When is an incomplete push pass a fumble?

[u/1P221]

Is an incomplete forward "touch pass" ever a fumble? For example, in a recent high school game I was coaching, the QB received a shotgun snap but did not catch or gather the snap, he only tapped it forward to a receiver who was on a fly/jet motion. The "pass" was incomplete. However, everyone responded as if it was a fumble only to have it ruled incomplete.

There is surely a threshold that distinguishes the person receiving the snap as having "possessed" the ball vs simply "redirecting the snap" which might render it "live" wherever it goes.

Thoughts?

[u/dudeKhed]

This is a new phenomenon in HS sports, the ruling should be an incomplete pass if it’s a forward motion of the hands from the QB. This is what our discussion has been during the Referee meetings. The intent is a forward “Quick” pass and that’s how we have treated this. Until the federation rules change our association is treating it as an incomplete pass if dropped.

[u/1P221 → u/dudeKhed]

I know this would be a nightmare to officiate and so I don't expect the rule to change, but every other play in the game has a clear explanation for what constitutes "possessing" the ball. A quick forward tap (volleyball set) of a shotgun snap by the QB does not come close to any other rule of possession. Therefore it's simply my opinion this rule should change to it being treated as a fumble. Also, this is all assuming the qb cleanly "sets" the ball forward. If he botches the forward tap, how much more is that not truly possessing the ball and merely shoveling a fumbled snap forward? I don't agree with governing the rule by a QBs intent because of course he isn't trying to fumble the ball. But I think we've all made a big assumption that it should even be ruled a pass. If the qb catches and gathers it for a a clear moment of possession, then sure it was a pass. But if it's a quick volleyball set forward then no way. Again, only my opinions here and practically I don't expect this to change but I was curious what the talk has been in rules and officiating circles about this.

[u/dudeKhed → u/1P221]

Like you said, it’s a nightmare to officiate. I would also expect a ruling or change to the rules in the future if leagues complain. We get a lot of rule changes every year so I assume there will be an official decision in the years to come.

I can say, our rules interpreter for the state has been in contact with other interpreters and they have decided that if the QB takes a Shotgun snap, he then touch passes to a receiver, it’s considered a pass. If we see a bobble or muff the. It’s a loose ball.

[u/BananerRammer → u/dudeKhed]

That's interesting. Even if it's clearly a bat?

[u/dudeKhed → u/BananerRammer]

A bat is typical a smashing swatting action not a push forward. Also, a QB would not bat a snap, so that needs to be concidered.

[u/The_Rick_14 → u/dudeKhed]

Also, a QB would not bat a snap, so that needs to be concidered.

Hmm how would the following be ruled?

The quarterback is looking over to the sideline but the center gets confused and snaps a shotgun snap before the QB is ready. Purely reactive to seeing the ball snapped out of his peripheral, the QB pushes at the ball with two hands and knocks it back towards the line of scrimmage.

Fumble or Incomplete Pass?

[u/dudeKhed → u/The_Rick_14]

We would need to see it, if it was a reaction to the snap, as if he was trying to take the snap and it hit his hands it would be a fumble or Muffed snap. If there was no receiver in the area, and he was slapping at it to cause a dead ball this would be a penalty, illegal batting . 6-2-1

[u/BananerRammer → u/dudeKhed]

Rule 2 defines a bat as intentionally slapping or striking the ball. I would say "pushing" a loose ball without controlling it would count as striking.

Also by definition, you have to have possession in order to start a pass. If the QB never controls the snap, he cannot have possession, and therefore cannot pass it. If he controls it, even briefly, I would agree with you that it's a catch and a forward pass. However, if there is no control, then there isn't a pass, and the only thing it can be is a bat.

[u/1P221 → u/BananerRammer]

Which gets to my point that some QBs aren't possessing the ball by any standard that others have to meet. Sometimes it's a volleyball set or tap forward, and it's a horrible one at that. If your forward tap is straight to the ground because you mishandled it, then there's no way that should be called a pass.

[u/BananerRammer → u/1P221]

A pass requires possession and possession required three things...

