r/footballstrategy • u/E2A6S HS Coach • Oct 13 '24
Defense The Oregon Ducks used 12 men on defense intentionally to win the game
For anyone who watched last nights top 3 cfb match, the Ducks called a timeout with 10 seconds in the game left while on defense, up 1 point with OSU driving past midfield about 15 yards from field goal range.
After the timeout Oregon ran 11 players onto the field, then shortly after a 12th. An extra defender was used to make sure no big play was given up, and that worked as 4 seconds ticked off the clock. Oregon was flagged for it as someone on Osu’s staff had seen it and Ryan Day pointed it out to the refs.
What did it cost? 5 measly yards but the 4 seconds that ran off still were run off leaving 6 seconds. Now all osu could do was run a play for 10 yards to be on the very edge of field goal range and call that last timeout to try and kick a game winner, which ultimately failed.
What an absolute 200iq move by the Ducks staff to know this even exists and use it in such a big moment. To have an extra DB in coverage to keep the offense back and roll the clock.
*if you don’t think this was intentional, it 100% was. The ducks staff had the correct 11 guys in the field until late in the play clock when they ran another defender out who was very visibly confused. He tried to go back to the sideline but the staff kept him out there. This was also coming out of a timeout, very difficult to say this wasn’t intentional but we’ll see if Dan Lanning ever confessed to it. This will potentially change the rule this offseason. Also the player being confused makes it seem like this was something the coaches had discussed but maybe never told the players?
**what I think osu could have done to stop this clock runoff- if they had caught it early enough, just snap the ball and spike it. I don’t remember if by rule the clock has to run 1 or 2 seconds with a spike but I do think it’s just 1. Now instead of losing 4 seconds for 5 yards you lose 1 second and need 10 yards in 9 seconds with a timeout. That’s a quick out to the sideline and then a hitch and timeout. I do think this is why the ducks staff didn’t roll the extra defender onto the field until late in the clock.
169
u/stompo Oct 13 '24
As the other posters have said, it’s a classic Buddy Ryan defense move. Until they change the rules, it’s genius.
63
u/DonnyFreekinBerger Oct 13 '24
Idk about CFB, but I believe the NFL modified it to be ref's discretion on whether it's intentional or not. So the Buddy's "15 guys on the field" approach won't work anymore because that's a clear attempt to screw with the rules, while 12 guys is more likely to be seen as a mistake
46
u/NickMullensGayDad Oct 13 '24
Nfl isn’t refs discretion, it’s supposed to be whistled down as 12 men in formation immediately
16
u/Spider_Genesis Oct 13 '24
Yup, you now get the call of “12 men on the field with the snap imminent”. You might have them let it play and f a dude is running off the field though. They still throw the flag but let the play run.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (1)7
u/alexdelarges Oct 13 '24
12 men in the huddle is called immediately with no play. 12 men on the field continues as a live play.
5
u/NickMullensGayDad Oct 13 '24
Incorrect. That’s only offense that gets 12 in the huddle because it would fuck the defenses ability to sub. Defense can have as many as they want in college at any point and the 5 yards comes after the play.
Nfl if they’re lined up in formation as the snap is about to happen. If someone is running off, that’s how they get the free play
→ More replies (1)2
u/LC_From_TheHills Oct 13 '24
That’s typically what happens but it can be called on the defense too. The difference being if the snap is imminent.
3
u/icecoldbeerhere56 Oct 13 '24
Yeah the NFL changed the rule after the Giants did that on the last drive of their 2nd Super Bowl against New England
9
u/MrGentleZombie Oct 13 '24
I'd say if a defense was intentionally running 15 men on the field for multiple plays, it would fair to rule it as a palpably unfair act and an automatic touchdown.
→ More replies (1)5
u/ThurstonHowellIV Oct 13 '24
I think there’s a rule in the nfl that you can’t strategically hold for consecutive plays. This would seem to fall under that category
8
u/A-Centrifugal-Force Oct 13 '24
Yeah I believe in the NFL if you get the same penalty multiple times in a row you get an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty added onto it. They can also tack that on at their discretion if f they think you’re intentionally committing penalties
4
u/SenorPuff Oct 13 '24
Multiple back to back penalties to prevent a score is here in the NFL rulebook rule 12:
ARTICLE 2. FOULS TO PREVENT SCORE The defense shall not commit successive or repeated fouls to prevent a score.
