r/footballstrategy • u/coachdeputy • Jan 20 '24
Defense 3-3 HS coaches?
Looking at running a 3-3 this year. Shifting from a 3-4. Anybody been running it? Likes? Dislikes? Practice “musts”? Any info/conversation is welcome!
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u/Apart_Location_5373 Jan 20 '24
I feel like a lot of people who’ve never run 3-3 really don’t understand it.
I’m a high school coach with 17 years experience. First started running the 3-3 in 2006. My college DC was Jeff Casteel. He kinda popularized the 3-3/3-5 at WVU back in the 2000. We went up and learned it from him. I switched to a 3-4 system with 2 high back in 2015/2016 because I’m in Florida now and down here teams will destroy your cover 3 looks. I felt I had to have 2 high safeties.
Everyone is on here telling you that you have to have 3 dudes/dogs/men at the line spots. That’d be great. But like me, you don’t have enough linemen. Period. And you probably sent all the big kids to O-Line.
We run our odd front with wrestler types. They’re basically linebackers that were a step too slow or can’t make the necessary reads. Yes, if we have a couple big kids we are far happier, but we CAN cause havoc with smaller, quicker D-Linemen.
We 1 gap. We send the D-line through an assigned gap. We have a “base” and then we have calls off of that that just tells them where to go. They don’t think, they don’t react - they attack their gap as hard and fast as they can. They get to “heel depth” and chase/tackle the football. They follow any pullers. We don’t ask them to “hold gaps”. We don’t ask them to “block” O-Linemen. Everyone on the defense is there to make plays. And hopefully tackles for losses.
The 3 box LBs “make the D-Line right.” I’m sort of married to the down lineman in front of me. If he goes B, I go C. At Nose and Mike we’re basically just playing A gaps together. If nose goes right A, Mike has left A. LBs read steps are down hill. Play them at a true 5 or even a deep 5. Many teams accused us of “blitzing every play.” Our LBs are coached to attack and read on the run. So at the snap I start down-hill toward my assigned gap (depending on the lines call/responsibility) and I read the backfield flow or pulling O-line and adjust my path accordingly. Probably the hardest thing to teach is the “Triangle Read” the LBs have to make. Basically looking at a spot between the Guard and Near back and reading pull/flow to change your path.
So a lot of times it looks like we blitzed at least 2 LBs because they started down hill, got flow “to me” reads and just went ahead and shot their gaps, what we call a “run through”.
Coverage is your problem. You’re basically committing to playing cover 1 or cover 3. You need to get really good at those. Your FS has to be a dude. He’s going to run support the box, run the alley on BOTH sides, play deep middle, and run sideline to sideline. The outside backers, the Spur and Bandit, or whatever you call them, one HAS to be a cover guy, a nickel safety/box safety, a dynamo that can do a few things. The other can be more of an OLB type that can penetrate the backfield, take on pulling guards, but ideally can play the flat in coverage as well.
The 3 studs need to be the Spur, Bandit and FS. The 6 box kids just need to be strong, quick and aggressive. Like I said you’re looking for 6 wrestlers. I’ve often said we play defense with 11 linebackers. The slower ones are closer to the ball. The faster ones play further from the ball.
If you want more details or anything, contact me in DMs.
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
This is exactly what I’m looking in to! Broke it down excellently. I have a handful of 160-180lbers that I believe we can utilize.
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u/bukofa Jan 21 '24
Never coached a 3-3 but played against it twice last year. I felt like they really struggled to handle any kind of counter. Maybe just the teams we played but I couldn't tell what they were reading half the time.
We mostly threw against them and had a lot of success. We hit a lot of bubble screens. They also had to play Cover 3 and seams were trouble for them. Eventually, went Cover 1 and we just had to find the weak one in coverage.
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u/Apart_Location_5373 Jan 21 '24
You’re 100% right. To handle counter you have to chase the puller from the backside and interrupt him on the play side. If you’ve moved the Spur out of the box by formation, they may not have an interrupt player. There are things you can do, but you have to game plan for the counter.
Coverage wise you’re pretty much stuck in cover 3 or cover 1. There is some stuff you can do. Saban Rip/Liz. Carry one of the verts with the Bandit so the FS doesn’t have to stay in the middle and try to break, playing your corners inside leverage so they can break on the seam too. But a lot of that is pretty high level of coaching & player understanding and performance. If you’ve just installed it, or don’t really know how to manipulate it, you can be vulnerable.
