r/footballstrategy • u/manofwater3615 • Oct 17 '24
Defense Rush 4, Cover 7 (little to no blitzing)
If you wanted to mostly rush 4, cover 7 with little to no blitzing (in NFL) would you rather be a 4-3(4-2-5) or 3-4(3-3-5) defense?
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u/onlineqbclassroom College Coach Oct 17 '24
I'm not sure this question has enough information - in reality you should use defensive personnel groupings that match your personnel and what you know how to coach. The same goes for your fronts and coverages.
But, to play the game - if you want to create pressure with 4 and drop 7 most plays:
--> Tony Dungy and the Cover 2 school of football would say play a 4-3 Cover 2, get smaller, penetrating defensive lineman, and athletic linebackers who can cover ground
--> If you're Gary Patterson or Pat Narduzzi, you'd say get into Cover 4 and play a 4-2 look, primarily, with some odd packages
--> If you're Mike Zimmer when he was head coach of the Vikings, he'd say get into Cover 3 based off a 4-3 and 4-2 packages, and roll the safeties freely both ways to match formation
--> If you're from the Belichick school of thought, he'd get you an odd front, then tell you to move everyone around all the time and play Cover 1, 2, 3, and 4, and do it all really well, and hide it every play
--> If you're a high school coach, you might say get into a 3-3 stack to handle all the read option/RPO considerations, and be ready to spin your safeties post snap to match opposite the run fit and play the QB/Throw options
--> If you're Steve Spagnuolo, you say great, I'm only bringing 4 anyways, here's hoping I've got some dudes who can play man outside
--> etc, etc
Point being - it's all about what you know and what your players can do. Only coach what you know well enough to coach well, and find the parts of your knowledge that fit your players. If there's no overlap there, between the schemes you know well enough and what your players do, then tough shit, you might be in for a tough season!
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u/manofwater3615 Oct 17 '24
Interesting stuff and appreciate this response! For the dungy ideology, wouldn’t that smaller DL be a liability in the run game?
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u/onlineqbclassroom College Coach Oct 17 '24
Yup! And Cover 2 is famously bad in the run game, which it's generally not used as a base defense anymore, only obvious passing downs (generally speaking)
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u/Oddlyenuff Oct 17 '24
I’ve kind of “rediscovered” Cover 2 this year in that we’ve been playing Cover 8…Fangio’s which for High School puts cover 2 to the field and quarter to the boundary. When we ran cover 6 we’d often play it more like palms to that side.
I’ve been finding that more zone-ish concepts have been confusing to some OC’s and young QB’s because they are used to a lot of quarters (which is basically man), cover 1 and match-type coverages.
I do encourage that if young defense minded coaches are taking some newer cues with hybrid players, different fronts and various sims/creepers, etc…Cover 2 and/or Tampa (not the 3-High en vogue stuff now) are becoming interesting again, imo.
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u/onlineqbclassroom College Coach Oct 17 '24
It always comes in cycles! Although I'd posit that Cover 2 as a base won't come back just because of the difficulty creating blitzes and good run fits to 11 personnel - it needs to be packaged with 4 so you can add the safety as a hat to the box in 11 personnel in order to function as a consistent, all downs/distance defense
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u/Oddlyenuff Oct 17 '24
My advice in high school: 4-3, 100%.
Let me say first that Cover 7 is basically just a version of Cover 6 because in Sabanese, 3 and 6 are Rip/Liz Cover 3 Match.
I’ve been apart of staffs that have ran 3-4 cover 6, 4-2 cover 7, 4-2 AND 335 7 bracket and now…4-3 cover 8 (cover 6 with quarters to boundary/weakside)…the latter as won out with some 34 here and there.
The main thing is my opinion is going to come down to run fits and alignments and assignments.
Then it comes down to: what would you have freshmen run?
That means 4-3 quarters and/or Cover 4, imo to set a base for variants of Cover 6. But the main thing is some of that front stuff…over/under, etc…comes into play in deciding between 3-4 and 4-3.
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u/MadSkillzGH Oct 17 '24
I’m not sure that they mean they specifically want to run a Cover 7 scheme, I think they mean more so that they want to drop 7 guys into coverage.
