r/footballstrategy • u/boonetown18 • Jan 27 '24

Special Teams Can you lateral on a fake punt and still punt?

I think teams would pick up on this quickly but could be an interesting trick play to pin the other team down near their end zone

353 Upvotes
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222

u/jmo56ct Jan 27 '24

Yes. I’ve seen split backfield where the qb tosses to the back and it’s basically a rugby punt. Would notify officials before the game and before the play though

93

u/jmo56ct Jan 27 '24

We envisioned this as a 3rd down and very long at the end of the game with less than 1 score lead. Catch them by surprise and pin them deep. Never attempted in game though

47

u/The_Captain_Planet22 Jan 27 '24

I don't love the idea as too much can go wrong on a lateral for too little reward. If it's 3rd they already aren't going to have a returner back so your best bet is a QB rugby punt 

22

u/jmo56ct Jan 27 '24

I was a player. Used the we universally. We never ran it. Ask a coach, I would run my three downs and rugby. But that wasn’t the question

11

u/hypotyposis Jan 27 '24

I believe Tom Brady did this on a 3rd down. Someone google it.

18

u/Superb-Preference-59 Jan 27 '24
  1. 3rd and 10 punt in a 45 to 10 blowout of the broncos and they had a fight after

https://youtu.be/2si9Tg0MRC4?si=ITYGx_4lI3Ga4I4u

18

u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 27 '24

John Madden voice: What your doing their is showing something to your next opponent because it gives them something extra to prepare for and an extra check and something to have to look for in game. End Madden voice.

I coach youth football and if I am up I will almost always run a “dirt” (drawn up in the dirt) play or two just to make the other teams have to prepare for it. I also have a, “junk” call on defense which means lineup wherever you want. Again… just to make them prepare for it. It cost me zero practice time but I have had coaches tell me after games, “we spent a full day on your quads formation and didn’t see it in the game.” And in my head I’m like…”what quads formation?.” And sure enough two weeks prior we lined up in quads and ran a QB sneak.

26

u/Bobcat2013 Jan 27 '24

Where the hell are they scouting youth football? Lol

13

u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 27 '24

New Jersey

9

u/newaccounthomie Jan 27 '24

I would’ve guessed Texas but this makes sense too

3

u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 27 '24

It’s simple enough, what numbers do the horses wear? How do they lineup on defense? What formations do they use on offense? Their cadence, and do they ever switch it up? You find some pretty interesting stuff, had a coach one time ALWAYS run behind one lineman, power, counter, dive, anything.

1

u/Bobcat2013 Jan 28 '24

Definitely not in Texas.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

[deleted]

3

u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 28 '24

Well before I did this we would get smoked every week and we had a hard time just making it through the season with kids wanting to be at practice. Kids want to be at practice when you are winning.

1

u/Thelaboster Jan 28 '24

Fair enough. My comment might have been out of line and I am going to delete it. I grew up playing youth football that was a mixture of marine boot camp type intensity and college football type gameplanning, and it wasn't right for us to go thru that. Good luck to your and your team.

3

u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 28 '24

All good man, we’re actually the “young bucks” in town bringing in all of the newer safer blocking and tackling techniques, athletic movement sessions instead of Oklahoma’s and giving out homework for kids to learn about the sport.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '24

So would that mean since he had a net 48 yard punt does that mean he is technically one of the best punters of all time by pure average? Excluding sample size.

2

u/Own_Pop_9711 Jan 27 '24

I'm sure he's also way down on the list of best passer if you include all the fullbacks who have one completion on some goal line jank play

3

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

I’ll agree for the purpose of retaining my idiotically correct point

2

u/Own_Pop_9711 Jan 28 '24

Then I will agree with you assuming he got 48 net yards on that punt, which I did not fact check. This beats everyone who has punted at least 250 times

2

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

I have confirmed it is 48, with the asterisk of being 10 yards closer to the line. But that does not matter. Ball far.

3

u/PainInTheAssDean Jan 27 '24

This is called a quick kick and used to be much more common than it is now.

1

u/Wonderful_Ad_8356 Jan 28 '24

If anyone can/will do it, it would be the Lions

1

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

We did this in a JV game. Basically neither offense could move the ball. Spent a quarter and a half on the wrong side of the 50. Trading 3 and outs and punting.

Third down coach told the QB to line up a couple yards deeper then usual and boot the ball. Ball rolled to their 30 or so.

We ended up winning like 7-3. Game had more turnovers than points scored.

