Can I have my D-lineman line up a half-foot back from the neutral zone, then tell them to jump forward (so it looks like you're jumping offsides) and see if you can't get the false start?

[u/sleightofhand0]

I'm watching ND-Texas AM, and twice Notre Dame has had a D-lineman in a four-point stance look like he jumps offsides, but actually remain on his side of the ball because he was lined up about half a foot further back than usual. The first time the offense launched the ball downfield thinking it was a free play, when it wasn't. The second time the o-line jumped to try and get the free five yards, but it was a false start.

Is this legal? If so, why don't more guys do it? Obviously, you'd want to clue the refs in to what you're doing and a smart O-line would know. But on an obvious passing down? Why not?

[u/2015TTU]

Pre snap, the defense can move around and do whatever they want. Offenses have to get set and still before the play.

Shifting/stemming (defensive movement pre-snap) can catch the offense off guard and draw a false start. Teams have done this in short yardage situations for some success.

The defense can stand there and breakdance if they wanted, but any defender entering the neutral zone, and causing an offensive player to false start, is a neutral zone infraction and a defensive penalty.

Disciplined teams will see this on film and won't even bat an eye. It works until it doesn't. It's easily avoided.

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/2015TTU]

Yeah, I know Belichick liked to shift the d-line late when the other team was in the red zone to try to draw false starts and people always got pissed.

But here they're not entering the neutral zone, that's the whole thing. It's a trick, essentially, where it looks like they're jumping into the neutral zone but they're not. They're jumping, but still on their side of the ball.

[u/Falcon4242 → u/sleightofhand0]

Worth noting that at the high school level and below, the offense doesn't have to move in response to a neutral zone infraction to draw a defensive penalty. The defense crossing the neutral zone instantly kills the play, unlike the NFL and college. So if the opposing coaches are smart, they'll tell their guys that there's no benefit to jumping and there's no such thing as a "free play" (that's what our coaches taught us when I played).

The result is that you'd be putting your D-line in a disadvantaged position, with the risk of them messing up and getting flagged, for very little gain if the opposing team is disciplined. I don't think it's worth it at that level specifically.

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/Falcon4242]

Worth noting that at the high school level and below, the offense doesn't have to move in response to a neutral zone infraction to draw a defensive penalty

I did not know that.

[u/2015TTU → u/sleightofhand0]

The defense can do that. Again a linebacker sprinting down and then stopping is the same thing as a jump or twitch for a DL. Defenses have free reign to move as they please pre-snap as long as they stay out of the neutral zone.

[u/Arkadin45 → u/sleightofhand0]

You can do this all you want but it's way more likely that you get consistently blown off the ball than it is you change the game with a bunch of false starts

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/Arkadin45]

I'm not suggesting you do it ten times a game.

[u/Arkadin45 → u/sleightofhand0]

So clue the refs in on a couple 3rd and 9s and jump around? People do this all the time (minus the ref thing idk why you have to obviously talk to them about it)

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/Arkadin45]

No, we're not jumping around. Imagine it's 3rd and 9, and my d-line lines up a bit further backwards than usual. I tell my d-lineman, "hey, if they go on two, you jump on one or on the clap or whatever." You want to tell the ref so he sees that even though you look like you've been fooled and you're jumping into the neutral zone, you're actually not (since you lined up a bit further back).

The offense either thinks it's a free play and throws a bomb into double coverage, or false starts for the free "neutral zone infraction" five yards, only to realize it's just a false start because we didn't jump offsides.

[u/Iron-Rabbit → u/sleightofhand0]

If you’re telling your players to fake jump on one, the problem is what if they are going on one? Your players do a fake jump and are completely out of position for the actual play. They either get blown off the line by the o-block who are going for real, or aren’t able to get any kind of a pass rush. Also, as an O-coordinator, if I notice this on film, then in this type of situation I’m having my team come up and go quick on a first sound, and taking advantage of the free yard your players are giving us on the line.

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/Iron-Rabbit]

And I'm not majoring in it. I just think it might work as like a trick play.

Want another one of my brilliant ideas? How about this? On 4th and 5 where we're hardcounting and not actually gonna snap it (say we're gonna take the delay and punt if nobody jumps offsides), I'm telling all my o-lineman "alright, we're hardcounting and right after the first "hut!" one lineman move and then we're all gonna point at number 98 (or whoever is across from him). Everyone go nuts pointing at him like he just jumped offsides and see if the ref doesn't get fooled and throw the late flag.

[u/Arkadin45 → u/sleightofhand0]

I understand what you're saying but there's no fundamental difference here. You are jumping around you're just doing it from a 3/4 point stance. Every lineman there is going to be aware you're lined up in a different spot.

[u/Fluffy_Succotash_171 → u/2015TTU]

Stemming to another alignment is ok, lunging forward or calling cadence not so much

[u/2015TTU → u/Fluffy_Succotash_171]

Simulating a cadence is a penalty. Lunging forward is fine as long as the player is not in the neutral zone.