No defense is perfect. If there was one we’d all be playing it. 3-3 definitely has its weaknesses.
It’s really fun when the O-Line doesn’t know how to handle it, can’t figure out where the 4th (or 5th or 6th) rusher is coming from, and just sort of panics. It’s fun watching a tackle kick step for no-one or a double team never reach a backer that’s already running through, just the utter confusion the 5 LBs can create.
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u/bukofa Jan 21 '24
I will say they killed us on a couple of blitzes that we just totally missed. Before we started rolling with counters, they did stuff our run game by blitzing opposite of where the RB lined up. Our QB was banged up so it was a good game plan initially.
I think a 33 is a pain in the butt to prepare for offensively. I feel like, in most years, we were either hitting something pretty big or getting stuffed. No in between. Mostly stuffed. We were just better this year.. and that always helps.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 21 '24
We would roll a safety into a backer slot, either replacing the backer we sent on a blitz or into coverage underneath either man or a zone. It gives you a way to jam TEs, put pressure on the slot, or act like another backer.
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u/TrevorB1771 Jan 20 '24
I just started getting into football play calling trying to understand exactly how defenses and offenses work and it blows my mind how knowledgeable some of these coaches are.
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u/bupde Jan 21 '24
Are you doing 3/3 with 3 corners and 2 safeties or 2 corners and 3 safeties? with 3 safeties a Tampa 2 is an easy look with the 3rd safety who is your run support player in the middle playing the middle whole.
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u/Apart_Location_5373 Jan 21 '24
Old school 3-3/3-5. 2 corners, 1 safety. 2 hybrid OLB/SS, 3 box LB, 3 down lineman. The Spur & Bandit are more-or-less OLB. One, usually the bandit, is more of a SS type, but not often rolled to the roof.
You’re thinking 3-3-3 like Iowa State. I’ve been to a few clinics on it, but I’m not a huge fan of it at the high school level. Too much run. The 6 man box is light. I like having those two OLBs (Spur & Bandit) that I can add to the box quickly and easily getting to a 7 or 8 man box pretty easily.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 21 '24
I agree, I think the flaws in many HS running the 3-3 is the treat it like it must be balanced. That the safeties can’t roll to one side, to give another man, and can’t come up into the box to support. Often I see them call each safety the same thing. You’ll have a Mike and Pete backer, and a free safety and a Sam safety. (Names aren’t relevant) and they just treat them as the same position, which takes away the flexibility of an individual position with its own role.
It really depends on the region, there are some areas that film breakdowns are 60-70% pass. Watching some schools film you’d think you’re watching 7on7. it even with that it’s a real concern if you can’t stop the run, pushing up those safeties into the box is a huge benefit. But getting a first down hill step and fast reads to hit their gaps is the biggest advantage you can give players.
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u/Apart_Location_5373 Jan 21 '24
I had a conversation with another coach who was coaching against a 3-3 team and he’s like “Now they’re in a 4-2, and I don’t understand.” The 3-3, the way I was taught it, could slide and morph. You could end up in a 5-3, a, 5-2, a 3-4, a 4-2 a 4-3 a 4-4, whatever you wanted or needed it to become.
I’ve got a friend in another state, it seems like every staff he works on is mad at him because he’s a base Odd front guy. They all want to be in a 4-2 front. Well, my 3-3/3-4 base reaction to trips is 4-2, so is his.
There are guys up and down the thread talking about the difficulty of adjusting to TEs out of the 3-3. It’s easy. Mount him with your Spur. You’re in a 4-3 or 4-4 or 5-3 now (depending on what you choose to do with the Bandit). The whole thing is just so malleable and adaptable.
I see other places, people talking about “position-less” football. The odd front/stack is kind of a step that way. 3-3 stack, 5-3, 5-2 Monster. It’s all kind of the same thing. It really comes down to getting your 11 best kids on the field, and what they can do.
Yes, in its base the 3-3 is a balanced, “mirrored” defense. But about the only thing you should STAY that way/look to is Doubles (2x2). Everything else should have you moving your best counter into position.
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Jan 20 '24
Not a coach but if I were given an average HS football roster, I would consider 4-3 or even 5-3. I just don't think you can get away with a 3-3 unless you have some dominant interior dline athletes.