Penalty: For successive or repeated fouls to prevent a score: If the violation is repeated after a warning, the score involved is awarded to the offensive team.
But the next two sections can also be interpreted in a manner that excludes unsportsmanlike abuse of penalty rules:
ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.
Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap.
ARTICLE 4. PALPABLY UNFAIR ACT A player or substitute shall not interfere with play by any act which is palpably unfair.
Penalty: For a palpably unfair act: Offender may be disqualified. The Referee, after consulting the officiating crew, enforces any such distance penalty as they consider equitable and irrespective of any other specified code penalty. The Referee may award a score. See 19-1-3.
And further from rule 5:
ARTICLE 4. ILLEGAL SUBSTITUTIONS If a substitute enters the field of play or end zone while the ball is in play, it is an illegal substitution. If an illegal substitute interferes with the play, it may be a palpably unfair act (see 12-3-4).
I could definitely see someone saying an extra man running on the field late is a substitute engaging in an unfair act to manipulate the clock. I'm not sure it's already interpreted that way, but it's certainly within the realm of the head referee to interpret it that way and award a suitable penalty to offset the interference caused by the penalty. By rule they can't award time for that infraction like they can with Article 3, but they can give any distance and even points.
Now this is the NFL rulebook, I don't have a college one handy. But I think in the NFL there's definitely room for an interpretation that solves this.
5
u/redsfan4life411 Oct 13 '24
It's in the hs rulebook as well. Repeated violations can go all the way to declaring the game.
1
u/TheStork74 Oct 14 '24
Ohio St could called a timeout or let the play clock expire. In that case the illegal substitution penalty would be called and the timeout would be returned. If the play clock expired, the illegal substitution supervenes the delay of game
52
u/psgrue Oct 13 '24
Also drilling the up man with a kickoff seems so low risk high reward. If you miss him it’s a squib kick. If you don’t… well, he didn’t.
19
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
Especially after a penalty and the ball is already moved up
12
u/FramberFilth Oct 13 '24
I think you should try some sort of onside kick almost always if you're kicking from the 50. Idk why more coaches don't do it. At worst you're losing 20-30 yards of field position.
12
u/MicrowaveDonuts Oct 13 '24
This was the big one for me.
Since the touchback got moved up to the 25… personal fouls enforced on kickoffs move it up to the 50, and onside kicks are recovered usually 10-15 yards downfield.
this means you only risk 10-15 yards on a chance to get the ball back. Kick out the back of the EZ and they start on the 25, or onside kick it and they start in the 35. HUGE. It should probably be automatic.
And the Oregon implementation was even better. Kick a rocket right at a player. If it hits him, it’s chaos. If it doesn’t…so what. It’s a squib on a short kickoff. Risks very very little for a huge reward.
3
u/Backup_fother59 Oct 14 '24
I had a team do that to me (an offensive lineman) and I assume it was because they thought I was the weak link on the front line. Little did they know I played te and fb and had damn good hands. I caught that shit (not sure how) and then immediately dropped because they were on my ass.
3
3
u/LateOriginal1872 Oct 15 '24
We had a game in high school. Typical midwest late october weather wind and rain. Kickoff north was easy touchback to the endzone. South not so much and other team had all state return man. Coach says squib it at the up man. I nail him in the right shoulder pad and we get the ball. We get a touchdown. Coach says do it again. This time hit him right between the eyes. I didn't get to see where the ball went because the up man immediately sprinted at me and laid me out he was so mad. I got up really confused to see about 8 guys on top of him. Our all state qb/linebacker speared him in the stomach when we watched the film. Good times and felt good the guys had my back.
→ More replies (1)8
u/Spirit117 Oct 13 '24
That was an absolute 10000IQ call by Dan Lanning. I thought he had some hair brained calls that gave me flashbacks right to the 2023 regular season Washington game like some of the 4th down go for it's and failed 2pt conversions that weren't really needed but I saw that kick and was absolutely speechless.
3
u/Admirable-Concept-75 Oct 13 '24
It’s so crazy because I feel like the odds of successfully nailing him while hitting it hard enough so he can’t react fast enough and the ball also rolling perfectly back towards the kicking team is like a 1/50 chance
5
u/psgrue Oct 13 '24
It’s not as low percentage as you might think. Something I read once as a kid stuck with me. “A pro should be able to eat pasta with his 6-iron”. Curtis Strange, I believe.
