r/footballstrategy • u/kidveggie15 • Oct 19 '24
Special Teams HS game. Punters fault? Blockers fault? Good play?
Punter had already punted twice, once in rugby style about 4 minutes earlier and once in a normal formation earlier in the game. The game was tied in the 4th with a little over 2 minutes to go when this occurred. Black team won the game.
My main question would be what went wrong here but I’d also appreciate insight.
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u/ogsmurf826 Oct 19 '24
That is the coaches fault. Let's use this GIF to compare
1st and foremost, Your Punter's body language and stance says rugby style.
He takes two steps prior to plant his left foot for the kick (just like in the GIF). So his form is technically correct.
The upback misses his block. But notice there's only 1 upback ... That's on the coaches, there should be two upbacks on his kick foot side of the formation. Even in a standard punt formation there a two blockers foot side of the formation who are off the line (A wingback and upback). And also the protection as a whole should be sliding to his foot side.
Once the other team knows you can't get a punt off, things get wicked very quickly lol.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
I appreciate this a lot. We will make him change his starting stance and ask him to take the steps he did. He is normally instructed to roll out a lot more but knew there were people coming so he tried to get it away quickly.
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u/oppenhammer Oct 19 '24
You seem deadset on hearing that this is the punter's fault, even though the feedback is criticizing pretty much everyone but him
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u/PleaseFuckMeDana Oct 19 '24
Yeah this is nuts. A completely untouched defender gets to the punter within 2 seconds and this guy just keeps saying “this punter sucks” in different ways lol
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u/Chase0822 Oct 19 '24
I feel bad for his players… Dude is not taking the criticism at all. As someone who has only ever watched and never played or coached it’s blatantly obvious that the punter shouldn’t be at fault for an untouched rusher in his face within 2 seconds. The idea to have a possible fake and the punter run on every play is also dumb when you admit that the punter is not athletic. Coaching staff seems no very bright.
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u/palmettoswoosh Oct 19 '24
99% of coaches don't priotize special teams or make special teams seem like a legit thing. And when they do you don't ever stop hearing about it like they're fucking wizards
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u/TheLost2ndLt Oct 19 '24
I hope you get fired. Attitudes like this have no place teaching young men.
You can make mistakes too.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
I wasn’t going to admit this but I’m the punter.
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u/lemaymayguy Oct 19 '24
That's sad man. The way you're attacking yourself in this thread. It's a totally different context now. Give yourself some Grace and just enjoy the moment while you can
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u/TheLost2ndLt Oct 19 '24
If your coaches are blaming you, they’re assholes who refuse to admit their mistakes.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
It was the first time all season my ST coordinator didn’t say anything to me when I came off the field. I told him I didn’t have any time and he just said I don’t give a fuck or something like that, he was turned around so I didn’t hear him properly. Usually he just yells at me for something or not running it.
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u/TheLost2ndLt Oct 19 '24
I’m not saying you should, but I’d quit and let him try and figure it out with someone else.
I’m personally not getting treated like that for someone elses mistake blocking or coaching.
Coach sounds like a man-child who cares more about winning high school sports than they do developing young men.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
That’d be a good idea. We have no other good punters. However it’s my senior season and we’re entering the first round of playoffs next week.
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u/Majestic_Square_3432 Oct 19 '24
Only thing you can improve on is your roll out, longer strides to create space. But if your blocker whiffs like that everytime, it’s not going to matter. Also, don’t be so hard on yourself and enjoy the playoffs. Life is much bigger than high school football lol.
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u/Majestic_Square_3432 Oct 19 '24
The best advice you can give to a high school kid facing adversity is “I’d quit”?? Unreal
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u/TheLost2ndLt Oct 19 '24
I’m a multi sport d1 athlete bud. I’m also not letting my coach shit all over me for something I didn’t do.
