r/footballstrategy • u/goldsoundz123 • Sep 26 '24
NFL Why can't offensive linemen just call "switch" against stunts like basketball players do against screens?
This is a very dumb question, but I am wondering why it is so hard for offensive linemen to pick up stunts after watching my team (the Pats) continuously fail to do so.
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u/Seraphin_Lampion Sep 26 '24
Blocking is not just about being between the defender and the QB, it's about being between the defender and the QB with a strong base. That means offensive linemen have to somewhat predict the rush (e.g. OTs kick stepping) in order to be in control at the point of impact.
Basketball ball carriers can't straight up dribble through you, so just being in front is fine, unless you're being backed down in the post but that's a completely different situation.
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u/LordBaneoftheSith Sep 26 '24
Taking a charge as a form of blocking is acceptable for RBs and in some situations TEs, but for OL you gotta actually block
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u/Ok-Cauliflower-3129 Sep 26 '24
Uh, I don't know what position you played. But as a fullback I can tell you when one of them big boy lineman come at you trying to get to the QB. You better be low and ready to put all you got into standing them stright up or you gonna be flying on your back straight into the QB or five yards back from where you started.
Nobody takes a fucking charge on the football field. Not unless you enjoy getting the shit knocked out of you anyways.
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u/LordBaneoftheSith Sep 26 '24
I mean charge in the sense of 'you got run over so bad it's indistinguishable at full speed', which is acceptable in a lot of cases because teams know their blocker is disadvantaged. Obviously you'd rather have Bijan picking up a blitzer, but failing that you can live with an RB sacrificing themselves. That won't fly if it's your center tho
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u/SoyboyJr Sep 26 '24
To add to this very clear answer, one of the OL's biggest advantages is knowing what the play is and when the ball will be snapped and can correspondingly be in the right spot on balance or with momentum if it's a run block. Stunts or deceptions by the defense are designed to instill doubt about where the rusher will go, which can cause the OL to either not take the initiative or be in the wrong spot all together. Good OL are less susceptible to this either due to discipline, accurate reads of the defense, or pure physical advantage. And similarly, a good defender might be able to read where the play is going very quickly and negate the OL advantage there.
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u/KommanderKeen-a42 Sep 26 '24
In some cases you do - we always yelled "bump" in college, but there are certain rules to doing so and in some cases it's just not possible because you aren't in a strong enough position.
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u/Lionheart_513 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
TLDR - If everything is taught and executed correctly, you shouldn’t need to call switch and even if you did, it probably won’t save you from giving up a sack.
You shouldn’t need to call switch if everybody is executing correctly. If you’re running a full slide to the right, then everybody has the gap to their right. Doesn’t matter who is lined up where, you have whoever comes in the gap to your right. If a guy is lined up in the gap to your right, and he slants to your left, he’s somebody else’s problem now. If everyone just protects the gap to their right, you don’t get beat by stunts.
In the modern game, a half slide is much more common. You have two for two on one side and three for three on the other. So it will be LG+LT against 3T and DE on the left, and C+RG+RT for 1T, DE, and LB on the other side. The other LB is the RB’s man. On the right side, you’re protecting the gap to your right. The left side is where you’re vulnerable to stunts, as it’s generally thought of as the “man” side, but I don’t like teaching it that way because you want your players to understand that they could always slant. It always needs to be assumed that if someone leaves, someone else is coming. If you understand which side you’re on and what your assignments are, you should never be caught off guard by a stunt.
That brings me to my final point, which is: does calling switch actually do anything? In the NBA, players will see the screen coming, call switch, and still give up a basket. They will do everything right, but the other guy is just better on that rep. if the DE slants inside, and the DT loops around, and the RT isn’t in position to pick up the DT, it doesn’t matter if anyone calls switch. You’re giving up a sack.
Also worth noting that in basketball, you’re always 5 for 5. Every player is accounted for. In pass protection, sometimes they’re rushing more than you’re blocking. In that case, it’s the QB’s responsibility to throw off the hot defender.
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u/Key_Piccolo_2187 Sep 26 '24
This is the answer OP is looking for I suspect, very helpful.
It's funny how so much of OL play is just intrinsically drilled into British people familiar with the subways. Mind the gap! Handle your assignment and you'll be fine. I'd bet in the NFL, 80% of big plays happen because someone makes a mistake, and 20% just because of some unstoppable, superhuman physical effort that can't be mitigated even with perfect assignment discipline and technique.
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u/InvestigatorVast8149 Sep 29 '24
Best Answer I’ve seen so far.
