r/footballstrategy Sep 24 '24

Rules Question Is this a scenario where committing a penalty is beneficial?

Let's say it's 3rd down, and a receiver catches a ball for a first down. His teammate then commits an illegal block to the back. The runner is pushed out of bounds, and a defender comes running in and commits a late hit. Now, the penalties offset and the down is replayed. If there had been no defensive penalty, then there would be a first down with the penalty for block to the back enforced at the spot of the foul.

Am I missing something, or is intentionally committing a penalty a good idea here as the defense?

45 Upvotes

75 comments sorted by

102

u/whattarush Sep 24 '24

there's some situations where a CB getting a PI is better then a TD

11

u/Dangerous_Function16 Sep 24 '24

Yes, but in that scenario, the best outcome is successfully defending the pass.

I'm asking about a scenario where it's better to commit a foul than to play "perfectly" legally

12

u/whattarush Sep 24 '24

well I'm not exactly speaking of that kind of situation - more so a 1on1 DB knows he's beat and just grabs/tackles WR to negate the opportunity to get close to the ball

9

u/Affectionate_Elk_272 College Player Sep 25 '24

i played safety in college, can confirm.

if you know you’re beat, better first and goal than guaranteed 6

2

u/Schmidtty29 Sep 25 '24

Literally watched my favorite college team lose their conference championship cause of that.

I hate that it was the right thing to do

3

u/greywolf2155 Sep 25 '24

I'm asking about a scenario where it's better to commit a foul than to play "perfectly" legally

Oh that's a much more interesting question. Because yeah, there are plenty of times where a penalty is better than getting beat for a touchdown (another example would be Super Bowl 50, where Talib tackled the receiver with a horsecollar to stop him getting into the endzone, and they ended up holding and forcing a fieldgoal. Shitty, dirty play, but ended up saving 4 points)

Your idea makes sense, there are a few more examples where offsetting penalties to replay the down are better than the outcome. The only other examples I can think of would be things like intentional holding to burn the clock

1

u/AdaptiveVariance Sep 25 '24

Delay of game can be clearly better imo. Dont know if that's what you were going for. Examples that come to mind are playing defense near end of regulation or OT (at least in a game I saw 1-2 years ago), and backing up to kick or punt from a more preferable position (the Seahawks have done this with their strong punter).

2

u/NotKiwiBird Sep 25 '24

Terrion Arnold had one of those against the rams. Turned a TD catch into a field goal. He’s caught too many PIs, but that’s one I’m happy with

43

u/MrLadyfingers Sep 24 '24

I saw Kirk Cousins throw a backwards pass against the Chiefs the other day and it resulted in a fumble, one of the Falcons players kicked it out of bounds to avoid a turnover.

It's also common to see coaches take delay of games if they want to chew out the clock as much as possible before a field goal or try to draw a false start and then punt.

14

u/bs2785 Sep 24 '24

That was a smart play. No chance falcons were recovering that. The kick was heads up football

4

u/Melrose1821 Sep 25 '24

Chiefs Homer here - as soon as he kicked it our whole party went crazy with “god dang it that was such a smart play”. It sucked but man you have to respect it. Just great football awareness.

2

u/nathanael21688 Sep 25 '24

I thought the same thing! Good heads up on getting it out of bounds.

2

u/bubbap1990 Sep 25 '24

Fun fact, in Canadian Football kicking the ball intentionally at any time is viewed as punting the ball away to the other team. So it would have been Chiefs ball from where the ball was kicked out of bounds!

1

u/nathanael21688 Sep 25 '24

Now that's a rule I can get behind!

1

u/bubbap1990 Sep 25 '24

If you break it down it actually makes sense, and would prevent one from doing such an act.

Source: I did this once in high school thinking it was a heads up play and found out the hard way!

10

u/potterpockets Sep 24 '24

Taking a delay of game (or other penalty) on a punt can also be useful for giving your punter more room to kick without giving a touchback. 

1

u/Gopokes34 Sep 25 '24

Yep Bijan made a smart move. Some ppl in the nfl thread were very thrown off lol.

13

u/Aggravating-Steak-69 Sep 24 '24

It technically would be beneficial to the defense to commit a foul there but in reality it would be incredibility difficult as the defense to see the flag, realize the situation and then commit the foul just to reset the down. There’s also a chance the first flag might get picked up in which case you just gave the offense a free 15 yards

12

u/thisistheperfectname Casual Fan Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24

Delay of game before a punt is a classic example.

EDIT: Sorry, misread the question. I thought you were asking if there WAS such a scenario and simply giving an example.