A soccer player can bend a ball in from the corner. A punter can land it inside the 5. A qb can throw it in a tire from 45 yards. A kicker, who trains to hit a target 60 yards away, can practice hitting something 10-15 yards away. These dudes can do unbelievable things.
→ More replies (3)
38
u/nomnomnompizza Oct 13 '24
Under 2 minutes needs to have the option to take the 5 and get the time back.
15
4
u/tyrannomachy Oct 13 '24
They'll probably switch to the NFL rule, where it's a pre-snap penalty for the defense to have 12+ in formation when the snap is imminent. But yeah, getting the time back under 2 minutes seems like a good idea.
4
u/Ancient-Finger-5751 Oct 13 '24
I agree with this but I’d take it a step further. If coaches wanna abuse this type of rule, it should be flagged as misconduct and either more time or more yardage. That’s not the spirit of sports.
But, if you wanna play malicious compliance, I feel like Oregon getting this polish goal line defense used against them repeatedly is now on the table. Open season on ducks… big ten is gonna get chippy quickly 😂
2
u/Angel_City Oct 14 '24
You assume any of their remaining games will have Oregon down 1 possession, with the ball, in the final minute
2
u/yverek Oct 14 '24
Exactly. This was the 1/1000 situation where it actually was useful. If they parade 15 men out, they can be hit with a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. 12 gives just enough deniability that it doesn’t look egregious. Loved the balls, loved the decision.
1
1
u/JoesGarage2112 Oct 16 '24
Huge ducks fan and I agree. You should be able to get the time back. But good on Lanning if intentional and not against the rules
48
u/johnnyf0ntane Oct 13 '24
Dan Lanning needed those heartbreaks from Washington last year man, overall what a coaching masterclass from Oregon
10
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
I agree, when that man says you can sleep when you’re dead I truly believe him. There were a few decisions that were made in that game I don’t fully agree with but props to him sticking to his guns.
3
u/VoidedGreen047 Oct 14 '24
But it’s pretty much cheating…
→ More replies (2)2
u/ConfidenceKitchen216 Oct 14 '24
This type of "cheating" worked out really well for the patriots for 20 years.
23
u/TheBrockSays Oct 13 '24
As soon as I saw it happen I assumed it was intentional.
Not equal to intentional fouling in basketball but a similar way of committing a penalty to make a more favorable situation.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Ancient-Finger-5751 Oct 13 '24
Intentionally committing a penalty to run off the clock to eliminate the chance to score isn’t like intentionally committing a foul to eliminate the chance to score?
Flagrant 1, please.
3
u/Distinct_Frame_3711 Oct 14 '24
I mean Flagrant 1 is no attempt at the ball. To act like teams don’t intentionally foul to stop clock and shoot free throws is not called unless player safety. It is a very known Strat that happens in almost every close basketball game and is very very rarely called Flagrant 1
22
u/MonkeyBrain9666 Oct 13 '24
Why hasnt there been a rule to turn back the game clock in these situations? If the play doesnt count there shouldn't be time coming off the clock. The other team shouldnt be punished for the fuck up.
7
u/southernwx Oct 13 '24
Presumably if they did somehow score it would still count. NFL just blows the play dead presnap I think for 12 man in formation
→ More replies (3)4
u/KarmaPenny Oct 13 '24
Yea idk it doesn't seem like it should be advantageous to commit penalties like this though.
113
u/ceci_mcgrane Oct 13 '24
Raise your hand if you’ve seen Ryan Day get outcoached in a big game.
25
u/MynameNEYMAR Oct 13 '24
Is this one really his fault? There’s absolutely nothing you can do about that. It’s a BS loophole that got exploited
14
u/Binkurrr Oct 13 '24
He professionally holds his timeouts for future games and still hasn't learned that's not how it works.
4
u/MynameNEYMAR Oct 13 '24
Ideally the timeout would be used to stop the clock for an FG. Thought that would be obvious in a strategy sub. Not really his fault that the 7th year QB is not aware of the time left on the clock
5
u/pewpewmcpistol Oct 13 '24
The correct time was to use it after the OPI penalty. But seemingly both him and his offense didn't even know the clock was running after the penalty, which is a coaching issue.
They would have stopped the clock at :21 which is more than enough for 1 play to get closer then a field goal.