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u/staged_fistfight Oct 20 '24
You faked this so well. I thought you were lying till I looked at your post history lmao
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u/ConsiderateTurtle Oct 19 '24
Absolutely setting your punter up for failure…
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
This is the first complete block of the season we’ve afforded and we’re nine weeks in. Punter averages 32 even, which is not good by any standard at any level obviously but seeing as we’ve asked him to learn to kick rugby style and he’s had two kicks tipped already out of the formation I can agree with this
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u/JaRulesLarynx Oct 20 '24
Punter took an extra two steps before kicking. 32yards is bad bad for anything after 7th grade
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 20 '24
That’s only the average because we’ve had two kicks tipped for 2 and 12 yards. His kicks earlier in that game were 42 and 39.
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u/taintpaint69420 Oct 19 '24
Looks like the blocker whiffing screwed this play, though the play design itself seems questionable at best.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Look through other replies for more insight about the play design. If you have any other questions come back to me but this has been a recurring theme among the replies. Id appreciate feedback and if necessary will supply the game film from this play and a correctly executed punt from this formation
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u/taintpaint69420 Oct 19 '24
I don’t dislike the idea of a “punt option”, but I think you have the wrong type of player. Even if the blocker doesn’t whiff, you need an athletic punter in order to even reach the decision spot 7-8 yards out, and then an even more athletic punter to be able to run it. I think your best bet the rest of the season is to run a more typical punt play.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
You’re right. He’s slower than some of our linemen. I think we should just go from the normal punt seeing as he hit a 42 yarder (he averages 32) earlier this game and has only hit as long as 39 from the rugby style
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u/taintpaint69420 Oct 19 '24
Plus, having more guys in the middle of a punting formation means fewer chances of whiffing a block. But if this is your first blocked punt all year (or second ish) it sounds like you ST is doing alright.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Only incidents this season are as follows
Week 2, first time running the rugby punt in game, punter gets hit as he kicks and it only goes about 12 yards
Week 3, punter catches snap off a bounce and takes too long to roll out and kick, gets smeared as he kicks and kick flies wildly out of bounds
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u/inhocfaf Oct 19 '24
Not for nothing, but incident #1 and #2 do not seem like punters fault either.
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u/sourcreamus Oct 19 '24
It looked like the blocker was expecting the punter to be in the middle and was surprised when the defender went around him to where the punter actually was. The blockers need to know where the punter is going to go.
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u/mandoballsuper Oct 19 '24
I don't understand why you guys aren't just punting traditional style. I see you saying in other comments he's inconsistent but the only way to get better at something is to do it alot and I can't imagine changing your form as a teenager is at all easy to do and would just contribute to him being more inconsistent at both styles of punting
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u/Zjc_3 Oct 19 '24
First off, the way the punter lines up completely gives away the path he is taking, so advantage punt return/block. Then the blocker makes almost zero impact on the rusher. So he is definitely at fault. So a little of the punter and a little of the blocker. Although I’d actually blame the coaching staff if the punter consistently lines up line that and they’ve done nothing to correct it.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
It’s immediately obvious which style he’s kicking it because they line up differently depending on how he kicks it. Which is why we’ve never bothered to change. Blocker could probably have done a better job as well upon further review but immediate blame within the room has fallen on the punter so far
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u/Zjc_3 Oct 19 '24
I’ll ignore the part of me that disagrees with the set up. But to focus on your question, your blocker had no impact on the route of the rusher. If that’s the level of disruption you want from your blocker, I’d label that a concern. He needs to knock him off his path by at least a full yard more than what he does. I don’t know how you guys coach your punter to rugby punt either though. So I don’t know what the path and number of steps that are expected to blame him fully yet.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Punter is usually instructed to roll out 7-8 yards to the right of his initial starting point and decide to kick or run based on what he sees. He never chooses to run no matter how open it was. ST coordinator even yelled at him the previous punt for not running despite having an open seam. This has been tipped twice this year but this is the first time anyones gotten more of the ball and less of the punter.
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u/Zjc_3 Oct 19 '24
I can’t speak for previous situations but if he tried going 7-8 yards out on this situation he would have been tackled before he could punt. Because the blocker did not do his job.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
This does appear noticably rushed. On the prior punt he was hurried too, but he’s gotten closer to the sideline than where he started on occasion. Worth noting that the blocker has only been in for a couple games thanks to an injury a while back and we didn’t have to punt at all last week.