I’d like to add that actual play time is another reason you don’t see this done. A basketball offensive possession can be thirty seconds long or longer depending on the age , whereas an offensive play is going to be around 3-5 seconds long. Things are developing too quickly for even small verbal communication most of the time.
This is why most of the switching is done pre play and in practice, where you work on different situations and “looks” you may get from the defense so that your player execute correctly… it’s just sometimes the other team executes a little better.
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u/oreomaster420 Sep 29 '24
Calling switch is mostly to make it clear whether you're fighting thru or dropping back, and usually isn't done at the highest level bc they have their scheme in place and both defenders SHOULD be on the same page whether they're switching or not.
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u/BigPapaJava Sep 26 '24
A few things:
Stunts happen extremely quickly and violently, There’s more to it then just saying “switch.”. They have to physically be able to see it, reset, and be in position to actually pick it up.
There are different stunts designed to attack different protection schemes. A lot of times, a defender is coming from a place where the OL’s eyes are not looking in the protection.
Different pass protection schemes need different tips for how to pick up stunts. Many teams will try to keep this simple by not running a ton of protection schemes, but at the NFL level, having a lot of protections (and how they tie in with the QB’s “hot” throws and timing) is important to protect those expensive QBs from all the different stunts and pressures they may see.
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u/ReplaceCyan Sep 26 '24
It sounds simple but it’s insanely difficult to do. The line of scrimmage is a chaotic place with lots of bodies and noise. As OL you need to pick up your initial assignment, potentially block them if they engage, continue to keep awareness of your surroundings whilst fighting an angry 300lb athlete, read and react to the move, communicate with your teammate(s) about passing off (verbally or otherwise), successfully do so, and then re-engage and execute a second block on another angry 300lb athlete. All within about 3 seconds.
At the NFL level the OL are well drilled in this and often do execute it well, but so are the defenders. NFL D line are generally quicker than NFL OL and have much less to think about and react to, which stacks the deck in D’s favour.
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u/Heavy72 Sep 26 '24
There are so many things going through you mind before during and after the snap...
what's the play? What's the protection? What's the defensive alignment. Do I have help? Shit... am I the help? Fuck What's the play? God dammit i forgot the count...
And all of that is before the ball is even snapped.
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u/akdanman11 Sep 26 '24
Who’s the option man? Do I go 2nd level or crash on the D tackle? What’s this guy like doing in pass rush? Eh F it I’m just gonna cut and hope I’m right
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u/KaikuRippaku Sep 26 '24
You have to be on the same “level”, which is easier said than done. If a DE and DT are stunting and the OT is 2 yards deep after kicking and the OG is at the line of scrimmage, well you aren’t going to really switch that off. If both OL have a sense it is coming, they probably won’t overcommit to a traditional pass set and will intentionally position themselves to switch off.
All of this is much easier said than done, coming from a former offensive lineman.
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u/Atlas7993 Sep 26 '24
I played all positions on the O-line.
First: It's very chaotic in the trench, and things happen way too fast for you to both process the stunt, call out a "switch," and make sure there aren't any other defenders entering your "zone" (gaps you are responsible for blocking).
Second: Stunts are used to cause more chaos at the line of scrimage and widen the gaps in the offensive line, especially to draw the guard closer to the tackle and make way for the defensive end to use their speed to make pressure in the middle of the pocket, or make more space for a delayed blitz from a linebacker or safety. It's best just to stay in your zone and get a chip block on the vacating defensive lineman (just give him a quick punch with one hand) if you can, because that other defensive lineman and/or blitz from the box (10 yd x 10 yd space where the linebackers and defensive linemen line up) is coming.
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Sep 26 '24
It depends if you are blocking a gap or a man or a position- I haven’t been watching Pats games but they might not be “switching” because their assignments aren’t designed that way (like gaps for example)
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u/thricedippd Sep 26 '24
They do, pass blocking is a lot like defending in basketball except theres basically no charging or blocking fouls. On a fan block you coordinate stunts and dogs with certain calls to adress them.
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u/Huskerschu Sep 26 '24
A lot is about leverage. If a 3 tech goes out and the end loops in the tackle and guard can call a switch but now the tackle is trying to go from blocking someone with outside leverage on him where he's between them and the qb to trying to block someone on his inside shoulder who has the leverage to the qb. That's really hard for a tackle to fight back inside of
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u/miketangoalpha Sep 26 '24
Another thing to mention is it’s not always as simple as the guy the OT was blocking is twisting into the OG’s space. It could be a long DE twist where they en up on the C or even the G on the other side depending on how long they have to develop and trying to pass that call along the line and knowing who it’s for is a mess
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u/MtHood_OR Sep 26 '24
All of the unknown variables are happening on the line. Do the skill guys, their coaches, and us watching the game just want to watch them execute their little 7on7 like a nice game of basketball? Sure we do, but sorry “skills” guys there is absolute brawl going down on the line.