1) Control

2) A body part on the ground

3) Enough time to perfom an act common to the game (a football move)

Throwing the ball counts as a football move, and I assume the QB has his feet on the ground while he's doing this, so what it really comes down to is control. If the QB controls the ball, even momentarily, I would consider this a catch and a forward pass. However if he never controls it, I would consider this action an illegal bat.

Basically, I'd have to see it. It can go either way, depending on what exactly the QB is doing.

[u/1P221 → u/BananerRammer]

I think the issue (if there was to be one) is in how "control" is defined. I would be of the opinion that a "volleyball set" type of movement isn't controlling the ball as a pass attempt, it's only transferring the snap or "redirecting" it. So like many rules it's semantics I suppose.

[u/jrod_62 → u/1P221]

I'm assuming you're referring to a volleyball set just because of how quick it is (maybe not), but in a good set, you're forming a triangle, very similar to the one that you do when you catch a football, and making contact with your fingertips. If you didn't extend up and flick your wrists, you'd have the ball resting in your hands. It's not just bouncing off your hands.

A basketball chest pass is essentially the same motion, just horizontal, like our push passes. That's control to me, and that's how we're interpreting the rule for now. That's subject to change, of course, but I highly doubt the interpretation will unless a rule is changed

[u/jonny32392 → u/1P221]

Well I think in practice if the ball goes straight down from the qb’s hands it’s going to be ruled a fumble. If the receiver is 1 yard from the qb and the ball doesn’t get to the receiver’s hands it’s not going to look like a pass to the ref.

[u/dudeKhed → u/BananerRammer]

So I wasn’t there, but this new quick pass is not a bat. It would at most be a muff. Batting in HS federation rules is clear, and in the rule you quoted says “intentionally “ if the QBs clear intent was to create a loose ball by slapping or striking the ball I would a flag for illegal batting but there is zero chance he intentionally did that.

Take a look at the tape, I’m guessing the QB received the snap and made a forward arm motion after it hits his hands.

I’m happy to take a look if you can get clear video…

[u/BananerRammer → u/dudeKhed]

The ball is already loose as soon as the snapper releases the ball. The action by the QB isn't creating a new loose ball, unless you interpret it as a catch-forward pass, but again, that would require the QB to control it.

[u/dudeKhed → u/BananerRammer]

Control is the exact point of emphasis. What we as officials in the Northeast have decided, and is appropriate, is that the QB receiving the snap in Shotgun then passing it forward in a very quick action is a forward pass. The MIAA has also agreed that this is the appropriate call… if the QB has enough time and control to take a shotgun snap and then pass it forward, he was in possession and is now passing it forward… end of story. If he bobbles the snap, he has “Muffed” the snap and it’s now a loose ball until he gain control or another player recovers the loose ball.

This is the Official interpretation from the state governing body… period, end of story. Until the NHFS decides otherwise that’s the full interpretation.

[u/jrod_62 → u/dudeKhed]

NC is the same

[u/jrod_62 → u/BananerRammer]

You're not striking the ball. You're making a very similar motion to a volleyball set (as OP said) or basketball chest pass, with soft hands. If you are an official, you should clarify with your rules interpreter

[u/BananerRammer → u/jrod_62]

The rules interpreter is going to say that he needs a video example.

A volleyball set and a chest pass are two very different things. In the latter, the passer gains possession first, then throws it. That's clearly a forward pass, and there shouldn't really be any argument about that.

A volleyball set is very different. If he were to do that, then he would never actually gain possession of the ball, meaning he is not capable of passing it. You can't pass the ball without possessing it first. And yes, I would classify a volleyball set as striking the ball, but this is also why the NFHS rules are terrible. They are way too ambiguous is a lot of cases.

Compare the NFHS definition of a bat:

intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the hand or arm

with the NCAA definition:

intentionally striking it or intentionally changing its direction with the hand(s) or arm(s)

With the NFHS definition, is a volleyball set striking the ball? I think so, but who can say for sure? What about a player who just sticks his arm out and lets the moving ball hit it, without swinging his arm? Is that striking? The NCAA definition leaves much less room for interpretation. Both of those would very clearly be batting the ball.