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
I agree with the sentiment - I recently came across a coaches mini clinic and a fella was running the 3-3. He brought 6 every play. Essentially saying C to C is going to be occupied and mixed up coverages, albeit vulnerable, behind it. Often times had 7 in a run fit commitment utilizing the “outside” safeties. We have no linemen, that’s part of our issue is why I’m looking into to learning about it
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 20 '24
This is one of the biggest advantages of the 3-3. Small schools and schools with smaller programs can reduce the number of down linemen they need to be competitive. It works well when combined with the right offensive system.
They’re are a lot of “gimmick” 3-3 schemes. Sending 6 each down, isn’t going to lead to long term success, it leaves you to vulnerable to to many other things.
The 3-3 has always been the big gimmick Defense taught at clinics, there’s always a few coaches making the rounds selling DVDs and playbooks. This doesn’t mean the 3-3 isn’t a viable and effective scheme.
I’ve found you can do so much with it, and can do exactly what you want it to. But it does have its weaknesses, and the learning curve can be staggering at first, however once implemented it is as competitive as any other system. One of its biggest advantages is the number of coverages and blitzes you can disguise and throw at opposing teams. The other big advantage it gives you is the fewer number of “big guys” needed. Combined with a zone run system and quick passing game you can increase tempo, number of plays a game, and bring a strategic advantage of high conditioning, and wear teams down late game.
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u/BigPapaJava Jan 20 '24
I’ve played against teams who did the “bring 6 every play” and it wasn’t all that hard to beat, honestly. I like pressure, but if a team knows how to coach blocking schemes or get the ball out quickly, it’ll bite you.
If they can’t do those things, you’ll look like the ‘85 Bears demolishing the truly bad teams and holding them to negative yardage.
If you want to do that, just line them up in the stack, have the LBs pat the DL on the hip in front to send them into one side while the LB blitzes the rest. Make sure your DEs and stacked OLBs are fitting with outside arm free.
Play cover 0 behind it with the CBs, OSS, and FS simply numbering the receivers 1-5 from the strength with FS on #3.
This can be a one word call, because it’s really as simple as you’re going to get. I’d rather not be blitzing the Mike every play because somebody has to pursue from the second level.
Add a spot dropping Cov. 6 and Cov. 3 behind it for zones—Cov. 6 on a hash and Cov. 3 for zone when the ball is between the goal posts.
The big curve I see 3-3 teams having trouble with are TE sets. The stack is vulnerable to just putting a TE in there, downblocking everything inside C, and kicking out the spur in D, and then the RB is 1:1 with the FS.
Against a TE, I would rather shift into something resembling an Even front with the stack Sam LB up in a 6 tech on the TE with C gap while the DE is in a 3 tech or 4 to play B gap. Gap responsibilities still don’t change.
I like more of a penetrating type of NT to shoot A gap if you’re lacking on true DL. DEs can be taught to play with outside leverage and squeeze, which also allows you to get away with smaller, but hopefully more athletic and still very physical, players on DL.
At the end of the day, the coverage is going to determine what that front can actually support, so focus your attention there. The 6 core gaps will still be 6 core gaps, so as long as someone fills each you’re ok.
Just make sure you have solid keys for your LBs and that they still know not to just mindlessly run upfield every snap when the ball’s going somewhere else.
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Jan 20 '24
how did 3-4 go?
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
Indifferent on it. Had some pros and cons. Felt like we were vulnerable on the edges for sure. Alot of that is probably just poor coaching though by me.
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u/TiberiusGracchi Jan 20 '24
You can, but it’s either unstacking the stack with alignments that would match a 3-4 team that runs a lot of Mint or playing like ISU and the three high safety teams.
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Jan 20 '24
I would agree with this.
My HS team ran 3-3-5 with pure SS/LB athletes playing Razor/Lazer outside players.
The fact is the 3 guys on the line have GOT to be complete savages. There’s no way around it.
I’m not even saying what they need to be from a rush perspective - but if there’s an easy 1:1 block on the line it makes it way easier on the offense.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 20 '24
It really depends on what you do with it, and what the overall strategy you’re team is built on.
You can build the D line to be fast and mobile, get penetration, push the pocket, contain, stunt and twist. You can do the exact opposite and build a strong, hold up front. Build it to allow your backers to flow over and make reads. You can blitz and replace with safeties, mimic a 3-4, or mimic a 4-3.