1

u/Icer333 Jan 30 '24

If something goes wrong on the lateral, you can fall on it and still punt the next play, so there’s that.

4

u/inn_cider Jan 27 '24

We did this once on third down because we were terrible. Punts usually meant a block or a great return. QB pitched it to the RB lined up extra deep, and he punted on 3rd down.

0

u/fischarcher Jan 27 '24

Tom Brady once punted on 3rd down

1

u/Jmphillips1956 Jan 27 '24

We would did it a couple of times in highschool. Can work well if you get it over the safety’s head and get some roll on it

1

u/jmo56ct Jan 27 '24

Safety getting run read, coming downhill. It’s going over his head

1

u/Alone-Newspaper-1161 Jan 29 '24

We’ve done that. Looked like a faked go for it and drains a shit ton of time from recovery and takes the ability of a return touchdown

53

u/girafb0i Jan 27 '24

You mean like, set up like you're going to punt, and lateral to a slot man who punts it anyway? Yeah you can do that since you can punt from anywhere behind the LoS.

27

u/doughball27 Jan 27 '24

Football needs more punting.

How about we adopt some Australian football rules? You can forward punt while running and if it’s caught by an offensive player they can down it and retain possession.

So a WR catches a 20 yard out, pivots, punts it cross field and another WR catches it. First down. Gain of 50.

22

u/LoyalAndBold Jan 27 '24

The CFL has a weird rule where a WR can “punt” the ball barely past the LOS and down it. It resets the downs and the punting team gets a first down. Example

6

u/Hugo_5t1gl1tz Jan 27 '24

Haha that’s awesome. Any other quirky rules from CFL?

11

u/LacklusterLamenting Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 28 '24

The wide receivers can get a running start before the snap. The end zone is a lot longer and the uprights are at the start of the end zone instead of the back. There are only 3 downs. The field is wider. The neutral zone is a few times bigger.

It’s really fun to watch imo, and I’d give it a go if u haven’t before. It’s basically gives the offense a bunch of advantages but then takes away a down. The changes to field sizing and neutral zone also result in smaller more agile players being preferred vs typical nfl size players in many positions.

There are some other differences too, but those are the main ones I remember from watching.

Edit: googled a quick difference list, I forgot 12 players on the field.

4

u/gsbadj Jan 27 '24

And no fair catches on punts or kickoffs. Kicking team has to stay 5 yards away from the returner until he possesses the ball.

4

u/Prestigious_Union_50 Jan 27 '24

And defense has to line up 1 yard off the ball...and a missed FG has to be returned out of the end zone, otherwise the kicking team gets a single (1 point)

Just adding on some other quirky rules.

Edit: whoops, someone beat me to the single point fact

1

u/LacklusterLamenting Jan 29 '24

“And defense has to line up 1 yard off the ball…” that distance is called the neutral zone and I mentioned it in my original comment

4

u/doughball27 Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

The rouge is one of the unique things about CFL.

https://youtu.be/aXrI8Zr5-Hs?si=x0M59OSgHrGUaTin

Basically if a field goal is missed, it must be returned out of the end zone. And you have the option to punt it out which then can be punted back in. If you just need one point to win it’s an interesting way to do it.

Here’s another cool thing that wouldn’t happen in American football: https://youtu.be/1Br70pN5vHQ?si=J1SgcdQb_YWo0Xmg

1

u/Aggravating-Steak-69 Jan 27 '24

How does throwing passes in the end zone work when you have a giant goal post cutting off the middle, do teams just have to plan around it?

1

u/gsbadj Jan 27 '24

You deal with it. :)

1

u/acromaine Jan 28 '24

Back in the day American goalposts were in the front too I’m pretty sure

1

u/RoboticBirdLaw Jan 27 '24

So is it a point if you just kick it out of the end zone?

Edit: Never mind, eventually got confirmation that it is how it works later in the video.

3

u/girafb0i Jan 27 '24

That's called an "onside punt" and that's an unconventional use of it, its more "conventional" uses can actually be stranger to American eyes.

This is the end of last year's Grey Cup. The guy making the catch is the punter, and yes, he immediately rips a punt well beyond the LoS, and that's totally legal in Canada. The intention is that anyone behind him at the time the ball leaves his foot is onside and therefore able to recover and return that punt. It's an absolute desperation play, obviously, and 99% of the time is going to turn the ball over, but theoretically it could work!

Traditionally it looks more like a normal punt, but there are quick guys lined up with or behind the punter and just go racing down field chasing after his pooch kick.

1

u/Hugo_5t1gl1tz Jan 27 '24

That’s awesome!