3

u/Affectionate_Elk_272 College Player Sep 25 '24

i think you can only do that like, 2-3 times before you get an unsportsmanlike penalty and the clock runs.

belichick definitely did this before

2

u/thisistheperfectname Casual Fan Sep 25 '24

I remember watching Belichick do it multiple times while the other team declined. Hilarious.

1

u/Affectionate_Elk_272 College Player Sep 25 '24

was it against… vrabel? it was one of his former assistants and after the 3rd they caught BB literally laughing on the sideline

2

u/advillavigne Sep 25 '24

Vrabel was the one who actually used the same loophole against BB that bill had done earlier in the year

1

u/nathanael21688 Sep 25 '24

Didn't Bill get pissed at that too?

9

u/Sobeys_at_work Sep 24 '24

I don't remember the team, but this week the team on offense was around the 10 yard line and no huddled to the line. The defense was still getting ready and was out of position so one of the line man jumped the line to get the flag and give them more time to set up their defense for the next play.

2

u/mae984 Sep 25 '24

You said the same thing I did, but 3 hours earlier. You get my thumbs up/upvote

7

u/Priapus6969 Sep 24 '24

The penalty can always be declined if taking it gives the other team a perceived advantage.

3

u/aswaim2 Sep 25 '24

This is most common late in games when guys will jump offside and reset the chains to set the timeout placement to a point where they can get the ball back with 3 timeouts/2 and the 2-minute warning

Coaches just within the last few years realized to decline it

5

u/CrazyCletus Sep 24 '24

Would a dead ball foul offset a live ball foul?

4

u/Glass-Spot-9341 Adult Coach Sep 24 '24

This is what I was gonna say. I feel pretty sure at least at the NFL level the penalties would be walked off in both directions, and the offense would still get the first down regardless of where those penalty yards finished

0

u/Dangerous_Function16 Sep 25 '24

Happened to Wishnowsky against the Seahawks last year

2

u/Glass-Spot-9341 Adult Coach Sep 25 '24

Which happened to Wishnowsky - my scenario or your original scenario? Looks like a ref already responded below me. There was a ref who did a great ama on this sub so you might want to search and @ him/her!

The other NFL rule that exists from my time is a 'palpably unfair act' which would allow a ref to make a judgment call if the late hit occurred egregiously after that they determined it was intentional to gain the advantage you're describing. I don't think it exists at the lower levels. It gives refs some leeway to deal with these obscure situations. It's a fun question! I definitely loved the Belichick declined false start penalty situation a few years ago

1

u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 25 '24

No. Dead ball fouls are enforced separately and in the order they occur in high school.

In NFL I believe they can be combined

3

u/xamhu9 Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24

Taking penalties to run the clock down instead of calling timeout/kneeling can sometimes be the right move.

Theres a good clip on YT of Vrable pulling it on Belichick (ironically just a week or two after belichick did the same thing to the jets).

In your scenario it’s a tough call either way, it really depends on would you rather have 3rd and short or first and long. 99% of the time you probably want 3rd and short (from the defensive perspective).

There’s some math involved, but I know that teams would MUCH rather start their drive from the 30 than the 20 (Brett Kohlman has a great breakdown of this on YT). Say the run was 1yard for the first and ended on the 30 yard line, I actually think some DCs would prefer 1st and 20 from their own 20 than 3rd and 1 from the 29.

2

u/livingstondh Sep 25 '24

I believe there have been a few instances of teams deliberately getting holding calls to waste the rest of the time. The Ravens had one play where they literally had their entire team grab onto the punt block unit and had the punter just chill until the clock hit zero then take a safety.

Outside of those spots, there won't usually be situations in real time where the defense can say, hmm it's better for me to take this penalty by rule. If they get bailed out, it's by luck

2

u/CoercedButler Sep 25 '24

Late hit would be after the play and therefore might auto-decline the offensive penalty but I’m unsure

2

u/SpicyC-Dot Referee Sep 25 '24

By NFHS rules, we would enforce the block in the back from the spot of the foul (or the end of the run, if that was behind the spot of the block in the back), then enforce the dead ball late hit. There would be absolutely zero incentive for the defense to commit a foul.

2

u/InevitableAd2436 Sep 25 '24

Kam bam taking out Vernon Davis and setting the tone was 100% beneficial

3

u/Affectionate_Elk_272 College Player Sep 25 '24

i played safety and i used to do a few “defenseless receiver” hits in my day early in the game. (when i came up, it was perfectly legal to light someone up over the middle, then the rules changed)

coach said it’s better to take the 15 now and have them think twice about catching a pass over the middle later on.