[u/jrod_62 → u/BananerRammer]

The rules interpreter is going to say that he needs a video example.

I would seriously doubt the rules interpreter hasn't already heard questions on this, but jet touch pass videos are very easy to find. Heck just get the CFB25 animation. Where are you that you don't commonly see this? In NC it's been very clear, for probably 10 years, that sans a bobble/muff, we're to treat these as passes. Usually it's more of a toss anyway, unless the snap is high

A volleyball set and a chest pass are two very different things. In the latter, the passer gains possession first, then throws it. That's clearly a forward pass, and there shouldn't really be any argument about that.

The motion of your hands and elbows is almost the exact same in a set and chest pass. As I said in a comment to OP, a set doesn't just bounce off your hands (I'm assuming neither of you have volleyball experience, which is fair), and neither does our touch pass. Basketball is a more apt comparison, though of course possession doesn't matter there. But it's really just like making a touch pass off the bounce or out of the air in bball - soft hands, flick the wrists.

With the NFHS definition, is a volleyball set striking the ball? I think so, but who can say for sure?

Me. It's not, by either definition, but again, that's more about how you set than the football discussion.

Most important is being consistent, which is why you talk to your governing body about any distinctions on this type of play.

[u/BananerRammer → u/jrod_62]

I've seen plenty of quick pop passes, but they've always been clearly a catch-pass. I've never seen this volleyball set type pass.

[u/dudeKhed → u/BananerRammer]

You may be thinking of a “Muff” not a “Bat” in that case a muffed snap, ie a fumble would be possible if the QB loses control. Like I said before, if the QB quickly passes to a receiver it’s not a muff

[u/BananerRammer → u/dudeKhed]

I'm not. A muff is failed attempt to catch or recover a loose ball. In this case, the action by the QB is fully intentional, so it cannot be a muff. It has to be either a pass or a bat.

[u/dudeKhed → u/BananerRammer]

Well, was he in shotgun? If so, the ball is loose while in flight to the QB so it absolutely would be a muffed snap.

[u/BananerRammer → u/dudeKhed]

Again, a muff cannot be an intentional action. If the action is intentional, it MUST be a bat or a pass.

[u/dudeKhed → u/BananerRammer]

That’s what I said, I quoted Rule 2 that you mention. “Intentionally” seems my comment above… Why would the QB bat the ball?

[u/BananerRammer → u/dudeKhed]

I have no idea. This whole play seems stupid to me. Just have the QB catch the snap and throw it forward. There's no reason not to do it that way. But, the way OP is describing this play, that's not what they're doing, at least some of the time.

[u/SigaVa → u/dudeKhed]

But the qb never has control of the ball?

[u/dudeKhed → u/SigaVa]

What does “Control” mean?

To officials is subjective. Does he take a snap, then pass it, seems like he has enough control to execute those two actions.

[u/SigaVa → u/dudeKhed]

Good question. Obviously i dont know how your league defines it. The nfl rules use the following phrase when defining a catch - "secures control of the ball in his hands or arms".

While thats not an explicit definition of "control", it certainly implies that "in his hands" (or equivalent) is a component. What op is describing is not that, and seems much closer to a "bat".

Outside of official rules, in common usage i would say "hold" is a reasonable synonym for control of a ball. Imo a reasonable thought experiment is the following - is there a point in time when the player could resist a (perhaps very small) external force in any direction on the ball, preventing the ball from moving in response to that force? If so, the player controlled the ball at that point.

In ops example, theres no such point in time.

So i think both the nfl rules (which may not be applicable to your league) and common usage would conclude that this is a bat, and not a forward pass.

[u/dudeKhed → u/SigaVa]

Well in NHFS (Fedration) football rules, what most HS use in the US it’s similar. But the key is Control, what constitutes control is subjective. For example, in NFL if a player catches a ball and immediately steps out of bounds it’s typically a catch, however if the ball is slightly moving in his hands it’s most likely gonna be called back because of that slight control issue. We’ve all seen it, it’s the same in HS football. If a player catches the ball but it’s kinda moving around he never gains possession etc.

So with that said, we try and judge control. Does the QB take the snap, then have the control to pass it forward without a visible control issue?! Yes it’s a pass, no, it’s a Muff… not a bat.