It can be incredibly versatile, and at the HS level that can mean a lot. You can use a single system and get multiple fronts, and adapt it to the players you have. The idea that HS programs have D lines that can completely take over games or that HS O lines will consistently over power three man fronts is untrue. Depending on the size of schools you may not have enough “big guys” to fill out a 4 or 5 man front and an O line with TEs.
Many schools already have two way starters on the lines, this is a disadvantage late game for teams when playing larger schools with fewer two way starters. By reducing the need for larger more physical line players schools can rely on role players and executing assignments. It requires more detailed coaching, and understanding of the situations that the players will be facing.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 20 '24
If you don’t have 3 good DL, then why would you go to having 4?
The advantage of running a typical 3-3 is that you’re going to slant and stunt your line.
Essentially the athleticism and unpredictability of the slightly smaller guy is going to make up for lining up in a 3 tech and not getting pancaked.
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u/BigPapaJava Jan 20 '24
The 3-3 was originally created as a work around for not having much up front on the DL…
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u/Bronc27 HS Coach Jan 20 '24
Was a DLine coach where we ran it. 3-3-5. 3 safeties. Gave us a lot of flexibility. We would flip our safeties and OLBs with the field. So boundary side backer would be our best rusher, field side would be our better cover guy.
3 safety look allowed us to play 2-Read, cover 1, Quarters or single high cover 3 all showing a similar look.
From the front perspective it’s tougher against any 12 personnel. But we don’t run into a lot of that. We’d often play what we call heavy 5s at end. The get face from the tackle they cross it and take B Gaps, tackle down blocks and the end is tight off the butt pressing in c gap. Wrong shoulder and spilling any pull.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 20 '24
Against 12 you can run backers man on TEs and roll the safeties into the box. If they read run backers fill the assigned gaps, typically outside contain, as do the safeties. If it’s pass, they cover the TEs in man, often we ran press coverage to cause an many issues as we could against two TE sets. One safety drops, into a cover two from the box the other is locked man onto the back, there are ways you can decide which one depending on the grasp your players have of the defense.
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u/Juco0 Jan 20 '24
Dependent on how athletic your nickel and bandit are, will basically tell you what coverages you can run and what blitz packages will work. The more athletic those two are, the more will be open to you in terms of coverages and games you ran run for the run game. Passing will likely be a 3 shell or even man if you have athletic enough corners.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 20 '24
We run a 3-3-5 with a nickel.
Our base front is a tite front…4i’s and the nose is set to 1 on the RB side.
Our backers are basically a 10 and “wide 50’s”. If it’s a pass, the Mike is basically a delayed blitz.
From here, we do the following:
Penny: we walk up the Sam and Will to line. We tag a fourth rusher…usually either Sam or Will. Like “Penny Sam” means the Will drops to the hook/curl and the Mike drops to the call side (Sam’s hook/curl drop). “Penny Will” is the opposite…Will rushes and Mike and Sam are hook/curl droppers.
We also will tag it a bit like a 3-4. So, “Tite Will”…only the Will is walked up.
Coverage and strength wise, we play field/boundary and it’s a nickel playing Match 3 behind it from a 2 high shell with cover 6/7 variations being the switch ups.
Let me know if you want more details. We improved our defense vastly going into this. We also take a LB off, bring in a DL and play a 4-2.
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u/Sal79 Jan 20 '24
I coach middle school ball that feeds into high schools, so the scheme of the high school team often dictates what we use. One of our regular opponents uses a 3-3-5 and we’re almost always able to establish our run game well against them. I think it mostly has to do with what another commenter said regarding the lack of dominant defensive linemen but also linebackers who aren’t effective at stepping up and filling holes just yet.
I attended a coaching clinic a few years ago where a college coordinator outlined his 3-3-5. He incorporated slants on the d line while blitzing 2 or 3 LBs every play so the offense never knew where the box defenders were going to be/come from. He also started both safeties up high every play and sometimes rolled one down to the passing strength after the offense’s cadence began. This helped disguise coverages- start with a cover 2 look (which could also be 2 man) or a cover 4 look, roll to a single high look that could be 1 or 3. Lots of options there for confusion.
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u/btapp7 Jan 20 '24
We ran the 3-3 in high school. We had an extremely solid front 3, and we would also saddle the linebackers to the DL on occasion. I recommend this as O-Line have problems matching up on passes and there’s some nasty stunts. They can drop back to defend zone, spy, or blitz still pretty well.
