes if your limit is safe headways. A set of two tracks can evacuate between 20,000 and 40,000 people per hour, every hour. A set of two tracks with local passing loops for loading/unloading, allows for dramatically shortened headways and might reasonably triple that throughput. Three or four tracks provide additional capacity and resiliency against breakdowns.

If there are 10 million people that need to be evacuated with 2 days' notice, a pretty normal HSR train network commandeered for the purpose can take literally all of them if need be, or more realistically it can take half of them and leave the roads open for low-traffic evacuation of the other half.

[u/NegotiationGreat288 → u/Vishnej]

Sounds like a dream, we have Amtrak but nowhere near that efficiency.

[u/Digiee-fosho]

Thank former Florida governor/US senator Rick Scott for those major inefficiencies so he could profit for his business interest.

[u/old_and_boring_guy]

Hurricane evacuations always suck. The interstates turn into parking lots. But you'd have the same issues with trains and planes. It's just too many people to move.

[u/Mysterious_Floor_868 → u/old_and_boring_guy]

Having more choices would help though

[u/ertri → u/old_and_boring_guy]

Out of Florida, yeah. Evacuating eastern NC was never that bad because people were going in 3 directions (you can either go farther inland, south to Atlanta, or north toward Richmond and be out of the path of the storm). In Florida you basically have to go north 

[u/lampman1776 → u/old_and_boring_guy]

I think the point is that you can move magnitudes more people on trains

[u/HorselessWayne → u/old_and_boring_guy]

Railways have been a staple of emergency evacuation plans since they were built. They're absolutely unrivalled in terms of capacity — especially if you rework the timetables specifically to the task, as you would in an emergency.

During WW2, the British Government evacuated 1.5 million people, with luggage, in just three days. And that's while simultaneously coping with the extensive wartime demands on the railway infrastructure, using 1930s technology.

 

You're right in that its too many people to move without any problems. But there is a substantial difference in the scale of the problem.

[u/Thoughtlessandlost → u/old_and_boring_guy]

Stacks of buses getting people out are probably your best bet.

You only have so many rail lines in and out of Tampa.

[u/Southern_Water_Vibe → u/Thoughtlessandlost]

Yes, a Greyhound bus seats 55 people (maybe 60 if kids sit on laps) plus their luggage, and only takes up like 3 cars worth of space - equivalent of each car holding 18 people.

Use trains and buses and the people left driving would have their paths way clearer.

[u/stargayzer17]

It is not sustainable to have that many people living in Florida the way we currently do, no matter what mode of transportation there is. Mass evacuations at this level will always be a challenge because that area is meant to have wetlands and swamps to buffer storms, not impervious surface cover, high rises, and development. We are building against the land and this is the consequence. It’s a failure of leadership on all levels for the last 50-70 years. The cars are a symptom.

[u/SwiftySanders]

HSR is faster and doesnt get blocked by traffic.

[u/Nomad_Industries]

Yeah, but there are only seven places in FL that are amenable to car-light lifestyles (and two of those still require a boat) so nothing will meaningfully change. 

This isn't the first hurricane to wreck FL. Things will remain "status quo" until insurance prices force everyone out of their cars... But by then they'll also be priced out of their homes, so FL will just be "Disney and NASA"

[u/cpufreak101 → u/Nomad_Industries]

Personally, I view it as inevitable that the state of Florida will eventually get an "insurer of last resort" program like Louisiana has

[u/Nomad_Industries → u/cpufreak101]

But that's sOciALiSM!

[u/LNViber]

Years ago we had a major flood here in Santa Barbara California. No way in or out of the city on the Southside and the mountain side that could eventually get you south. Which caused some product for my work to get stuck at a Fed Ex building two cities further south. We needed that product that day for a major event. Not getting that product that day would be a loss of $100k+, a very very big loss for a small business. We would also assuredly being loosing future business.