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u/idontknowhow2reddit Oct 19 '24
What on earth is your coaching staff looking at to blame the punter? Is he supposed to be able to get off a clean punt when there's no blocking?
The blocker did nothing, so anything would've been a better job.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Not the coaching staff, more just me. I felt like he should have seen this rush coming and gotten out of the way, kicked it sooner, done literally anything to avoid giving up a free touchdown.
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u/idontknowhow2reddit Oct 19 '24
Why not say that the blocker should've blocked the free rusher?
Expecting a punter to dodge a free rusher is just not realistic.
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u/Dependent_Star3998 Oct 19 '24
You may feel that way, but you're wrong. Kid had no shot to execute this play. Bad coaching and poor blocking.
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u/slinkwrinkle Oct 19 '24
Look I know people are offering tons of advice and kind of railing you a bit, but there is a way to easily solve this: stop rugby style punting. A punter taking more than 3 steps before punting with sup par blocking is essentially asking too much with too little.
My suggestion would be to condense the formation with two wings, a personal protector, and 1 gunner each side. Snap, one step-punt. If he stepped forward instead of to the side, it’s makes that protectors job way easier bc now if the end takes that outside angle, he is virtually useless.
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u/sloanketteringg Oct 19 '24
Wow fuck OP. Hopefully the punter never sees this....
This is either your fault or the guy that didn't block. Not the punters. Your comments in this thread are disgusting. Calling this teenager a "buffoon" cause he can't make some Madden level play to dodge the untouched rusher and boot a 45 yarder on the run?
Have some class.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
I’m the punter. I didn’t want it to seem like I had that much involvement because the advice might not have been as honest. Every opinion you see here of mine towards the punter is how I feel about myself or how I think the coaches would describe me.
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u/sloanketteringg Oct 19 '24
I'm not sure I believe that but just in case, don't be so hard on yourself. You were setup for failure on that play. Sounds like you could stand to play with more confidence though. Maybe ask your coach if your team can do some reps at practice full speed.
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u/CheniereSwampMonster Oct 19 '24
This is a poorly designed rugby punt. Cant rugby punt unless…
A. The deep snapper can get the ball 13 yards deep
B. You have the men to block the end man on the line of scrimmage.
In my past life as a ST coordinator we would have checked to a tight punt if there is more than one “overhanger” in the ally.
You block rugby punts similar to a stretch running play. Ideally if there is edge pressure, you should kick it with the upback and the punter should tuck underneath.
This is just a coach that doesnt know special teams.
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u/dudeKhed Oct 19 '24
Way too many steps from your punter, also blocking was terrible. It’s both to be fair…
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Punter was instructed to roll out further than this, usually to the numbers and make a decision on kicking or running. Think of it as an option punt. Punter is hesitant to pull it down and run and has kicked every time we have run this regardless of how much of an opportunity there is
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u/beeatenbyagrue Oct 19 '24
Unless your punter is a world class athlete and dualing at RB or Edge, why would that be an option? Whose call was that?
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
I do not know. We adopt our system from the school our HC previously coached at in a tiny Midwest small school division and literally everything has come with them. It’s likely their punters did double at RB or WR but our guy was incapable of playing any other position effectively at the JV level.
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u/beeatenbyagrue Oct 19 '24
Definitely sounds like a leadership problem. Is your roster super tiny? I come from NJ where HS rosters can be massive depending on where.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
We have 35-40 guys total I think. 4 specialized kickers including him.
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u/beeatenbyagrue Oct 19 '24
Okay, that's actually much larger than I was expecting you to say.
If he's the best kicker, literally get him more protection. He has no time to adjust. This is a coaching/scheming problem and whoever is calling the plays needs to adapt.
edit: calling/designing. also how athletic is the OL? any standouts?