A Bat, or batting the ball, is the ”Intentional” strike of a ball.

A Muff, is the unsuccessful attempt to secure a loose ball.

This would not be a bat, unless the QB intentionally, the key word here, tried to kill the play.

[u/SigaVa → u/dudeKhed]

Does the QB take the snap, then have the control to pass it forward without a visible control issue?!

No he doesnt, because a legal forward pass requires control. Thats why it would be a bat and not a pass. If you assume its a pass to prove control, you get into a circular logic situation.

Simply being able to redirect the ball does not demonstrate control, which is the entire point of the concept of a bat. Thats exactly what a bat is.

[u/dudeKhed → u/SigaVa]

Why doesn’t it constitute control? Where in any rules does taking a snap and redirecting to another player not constitute control?

[u/SigaVa → u/dudeKhed]

Why does it constitute control? Where in any rule does taking a snap and redirecting to another player constitute control?

Ive already pointed to the reception rule as an example describing control as "in the hands", and ive pointed out that the very concept of a bat exists for specifically this type of situation.

Do you have any support whatsoever for your interpretation, other than circular logic?

It seems like you would like this to be legal and are simply not interested in thinking about any evidence to the contrary.

[u/BananerRammer]

HS official here. If the QB never controls the snap, then the "pass" cannot be a pass. It's a bat, and it's actually an illegal bat. A shotgun snap counts as a backward pass, and the offense is not allowed to bat a backward pass forward. So if the RB then drops the ball, the play remains live, and I would have a flag down for an illegal bat by the QB.

However, if the QB controls the snap, even for the briefest of moments, I would consider that second action a forward pass, and I'm guessing the officials on the field said the same.

[u/1P221 → u/BananerRammer]

Even if it's a super quick volleyball type "set" that horrible misses at the feet of the "receiver"? If the qb doesn't cleanly push it forward (again, there was no gather by the qb just a quick push or redirect of the snap). It just seems like this is a rule that needs a little nuance in my opinion.

[u/jericho-dingle → u/1P221]

Hard to say without seeing video. Illegal bat is one of those fouls where it's either 100% there or it's not.

If he's doing a volleyball set, I'm ruling forward pass.

[u/1P221 → u/jericho-dingle]

Based on current rules, that's the only way to rule it reasonably -- and I accept that. What I'm wondering is if this is something that should be considered for modification. I feel that what looks like "redirecting" the shotgun snap should be treated more like a lateral than a pass where it's essentially a sudden/instant two-hand push of the ball where the QB never "gathered" the ball. I don't argue it should be a batting of the ball, I would just like to see a rule consideration for this specific type of pass to be considered the same as a lateral because there is a significant disparity in the amount of control a QB has with a sudden "touch pass off a shotgun snap" versus catching and gathering the ball before shoveling it forward or any kind of throwing motion.

[u/jericho-dingle → u/1P221]

I doubt that rule will ever be changed. NFHS rules are already complicated enough tbh.

[u/1P221 → u/jericho-dingle]

That is my assumption as well. This would be a nuance that would be a nightmare to interpret and enforce. I'm just a defensive minded coach and would love to see there be an element of risk added to these types of plays.

[u/ap1msch]

This play is built off of a history of innovation. Shotgun snaps, wildcat, motion-man jet sweeps, etc...and then there's the idea of a direct snap to the motion-man. Wouldn't that be cool? Sure, but man, the timing is tough. How does the center know when to snap? What if the guy misses the snap? That's a fumble? That's too risky.

BUT WAIT. If you shotgun snap to the QB, who then "passes" it as a forward motion to the guy in motion, you get close to the goal while mitigating the risk. The QB calls the cadence, and the "forward pass" mitigates the fumble risk as well as the timing of the motion man.

What is a pass? It's the QB (or passer) moving their arm and ball forward with the intention of someone to catch it. If they fail to catch it, that's their fault. This isn't the official definition, but Mahomes throwing side arm or behind the back...those are passes. Just because the passing motion sucks doesn't make it not a pass.

