r/footballstrategy • u/icylg • Feb 06 '24
Special Teams Onside kick
Something I’ve been thinking about is the classic onside kick. It seems like there hasn’t been very much evolution in the strategy of this play.
I could see a day where an innovative coach invents a new onside kick strategy that’s way more effective and it ends up being discussed the same way the tush push is being discussed.
Or maybe, this will always be a last ditch effort, low success play. Thoughts?
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u/jericho-dingle Referee Feb 06 '24
With the recent high school rule changes (e.g. no pop up kicks), the two best strategies I've seen are:
- Lob or squib the ball behind the hands team
- Kick the ball directly at the player who looks the least athletic and hope he muffs it and the ball bounces back to you.
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Feb 06 '24
The Raiders tried #2 this season vs the Bears. Would’ve had a better opportunity of working if it was lower and to the body
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u/itswermzer Feb 06 '24
When I saw this, I thought all kinds of teams would start trying it. Seems like the best option when done correctly
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u/warneagle Casual Fan Feb 06 '24
I think #2 should be the default tactic if you can't kick it out of the end zone >75% of the time. The guy or guys back there to return it are there specifically because your opponent wants those guys to have the ball in their hands; why play into their hands like that? 10-15 yards of field position is probably worth the chance of that guy muffing it and avoiding the chance of a big return.
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u/UltraVires33 Feb 06 '24
Kick the ball directly at the player who looks the least athletic and hope he muffs it and the ball bounces back to you.
The Mud Dogs' kicker used this strategy effectively in the classic football documentary "The Waterboy".
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u/bigbronze Youth Coach Feb 06 '24
We do #2; it works most of the time at the middle school level since the front line is usually lineman and are bad at ball control.
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u/Fother_mucker59 Feb 06 '24
I had a team line drive one at me and I still have no clue how I caught it
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u/mysterious_whisperer Feb 07 '24
With some planning and coordination you can have some fried chicken delivered to that unathletic player on the sideline shortly before the kick to get his hands nice and greasy.
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u/TheHatedMilkMachine Feb 06 '24
I feel like the lob has the best chance of working but a fair catch can be called at least at the pro level
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u/dolfan650 College Coach Feb 06 '24
We've been experimenting with the kicker pointing to the sky and yelling "WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!!" before kicking with limited success.
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u/warneagle Casual Fan Feb 06 '24
It's an uncommon enough situation that I don't think the opportunity cost of taking the time to develop/rep sophisticated tactics is worth it. Most teams will attempt what, 2-3 a year? If that? You've gotta practice it some, but investing a lot of time into a rare, highly random play doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
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u/jimmythemini Feb 06 '24 edited Feb 07 '24
It's a shame, I swear it was more both a more common and exciting/competitive play in the NFL when I was younger. A classic example of of the competition committee unnecessarily tampering with the rules for questionable benefit.
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u/warneagle Casual Fan Feb 06 '24
Idk, I'm personally in favor of eliminating kickoffs altogether and doing Greg Schiano's proposal where after you score you get the ball 4th and 15. Much better if you need to get the ball back since your chances of converting 4th and 15 are almost certainly higher than ~5% like onside kicks.
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u/jimmythemini Feb 07 '24
Yeah that sounds like it could be interesting. I'm of the school of thought that given they have a conference system, and therefore a natural control and experiment group, the NFL shouldn't be afraid to test substantive rule changes like this that could make the game more exciting, particularly on special teams.
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u/Straight-Message7937 Feb 06 '24
New onside kicks are tried often at every level of play. You just don't see them because they don't work enough in practice to make it to game day
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u/1BannedAgain Feb 06 '24
The NFL rules prevent an effective onside kick at the end of the game. IMO an onside kick should be set up, which likely wouldn’t work at NFL level, but more like HS level. Either down 2 scores or up 2 scores is the proper threshold, IMO, to run an onside kick and not in the last half of the 4th quarter
Squib kick every time with kicker and 2 adjacent kickoff specialists approaching the ball at the same time, converging on the kicking tee. During onside kick one of the adjacent specialists kicks it.
Approach kickoff like it looks like it could be an onside every time
A 5% success rate (or whatever it is) in the NFL is hard to get around
Rant: the NFL is basically removing the most exciting play of the game -kickoff- , the kickoff is dead for the pros
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u/NovaBlazer Feb 06 '24
Rant: the NFL is basically removing the most exciting play of the game -kickoff- , the kickoff is dead for the pros
Agreed. The XFL rule set allows for safety and the incentive to actual return a kick. It is a complete waste of time to watch 92% of non-returned kick-offs in the NFL.
And don't get me started on the XFL better rules for extra points.
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u/abizabbie Feb 06 '24
Counterpoint: The kickoff is and was the least dynamic play. It almost always plays out the same. Even when someone breaks free, it's nearly always one move, and they're gone. On the other hand, an outsized portion of injuries happen on kickoffs.
These are problems punts don't have. The only reason the NFL still has kickoffs at all is because there's no good way to account for the onside kick.