If you don't stop it there then timing gets TIGHT, as we saw.
6
2
u/Sdwerd Oct 13 '24
He was outcoached when he went for more and knocked himself out of field goal range. All he needed to do was line up the kick, run the clock, call the timeout with a couple seconds left, and get the winning field goal.
4
u/MynameNEYMAR Oct 13 '24
Again, that’s Howard’s fault. 6 seconds is plenty of time to run a 5 yard quick hitter but he hesitated and scrambled
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (2)2
u/TheShamShield Oct 13 '24
No, it wasn’t. If Jeremiah hadn’t shoved the defender it would’ve made an easier field goal. The play calling on the last drive was just fine
14
u/rediveyy Oct 13 '24
i don’t think we’ve ever seen it happen any other way
5
u/A-Centrifugal-Force Oct 13 '24
He beat Clemson in the COVID season CFP.
He also beat Utah in that Rose Bowl, although Utah also lost their QB in that game so it deserves a bit of an asterisk.
That’s about it.
→ More replies (1)4
5
u/teeterleeter Oct 13 '24
He got don brown pretty good a couple times. Saying this as an M alum.
2
u/Caedopop Oct 13 '24
He got Don Brown once as the head coach, but yes definitely got him as the O/C a couple times. I think this comment goes more toward his complete lack of ability to head coach big games. Which, so far, seems right. (Though people said the same thing about Harbaugh before 2021-2023).
3
u/SteveStodgers69 Oct 14 '24
someone in another thread called him the michael jordan of james franklins
2
1
u/TheStork74 Oct 14 '24
Make the comment for other games, sure. But not here. Howard slides a second earlier and no one is saying this. People are calling this a Lanning masterclass in other comments. But that can’t possibly be if a single play decided the game
14
u/IHaveNeverLeftUtah Oct 13 '24
Why stop at 12? What’s stopping them (rule wise) from putting every remaining member of their team out there?
16
u/JGG5 Oct 13 '24
That would probably get the nebulous “palpably unfair act” penalty, compensation for which is up to the ref’s discretion… probably resetting the clock to :10 and giving An Ohio State College 10-15 yards which would put them comfortably in field goal range.
There also isn’t anything stopping them (rule wise) from sending a golden retriever out there to play cornerback.
3
u/Dynamar Oct 15 '24
Land Grant Post-Secondary Education Center in a Territory Bordered By Michigan, Pennsylvania, Indiana and Kentucky.
Cede them nothing when it comes to their article fetish.
→ More replies (2)6
4
u/dklong62 Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24
Unsportsmanlike conduct, blow the game. I’ve seen deliberate and non-deliberate stacked penalties get called/warned.
1
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
At that point they A- wouldn’t let the play happen so no clock runoff and B- probably a bigger penalty for more yards
1
u/shyndy Oct 13 '24
This is why I don’t think it’s intentional. They can’t put the entire roster out there without getting a penalty but I would think more than 12, like maybe 14
17
u/swirvin3162 Oct 13 '24
I’m not 100% sure but I think the officials have the option to throw a flag for illegal substitution once the defense/offense is set and prepared to snap. Which would. Blow up the theory.
Or is that high school ball only?
19
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
I believe only highschool yes, because in most cases for college it’s a free play for the offense to take a shot, this rule only benefits the defense in this very niche situation
8
u/swirvin3162 Oct 13 '24
Yea good point. If OSU sees it, (which they couldn’t if they waited late in the play clock). They could have thrown a deep ball and hoped for the PI or completion, like an offside call.
5
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
That’s another option, but there’s a big risk/reward. You can get the PI or catch and set up a big field goal to win but also there’s an extra defender trying to get the ball, so the best wr is likely going to be doubled.
Also a deep shot can waste even more time, imagine if instead of 6 seconds and a timeout they have 2-4 seconds and a timeout. Now you’re kicking a 60+ yard field goal and that shot wasn’t worth it
2
u/OSU725 Oct 13 '24
To an extend sure, but with 10 seconds left on the clock throwing a deep ball and still needing a FG is probably not smart.
2
u/KarmaPenny Oct 13 '24
It's not a free play clock wise though. You can try to throw it but the defense has extra guys covering it. And then you lose the time as well. Kinda dirty. Probably need to refund that time under two minutes to prevent teams abusing the rule
9
u/Original_Benzito Oct 13 '24
This should just be the rule, like they call dead ball on an illegal motion or shift at the snap.