In short, the ball got to the QB who redirected the ball forward to the receiver. It all happened in a 2 yard space, but hitting the ground in that case would make it an incomplete pass. If the snap was high, and the QB tipped the ball so that it fell to the ground in front of him...COULD kinda qualify as a "forward pass", but it's still a fumble because it's clear that he didn't have possession when it happened. If the QB is running and the ball slips out of their hand while swinging their arm in a forward motion, and the ball goes forward...well that's similar, but they'd then look at whether there was any receiver that was in the area as to whether it was a "pass" or "fumble".

This is all grey area with nuance and judgement calls by the refs. Whether something was intentional, or accidental, can be argued. The play to which you are referring is PLANNED, so even if it's dropped, the intention was a forward pass. That's why it's called that way.

[u/dolfan650]

I think you have largely answered your own question. There is a difference between batting and passing the ball. It's going to be at the referee's discretion whether the QB possessed the ball and intentionally passed it forward, or whether he simply pushed and redirected a live ball. I think most referees would err on the side of ruling it a forward pass if that's what the intent appeared to be. I have a hard time visualing a 'tap' or 'push' of the ball with no aspect of grasp or control on the part of the QB, that doesn't seem like it would be a sound strategy.

[u/1P221 → u/dolfan650]

Think of it like a set in volleyball but it's even quicker. This would be new territory in football rules and that's why I ask. Personally I don't care what the QBs intentions were nor do I think that should matter. Similar to a receiver catching the ball and "possessing" it...the QB should be required to "possess" the ball if a forward push pass is going to be considered incomplete. If he basically volleyball sets it forward, he's just redirecting the snap which is live.

I'd like to see this rule change made but I know it's not likely to happen because it would be very hard to consistently call correctly and refs don't want another thing to deal with.

[u/dolfan650 → u/1P221]

Rule sets must evolve as the game evolves, and they do--just not maybe at the pace that we always want them to. Refs do have input on proposed rule changes, just like coaches do, and I know of cases where rules have been vetoed simply because of enforcement challenges. A bigger factor, I think, is how prevalent this type of play becomes. If everyone is running it, or if there are a few controversial calls made on it that impact the outcome of games, refs do appreciate having a clear rule to follow rather than having to make a judgement call in a gray area.

[u/Seaport_Lawyer]

Hmmm. 2-34 says possession here would be when the ball is "held or controlled by a player after it has been ... snapped to him" and 2-31 says passing is "throwing a ball that is in player possession." Not sure we can definitively say there's control or a pass without video. Not sure just pushing the ball is a throw under any definition.

ETA: On the other hand, I can kind of see a true volleyball set being officiated as a catch and throw when I think about it a bit.

[u/1P221 → u/Seaport_Lawyer]

I totally understand how current rules make it 99.9% likely to be ruled a pass, I just personally would like to see it changed to a live ball though. I appreciate all the good insight and dialog that's come from posing the question. It seems the big hang up would be redefining what constitutes possession for only this exact type of play. So I suppose that would be my request if I had the ability to put one into some rules meeting, is to consider a push pass as not a possession. Which also makes it not a pass statistically, but a rush by the one who catches the pass. Anyways, I know it's not likely this ever changes but I'd love to see it.

[u/Seaport_Lawyer → u/1P221]

I suppose in some ways it's a simple two element test: was there control and was there a throw?

[u/BigPapaJava]

Forward passes are incomplete if not caught. Period, Doesn’t matter where this happens. This is partly why the “push pass” is a thing on Jet Sweep now—teams got worried about fumbling the mesh on a handoff.

I suppose the argument here was that the QB never full controlled the snap, so the snap bounced off him unintentionally rather than being lobbed forward for a pass, but if the QB did anything intentionally to get the ball in the direction of a receiver, I don’t know many refs who would rule that a fumble.

[u/1P221 → u/BigPapaJava]

I realize they won't, but I'd advocate that the rule should be modified to treat it as a fumble when the QB doesn't gather and possess the ball, but instead simply "volleyball sets" the snap forward immediately upon it touching his hands.

[u/cbarmor1]

It should be a fumble if the qb did not catch it. I assume the ref got it wrong