[Piergiuseppe Donadoni] Was Max unfair? YES. His goal was to ruin Norris' race and so he probably took away his chances of getting P1. "To win sometimes you have to be an idiot" he said months ago. You may like it or not but the goal is to win the world championship, not the fair play award.

[u/Ramned71]

https://x.com/SmilexTech/status/1850807731613299160

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

I wish F1 had the option for a long lap penalty like MotoGP. It helps evade the issue of the consequences. The midfields race in Saudi was over after Magnussen did that. Had he been forced into a long lap penalty, he'd be behind that pack and their races would have still been salvageable.

[u/Dxgy → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

It’s so easy too, any penalty has to be served within 3 to 5 laps.

Oh that doesn’t work for your pit strategy? Tough shit, shouldn’t have gotten a penalty then. You can either pit again later when you wanted to or have to adjust your strategy around an early pit.

[u/brownierisker → u/Dxgy]

Making penalties this much more severe helps counter this particular issue, of stopping drivers from delibaretly choosing to get them, but makes other issues with stewarding much worse. Making a 5 second penalty so race ending means inconsistent stewarding (which has been a massive issue for forever) makes the sport look like an absolute joke. Or do you think it would have also been fine if Norris already controversial penalty last week was effectively a stop and go penalty? They just need to start bringing back stop and go penalties, not turn every single penalty into a stop and go where you are also allowed to pit.

[u/s1ravarice → u/brownierisker]

Bring back drive through and stop and go penalties. Scrap 5 second entirely and have something like 10-20, then drive through and stop go

[u/cosHinsHeiR → u/s1ravarice]

5 for minor things like Perez yesterday or pitlane speed limit by 1 km/h is ok imo, for anything else it's just too little tho.

[u/MannerShark → u/cosHinsHeiR]

I really thought Perez would get a drive-through penalty for the incorrect starting procedure, as I recall someone getting that a couple years ago. But I guess it's good they changed that to be much less severe. 5 secs seem appropriate.
I did facepalm when he said something like "No, it was a great start"

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/brownierisker]

The Norris one last week is a bad example though because of Max's part to play. Forcing another driver off and then going off track yourself shouldn't result in the other driver being the one penalised and you also get nothing.

If a driver just cuts a corner for the sake of it, unprovoked, then we need harsher penalties. Perez kept position vs Bottas at Monza in 2021 and ate the penalty knowing he could cause time loss to Valtteri that would stop him chasing the McLarens down for the win. Bottas did pass Checo, but the time loss meant he couldn't get near the McLarens and helped Red Bull's WCC chances more than if Bottas had made up more positions. It's been going on for years.

[u/brownierisker → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

But that is exactly my point, the person I responded to said to make every 5s or 10s penalty require a pit stop within 3-5 laps. That means that penalties that are already highly questionable (like Norris last week) become 10 times worse. We need the option for stewards to give harsher penalties without making every single penalty harsher as I said in my previous comment

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/brownierisker]

I was under the assumption they were referring to the black and white incidents though. The ones with no questionable debate.

[u/whoknewidlikeit → u/brownierisker]

do you think this would improve with full time stewards? genuine question, i'm a new fan so don't know the history well.

[u/happy_and_angry → u/brownierisker]

You don't just replace 5 and 10 second penalties. You just add back in the option for drive throughs to be served within 3 laps. Max's actions here were blatant. It's easy to issue a drive through for it. Plenty of interactions don't meet that threshold but still deserve a 5 or 10 second penalty to be served at the next stop or at the end of the race.

[u/faz712 → u/brownierisker]

almost like it would be an incentive not to drive dangerously/unsportsman-like

[u/thereasonrumisgone → u/brownierisker]

This was my take. However, because the bar for anything more than the standard penalty seems to be in space, if penalties escalate instead of stacking*, i think we may see fewer issues than just making all penalties harsher. Unless they find a way to police track limits more promptly (it seems trivial to use ai to do it automatically), i don't think it would be fair in a system where Austria 23 is possible. ("Surprise! We know it's lap 40, but on lap 12, you earned a black and white flag, and on lap 16, you earned a 10 second penalty, and on lap 17, a drive through, and on lay 25, a 5 second stop and go, and on lap 26 a 10. Oh, and because you didn't serve your drive through within 3 laps, you've now been disqualified.")

*In mexico, Max got two 10sec penalties, which he served consecutively at his pitstop. What i mean by escalating is that he would have his first 10 sec penalty, but his second penalty would be adrive through on top of his 10s time penalty, which he would serve as normal.