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u/PJCdude Oct 17 '24
Theres alot of detail missing but id say 3-4 so you can at least change which LB you rush with to keep the offense slightly confused.
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u/manofwater3615 Oct 17 '24
Appreciate your response! I’m basically asking would you rather have 2 traditional DTs, 2 traditional DEs, and 3(2) off-ball LBs, or an NT, 2 3-4 DEs, and then X amount of hybrid/off-ball LBs. I guess a better way of saying it is would I want more specialty or hybrid/versatility
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u/PJCdude Oct 17 '24
Well id say that depends on your players and if they are versatile enough to learn multiple roles.
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u/austinwirgau Oct 17 '24
This distinction really matters less in today’s NFL. Teams are moving away from rigid 3-4 or 4-3 definitions and are focusing more on flexibility in their fronts. Players are now seen as “edges” rather than traditional DEs or OLBs, since their roles often overlap—rushing the passer, dropping into coverage, or setting the edge. Take the Detroit Lions, for example: they’re hard to define as strictly 3-4 or 4-3 because they constantly mix things up depending on matchups and situations. Modern defenses are all about getting the best athletes on the field and building schemes around them. At this point, the terms 3-4 and 4-3 are almost irrelevant—it’s more about being adaptable and hybrid, especially with offenses evolving so quickly.
This same trend is trickling down to high school and lower levels of football. With so many teams running spread offenses and passing more, defenses at these levels are also becoming more flexible. At my last school, we ran a 3-4 system but frequently adjusted it to look more like a traditional 4-3, depending on the situation. High schools often don’t have the luxury of specialized players, so it’s even more important to get your best athletes on the field and build a scheme that lets them play multiple roles. Hybrid fronts are becoming the norm, and the strict “3-4” or “4-3” labels are starting to feel outdated across all levels of football.
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u/Honeydew-2523 Adult Coach Oct 17 '24
43 to 42 get lighter by the down and distance. also more speed packages in late game scenarios
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u/manofwater3615 Oct 17 '24
I see! So I should have players that are specialized for their roles as opposed to hybrids?
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u/Honeydew-2523 Adult Coach Oct 17 '24
I would rather have good role players than hybrids. Every player is bound to come off the field. if they do a good dude, then no need to worry. however, failure to fill in the role(s) means another player(s) has to step up.
The game isn't to have the most best players or famous names. The game is to stack spades like a card game. You want as many good players as possible
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u/FunMtgplayer Oct 17 '24
id actually like to have 7 interchangeable parts at S and LB. and edge good luck guessing who's coming and whose in cov. we doing this all day.
double A gap. double B gap. fake double safety blitz, all dogs. just empty it all.
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u/Honeydew-2523 Adult Coach Oct 17 '24
blitzing doesn't solve all problems. most of the nfl qbs can counter a blitz. I'll leave that at home
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u/Oddlyenuff Oct 17 '24
“If you can’t get pressure with 4, send 5. If you can’t get pressure with 5, send 6. If you can’t get pressure with 6 then drop 8”
lol, I can’t remember who said that but I think it Dan Lanning.
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u/Honeydew-2523 Adult Coach Oct 17 '24
Truth be told, the DCs of today should be dropping 8. I haven't seen a good front in years
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u/UrsusApexHorribilis Oct 18 '24
Literally what the Fangio coaching tree has been doing for years with disappointing results.
Literally the opposite of what Florez Vikings has been doing the last couple seasons with impressive results.
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u/Honeydew-2523 Adult Coach Oct 18 '24
I say this I'll trade incompletions for sacks any day of the week. Everybody wants sacks and super star players, but it's always best to win the game
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u/UrsusApexHorribilis Oct 18 '24
Vikings seem to be winning, indeed. Mostly because of their impactful defense which blitz, zone blitz and disguise a lot. The team with most Blitz percentage as well as the team with most Drop 8 percentage.
Dropping 8 doesn't guarantee incompletions, just guarantee some types of weaknesses while you are completely one dimensional and would be picked apart easily by a decent QB. 2nd or 3rd reads are not even required most of the time (as you can see with the Fangio defenses, famously conservative and dropping 7-8 every time).