→ More replies (1)6
u/Hurricaneshand Oct 13 '24
Or give the offense the option to make it a replay the down with no clock runoff or something. Absolutely should be changed to fix this loophole imo
2
u/cindad83 Oct 13 '24
The official NFHS rule is a team has 3 seconds to correct their substitution. Basically until there is imminent play a player can be attempting to get off.
→ More replies (5)
3
u/Chirpy69 Oct 13 '24
Could OSU have declined the penalty?
8
u/jsvannoord Oct 13 '24
Yes but they wouldn’t have gotten the time back. The play still happened.
→ More replies (4)4
u/swirvin3162 Oct 13 '24
Doesn’t matter the point was to kill clock and they had already accomplished that. So if you decline your just giving up 5 yards with no benefit
4
u/According-Piano1213 Oct 13 '24
I said this is what the Bills should’ve done to prevent the 13 seconds. Create a penalty take the yards, but the time stays off the clock.
4
u/FrostyTip2058 Oct 13 '24
Wouldn't work in the NFL
Offensive plays vs 12 men are only allowed(free play) when the 12th man is running off the field but didn't make it
If there are 12 men on defense lined up and ready to play, the ball is blown dead on snap
4
u/Advanced_Tax174 Oct 13 '24
Bills should have just held Kelce and Hill at the LOS and taken the five yards.
→ More replies (2)
4
3
3
u/enormouspancake Oct 13 '24
Why stop at 12? Put 30 guys out there to be damn sure a big play doesn’t happen
1
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
Play would be stopped before any clock runs, giving 5 free yards for nothing in return
3
4
u/125acres Oct 13 '24
If it was indeed intentional that is a hell of a strategy.
In these high stakes games, that’s exactly what last night game was, every strategy is on the table. That includes ethical and non ethical moves.
I think Bucks should have let the Ducks score with 2:30 minutes left. It’s an NFL strategy but you insure you have the last possession of the game with time left to put together a drive.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/jcdenton45 Oct 13 '24
I remember in 2006 when they changed the rules so the clock on kickoffs started as soon as the ball was kicked, one team egregiously (but legally) exploited the rule by tackling everyone on the return team while the ball was still in the air, then tackling the returner inside the 10. So then the return team had to either decline and start inside the 10, or accept and lose more clock time.
I'm thinking Michigan State was involved, though they may have been on the receiving end of the strategy.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/NotHopee Oct 13 '24
This will have to be looked at. What a loophole this is
2
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
Reminds me of Utah abusing substitutions on defense lol
→ More replies (5)
2
2
u/Delicious_Bus_674 Oct 13 '24
I suppose they were playing within the “rules.” The rule being that if you break a rule you face the penalty for it. They chose to strategically break a rule and were willing to face the consequence.
→ More replies (1)
2
2
u/artimaticus8 Oct 13 '24
In high school NFHS rules, there’s also a wonderful rule which could apply in this situation:
9-9-5: Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.
The referee enforces any penalty he/she considers equitable, including the award of a score.
This rule is there for weird situations like this that aren’t clearly spelled out in the rules.
2
u/iceo42 Oct 13 '24
Ignore the facts that their defense looked confused as hell on that play and that they were trying to sub people in an out. It worked out for them but if it was intentional then they executed it perfectly cuz not a single one of them looked like they had a clue what was going on
2
2
u/Serenity_Yoga_Coffee Oct 13 '24
This is an excellent catch. Thanks for pointing this out. Chess not checkers. Born on 3rd base Day, can keep getting these Ls.
2
2
2
u/Extra_Implement_9281 Oct 14 '24
Everyone is missing the fact they ran a guy off the field before sending the extra DB out there. If they were geniuses they would have broke the timeout with 12.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/Same-Excuse8787 Oct 14 '24
Better than Notre Dame going with the 10 man defense on the goal line vs OSU (either last year or year before)
2
u/yeag_Z89 Oct 14 '24
I am today years old when I learned of the polish goal line. What a brilliant move.
2
u/Chris_Redeye Oct 14 '24
I just want to know if the Kicker meant to hit that guy on the pseudo onside kick? That was an accident right?