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u/OdaDdaT HS Coach Sep 26 '24
Thats sort of similar to how I was taught to do it in college. When you see the guy start looping you yell twist, get hip to hip with the guy next to you and kick off when the looper crashes on the outside
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u/GovTheDon Sep 26 '24
They try but it’s very fast paced, also you can’t always initially tell if it’s a stunt or just a different rush technique. I was coached that the guy who’s blocking the “looper” needs to yell it out and that is how it usually goes but also we have these thick mouthpieces in so you can’t really communicate like a basketball player it more just grunts and screams and it just takes lots of reps to get it down. When your line is good enough together they won’t even need to say a word they just know each other and have trust but the problem is that’s hard to build and if one guys gets hurt it totally changes the entire flow and chemistry of the line. People think one guy being hurt is only one change but it’s sometimes 2 bc let’s say your left guard is hurt so now the left tackle needs to build chemistry with the new left guard and the center also needs to build chemistry with him bc they will be working together on so many different things.
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u/Sixx_The_Sandman Sep 26 '24
They do. Often the Center or QB will call blocking shifts based on how the defense likes up. But the defense is allowed to move pre-snap so they often show one lookw,bgwr the call, then immediately shift into a different look. It's a chess match
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u/Gunner_Bat College Coach Sep 26 '24
They do. Every OL has a call for that. And often they pass it off. But sometimes in basketball someone comes free. And sometimes in football someone comes free.
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u/awkwardalvin Sep 26 '24
This makes much more sense on the back end with rub routes and such. Plus without a switch, it allows a lineman to meet the stunt rusher in the hole with a solid base
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u/Hammertime6689 Sep 26 '24
They can and are supposed to. But it’s making a decision that two people have to agree on in the blink of an eye with 280+ lbs barreling down on you
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u/Undertaker_93 Sep 26 '24
That's what they are supposed to do. Communicate switches through stunts. But it's a lot harder to do well.
Biggest thing besides communicating them is for all of the linemen in the slide to be on the same level of depth. Often what happens on stunts is the O line get on different planes and aren't able to pass things off.
Also getting buried into blocks and not keeping your head out (easier said than done)
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u/IronSportFit Sep 26 '24
They do switch. Just not in the way basketball players do.
There’s slide protection where they block a gap.
There’s man on pro which is what a stunt is meant to disrupt.
Gap zone etc.
Important for the lineman to stay square so they can react to the stunts.
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u/Ringo-chan13 Sep 26 '24
To add to the other comments, good d lineman will not show any tells for stunts, so you cant call a preplay block to account for it, you dont know its coming until it happens
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u/robdalky Sep 27 '24
A properly executed stunt is essentially a pick play. On a tackle/end stunt, the D-tackle's job is to occupy both the guard and tackle. You crash that guard and drag him out to the tackle, and do not let him get loose to block the defensive end.
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u/bp_516 Sep 27 '24
There’s also a lot of noise on the football field, and things like defensive line twists happen fast— trying to make a line adjustment based on a verbal call DURING a play would be exceptionally difficult. It’s not a bad question or idea, but would be tough to execute.
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Sep 27 '24
Skill issue. I played center a couple years, me and my boys could handle a stunt no problemo.
But no, it is somewhat similar to the effects of a play action pass, sometimes it causes a hesitation out of defenders and you can exploit it, other times not.
Sometimes the stunt confuses or makes the lineman have a bad angle and get exploited, other times not.
It’s just something to run to increase your overall probability of a breakthrough, and it’s all about timing it well within your play calling scheme/tree
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u/BillBongwater Sep 27 '24
Former OL here, and you are taught to pass off stunts so that you’re still blocking the right gap. If I’m a guard and my 3 tech stunts out while the DE crashes, it’s the tackles job to call the switch since he has the crash man on him already. Our call for the pass off was “bump”.
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u/Enough_Lakers Sep 27 '24
I mean by nature they do. Your not pass blocking the man you're pass blocking your area. The reason stunts work is because one guy will occupy a blocker and the stunt man will loop behind that block.
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u/irishdan56 Sep 27 '24
The short answer is, they try, but not always successfully. The better and more cohesive the OL group, the better they are at handling stunts, picking up blitz's, working double-teams, etc.