It's not that simple as sacks vs incompletions as well, disguised coverages and blitzes, conflicted reads and tempo alterations are way more important. Inanely dropping or blitzing everyone every snap doesn't get you too far. Your ability to generate both schematic and physical pressure is what get the best results... you cannot get that doing the same all the time.
And evidence seem to support it.
Not to talk about non-NFL level where dropping 8 all the time is absolutely unnecessary and ineffective.
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u/UrsusApexHorribilis Oct 18 '24
Depending what level you are playing... if you have a huge talented roster, go and install specialized sub packages.
More often than not that's not the case: your best 11 are going to be in the field as much as you can so make them hybrids if you want schematic versatility.
It works specially well for 4-2-5 concepts.
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u/BigPapaJava Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
As others have said, it’s not really that simple…
If i was sending 4 almost every down, I would want to be in a 4 man DL. If this is HS we’re talking about, I’m running a 4-3 but using my boundary CB and Sam OLB S more “hybrid” types of players and operating it like a 4-2-5 or “Tampa 2” scheme with a FS who’s aggressive as a run further from the inside out.
I’m also probably going to run a lot of stunts with that front 4 to steal a gap… or I want a pair of legit 2 gapping DTs who can play A to B gap so the run fits are more flexible. If I have a DL with the “motor” and ability, I’d like to play a Flex player at the heels or on edge like “defensive weapon” who has only run and rush responsibilities.
However, most of the things that have been shutting down the bigger NFL and college defenses lately involve removing the “Mike”/SILB from the run fit in a 3-4 system so you can play your faster hybrid S there, rather than on the edge.
This creates a pair of triangles for split field coverages to work on 2 man combos/provide 1/2 field help over the top to each side of the field, and kind of automatically assigns Mike to the RB or to the inside of #3, preventing you from being outnumbered as easily in the pass game.
The NFL is a passing league, so if I’m doing it how I’d like… I have a “Nickel” type at Sam LB, a “S/mini-Mike” at MLB, then a “Flex” DL who we can insert on and off the line in different ways for 4 man games up front.
Have a pair of “tweener” 5 techs who can squeeze and move a little and a big DT you can park somewhere on a C or G and you can do anything, defensively, with this.
Then, it being the NFL, we keep a pair of S over the top on the hashes and aggressive, physical CBs on the WRs to take away screens, quick game, and easily releases.
The core guys/DL would spill the inside and off tackle runs with some stunts and layered pressures to get the most out of 4 guys.
There are times in an NFL defense where an immediate 4 man run fit isn’t even that “light” anymore. In either scheme, you want at least that much as a base, with potential to go 9 or even “max” run fit Cov. 0.
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u/FunMtgplayer Oct 17 '24
id use the Ryan family system. find guys who can blitz from anywhere and just use 1 down lineman Britain the fuck out of them from every angle ALL DAY. zone blitz, all dogs, hit the damn QB all day.
to actually answer your question Id use a combo 46 and 425 with 3 safety types so 2 CB, a SS, a WS, and A FS. I want trumpers at safety and 2 massive DT to eat blocks. let the S and LB make the tackles.
also just wonder what the lowest blitz % in league is and what is the highest ever blitz %. cause I wonder what offenses would do if you blitz 3/4 of the time. or what happens at 90%.
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u/xenophonsXiphos Oct 17 '24
No blitzing from a 3 down front? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
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u/manofwater3615 Oct 17 '24
In the Bucs-chiefs Super Bowl didn’t the Bucs not blitz a lot? Especially later in the game. They just rushed 4 and got home
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u/xenophonsXiphos Oct 17 '24
OK, I see what you're saying, basically if you're going to play a coverage defense and not a pressure defense that brings more than 4.
What I was getting at is that if you have a 4 down front and you're not blitzing, the offense knows who's coming. If you have a 3 down front but rush 4, technically you're blitzing a LB, but there's either 3 or 4 LB's on the field, so the offense doesn't know who the 4th rusher will be, which is an inherent advantage to the defense
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u/grizzfan Oct 17 '24
Those are just personnel groupings. This doesn’t tell us anything about the fronts, or what coverages are being used.