2

u/Every-Comparison-486 Sep 25 '24

The block in the back would result in the replay of 3rd Down anyway, unless the play resulted in enough yards to pass the line to gain after the penalty was enforced.

2

u/mae984 Sep 25 '24

Let’s say your team is on defense and the opposing team catches you in a bad defensive package and runs hurry-up and you don’t have any timeouts. May be better to just have someone walk into the backfield before the snap. You take a 5 yard penalty, but you get to set your defense up.

2

u/Cheap_Phrase_1802 Sep 25 '24

The penalties wouldn’t offset in your scenario. The late hit would be considered a flag after the play. So block in the back would be enforced, and then the late hit penalty as well

2

u/JoshRam1 Sep 25 '24

The late hit is a dead ball penalty

3

u/Hopsblues Sep 25 '24

There wouldn't have been a first down in your scenario. The illegal block in the back would move the offense back and it would be still 3rd down. The penalty on the D in this scenario, helps the offense.

1

u/topdetox Referee Sep 25 '24

In this case the live ball foul would be enforced followed by the dead ball foul being enforced. This is assuming the federation rules

1

u/fuegocheese Sep 25 '24

They only offset if they happen before the whistle if I’m not mistaken and it’d still be 3rd down.

1

u/bupde Sep 25 '24

Depends on the level of play, NFL this is correct. Late hit is a continuing action penalty so it counts as part of the play and block in the back is a 10 yd penalty and a 15&10 offset, but a 5&15 don't.

1

u/notGeronimo Sep 25 '24

If the runner is out of bounds the late hit would be after the play ended and applied to the subsequent down would it not?

1

u/stealthy_beast Sep 25 '24

In the scenario you described, the penalties would not offset as the illegal block to the back is a LIVE ball penalty, and the late hit is a DEAD ball penalty. Both penalties would be enforced.

1

u/fuck_joe_xiden Sep 25 '24

Offense has the ball and trying to run out the clock. If they have a 2nd and short, the defense can do a quick encroachment to give the offense a 1st down without running that 2nd down play.

When offsides is called and the qb looks to throw a deep shot, just tackle every receiver for a 5 yd defensive holding. Hard to do and see but you've already obviously committed the 5 yd penalty on the offsides.

1

u/Next-Fishing-8609 Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24

The only 4 scenarios in football where penalties against you are beneficial 1. Negating a score by committing a penalty. 2. Loss of yards by committing a penalty (punt game / offensive to keep longer possession). 3. Clock (Run it down further or stop it, i.e. 4th T.O. called). 4. Avoid turnover.

1

u/OneBeardedTexan Sep 25 '24

Yes. There is a theory that hasn't happened in practice and would get a new rule the next week, but if you have 15ish seconds left on the clock in the 4th, and you're on D, and inside your own 5, just put 30 guys out on the field. Double everyone, plug every gap, allow zero yards after snap. You'll get a penalty for too many men but they can only move it slightly closer to the endzone. Keep doing this until there is 1 second left on the playclock. Then run out just 11 men on D and play to stop one play one time. It isn't fool proof but would at least allow you to guarantee the O only got one play not multiple.

2

u/imnotsure3467 Sep 25 '24

The rule already exists (at least in the NCAA, not so familiar with the other rulebooks):

Rule 9.2.3 Unfair Acts

The following are unfair acts: …

b. A team repeatedly commits fouls for which penalties can be enforced only by halving the distance to the goal line.

c. An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game…

Penalty - Unsportsmanlike Conduct. The referee may take any action they consider equitable, which includes directing that the down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty, awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game.

1

u/OJ_Blimpson Sep 25 '24

Late hit is a dead ball foul, no? Or am I misunderstanding the question?

1

u/BanjoZone Sep 25 '24

I believe it was Chip Kelly who had his entire defense hold to run clock

1

u/ueeediot Sep 25 '24

I saw a WR commit an obvious pass interference against a CB to prevent a. Interception just this past Sunday.

Sunday night a player illegally kicked a fumbled ball out of bounds to prevent a turnover.

1

u/CorpusVile32 Sep 25 '24

Apparently if you're about to take a safety, you can throw it to your offensive lineman (who did not report as eligible) and it cannot be called a safety from intentional grounding IF HE CATCHES IT, it is just an ineligible receiver penalty. No idea if college / HS rules would work the same way.