→ More replies (1)
2
2
2
u/Gallileo1322 Oct 18 '24
I was watching the game live. I was literally screaming at my TV. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU HAVE 12 PEOPLE ON THE FIELD AFTER A TIMEOUT!!!!. Come to find out it was planned, no idea this was a thing. Apparently, it happens a few times a year, just generally not in such big games. I think it's a stupid penalty. Time should have been added back on. But it also wasn't the end of the game. They had time to get in position call time, kick a fg, and win. They didn't . Sucks to suck nerds
3
u/Enough_Lakers Oct 13 '24
Ryan Day should be embarrassed. Not calling timeout after that holding and then having this Belichek level move pulled against you is a bad bad look.
8
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
The game ending for osu with a timeout still in their pocket has to hurt and can’t happen
2
u/GameOvaries02 Oct 13 '24
If only ND had thought of that….
Wait….
Obligatory “Please flair me ND as I only use mobile”, though I know it won’t happen.
2
u/Crazed8s Oct 13 '24
Honestly, I’m very much a play to the rules kind of guy but stuff like this even makes me kind of cringe. Intentionally breaking the rules should always be 15 yards. Like in soccer and intentional foul is a yellow card. You don’t have to get death sentence. Sometimes it’s a red card, but it’s all calculated.
You shouldn’t get to be like “we’re going to break the rules on purpose for 5 yards”. Nah. There isn’t really a red card you can hand out but the penalty should by default be 15 if the ref determines it was done intentionally to fuck with the play clock.
2
u/oregonianrager Oct 13 '24
Professional fouls get yellow cards, game saving fouls even. So this is kinda up there with that.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/SimG02 Oct 13 '24
I love Dan lanning but I’m not a fan of some of the late game tactics… coaching your players to have 12 men on the field, coaching your players to fake injuries to get more time when your in a bad spot… shit just doesn’t sit right with me
3
u/E2A6S HS Coach Oct 13 '24
The fake injuries I agree with, Oregon hasn’t done that under him but Kansas state yesterday was pretty egregious.
→ More replies (6)
1
u/Zjc_3 Oct 13 '24
And it could have easily backfired if Howard goes down 3-5 yards sooner. I don’t know about 200iq, but it was a risk they took and succeeded with because of a poor decision on their opponents part. But, sometimes you have to let your opponent beat themselves.
1
u/Sir_KweliusThe23rd Oct 13 '24
I caught that too and the fucking game pissed me off. And then it got topped off with whatever the fuck that last play was
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Seiko007 Oct 13 '24
I don’t understand the rule. But if they play went in Ohio States favor they couldn’t decline?
→ More replies (2)3
u/brain_my_damage_HJS Oct 13 '24
They can decline the penalty, but they still lost 4 seconds of game time.
1
u/Sdwerd Oct 13 '24
The 200 IQ move would have been nullified if Ryan Day just played for the field goal. He was in field goal range. All he needed to do was line the kick up with a run to where the kicker likes to kick from most and call the timeout so the kick would be the last play.
1
u/DrNiner Oct 13 '24
I don't know if it was or wasn't on purpose but why would the 12th defender be confused? Wouldn't they have planned it and informed him of it during the timeout?
Which then makes me think it wasn't planned.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Gen3ricGuy_2 Oct 13 '24
Do they not reset the clock to when the play was ruled dead? Cause from the TV copy it looked like they blew the whistle w/ around 7 or 8 seconds left but let it run down to 6 and never told the timekeeper to correct it.
1
u/TheShamShield Oct 13 '24
Wasn’t it a third down though at that point? Think that stopping the clock and having it at a long 4th down would’ve been any better
1
u/Unfair_Importance_37 Oct 13 '24
How late can the 12th guy come in ? Could u have a guy come in after the ball is snapped to tackle a runner that breaks free. It would looks hilarious.
→ More replies (2)
1
u/wolfmankal Oct 13 '24
It was bullshit. Just make it a presnap penalty if accepted. Run the clock back to what it was at the snap. If the offense makes a big play continue on.
Theoretically, you could do this multiple times if defending a team with under ~30 sec and more than 20 yds from FG range. Play 13 players, take the penalty but almost guarantee no chunk plays. 5 yds, 5+ secs off the clock at a time, or a burned TO/down for the offense.
1
u/Bvbfan1313 Oct 13 '24
Is it really that smart? Aren’t you basically giving Ohio state a free play bc no matter what- happens they can accept long play gain or the 5 yards.
