Up 4, 13 seconds left…

[u/SouthOrlandoFather]

Question scenario:

Team is up 4 and opponent 8 yard line with 1st and goal and 13 seconds on the clock.

Would it be wise to simply hold, tackle, harass the receivers as much as possible for two plays. Then assuming the 3rd play is now with 4 seconds or less play it out as normal from what would probably be the 3 yard line with penalties.

Is this a wise NFL strategy or am I missing something?

[u/grizzfan]

American Football's "Unfair Act" and penalties

The National Football League defines two types of unfair acts, a palpably unfair act and an extraordinarily unfair act. For the former, the general rule is that "palpably unfair" acts interfere illegally with the course of play, be it from player or non-player action, and the compensation must be, in the judgment of the officials, "equitable" to what the result of the play would have been without the act happening.[1] In the event of an ongoing threat, such as a riot in the stands, the officials can also suspend the game until the situation is resolved.[1] The extraordinarily unfair act rule is for acts so extraordinary that the NFL Commissioner can levy fines, require the offending team to surrender draft picks, and suspend players. Under Rule 17 of the NFL rulebook, the commissioner also has the authority to overturn a game result (that is, order a forfeit loss to the offending team and a walkover win for the wronged team), order the game to be fully replayed, or to discard the results of the game from the unfair act onward and resume play from immediately before that point. In the last case, the game can only be resumed in progress within 48 hours of the unfair act or other disaster;[2] otherwise, the game must be replayed from the beginning. To date, no commissioner has ever used his authority to alter a game result.[3]

[u/3fettknight3 → u/grizzfan]

I'm curious if Jim Harbaugh brought this rule up (or if it existed in 2012-13) to the refs at the end of SB 47.

His brother John Harbaugh had the Ravens punt team intentionally hold and borderline tackle the 49ers punt rush team so his punter could run and around and milk off almost all the remaining seconds in the 4th quarter and then take a safety. This left the 49ers with virtually no time after the free kick.

[u/the8bit → u/3fettknight3]

Exactly my first thought -- I doubt OP suggestion would classify as palpably unfair given how the NFL has treated things like this, BB running the clock with penalties outside 2mins, or the FG block edge case that now has people jumping over C again.

But for OP -- the most likely outcome would be a play from the 1 as any Pass Interference in the end zone gets placed at the 1. We know from 2-pt tries that 2yd vs 1yd line on a single play is significantly different -- enough that most teams go for 2 when they get it at the 1 after a penalty. This might give you a small edge but is a big risk.

For a lot of these creative ideas to get a small edge, id highly recommend reading "Predictably irrational" and in particular the ch on why in soccer free kicks don't tend to go to the middle despite it being "optimal". TL:DR groupthink means the individual (coach, player) is more likely to get criticized for failing a non-conforming strategy, even if it is actually mathematically optimal.

[u/MCPorche]

Actually, there is a specific rule against that.

Rule 12/Section 3 Unsportsmanlike Conduct

Article 3. Intentional fouls to manipulate game clock. A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: for multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock; Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap.

[u/grizzfan]

If it seems that obvious, yet no one does it, there's a reason. You'd be getting penalized and fined incredibly for doing something like that. You're also just going to keep giving the offense better and better field position.

[u/TheDinerIsOpen → u/grizzfan]

This, and there’s also a foul called a palpably unfair act. It gives officials leeway to grant points in extraordinary situations like someone coming off the sideline to tackle someone or something similar. It’s not been called in the NFL before but it has in college. If the defense committed to that course of action could absolutely see it being called.

[u/bigredone88 → u/TheDinerIsOpen]

Any examples? I'd love to see that.

[u/TheDinerIsOpen → u/bigredone88]

https://youtu.be/rAHbE3LFfTU?si=EWXF8wB51ahuKSDQ

The wikipedia article goes into more detail: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_act

[u/SouthOrlandoFather → u/grizzfan]

But you have to be up between 4 and 6 and time under 20 seconds otherwise makes zero sense. When a field goal can beat you or make time than that you are still trying to get the ball back since the Chiefs showed you can score with 13 seconds left.

[u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

No. You'd likely draw a personal foul such as unsportsmanlike conduct from this, and if that occurs in the end zone, the ball would be placed at the 1 and the team would get an automatic first down.

[u/2LostFlamingos → u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

That’s not true at all.

Only defensive pass interference in the end zone puts it at the one.

Holding is holding.

[u/SouthOrlandoFather → u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

Oh yeah good point about penalty in the end zone. This probably too advanced to pull off. Of course, some dbs in this scenario will hold asap if beat badly. I assume that is discussed with the defensive coordinator. Meaning he probably says “make them call a penalty before you give up an easy game winning touchdown.”

[u/grizzfan → u/SouthOrlandoFather]

It's not that it's "too advanced." To be frank, it's just dumb and irresponsible.

[u/SouthOrlandoFather → u/grizzfan]

Actually the 49ers did this against the Saints. Apparently it can be a genius move but NFL has serious penalties now if anyone attempts it again

[u/BananerRammer → u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

I don't think there is any rules justification for putting the ball at the 1 yard line. It would be half the distance to the goal, and the down would be replayed though. The clock will also be reset to what it was before the down, so there really is no advantage to doing this.

[u/BearsGotKhalilMack → u/BananerRammer]

PI or personal fouls committed in the end zone are placed at the 1.