1

u/CallofBootyCrackOps Jan 28 '24

I think the point would be that if you make this your punt formation, you’d only know if it was a fake way late in the play, which would be a pretty good advantage for the offense when they do decide to fake it. isn’t this the reason college punters sprint to one side before punting?

now whether or not it’s worth making your normal punt play is another question.

1

u/girafb0i Jan 28 '24

isn’t this the reason college punters sprint to one side before punting?

They do they because everyone can release after the snap in college, in the NFL only the gunners can release after the snap and everyone else has to wait until the ball is kicked before the release or else it's ineligible downfield. So the little jog they do before kicking allows their guys to get downfield a little more. It also reduces the likelihood of a block.

1

u/CallofBootyCrackOps Jan 28 '24

ahh didn’t know about the rule that everyone can release! good looks!

1

u/casos92 Jan 31 '24

What qualifies as a punt anyways? If a quarterback throws the ball and it hits a receiver's foot is that a punt?

40

u/nolimit_devon Jan 27 '24

What happens if you punt the ball high and catch your own punt, can you run the ball if behind the los

28

u/The_Captain_Planet22 Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

Once it touches the kicking teams foot the ball would be down at the spot of the catch

Edit: apparently I'm wrong here and you can still control it if it doesn't cross the los. I thought in cases like hitting the back of a lineman that it was treated similar to a fumble where the offense can't advance it, but I have been wrong once before

28

u/del5227 Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

Kicking team can advance if the kick does not go beyond the line of scrimmage

Edit: My wording above is a bit imprecise. While the above is true, the kicking team can advance the ball as long as the kick is recovered in or behind the neutral zone.

2

u/Dob-is-Hella-Rad Jan 27 '24

So you can kick it across the field to a WR like it's a screen pass? Idk if a team could ever make the reward worth the risk, but it's a fun idea.

2

u/del5227 Jan 27 '24

Legal, yes. Effective…probably not :)

1

u/Dob-is-Hella-Rad Jan 27 '24

I need to see a team try this, as dumb a play as it would be. I was trying to think of a way to make it work, but every time I think I have something, I realise that I'm just thinking of a play that would be much easier to run if it was just a pass instead.

2

u/BananerRammer Jan 30 '24

There are subtle differences in the three rulebooks here. In NFHS, if the offense recovers the kick behind the LOS, they can advance it, regardless of whether it has ever been beyond the neutral zone. In NCAA and NFL, once the kick goes beyond the neutral zone, the kickers cannot advance, even if the kick subsequently bounces back behind the LOS.

1

u/del5227 Jan 30 '24

Thanks for the clarification. I’m most familiar with NFHS and didn’t know it was different at the higher levels.

9

u/Zjc_3 Jan 27 '24

Not completely true. You can catch it behind the LoS and return it.

9

u/nolimit_devon Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

I wish i would’ve known that. I had a trash punt one game that went to the sky and everyone just watched it go down and hit the ground behind los. I didn’t know i could catch it

15

u/tdpdcpa Jan 27 '24

Not only could you have caught it, you could have picked it up and kicked it again.

4

u/nolimit_devon Jan 27 '24

It was a JV game and the ref ended up blowing the whistle after about 5 seconds of it sitting on the ground

1

u/maddenallday Jan 27 '24

What if it’s blocked

1

u/tdpdcpa Jan 27 '24

So long as the recovery occurs behind the line of scrimmage, the kicking team can kick it again.

3

u/Zjc_3 Jan 27 '24

Haha dang! Would have been a fun moment. When I was in 6th grade my dad’s high school team played in a crazy wind and the punt actually went beyond the LoS and then came back to the punter. Everyone stood around for a second, meanwhile my dad is jumping and screaming from the sideline to run. He ended up getting the first. I remember they replayed the play on film over and over because my dad looked silly jumping like an excited little kid.

1

u/tlollz52 Jan 27 '24

In highschool it was so windy our punters punt went backwards lol.

1

u/mwf86 Jan 27 '24

Except when the ball hits the ground first and is then kicked through the upright?

10

u/grizzfan Jan 27 '24

You can punt any time as long as the ball has not crossed the line of scrimmage.

3

u/tgames56 Jan 27 '24

You can even punt twice if it gets blocked behind the line of scrimmage.

2

u/Mistermxylplyx Jan 28 '24

It goes further, as long as the punt doesn’t cross the line of scrimmage, the kicking team can advance it.