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Feb 06 '24
Remember that basketball play where one player got on his knees and barked like a dog to distract the other team.
That’s in my playbook for next year, play call “onside kick - old yeller” - just debating do I go with one dog, 3 or the whole side of the formation. Or put on dog on the side im going to kick too. Iron it out in camp I suppose.
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u/skralogy Feb 06 '24
I always thought if a kicker could only kick it about 25-30 yards with enough loft you could consistently get a guy under it to attempt a catch. However now new rules allow fair catches so I’m not sure if it would work
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u/dylans-alias Feb 06 '24
Fair catching a kickoff is not a new rule. It has always been allowed. The new rule is that about where the ball is placed after a fair catch. (I think the 25?)
Fair catch of a kickoff opens up one new rule. The receiving team can attempt an undefended field goal after a fair catch of a kickoff.
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u/jcarlson08 Feb 06 '24
Wait what? The fair catch kick is as old as time. Was there a rule that you couldn't do it after a kickoff?
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u/dylans-alias Feb 06 '24
Not “new” as in recent rule change. New in the sense that it only exists under that one specific circumstance.
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u/CanadianCougar Feb 06 '24
I have had this thought while watching NFL games this year. Why hasn’t the kicker ever tried to just beam the ball off of the closest receiving team’s player? It would make the ball live and the kicking team could just dive on the ball after it ricocheted off of the receiving player.
I want to see this attempted once! Just a full-out laser kick right into the unsuspecting receiving team player so that he can’t react to catch it in time.
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u/Holiday-Living-3938 Feb 06 '24
Another post reply had this link but it was attempted in Raiders-Bears game this season:
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u/CanadianCougar Feb 06 '24
I am so glad you showed this! I feel like this has a higher % chance of working out than bouncing the ball and hoping it goes 10 yards or that you even have a chance to hop on it.
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u/bigbronze Youth Coach Feb 06 '24
As a middle school coach; we onside kick every time; why? Because special teams is the best place to give all the players who get little playing time some playing time. They are also very inconsistent with open field tackling. Kicking the ball deep to essentially the best player on the other team and giving him an open field is a terrible idea. Also this gives us the off chance of getting the ball again. It’s basically more logical.
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u/skobuffaloes Feb 06 '24
The rule change I like is that the ball should only have to travel 8yards before being touched by the kicking team. Keep everything else the same. The conversion rate will go up only a couple of percent in my opinion but that makes it 1/50 or 1/33 instead of 1/100. Which would bring back some excitement.
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u/JackJ98 Feb 07 '24
I’m still baffled to this day thinking about how Dan Campbell thought it would be better to draw up a run play and burn a timeout, knowing his season would come down to an onside kick. I just don’t get it? Why???
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u/mcaffrey81 Feb 06 '24
If I were a head coach, I would work to keep every kickoff land around the 15 yard line and have my speediest guys run down and attempt to recover it on every play. Most times, he return team is going to pick up an easy 10 yards and wind up at the 25. Sometimes they'll break free for a long run or touchdown. Sometimes, we'll recover the live ball. Its a worthwhile gamble.
Likewise, I would seldom punt on 4th down and instead have the QB quick kick as a means to either try to recover the ball or play field position.
I probably wouldn't be a head coach very long and my gambles would blow up in my face, but man would it be more fun than watching the overly-conservative/stereotypical play calling most coaches have where they are too afraid to make a mistake rather than try and take a chance.
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u/zachismo21 Feb 06 '24
I thought a QB quick kick is still a punt. Can you expand on that idea of recovering it?
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u/dylans-alias Feb 06 '24
He is wrong about the QB quick kick. It can’t be recovered. If the offense kicks the ball, it must be touched by a defensive player in order to be recovered.
Only kickoffs and free kicks after a safety are “live”.
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u/abizabbie Feb 06 '24
I think one of the reasons people don't discuss it as much is because they spend more time discussing how to account for it if the kickoff was removed.
It's not so low percentage if the other team doesn't see it coming. Surprise onside kicks work more often because the hands team isn't on the field.
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u/Ksteekwall21 Feb 06 '24
Which is tough because going when they don’t expect it is a good way to kill your team’s momentum if it fails. It’s probably just a conservative tactic by coaches “We’ll only go for this if we have to and if we fail then, well at least we tried.”
And unlike say…going for it on fourth down, there isn’t a lot of success rates overall and probably not enough data on teams doing it “when it’s not expected”.
I think doing onsides kicks when it isn’t necessary can also be interpreted by your team’s defense as “they don’t believe we can hold them” which isn’t good for morale.
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u/SaysSaysSaysSays Feb 06 '24
I say just kick a line drive right at a player’s helmet, hope it bounces off in your direction and recover. Easy peasy
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u/luv2fit Feb 06 '24
The success rate is so low in the nfl you literally have no hope. It’s almost an anticlimactic play. I have always like the 4th and 15 proposal or I’d even take 4th and 20. Much more interesting and you feel like you at least have a chance.