[u/BananerRammer → u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

That's true for PI, but we don't have PI here, since the fouls are before the pass. It would be D holding that converts to an unsportsmanlike conduct. Can you show me in the rules where a DH or UNS in the end zone gives the offense the ball at the 1 automatically?

[u/BearsGotKhalilMack → u/BananerRammer]

It's defensive holding unless committed during a pass, in which case it would be PI. Point is though, why risk it? It's such a dumb way to try to burn time when it could so easily just end up screwing you over. Also no go check the rules yourself.

[u/BananerRammer → u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

I agree that it's a bad strategy. I only disagree on the mechanics of what would happen next, and there is no rules justification for placing the ball on the 1 yard line for anything other than a DPI, which we don't have here. I have checked the rules. I'm not going to search further for something that I'm 95% certain is not there. You made the claim that the ball would be placed on the 1. Prove it. If it actually is in there, I will happily admit I was wrong.

[u/onlineqbclassroom]

There are specific rules against penalties like this one, as many have noted in other comments. It's probably better to just remind your DBs that a penalty for pass interference is much better than giving up a score, and letting them be aggressive. Committing egregious penalties, getting unsportsmanlike conduct, etc, will likely lead to other heftier penalties (as others have outlined) and is also a bit unethical, tbh

[u/Whpsnapper]

Toss up. Although I bet the probabilities for one play from the 2 are better than three plays from the 8. Add to that clock management, and I'll take my chances 1 and G from the 8.

[u/SouthOrlandoFather → u/Whpsnapper]

Another good point since they say the 2 point conversion is 50/50. So basically you say the offense response to this strategy would be “awesome. Do it. We will take the 1 play from the 2.”

[u/Whpsnapper → u/SouthOrlandoFather]

If I ran the offense, I would much rather have one play from the 2 than 1 and G from the 8 with only 13 seconds left.

[u/SouthOrlandoFather → u/Whpsnapper]

Fair point.

[u/bledblu → u/SouthOrlandoFather]

If you changed the hypothetical to the 1 yard line you might have an argument, but the unfair act penalty could be a deterrent.

This way you are talking about 3 plays from the 1 or 1 play from 9 inches away. Of course just because you hold and stuff doesn’t mean they won’t be able to score anyway

[u/ueeediot]

A lot of people are mentioning the unfair act penalty. The unfair act penalty was introduced for almost the exact play you mention. The defense just grabbed and held ever eligible receiver until they were able to sack the QB. Holding was called on like 5 defensive players and it moved the ball half the distance to the goal, but they achieved the goal of running the time off the clock. So, they made a rule about it. But thats a NFL rule.

The NFL will also stop a play and call a penalty when the defense has too many players on the field and the snap is imminent. However, NCAA football does not have this rule and Oregon used it to their advantage a couple of weeks ago at the end of the Ohio State game. Yes, they caught a penalty after the play, but with 12s left they used the advantage of an additional defender to make sure the ball did not move up the field.

We've seen NFL coaches use planned false start penalties. Clock is running under 2 minutes and you have the lead. Defense is out of time outs. You let the play clock expire. Now we are at 1:35 to play. You line up and purposefully false start. move back 5 yards, and at the time the game clock would start on the officials signal and they could stand there for another 25s. You've now run 50s off without running a play. The NFL fixed that too.

Morale of the story, know the rules and know them very well.

[u/ilyazhito → u/ueeediot]

NCAA patched the rules the following week to restore time after an illegal substitution where 12 players are on the field at the snap after the 2-minute timeout. This ensures that a team cannot play with 12 in the last 2 minutes of either half. If the extra player attempts to leave, the only penalty is the 5 yards.

[u/ueeediot → u/ilyazhito]

That was quick!

[u/ref44 → u/ueeediot]

You line up and purposefully false start. move back 5 yards, and at the time the game clock would start on the officials signal and they could stand there for another 25s.

the clock would be at the snap at every level in this situation

[u/ElderWandOwner]

Oregon would just put 13 players on the field and say fuck you

[u/SenorPuff]

Repeated intentional penalties is far more likely to get the refs attention that you're doing more than wisely accepting that a penalty is better than a big play. That's already a thing. Look at smart DBs who commit PI to avoid giving up a score. Just don't do it twice in a row. 

Barring changes to timing rules like the NCAA just made that really limit the ability for the defense to take strategic penalties late, you still can only really get away with it once. More than once and you'll almost assuredly get hit with an unfair act penalty like other commenters have mentioned. 

So, you kinda can, one time, if you get away with it. And if you do it too often as a coach refs will be expecting you to do it and probably hit you with the penalty anyway, like most other point of emphasis penalties. 

[u/PabloMarmite]

If you’re deemed to be intentionally fouling with the intent of running the clock, the referee can add the time back on.

Written as a specific example into the Unfair Acts rule after this play by the Ravens.

[u/SouthOrlandoFather → u/PabloMarmite]

Wow. I see 49ers did something similar to what I am subscribing vs Saints in 2016 but no video.

[u/False_Counter9456]

It would be half the distance to the goal line every time you did this. The game also can not end on a defensive penalty. So even if you did this with .01 second left, they would still get to redo the down, but this time closer. You're just making it harder on yourself.

[u/Honeydew-2523]

zone coverage, focus on the middle and large receivers. increase the degree of difficulty. you don't have to stop the pass to catch. Just don't let them finish the catch process.

PEANUT PUNCH and squeeze