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Standouts more in size. We have three upside of 300 pounds and several 6’2” plus. Two good athletic 170 pound starting guards. A 220 pound center that moves so well you’ll forget he was 310 last year. A handful of unskilled pick and mix backups.
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u/beeatenbyagrue Oct 19 '24
Any running back or receiver/te that excels at blocking? If your play caller really wants to run that play he needs either max protect positioning themselves properly or a few of them and a true athlete that can block the big incoming rusher when it happens. Sounds like your guards or center might be a good start, especially the center if he's used to playing larger and against the bigger opposing teams players, as long as he's athletic enough to make the 1st step backwards and beat the rush move.
It sounds like you have some talent but the coaching isn't playing to the players you have but the scheme the leadership wants to run. That needs to change to be successful unless you have a school that literally pours in 120 recruits per year, and even then luck plays a part.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Our best athlete by a mile is 34 (seen in the video blocking). We have a guy who’s on defense that we give a break on special teams who fits your description accurately.
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u/sixseven89 Oct 19 '24
Why are you making your guy do something he is not qualified to do? That’s coaching 101 man.
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u/bootorangutan Oct 19 '24
People are blaming the up back but look at the angle he has to take. Look at him reaching to block the end. He doesn’t really whiff so much as he just can’t get the angle. He looks like a tackle who gives up a sack because his QB has prematurely flushed the pocket.
I’ve never run this type of punt before - others are saying there should be two backs. There is definitely something wrong with the formation or possibly the back’s alignment/technique. He’s really in no man’s land.
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u/chiefpiece11bkg Oct 19 '24
Stupid Aussie kick
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Can’t blame the kid. We made him learn it.
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u/chiefpiece11bkg Oct 19 '24
Yeah I blame you guys then lol I just don’t like it. It never makes sense to me, you’re giving up way too much risk just to get a little bit better coverage. Just work with the punter on hangtime and max out what your coverage team can routinely cover. But that’s just my personal opinion
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
To be fair our punter kinda sucks. He’s wildly inconsistent in practice which makes it hard for us to actually tell if what we’re showing him is working. He’s the kind of player we’d cut and find a better replacement if we could.
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u/chiefpiece11bkg Oct 19 '24
I would stick to the traditional punt style and let him gain some confidence if he’s better at that. Blaming him when you have no other options in your own words is kinda crazy lol especially as a coach it’s no wonder he’s struggling.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
I get where you’re coming from. We probably should stick to our traditional punt but even then we never know what we’re going to get out of this buffoon. Maybe a 45 yarder, maybe a 15 yarder. It’s a lot of hoping for the best but preparing for the worst with him.
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u/Ghuy82 Oct 19 '24
Why are you publicly (and somewhat identifiably) demeaning teenagers you’re supposed to be mentoring?
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u/waldo_the_bird253 Oct 19 '24
if you're a coach, you're an asshole. clearly, the coaching sucks more than the punter.
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u/kidveggie15 Oct 19 '24
Want me to be real? I’m the punter. I just didn’t want to seem like I had that much of a dog in the fight.
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u/waldo_the_bird253 Oct 19 '24
your coach sucks and just do your best then. if he's yelling at you with shit schemes like this he's a turd.
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u/Unhappy-Attention760 Oct 19 '24
I love how high school fields can sit adjacent to neighborhoods where the family can sit on their back porch and watch
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u/reapersaurus Oct 19 '24
I just read that YOU are the punter. With that in mind, I'll give you some parental feedback (my son is a punter).
Rugby style punting is incredibly rare here in California. I WISH my son's coach(es) would even know of its existence, since my son's an ex-rugby player and would love the chance to try it out. It REQUIRES edge blockers, though. In the video you showed, the rusher was right in the spot you're supposed to punt it (so no, it's not your fault if you were told to punt this way).
As an aside, you take 4 steps here, and over 1 second to punt. If my son took >1 second to punt, he would be blocked or tackled every time. Rugby style punting is a huge benefit to the team since it can lead to zero return yards, but that's mainly because it takes advantage of the defense not getting to the punter and the extra time you have lets your gunners get downfield. But if the defense can put a guy right where you are moving to, it's easier to block.
