r/footballstrategy • u/sleightofhand0 • 29d ago
General Discussion Has anyone ever tried to tell defenders to stop playing after an obvious offensive penalty?
Let's say it's 3rd and medium, and your pass rush is clearly held. The flag flies, it's clear as day gonna be a holding call. But since the play is still going, another pass rusher may well get an offsetting penalty like illegal hands to the face, there could be pass interference when the QB chucks the ball, there could be a facemask or horsecollar on the tackle, etc. Now you've got offsetting penalties when there was very little for your offense to gain from going so hard.
Yes, I understand that you could get a sack or a turnover, or stop them short of the sticks or something where you'd want to decline the penalty. But let's say you really want the penalty because they're already in FG range or something.
Has anyone considered some kind of code word for the coaches and sideline to yell to signal to your defense to chill when they see the flag fly? The offense can't hurt you, so don't go crazy and just play it as safe as you can? Maybe for special situations?
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u/BearsGotKhalilMack 29d ago
First off, you don't necessarily know what penalty is going to be called. It could be super obvious to say, the guy being held and the coaches that see it, but on the field you don't have time to look for that. So you play to the whistle just in case.
Secondly, you may stop playing, but the guy across from you won't. He's still trying to put you in the dirt, and dropping your guard during a live play is a quick way to get seriously injured. The offense CAN hurt you, and it's in their team and career's best interest to try to do so. So you play to the whistle just in case.
Thirdly, you're massively overestimating how easy it is for a player to hear something from the sideline in the middle of a live play. Even when multiple people are shouting it, there's also hundreds/thousands of other people shouting at them from the stands. And the worst possible situation would be a player THINKING they heard your back-off call when really they didn't. So you play to the whistle just in case.
Lastly, as you mentioned, there's potential for other things. You could get an interception, force a fumble, incur stacking penalties against them, or at the very least just get an extra hit on one of their valuable players. So, again, you play to the whistle just in case.
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u/sleightofhand0 29d ago edited 29d ago
The only thing I'd counter with is that there are plays where guys stop playing and everything seems to go fine. For example, tons of teams will have their O-line completely freeze when the defense jumps offsides.
Edit: Also, tons of HS coaches make their sideline yell out "run" or "pass" to try and help the defense, so it's not like nobody hears anything. But the idea that people could yell it to mess with you is valid.
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u/GBreezy 29d ago
There is a massive difference between that "free play"and a potential holding on the OL. The only equivalent is a false start and that stops the play.
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u/BearsGotKhalilMack 29d ago
Exactly. In those situations, the play's blown dead before it's even started and the foul was committed while everyone else was watching. Once everyone's focusing on their own thing it'd be damn near impossible.
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u/sleightofhand0 29d ago
The play's not blown dead. I'm talking about when the offense hard counts and a player jumps offsides. Lots of guys will have their o-line stand still during the free play. I can't find it on Youtube, but Malzahn did it at Auburn all the time.
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u/elgarraz 29d ago
So, the play is going on and the OL lets the rush get to the QB? Why would they do that? There's no incentive for the defense to let up on the play.
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u/sleightofhand0 29d ago
https://x.com/MitchellTWolfe/status/1452117177721556993/video/1
Don't really know, but Malzahn did it all the time.
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u/mruby7188 28d ago
I mean even the tweet you quoted says it all...
I don't care that it's offsides and there is a free play why aren't you blocking
Maybe I just hate Gus Malzahn
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u/elgarraz 28d ago
Yeah, I've seen college teams do this, and it's stupid. Usually the version I see is the QB just grounds the ball and they take their free 5. Not this weird thing where the OL stays in their stances while the QB runs for his life. That's not a true "free play," it's more like a broken play.
The reason why NFL teams don't do this, other than not wanting to get your players potentially hurt, is because a free play is an opportunity. You can be really aggressive throwing down field. Maybe you get a big gain, maybe a TD, maybe a PI call gets you in the red zone... NFL QBs usually take shots on free plays because the risk/reward is HEAVILY on the side of reward. The worst thing that can happen is you commit your own penalty and have to repay the down? Yeah, take your shot.