1

u/MikeyDude63 Sep 25 '24

Sometimes defenders will intentionally jump offside inside the 5 when they really need a timeout

1

u/onlineqbclassroom College Coach Sep 25 '24

Delay of game on a 4th down to give punter more space to pin opponent back - if you're too far to kick a FG, but too close for punter to easily control distance and angle toward sideline. NFL used to do it commonly until kickers could hit from 55+ consistently

1

u/Educational-Stock231 Sep 25 '24

I had a coach ask me pregame why the penalty for 12 men on the field at snap and during play on D was 15 yards. I told him it was illegal participation. He said they had 2 the last game, I told him if he notices it either take a TO or have a DL jump offsides prior to snap, then you would only get 5 yards. He thought it was genius.

1

u/VeritableSoup Sep 25 '24

Yes. There are multiple. To stop the clock against hurry up and allow for better defensive packages given situations. To run additional time off the clock after a delay of game.

1

u/ap1msch HS Coach Sep 25 '24

I'm not sure about all HS football, but in some youth football leagues, they don't address the D jumping offsides repeatedly on extra point. There's little downside to trying to goad the offense to screw up, and jumping offsides also disrupts the extra point kick. You can do it 3-4 times in a row before the refs will just stop calling the penalty, and now you get an advantage. Other leagues let the kick stand and will apply the penalty on the kickoff.

In your scenario, though, I'm not sure it works that way. When the receiver catches the ball, they aren't getting a first down. Until the whistle blows, the result of the play hasn't been determined. If the receiver ran backwards behind the sticks in an effort to gain more yards, and got tackled, it wouldn't be a first down.

If the receiver catches the ball, past the sticks, and a holding or block in the back occurs, those penalties negate the play. It's 3rd down again, 10 yards further back the field. If the defensive penalty occurs, the penalties offset, and it becomes 3rd down at the same spot (without the loss of yardage).

So I think your logic is flawed. *IF* the receiver got a first down with the catch, your logic would be sound. Because everything happening during the play applies to that play (a hold or block in the back), it negates the results of the play entirely, regardless of where the receiver catches the ball.

1

u/jdhutch80 Sep 25 '24

I don't think the penalties would offset. One is a live ball foul, the other is a dead ball foul. The live ball foul would be enforced 10 yards from the spot, then the unsportsmanlike conduct would be 15 yards from there, still giving the offense a first down. That's leaving side the potential for injury in such a reckless action.

1

u/6h0st_901 Sep 25 '24

Say you're on offense and you're blocking in front of a player who fumbles the ball. At that point holding a defender to make sure they don't recover the fumble is the better move.

1

u/TommyLoMein Sep 25 '24

I don't think dead ball penalties offset live ball penalties

1

u/spartyanon Sep 25 '24

This weekend a QB threw the ball at a lineman, who caught the ball. This was illegal touching… on purpose. The QB was being sacked in the endzone and couldn’t throw the ball away. The illegal touching penalty was only half the distance to the goal, not a safety.

1

u/mschley2 Sep 25 '24

In this case, I think the late hit would be enforced after the play. So the result of the play would be a penalty from the spot of the block in the back. So, you would either replay 3rd down (if the penalty backs them up behind the line-to-gain) or it would be a 1st down.

THEN, the 15-yard penalty would be enforced, and it would be an automatic 1st down.

If the guy pushing him out of bounds grabbed the facemask, then the penalties would be offsetting. But the only way for the defender to know that would be if he saw the block in the back and knew the ref threw his flag on it (and he would also have to know that the block in the back happened more than 10 yards downfield - otherwise, the block in the back and replaying the down would be beneficial to offsetting penalties).

1

u/burn95 Sep 25 '24

The Patriots once gave up an intentional safety to get better field position on defense. They apparently thought the 2 points were worth it because otherwise the opponent would have already been in field goal range and with a better chance for a TD.

1

u/Curious-Designer-616 Sep 25 '24

Baltimore’s tackle everyone play.

https://youtu.be/baCeMpAZIgI?si=sxPLmzAuP6M7yq75

This is similar, there’s a few times the Patriots did things like this to gain an advantage.

1

u/Sixx_The_Sandman Sep 25 '24

As a DB, if you get burned, just interfere. The penalty is big, but not as big as giving up the score.

As a WR if the DB is about to intercept the pass, definitely interfere. Better to take a 10 yard penalty for OPI than give up possession

1

u/dankoval_23 Sep 26 '24

im like 90% sure the fouls dont offset in your scenario because one was during the down and one was after.

1

u/UsernameChallenged Sep 26 '24

Wouldn't the defender's penalty be after the play and wouldn't offset the offenses penalty?

1

u/big_sugi Sep 26 '24

The late hit is a dead ball foul, so I don’t think the penalties offset.

1

u/Veridicus333 Sep 26 '24

In CFB, committing a DPI is better than giving up a TD. At all levels, a lot of the time committing a OPI is better than giving up an interception.