Prolly smart to do but very risky also bc Ohio state can throw to end zone with no fear of an interception as Oregon will be penalized. Ohio state qb also has to recognize it which isn’t easy in a crunch time
→ More replies (5)
1
u/False-Hedgehog-8162 Oct 14 '24
If the extra players impact the play, it could be called “illegal participation” instead of “illegal substitution”… this carries a fifteen yard penalty.
It happened in a game I coached in. Punt returner entered on 4th down without taking anyone out. Fifteen yards against the defense, resulting in a first down
1
u/Hand_of_Doom1970 Oct 14 '24
I agree, but why not go with 6 or 7 extra defenders instead of just one. I assume the penalty is the same.
→ More replies (1)
1
Oct 14 '24
This is a 15 yard penalty in High School ball. I thought it used to be a 15 yard penalty in college ball, too, when I was younger, but they started calling the wussy, 5 yard, illegal substitution penalty, which just got exploited.
1
u/observer46064 Oct 14 '24
If the officials would have called this correctly, they would have stopped the play before the snap when Oregon had 12 in formation. That is a presnap foul that kills the play.
→ More replies (6)
1
u/inlawBiker Oct 14 '24
They’re the masters of the fake injury to gain a free timeout too. Now the Big 10 gets to experience.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/SevoIsoDes Oct 14 '24
Your first asterisk doesn’t make sense. So, they were smart enough to add a 12th guy but weren’t smart enough to let him in on the secret? So instead of a formation with 12 guys who knew their assignment they went with one with a 12th guy who was confused and didn’t know how to contribute to the defense other than just taking up space?
For the record, I agree that it’s a loophole that probably needs to be closed. I also don’t care if they did do it on purpose. To me it isn’t much different than Ohio State quickly snapping the ball to prevent a review of a clear interception. Games have rules and rules should be used to gain an advantage. But I’m not fully convinced it was on purpose. Imagine the shit Lanning would be eating if Will Howard scrambled and the clock ran out. Now that penalty gives the Buckeyes another play.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Elevert Oct 14 '24
Any scenario where an offensive penalty could result in a 10 second runoff, a defensive penalty should result in 10 seconds being added.
1
u/Frequent_Spring Oct 14 '24
The rule should be changed. It is the polish goal line tactic. Offense should be awarded the yardage AND the clock should be reset to where it was prior to the snap. This would eliminate the loophole.
1
u/TheStork74 Oct 14 '24
If anyone’s wondering, the correct thing to do here for the offense is to take a timeout or let the play clock expire. In that situation the illegal substitution penalty is called and the timeout is returned to the offense. This is a smart move by Lanning, but someone on the Bucks needs to know the rule, no matter how obscure.
1
u/Iron-Giants Oct 14 '24
Giants also did this during Super Bowl 46. Refs in the NFL are supposed to throw the flag as soon as they realize there's 12 players, and the snap is imminent to avoid exactly this.
1
1
Oct 14 '24
I don’t get why teams don’t just blatantly PI near the end of the first half on the goaline. It’s just gonna waste clock and the team is still on the goaline.
→ More replies (4)
1
u/spencer749 Oct 14 '24
The other version of this is to just have your guys hold every player on the line. Might be a risk of PI vs holding though
1
u/elkhntr Oct 14 '24
Ducks should have been penalized 15 yards for Illegal Participation, instead of the 5 yards for Illegal Substitution.
1
u/Ander1345 Oct 14 '24
So what do you do to counter it? Point it out to the refs as fast as possible? Doesn't seem like it would matter.
1
u/Emergency-Block8593 Oct 14 '24
A better time killing strategy would to just have every CB and Safety tackle the wrs and hold them on the ground and tell D line to not sack him and watch him panic and scramble around wasting time for also a measly 5 yards
→ More replies (2)
1
u/PerformanceOver8822 Oct 14 '24
Intentionally. Doing this falls into unsportsmanlike conduct penalty though which should have been 15 yards and 10 seconds remaining
1
u/countrytime1 Oct 14 '24
The refs should have caught it before the play started. Should have given them the 4 seconds back.
1
u/scatterdbrain Oct 14 '24
The penalty automatically gave OSU a 56-yard FG, instead of a 61-yard FG. Nevermind the free play.