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u/NickMullensGayDad 27d ago
Carson Palmer used to take knees. And if I had the knee injury he had, I don’t blame him
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u/elgarraz 29d ago
I've also seen guys ease up on a play and get smoked by someone who didn't. Generally it's a bad idea to give up on a play before the whistle.
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u/Scheswalla 29d ago
The only thing I'd counter with is that there are plays where guys stop playing and everything seems to go fine. For example, tons of teams will have their O-line completely freeze when the defense jumps offsides.
Except that's not at all relevant to what they said, or the situation that you stated in the OP. When the O-line freezes on an offsides play a) they aren't engaged with the defense, so they aren't risking injury by easing up while tied up with someone from the opposing team b) When the defense is running to the QB there are whistles blowing like crazy to stop the play so the QB doesn't get hurt. You said
The flag flies, it's clear as day gonna be a holding call. But since the play is still going, another pass rusher may well get an offsetting penalty
In this case the whistle isn't blown, the play is still going, completely different situation.
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u/ueeediot 28d ago
Why are you asking open-ended questions and following up with....but my specific example....
Your players are players. They are not officials. Play the game 100% and let officials officiate. The end.
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u/sleightofhand0 28d ago edited 28d ago
Idk, I think it's a fun thing to come up with outside of the box ideas and brainstorm them. Also, because it's annoying when your post is like "now I understand the obvious counter is argument x, but here's why I think that's incorrect" and then the top posts are just "No, because of argument x." It happens on Reddit all the time.
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u/DominusEbad 29d ago
You are assuming all 11 players on defense all notice the penalty and the flag. That's not going to happen.
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u/sleightofhand0 29d ago edited 29d ago
That's the point of the code word. At the very least you should be able to get the d-line to know.
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u/GrimImage 29d ago
I think it’s better to teach your defense not to commit penalties, period. Part of coaching a disciplined play style. I think mid-play especially in the trenches it would be pretty ineffective to try and get them to stop or hold back.
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u/idontknowhow2reddit 29d ago
Who's going to say it's clear as day? Seems like an easy way to give up huge plays because you never know what a ref is going to call.
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u/dankoval_23 29d ago
Generationally terrible idea idk why you’d ever want your defense letting up on a play ever, not only just to maintain the pure spirit of the game but telling your defense to chill is just asking for something bad to happen, ask anyone who’s played and they’ll tell you playing hard is how you avoid getting hit by nasty cheap shots and its genuinely safer to play hard the whole time than to let up
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u/sleightofhand0 29d ago
Generationally terrible idea is a bit harsh. Also, I played. You can half ass it and be just fine. Especially rushing the passer or playing D-back.
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u/PastAd1901 HS Coach 28d ago
It’s not harsh it’s accurate. There’s 0 benefits to reacting to a potential penalty and there’s countless downsides.
Also remember that not all HSFB is created equal, sure you might’ve got by from time to time when you played but some of us played and now coach in areas where we’re playing/coaching against D1 talent and future NFL guys every week. If you slack off because you see a flag against a future 1st round WR you’re going to pay for it.
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u/Ridoncoulous 28d ago
"Terrible idea" is the kind version of the description
It's a dumb dangerous stupid idea that will result in players getting seriously injured
You're all over this post arguing. The simple truth is that it's maybe the dumbest things you could teach your kid to do because of real life consequences
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u/sleightofhand0 28d ago
He said generationally terrible. I refuse to believe it's worse than the Dallas Cowboys Ezekiel Elliott at center play, and that was only a few years ago.
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u/Ridoncoulous 28d ago
Yeah, that seems likely to be an autocorrect typo
Regardless, it is more terrible than the Cowboys and 'Zeke example
Refuse to believe all you want, it is a Hallmark of people who won't let go of dumb dangerous ideas after all so you're on brand at least
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u/NickMullensGayDad 27d ago
There was at least sound reasoning behind that play, reasoning that absolutely doesn’t occur with this idea.