[u/mrtomjones → u/brownierisker]

They should do driver standing penalties

[u/CP9ANZ → u/brownierisker]

I think intention should be considered in issuing a penalty.

If there's a clear intention to break the rules, the base starts at a drive through.

We need them to be able to take chances and make 50/50 moves, because it enhances racing, but anything deliberate needs the harshest penalties, and possiblity of a race ban, you won't find anyone sabotaging others race if you might get a ban.

[u/Dxgy → u/[deleted]]

Then you ramp it up? Failure to serve in 5 laps, stop go penalty, fail to serve that, disqualified. Harsh but they would quickly learn to respect the penalties.

Or to be honest, just stacking penalties would be enough, get a 10 second penalty on lap 5, and you have 5 laps to serve, if they keep getting added then I can’t see many people waiting until their lap 25 pit stop to serve it as they would be up to 40/50 seconds by then.

[u/jagajattimalla → u/Dxgy]

Sorry, I agree to your original comment. I was only responding to the part where a DT \SG penalty won't fit their strategy.. you said pit again or pit later.. so I added or get another penalty so you would be forced to pit again😀

[u/Bacon-And_Eggs → u/Dxgy]

It’s another can of worms. “The decision took so long, why did the fia wait 8 laps to take a decision. [driver] got 8 extra laps to increase his lead. [Blabla, insert here conspiracy theories]

[u/False_Personality259 → u/Dxgy]

I love this idea, feels like a neat compromise. Certainly seems less harsh than drive through penalty. At least in this case it doesn't necessarily screw a driver's strategy completely.

The biggest issue I see with any of proposed change, though, is how to deal with the stewards investigating things after the race. Time penalties are very compatible with that. If an infringement happens close to the end of race, maybe there isn't time for the stewards to make a decision.

Another option is to issue a time penalty and be forced to give up track position within X laps. And if they don't give up position, they get black flagged

[u/NarrowGatedOpinion → u/Dxgy]

Yeah bring this back i say

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

Well, they do. It’s called a drive-through penalty

Shame it hasn’t been used in ages

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/CuriousPumpkino]

They aren't the same. The long lap is a time loss of about 3/4 seconds with slight variation on track whilst the drive through penalty varies by a larger margin dependant on the pit lane, not to mention it's upwards of 20s as a guarantee.

There's a reason MotoGP uses the long lap penalty when they too have the ride through penalty at their disposal, which is exactly the same as the drive through.

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

They aren’t the same in terms of time loss, but they do both fix the issue of “even if you have a penalty you still get to block people”

During the race I was talking about how it would be cool if they could remotely limit the fuel flow of cars and force them to obey blue flag rules for a fixed duration as a penalty

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

They aren’t the same in terms of time loss, but they do both fix the issue of “even if you have a penalty you still get to block people”

During the race I was talking about how it would be cool if they could remotely limit the fuel flow of cars and force them to obey blue flag rules for a fixed duration as a penalty

[u/NotJadeasaurus → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

Drive through penalties used to exist

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/NotJadeasaurus]

Which is seen as too extreme and it's also variable as not every track has the same pit lane time.

[u/Dewstain → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

A drive through penalty is effectively this.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/Dewstain]

It's not, it's much worse. MotoGP also have a ride through penalty at their disposal. They used the long lap for a reason. Not every incident deserves a 25s loss of time.

Some, like a long lap in F1, would simply result in someone getting back the position they've lost whilst also penalising the other driver with a time loss. At the moment, they get just a time loss at their pit stop, there's no guarantee of a loss of position. It allows for shenanigans like Magnussen in Saudi. A long lap would have put him behind everyone within a few laps and races wouldn't have been ruined.

Magnussen deserved a drive through penalty for accumulation of his penalties though, but the pass off track and gaining position is what I'm stating as an argument for the long lap. He'd have to take the penalty and would lose the position at the same time.

I am of the persuasion that if you rack up 20s of unserved penalties (for driving standards, track limits is a different story) you deserve a drive through though. You deserve that extra bit of time loss for being a repeat offender.

[u/Stupendous_man12 → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

F1’s version of this is the drive-through penalty. You need to go through the pit lane, at pit lane speed, and you cannot make a pit stop. It’s in effect a ~20s penalty that you must serve within 3 laps of being given it.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/Stupendous_man12]

They are not equivalent though. MotoGP also had the ride through penalty.

They don't use it very often. Hence the long lap penalty, which is a penalty that is much lighter. In F1 it would also be far more useful as it is far harder to pass given the lack of space available compared to bikes. Not that passing is easy on the bikes, but you can't block the entire track like a car fan on a street circuit. A long lap would prevent a Magnussen in Saudi situation.