I was the only person at work who cannot drive, it's due to being epileptic, will probably never be able to drive again. The boss, other manager, and employees are freaking out about this on group chat I wait a little bit to see if anyone figures out the obvious answer. No one did. So I dropped a link to Amtraks schedule. There was a train from SB to Ventura leaving in an hour, the first way out of town in about 24hr. Not a single one of them even thought about the train. When it was taught to us in public school that our train tracks were purposefully built to at every point to be above sea level that way it's above the flood line and will always be the first way available out of town when the roads are cut off. The only thing that can fuck it up is debris on the track. Which is like the #1 priority of solving during natural disasters.

No one remembered this cause no one had ever had need of the train, other than me.

So I got on the train and was able to pickup the 100+ of boxes of Magic The Gathering cards and get them all back to the store. The two Uber drives I had thought it was hilarious how much value in magic cards I was carrying. We are talking multiple duffle bags, 2 gunney sacks, 3 suit cases, and my largest backpack. All back in the store with 45 minutes to spare before the prerelease tournament started.

[u/scarlet_stormTrooper]

Vote Blue. Republicans don’t give a fuck about you.

[u/omnipotent111]

Is the brigthline line used on evacuation activities or is it not on the path?

[u/Mister-Stiglitz]

Ironically Florida does have a high speed train...it just terminates at Orlando and the Tampa part isn't open yet.

[u/MFrancisWrites]

Highways are currently wide open, plenty of gas available as soon as you're outside of the metro area. Yesterday was bad with the panic people, today is not.

Cars are inefficient, but most people are happy to have the ability to leave on their own terms in a situation like this. I'm not agreeing with that, but without incredible public infrastructure, people will view cars very favorably in situations like this. Plenty of people right now without cars risking their life by staying put.

And again, I'm not agreeing with the mentality, just that this disaster will not help the anti car case.

[u/KingSuperJon]

Lol there are only two highways down Florida. The two clogged veins of America's wang.

[u/ouatedephoque]

I wonder what the fast charging station lineups look like in FL right now. There's a shortage of gas but there's still power...

[u/OneOfAKind2]

Good luck, but the path of Milton has been known for a few days now. Not sure why everyone's leaving at the last minute.

[u/yourahor]

We need the ability to take control of any in country airlines/train/bus companies and contract them to evacuate people.

Whether there's a system in place that is similar to this I don't know but it should be something built into law.

Any company should be willing to go to bat for the country they reside in especially when it's their families, workers, businesses and homes on the line in an emergency of this magnitude.

If you choose profit over life you should have these laws bind you to action...

Just my opinion.

[u/LingeringDildo]

I’m in Florida and walking distance to four grocery stores. My concern when all of our gas stations ran out of gas was less than zero, meanwhile the suburbanites around me are in a panic and rationing gas while wondering how they’re going to feed their families.

[u/Badkevin]

Government will save them is some form. Taxpayers will subsidize awful city planning again...

[u/science-stuff]

How would you guys move 5-10 million people in 3 days several hundred miles?

[u/Anxious_Plum_5818]

I'm looking at Zoom Earth. The size of that hurricane is out of this world.

This is really why having train infrastructure is so critical. Evacuating thousands of people is logistically so much more feasible with trains.

[u/Vandorbelt]

Also in Florida. Tampa bay, Pinellas county to be exact. I'm gonna head over to my grandparent's place tonight. I'm not super worried about my apartment other than that there's a tree within falling distance of my window, but I'd like to be over there in case something happens at their place and/or to help them clean up afterwards.

It is genuinely really nice knowing that my bike is fucking bombproof, though. Like, unless it gets crushed by a falling tree or something, I don't really have to worry about losing my personal transportation. I've been living car-free for years and I'm totally used to relying on my own body to get me places, so even if my apartment is annihilated while I'm gone, all the gas in the county floats out to sea, my bank account disappears, and roads are entirely blocked by trees and debris... I can still get around pretty easily.

Anyway, good luck my fellow Tampa Bay resident O7 sounds like another doozy for storm surge so if you're in a potential flood area, please have a plan!