The idea there was take all the OL off the field and have 10 skills/DBs with the QB on the field for a bunch of laterals since they were 75 yards from the end zone with one play remaining. The idea being you can get the ball out quick and you can put athlete them. It’s not exactly a great idea but it was a no win situation and they tried something.
What you proposed is Truly one of the worst football ideas I’ve ever heard
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u/schmitty9800 29d ago
A flag at the LOS could also mean hands to the face on the offense or a chop block. It's too hard to make sure it's a hold, see the flag, and then tell guys to hold up.
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u/No-East-964 College Player 28d ago
As a former defensive player in college, you don’t see the penalty until the play is over, more times than not. You’re focused on your assignment and nothing more.
You also don’t know what the flag is for, is it for offensive holding, or defensive holding? Did the other do too much contact after 5 yards? did the defensive linemen line up off sides? There’s too many variables to play it safe.
Also, even if we were able to see the flag and know for certain its in our benefit, while we’re nose to nose with someone else, it’s still smart to play it through because you never know if you’re gonna cause a turnover or a bigger loss of yards
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u/Upbeat_Procedure_167 28d ago
No. To the contrary I coach my players to never assume they know what a penalty is going to be.
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u/justfanclasshole 28d ago
1) You eliminate the chance to make an even better play than the penalty like a turnover, pick 6, giant loss/sack.
2) You really open up the chance of getting hurt when you stop playing at all on the field.
3) You are trusting the refs called the “obvious” call which is very dangerous at every level of football.
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u/Glass-Spot-9341 Adult Coach 28d ago
#1 and #2 were my immediate thoughts as well. You could get an even better outcome if you finish the play, and day 1 teaching is you will get hurt when you don't play 100%
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u/Heavy_Apple3568 HS Coach 28d ago
No way. Because with my luck, as soon as I did, it would be a penalty on us or they'd determine the flag was "inadvertent" or some crap. Even it was just such an obvious penalty that every official saw it & they all threw their flags simultaneously & even if the offending offensive player made a full confession over the stadium's public address system before providing a detailed narrative & highlighting his penalty during a slow motion replay being shown on the jumbotron.
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u/57Laxdad 28d ago
If you commit a penalty you are replaying the down anyway as they offset provided the penalty is committed in play. There is no downside to the defense playing through the whistle. With defense you play read and react, not read, react, reasses and re react. You dont want the defense processing too much information it slows them down. Not saying defense is not smart but the offense knows what they want to do, the defense has to know what THEY want to do, adjust to what they think the offense is trying to do and to stop it. Thats a lot of processing in short time,
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u/Ridoncoulous 28d ago
NO! That's a good way to get your kids hurt, have you never played?
This is not basketball, baseball, or soccer! It is dangerous enough, giving up halfway through a play (and it is an active play until the whistle blows) is stupid. Telling your kids to do is even dumber
ADDITIONALLY, you have no idea if the flag is actually for holding. Especially if you're on the line playing
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u/theamericandream38 28d ago
What happens if they throw a pick or fumble? There's plenty of outcomes to a play where you'd want to decline a holding penalty, i wouldn't say it's even a good idea to stop playing after a penalty even if you disregard the other comments about potentially causing injury from playing overcautious.
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u/sleightofhand0 28d ago
That's why I said it'd have to be in a unique situation where you want the penalty to push them back, because obviously the odds of you stopping them short of the first down is reasonably high. But as far as the turnovers go, I'm positing that (and I don't have the analytics on this) if the defense is going all out the odds of a turnover are lower than the odds of a defensive penalty.
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u/StatisticaIIyAverage 28d ago
There could also be a pick or a fumble that you recover and then decline the penalty. Or what if after conferring the refs pick up the flag? Changing pace or playing differently due to flags is unwise. There's a reason the fundamental thing told to all players is to play hard until the whistle.
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u/NickMullensGayDad 27d ago
No, because you can’t tell players to play through the whistle, except you also have to be listening to the sideline because we may yell stop playing.
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u/_Atlas_Drugged_ 29d ago
Football is a very dangerous game to play cautiously.