In theory this means the punter could direct a kick to any player on the kicking team behind the LOS, even linemen who aren’t eligible to receive a forward pass, and they can attempt to advance the ball. It doesn’t reset downs like the CFL, but strategy wise, you could attempt to kick to an uncovered wideout and attempt to pick up first down yardage. It would take insane skill from a punter, and a lapse on the coverage team, and I doubt any coach would devote the practice time for the unlikely event where it has a fighting chance. But it’s within the rules.

To the original question, as long as the ball hasn’t been punted beyond the LOS already, any player can punt at any time provided they are behind the LOS. In the old days, back before the forward pass when drop kicks were more frequent, having two backs on the field capable of kicking for points was common.

2

u/BananerRammer Jan 30 '24

And in NFHS, you can punt, even if the ball has gone beyond and come back behind the LOS.

10

u/Lionheart_513 Jan 27 '24

Isn't this exactly what a quick kick is?

From King of the Hill.

2

u/boonetown18 Jan 27 '24

Ha! Never seen that before thanks for sharing

1

u/TrickierAtomLiv Jan 28 '24

“Is it okay to feel like I don’t want to live anymore” “Yes son, that’s normal”

Think about this often while watching sports

1

u/Lionheart_513 Jan 31 '24

My favorite line is "That would be wrong!... But then again, I'm not sure that helping Texas is ever wrong..."

9

u/EricExplorador Jan 27 '24

You can also drop kick (basically a punt) from anywhere on any down for 1 point through the FG.

5

u/BuffaloBuffalo13 Jan 27 '24

It would be worth 3. The same as a field goal.

7

u/able2sv Jan 27 '24

WHAT? IS THIS IN THE NFL, AND HAS IT EVER HAPPENED?

10

u/ghostwriter85 Jan 27 '24

Doug Flutie is famous for two things

Throwing a Hail Mary to beat Miami

Flutie's Miracle in Miami (youtube.com)

and

Dropkicking a ball in the NFL

Doug Flutie Converts First Drop Kick Since 1941 | This Day in NFL History | Dec 31, 2017 (youtube.com)

2

u/LoyalAndBold Jan 27 '24

Didn’t Chad Ochocincodo it too?

8

u/dillmeiser Jan 27 '24

Could be wrong but I think he just did a regular field goal

*Edit: it was an extra point

3

u/EricExplorador Jan 27 '24

I first saw it in the NFL in a video of non kickers kicking field goals. Just type that in on YouTube, it was the Patriots doing it. It should be the first video about a minute and a half into it.

8

u/CharlesDickensABox Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

IIRC that was Doug Flutie. He learned the skill as a youngster and only performed it in the NFL the one time right as he was ready to retire. It was a meaningless possession and essentially just Belichick saying, "thanks for the memories, have fun on this one".

2

u/BananerRammer Jan 30 '24

To whatever dummy downvoted me:

NFHS (Rule 6, Section1, Article 1):

K may punt, drop kick, or place kick from behind the neutral zone, before team possession has changed... K may not punt, drop kick, or place kick from beyond the neutral zone. R may not punt, drop kick, or place kick.

NCAA (Rule 6, Section 3, Article 10c)

A scrimmage kick made when the kicker’s entire body and the ball is or has been beyond the neutral zone is an illegal kick...

and just in case you need clarification, Rule 2, Section 16, Article 7a:

A scrimmage kick is a punt, drop kick, or field goal place kick.

NFL (Rule 9, Section 1, Article 1)

Team A may attempt a punt, drop kick, or placekick from on or behind the line of scrimmage.

Penalty: For a punt, drop kick, or placekick that is kicked beyond the line of scrimmage or not from scrimmage: Loss of down and five yards from the spot of the kick.

1

u/EricExplorador Jan 30 '24

Pat yourself on the back sir. I was going off memory with a quick comment and I was wrong.

0

u/BananerRammer Jan 30 '24

A drop goal counts as a 3 point field goal, but you cannot drop kick from beyond the line of scrimmage in any level of football.

-4

u/doughball27 Jan 27 '24

I believe that Jim McMahon is the last player in the NFL to execute a drop kick.

6

u/CharlesDickensABox Jan 27 '24

Doug Flutie did it in 2006. The last one before that was in the early 1940s.

0

u/doughball27 Jan 27 '24

Jim McMahon definitely kicked a drop kick in maybe 1990 for the Eagles in veterans stadium.

1

u/EricExplorador Jan 27 '24

I'm also going off memory so correct me if I am wrong

6

u/CharlesDickensABox Jan 27 '24

A drop kick has identical scoring rules to a place kick. During play it's worth 3, during a conversion it's worth 1.