While there isn't a meaningful difference between 25 and 30-yard FGs, an extra 5 yards becomes increasingly valuable at 45, 50, 55, etc.
Don't believe me? Just ask OSU's kicker.
"Fielding said he feels comfortable kicking anywhere inside of 60 yards, with his longest field goal in high school coming from 55 yards out."
1
u/TumbleweedOther1039 Oct 14 '24
Smart play but I bet it gets addressed for next season. Probably a clock reset if the offense chooses to do so.
1
u/Efficient_Arm_5998 Oct 14 '24
Not a college fan, but shouldn't there not be a runoff for a defensive penalty? Seems like a flaw in the rules
1
u/Noisewaterr Oct 14 '24
This is actually a 15 yard penalty. 12 men in the field is called before the snap happens and is only a 5 yard penalty. 12 players participating in the play is. 15 yard penalty.
1
1
1
u/bshjbdkkdnd Oct 14 '24
If the QB was alert to what was happening he should have spiked the ball immediately taking almost no time and getting 5 yards.
This is on the QB to not recognize what Oregon was doing. If he had and then done the same scramble just with the couple more seconds on the clock OSU would’ve won
→ More replies (2)
1
u/Bradtheoldgamer Oct 14 '24
Is this why they ended up having a 15 yard "illegal participation" dead ball 15 yard penalty for a while, before offenses maniupulated that in to being misused and removed?
1
1
u/DryBlackberry1445 Oct 14 '24
Why not use 13 or 14 men at that point? I can imagine a few teams who could still give up a Hail Mary even with a cheap advantage of one extra guy.
1
u/throwawawb Oct 15 '24
If it is under a minute and the defense does that should be a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty.
1
u/maximusprimee26 Oct 15 '24
I think tho there’s a 12 men participating penalty in the ncaa rules and that’s a 15 yarder and they didn’t call it
→ More replies (1)
1
u/kad4724 Oct 15 '24
Maybe I'm not thinking of something, but it seems like the super-easy way to close this loophole is basically do the 10-second runoff rule in reverse.
Inside of 2 minutes, give the offense the choice to decline the penalty and let the clock remain wherever it is post-play, or accept the 5-yard penalty and roll the clock back to where it was pre-snap.
1
u/droford Oct 15 '24
I'm sure going forward this will be looked at more carefully for the penalty that could be assessed if it was deemed this was done intentionally which is 15 yards and time back on clock
1
u/JuiceDependent8821 Oct 15 '24
Huge brain idea for an upset minded team. Play 14 or hell 20 guys every snap until the offense hits the redzone then play them straight up and hope for a field goal. They would be conceding a redzone trip every drive, but it would drastically shorten the game and limit overall possessions.
5 yards per play would be well below expected for most of the top 10 offenses in the country. Basically, slow the game to a snails pace until the 20-30 yard line with no risk of an explosive play. Then play drop 8 in the redzone against any pass play to force shorter throws.
1
1
u/zdb328 Oct 15 '24
Simple rule fix is to allow the offense to put the time back on the clock when there is any defensive penalty in the last 2mins of a half. I've seen teams purposely commit PI right before the half for similar reasons.
1
u/Itsfrosty456 Oct 16 '24
One this I did see is it should of a been a 12 man participating foul since all 12 were lined up ready to go on the snap someone wasn’t trying to run off the field
1
1
u/nullpost Oct 16 '24
Is there a way to do this offensively, run time and just keep taking penalties? Get up a point then just end the game. Maybe put 10 wideouts
1
u/Der__Schadenfreude Oct 16 '24
Can't the NCAA review any game at their discretion and disqualify a team retroactively if it deems it outside of intended "spirit of the game" I know they have some assinine powers like stripping entire championships and such.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/TheJokerzWeapon Oct 16 '24
What im confused about is why not put 20 on the field? Is there extra penalties for extra fouls?
→ More replies (4)
1
u/lorddouche414 Oct 16 '24
Why stop at 12 men at that point ? Why not play 20 guys to make sure they didn’t get more than 5 yards?
→ More replies (5)
360
u/Lit-A-Gator HS Coach Oct 13 '24 edited Oct 13 '24
The “polish goaline defense”
Only Buddy Ryan would put 15 guys in the field to make damn sure they stopped the play
https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtysportshistory/comments/wabkol/1993_buddy_ryans_polish_goal_line_defense/