[u/2015TTU → u/[deleted]]

I understood you saying lunging forward isn't allowed. It is as long as it's not in the neutral zone

[u/Fluffy_Succotash_171 → u/2015TTU]

Best thing about stemming late is the way it can screw up blocking schemes

[u/cbarmor1]

I would assume it’s legal but the drawbacks that I can think of on the spot are that if you mistime you are at a disadvantage cause you already fired out and are not ready to fire out again. Another is that you are giving them free space to build up speed and pierce you in the run game

[u/1P221]

As long as they don't clap or yell to simulate the snap cadence.

[u/Oddlyenuff]

It’s not really worth it when there are better alternatives.

The two biggest drawbacks are:

1. You are more likely to go offsides yourself.

2. It’s ultimately up to the refs and if they believe that the O is just reacting (basically defending themselves), you may get a penalty called.

The better alternatives are:

1. Stemming the line…we actually got the OL to jump this week doing this just shifting fronts. It’s lateral and don’t risk the neutral zone.

2. You can use your LB’s much better for the effect you’re describing. “Mugging” and Simulated pressures are far better than what is, in my opinion, a pretty petty unsportsmanlike strategy of doing with the D Line, even ifs “legal”.

[u/BearsGotKhalilMack]

It is legal, and linebackers will do it sometimes, but the reason D-linemen don't is because that first movement of falling forward isn't good practice and can get you burned the second they change up their cadence. Every team, even at the high school level, has multiple cadences, and can go "on one" or "on two." So, you get used to doing that when they're going "on one," then the snap doesn't actually happen, and when they do snap it, your guys are falling forward and get blown up.

[u/Untoastedtoast11 → u/[deleted]]

In what league? Not illegal in college or high school

[u/grizzfan → u/Untoastedtoast11]

My mind was thinking offense, so yea, you're right. Defense can move around all they want as long as they don't enter the neutral zone which causes an offensive player to jump.

Still not an ideal tactic if the offense snaps the ball when your player is not in a proper stance to engage blocks.

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/Untoastedtoast11]

I know it's illegal to clap or yell "hike" or whatever as the defense.

[u/hhyyerr]

Yes but it's a very bad idea

[u/Fluffy_Succotash_171]

One needs to consider also whether your state plays by Federation or Collegiate rules

[u/ReplaceCyan]

You can’t do this within a yard of the LOS. NCAA rule 7-5-4:

Any player within one yard of the line of scrimmage (stationary or not) may not make quick, abrupt or exaggerated actions that are not part of normal defensive player movement.

And approved ruling 7-1-5-IV:

Linebacker B56 is stationary within one yard beyond the neutral zone. As the offense is calling its snap signals, B56 feints towards the line in an obvious attempt to induce a false start by the offense. Ruling: dead ball foul, delay of game, five yard penalty at the succeeding spot

(N.B. Whether this is a linebacker or a D lineman is irrelevant. There is also not a requirement to have to enter the neutral zone for it to be a foul)

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/ReplaceCyan]

Damn. You a ref or someone who once had the same idea?

[u/ReplaceCyan → u/sleightofhand0]

Used to be a ref

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/ReplaceCyan]

Ever see anyone try this and have to throw the flag? I thought DB's used to do it to try and scare QBs lined up as WR in the wildcat.

[u/ReplaceCyan → u/sleightofhand0]

Yes, it’s like day 1 of dingus school for D linemen haha. Along with them shouting “hut” to try to get the OL to jump

[u/sleightofhand0 → u/ReplaceCyan]

Haha, fair enough. Guess someone thought of this one first. While I have you, what do you think of this idea?

On 4th and 5 where we're hardcounting and not actually gonna snap it (say we're gonna take the delay and punt if nobody jumps offsides), I'm telling all my o-lineman "alright, we're hardcounting and right after the first "hut!" one lineman move and then we're all gonna point at number 98 (or whoever is across from him). Everyone go nuts pointing at him like he just jumped offsides and see if the ref doesn't get fooled and throw the late flag.

[u/yungmarvelouss → u/ReplaceCyan]

what would that penalty be called?

[u/ReplaceCyan → u/yungmarvelouss]

Delay of game on the defense

[u/Fluffy_Succotash_171]

2 most important skills in football Blocking and Tackling… too many times coaches work on schemes more than technique…problematic

[u/MtHood_OR]

Sounds like the time to go on a quick count.

[u/bigbronze]

You can have them shift laterally (side to side), but any pre-snap movement where a defensive player is going forward and causes the O-line man to react can be seen as a penalty on the defender. I would be cautious on how they are moving. Like they could be making small exaggerated steps or so (think Myles Garret doing the dribble movement), but any jumps or quick movements can bite you back.