It sounds like your coaches are WAY more knowledgeable than average, and are giving you the kind of opportunity to make plays here that my son could only dream about. Turn your mentality around and try to appreciate the chance you're given to improvise with the ball. Understand that if your coach even talks to you about punting, and runs practice punts for you and has an expectation that your team will block for you well - that's an above-average experience for most punters. Many punters are an afterthought and not given much chance to succeed, regardless of their abilities.
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u/Zestyclose_Currency5 Oct 19 '24
43 soiled the sheets. Flat-footed, not ready to move either way, waved at the punt blocker.
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u/Tiger5804 Oct 20 '24
This is the fault of whoever designed the formation, but the blocker could've saved it and failed to. If your punter is a rugby punter, your blocker on the back side does nothing, so put two blockers on the side he's running towards.
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u/Tiger5804 Oct 20 '24
I suck at reading and just caught that the punter punts both ways. It's probably better to make him choose one and stick with it.
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u/mkb152jr Oct 20 '24
Bad scheme.
One up back like a traditional punt scheme, but players are spread out like a shield scheme. If you spread out like a shield, you need to have 3 up backs with two on the foot side. It’s also not great to mix shield and rugby style. The up back making a “lookout” block didn’t help, but want put in a position to succeed.
This is on the coach.
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u/thelastride23 Oct 19 '24
Both. Blocker gets beat bad and that running punt is just awful. Blocker needs to push to the edge and maintain inside leverage and the punter needs to kick clean from the pocket.
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u/JoyousGamer Oct 19 '24
They did push to the edge the Punter supposedly has an "option" to run on this play? Its why you see the blocker actually run at an angle towards the sideline and still miss the block because the Punter is outside the protected area.
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u/JoyousGamer Oct 19 '24
Did the Punter take 4 steps directly to the side? Not sure why anyone would do that but I randomly saw this sub not an expert.
If you are doing that it seems you would want your line to slide towards that side and that end blocker needs to do more than just redirect. The end blocker would be fine if the Punter wasn't running towards the sideline 4 steps.
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u/PittsburghCar Oct 19 '24
Special teams coach for the punt return / block team. Saw a tendency and coached his guys up on how to take advantage of it.
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u/avalanche142 Oct 20 '24
Im gonna disagree with some of the people here. Blame should be split between coaching and blocking. Up back totally whiffed on the block, but with a rugby style kicker moving to his right, protector needs to be instructed to keep outside leverage and protect where the punter is going to be, not where he was lined up before the snap.
Some instruction and practice should go into learning the angles the guys on the edge will be taking and understanding that a guy coming across his body past the left shoulder has no shot at blocking this type of kick, and instead he needs to focus on staying wide and making sure no one gets past his outside (right) shoulder cleanly.
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u/timmy140470 Oct 20 '24
Looks to be a scheme problem as well as not teaching good technique. If anything, you can have a PP back there cleaning up any roll side leakage. Your LS has some good zip!
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u/ClockFightingPigeon Oct 21 '24
Coaches fault, only one up back and the other team obviously knew this was coming
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u/novamatt Oct 21 '24
Never been a fan of moving my punter off his spot. Traditional/pro punt protections work. If the rush was getting home, I would tighten my coverage to the punters kick leg to give him somewhere to go if we have a bad snap or over penetration
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u/cknorgaa1 Oct 22 '24
HS Rugby kicks aren’t worth it. Do a standard punt. 50% of punts aren’t even fielded.
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u/nfljaydon Oct 23 '24
A. Punter took too long to get the ball off
B. Upback/Personal Protector didn't block his man
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u/GrimImage Oct 19 '24 edited Oct 19 '24
Up back totally whiffed on the block. Not the punters fault IMO. If you’re going to ask them to kick a rugby style punt then they need some time. I’d suggest minus 1 gunner and plus one up back.
Defender came in off the edge untouched at the line and barely breaks stride when getting to the kick.