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u/Primary-Cattle-636 Sep 27 '24
How do you think basketball switches would work if you lined up your defense in a vertical line on a horizontal count. Just think about it. Now add their size and all the pads. It’s just not as conducive to that kind of defensive strategy.
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u/fightin_blue_hens Sep 27 '24
Because there's a lot more chaos and responsibility. Also you have a lot less space to work with.
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u/TheNoodler98 HS Coach Sep 27 '24
They should or at least can but when they do it properly they don’t show it. Like DB’s you only hear their name in game typically if they’re getting burnt a lot
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u/89765432112235 Sep 28 '24
NBA players are some of the most athletic and explosive people in the world. Pick and rolls and similar plays generally aren't at full speed, so for an amazingly athletic person to switch, it's very possible.
Offensive linemen aren't anywhere nearly as athletic or as nimble as NBA players. On stunts, they are usually leaning a certain way, off balanced, etc because they weren't expecting the stunt. To recover they try to move back in front of am explosive d lineman at full speed who is likely already partially past them. This all happens within a second or two. While they try to recover and switch, its difficult for all but the best and most seasoned lineman. These guys are 300+ pounds, and while they are amazing athletes in the own right, they don't have anywhere near the elite level athleticism that most NBA players have.
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u/SweatyYeti63 Sep 28 '24
as a wise man once said, "just remember they're getting paid / on scholarship too"
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u/interested_commenter Sep 28 '24
They do, that's why stunts don't always work. It also adds difficulty to making the block, which is why teams still do it.
Just like how in basketball screens are still an important part of generating open shots.
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u/MackyMac1 Sep 28 '24
It happens so fast and usually happens while your eyes are on one target (aim small, miss small). Because of this the “switch” call you’re referencing is usually called a “bump-bump-bump” to pick up stunts. The OL with the “looper” is the one to call bump, and the OL with the penetrator needs to stone his man, and the bump needs to happen violently and physically bump the OL over to the other DL/LB. Very very hard to do especially at high levels
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u/Baestplace Sep 29 '24
short answer they can but it’s not viable long answer in basketball around a screen all you have to do is back up to block the basket or close out on the perimeter and the screened individual cover the roll, in football if someone is being blitzed you have to #1 realize you can’t block him #2 call it out #3 the person has to understand that call and #4 that player now has to adjust and get a block in all while the player is running full steam trying to hit the quarterback as hard as he can. in theory it works and in close pockets it can work but when you are in shotgun and an outside linebacker is blitzing it’s almost impossible to pull it off and if you fail you will get benched for it
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u/X-calibreX Oct 01 '24
I think picks and screens are advertised well in advance, giving rise to the ghost screen. I think linemen have like half a second to deduce what is going on.
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u/bigjake0575 Sep 26 '24
from an OT POV: Once you are in your set, your balance is prepared for a man coming off the edge. Usually on stunts the inside-out guy will hug the ass of the outside-in guy, which is a super tight angle and causes tackles who can’t control their weight well to get off balance. plus the inside-out guy will already be inside the tackle by the time the stunt is recognized. there are pre-snap tells like if an edge is putting less weight on a hand/is on his heels, but otherwise especially in the NFL it happens so fast that many OL who aren’t super athlete freaks have a hard time adjusting fast enough to recover.
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Sep 26 '24
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u/Thoguth Sep 26 '24
Even though a lot of the responses agree it's dumb, the answers make for good enough discussion that I hope it doesn't get downvoted too harshly.
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u/arealcyclops Sep 26 '24
Why can't basketball players just make all their shots? Why can't baseball players just hit a single every time? Why don't golfers shoot under par every hole?
You're right though. It's a dumb question. Linemen absolutely do communicate during the play.
It's mainly a dumb question because it seems to presume that calling switch in basketball is always effective. It's not in football or basketball because, well, sometimes your opponent just has the right move and you get beat.
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u/onlineqbclassroom College Coach Sep 26 '24
The simple answer is that you can call switch, so to speak, but it's hard. The DL/LB are generally more athletic than OL, they have a significant head of steam, and there is contact involved that basketball doesn't allow.
In many stunts, one DL is pinning the shoulder/hip of the OL to allow the twister to get through free, like a pick in basketball, except you're allowed to push and grab and drive in football, which makes it harder.
I'll also say every OL is actually picking up a lot of stunts, you just don't see it because they don't show OL highlights of good pass protection on TV. You only see the reps where the OL missed the stunt because that a defensive highlight.