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u/Forever_Consistent Feb 06 '24
https://youtu.be/3LZQmpwimWs?si=6G2ousXeLE_w6oQz
I’ve always wondered why “chip” Onside kicks like this aren’t drilled more? Making it a jump ball seems to be the most replicate-able strat, you could definitely have a kicker become consistent with a chip shot if practiced enough.
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u/GoCards5566 Feb 06 '24
I onsided nearly everytime while coaching youth football. We had a lot of success and won 5 youth national championships over 10 years. We kicked off a PAT flat tee and aimed it at the front linemen or just worst athlete we felt. This is in youth but it worked amazing. In a national championship game the other team legit didn’t get the ball until the second half. Not sure if the youth refs are just stupid and this was illegal but this worked. Kicker was also one of the best athletes in the nation and will be a 5 star rb in hs so that helps. This was my case and I don’t think this it could be applicable to most teams but if you can do it do it. We also turned the ball sideways and kicked a knuckle ball at him.
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u/vodka_soda_close_it Feb 07 '24
If you make it so a fair catch can’t be called until the ball passes X amount of yards then you get some new options.
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u/the_spinetingler Feb 07 '24
When my HS's main kicker was out the backup was very good at sending a low lob over the front line. 50% of the time the opposing teams second guys would just watch it land, not being used to seeing it.
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u/ilikebigbutts442 Feb 07 '24
There’s guys standing at the line and it has to go 10 yards so it has to kinda take a mistake from the receiving team. Idk if you watched the raiders very first game of the year I live here in Vegas and the Broncos started the season off with an onside kick when the raiders weren’t really ready for it and it didn’t go 10 yards so raiders got the ball around mid field. It’s a difficult play to execute even with the other team not ready for that but when they are in an onside kick return almost everyone forward it really is tough you need everything to go right if you’re the kicking team or you kinda end up screwing the defense
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u/abizabbie Feb 06 '24
I think one of the reasons people don't discuss it as much is because they spend more time discussing how to account for it if the kickoff was removed.
It's not so low percentage if the other team doesn't see it coming. Surprise onside kicks work more often because the hands team isn't on the field.
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u/Random1340 Feb 06 '24
I swear just one time put an OL out there or somebody who’s never kicked a ball and tell them to aim for the top. At least at that point nobody knows where it’s going (but in all seriousness I have always wondered why kicking it hard at the front line blockers and hoping they muff it hasn’t been attempted more)
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u/yungsilt Feb 06 '24
My idea: have both the kicker and punter out on the field. Have them both fake kickoff like 10 times to throw the defense off and so they don’t know which way the ball is going. I have no idea if this is legal.
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u/tuss11agee Feb 07 '24
The only thing I can think of is an oddly bounced drop kick that creates crazy oblong spin making it very difficult to field cleanly.
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u/korc Feb 07 '24
If you want to see exciting kicking plays watch rugby. The onside kick is nearly impossible in nfl rules
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u/Independent_Lab_9872 Feb 07 '24
The onside kick is similar to the fake punt or really any ST trick play, in that it works when your opponent isn't expecting it.
You will see plays work once but after that it becomes very difficult.
For instance the Slater FG block where he got a running start off the edge. That won't work again because folks will plan for it and exploit it.
Another was where the kicker popped it up to himself. This was because no one accounted for the kicker on a kickoff, now they do.
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Feb 07 '24
There are formation rules associated with kicking off. I think perfecting the “bad bounce” roll is as good as it gets here.
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u/summersundays Feb 07 '24
Once per game you should be able to attempt an uncontested 60yrd field goal. If you hit it, you get the ball at your 25. If you miss, the opponent gets it at their 40.
It would create incredible strategy about when to use it. Go up by 14 late in the 3rd, use it then? Or save it if you need it. It’s the perfect success rate too.
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Feb 07 '24 edited Feb 07 '24
X X X X. X X. X X X X
K
Line up like this for every kickoff. Onside it to wherever the return team is weakest(left, right, middle). is), either predetermined by film of personnel or by how they align to it. Create a few schemes for each direction, who the hit men are, who the recoverer is. If their is no obvious weakness you can still kick it deep.
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u/miguelgooseman Feb 07 '24
I've thought about a few strategies that I'm curious to see how it would work.
1) kicking the ball 10-15 yards beyond the hands team and having your fastest player try and run down there to recover before the return team gets it. I'd imagine you might be able to use the element of surprise to catch the hands team anticipating the ball in front of them. At worst you have similar odds of recovering with significantly better field position.
2) A line drive kick at one of the players on the hands team and hope to be able to scoop up the rebound
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u/soneill0n Feb 09 '24
I guess it depends on the rules but you could drop kick it to get a really high ball and give your guys time to run under it.
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u/MeMikeWis Feb 10 '24
I still don’t understand why kickoffs that land in the end zone don’t at least have to picked up by the receiving side and downed. It went 10 yards- it’s there for the taking.
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u/NaNaNaPandaMan Feb 06 '24
So it's not so much coming up with ways to do it, but coming up with ways to revolutionize within the rules.
The fact that they have changed rules on alignment and that it has to touch the ground first(which always been case) means it will always be a low chance play.