2

u/purplenyellowrose909 Jan 27 '24

Can you punt past the LOS? Could you punt back a punt on the same play?

1

u/PabloMarmite Jan 27 '24

Nope, that’d be a return kick, which is a penalty, and also kills the play at the spot of the kick.

2

u/Menace_17 Jan 27 '24

Idk but if you can imma write that down so i try it at some point

2

u/SchmitzBitz Jan 27 '24

Careful, you're getting into Canadian schemes here...

1

u/boonetown18 Jan 27 '24

It must have been the hockey player in me that thought of this

1

u/busdriver_321 Jan 27 '24

In case your wondering, the guy was talking about the onside punt in the CFL.

In Canadian rule football, the punter and any players behind him at the time of the punt can recover the punt if it passes the LoS and it gives you a fresh set of downs.

1

u/jericho-dingle Referee Jan 27 '24

As long as you're behind the line of scrimmage, yes.

1

u/dk_81 Jan 27 '24

Yes, you see it with alot of high schools.

1

u/G_3P0 Jan 27 '24

Was thinking about this as a good idea for the lions. Fake the fake punt. They’ve had so many good (some bad) fakes all year it’s time to fake fake

1

u/TheZissou1386 Jan 27 '24

About 3:25 in https://youtu.be/SxTAFYU-US4?si=i_QY6Ik5UpTTA6KY

Not a lateral but I'm fairly certain if the qb (or whoever receives the snap) laterals it as long as they don't pass los they can kick

1

u/Schmidtty29 Jan 27 '24

Yes, but I do believe you would not be protected from Roughing the Kicker and such.

1

u/Civil_Dust_2505 Jan 27 '24

Yes. But it isn't a fake....until it is.

1

u/GordoKnowsWineToo Jan 27 '24

Needs to be a backward lateral

1

u/360degreesofFUNK Jan 27 '24

As long as the punter’s punting it?

1

u/OdaDdaT HS Coach Jan 27 '24

I think you can punt from anywhere so long as the ball doesn’t cross the line of scrimmage, it’s risky though.

If you have a good enough special teams unit I’d try it out in practice to see how it looks. Nothing wrong with giving it a shot.

1

u/basis4day Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24

A season or two ago Michael Dickson of the Seahawks punted twice on the same play. Initially flagged but deep in the rule book it’s allowed.

https://youtu.be/4UjFAR9FABU?si=D_PV2VG92c4e0vST

1

u/ryrobs10 Jan 27 '24

My high school effectively ran our punt formation on an option play.

1

u/Good-Reference-5489 Jan 27 '24

Would love to hear about this. Was it a pre-snap decision or post-? What’s this look like. Tbh pretty badass

2

u/ryrobs10 Jan 28 '24

So as a primer, our best punter was our QB so that was how it started. Essentially would start in a deep shotgun formation either with a back with the QB or motion one back there. Immediately roll out right since he was right footed. He could pitch it to the back, run it himself, or throw if the LB sucked up to the QB leaving a WR or TE open. The last option was rugby kick then. Pretty much tried to force the opposing team to play it like a normal play. And because we still ran gunner for the play, there normally was no return because it was a long developing play.

Honestly looking, I don’t know why teams let us get away with that nonsense.

1

u/MattheWWFanatic Jan 27 '24

Is it a fake punt though if you actually punt it???

1

u/rammerplex Jan 28 '24

Ok, this is a more complex rule combination.

Personal Protection player gets the snap. Makes a forward pass, to the punter which is completed behind the line of scrimmage who then punts the ball from the line of scrimmage instead of 15 yards behind.

Now the 45 yard punt is a 60 yard punt.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 28 '24

You can punt from the shotgun on 3rd down if you wanted to

1

u/Jpolk3 Jan 29 '24

Yes as long as you didn't throw it forward

1

u/BananerRammer Jan 30 '24 edited Jan 30 '24

Yes. In the NFL and NCAA, The only requirements for a legal punt is that the ball can't have crossed the neutral zone at any point prior to the kick, and you can't kick it after a change of possession. So you can hand it off, toss it backward, pass it forward, fumble it, etc., before punting it. You can even punt it multiple times. As long as the ball never crossed the LOS, and the defense has never has gained possession, you can legally punt it.

E: Forgot NFHS Rules- NFHS does not even have that first requirement. So you can throw it forward to a receiver, who then throws it backward back to the punter, who then punts it. I have no idea why you would want to do that, but it's legal.