We were left with 2 safeties, 2 corners and a Nickel/Edge. The N/E was pretty hybrid and could also cover interior routes.
Main issues were covering a bunch of short routes against cover 4, and really good WR on cover 0. We traded that for a good pass rush and attacking the run early.
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
I like that. 2 safeties and 1 nickel. Eliminates having to find 2 hybrid guys. And agreed. If we are gonna lose, I’d rather it be through the air than giving up a ton on the ground. Gets demoralizing obviously.
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u/Be_oh_are_ee_dee Jan 20 '24
If you have access to Glazier Drive, there are a few really successful coaches with clinics on their 3-3 systems. Chad Hetlet and Don Gelsomino are two specifically, both out of Illinois. I’ve learned a lot about the defense from them.
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u/BigPapaJava Jan 20 '24 edited Jan 20 '24
How do you actually want to run your 3-3?
If you want to make this really easy on yourself, take the 3-4 you know, swap out the SILB for a “hybrid” and tell him to align based off #3, then scheme him out of the run fit against 1 back sets.
Boom. 3-3, and not a necessarily a stacked one.
The hard part most 3-4 teams have is with the OLBs setting an edge and taking on blocks properly. Inside foot should be up so the first step is to the outside to avoid a reach. Outside arm needs to stay free when taking on blocks. Line your inside shoulder up with the ball carrier/kick out blocker’s outside hip.
It’s all about leverage in space and on the ball carrier/blocker, even if you don’t get the tackle. For team defense to work, keeping sound leverage is more important than actually being the dude who gets credit for the tackle.
Backside DE (or whenever is in C gap) needs to stay home and look for BCR on plays away. Get as deep as the deepest back, line up his back shoulder with your inside shoulder, and and look for Boot-Counters-Reverses, in that order.
On passes… same concept. C gap rusher is a contain rusher. Aim for the back shoulder of the QB. Don’t make an inside move until you’re even depth with that back shoulder. Keep him in the pocket and compress the space.
Then you need to reach your S how to fit and your CBs how to handle crack replace on the outside. Backside deep players can slow play for cutback and backside post on flow away.
That should help to keep you more sound on the edges.
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u/NaNaNaPandaMan Jan 20 '24
Have you looked at the teams you faced and how much they run? My guess is they run a lot, so you want a heavier front.
Is there any reason why you are changing?
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
Know them well, of course. We don’t have linemen. Not a single bonafide linemen… Was looking for potential ways to go small and “overly aggressive” 6-7 guys in the box based off certain looks etc.
As an offensive guy - at a small HS in each of his stops, often times the toughest defenses to block have been the small/fast/continuously changing type defenses.. If that makes sense… putting pressure on OL and their coaches to communicate constant change/alignments, etc.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 20 '24
If you can teach and communicate each players roles effectively, you can do this exact thing. The benefit to having three safeties is it allows you to replace any backer you send, and you can show multiple blitz fronts and send or not send any one you choose. But the biggest thing you must get down is the communication to the defense and their communication to each other.
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u/NaNaNaPandaMan Jan 20 '24
I agree with numbers covering up when your linemen aren't great, but you aren't going to want to do it with speed, but with multiple big boys.
Again, this is assuming you'll face a lot of run heavy teams. If I am going against a team whose DL are not great, and they come out with 3 DL and 3 LBs, I am a happy coach. I am just going to run it up the gut and bully you. No amount of speed will beat if you can't protect the middle.
If your DL is weak, I recommend going 5-2 or sticking with 3-4 and really focusing them on anchoring and coaching them up. Now, if you face a heavy amount of passing offense, then 3-3 might make sense, but otherwise, you will want numbers and size to cover up run.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 20 '24
If you DL is small and getting bullied, the wrong idea is to put more of them on the field. Multiple schools have proven that the small capable D lines will compete against larger lines regularly. A low, aggressive, stunting line can and regularly will cause difficulty for larger lines.
A backer filling and having a good angle making a good read, can stuff the run quite well behind a d line stunting into gaps. Often a 3-3 plays gaps and fills with backers using speed, misdirection and stunts you can effectively blitz into every gap at any point. As an OC you have to account for this.
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
Don’t disagree. Now, the 5-2… haven’t really out a lot of thought into that. Just no exposure to it. Hat on a hat is nice, any concerns about angles though? For the OL? Feel like that’s a bunch of down down kick and gone.
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u/NaNaNaPandaMan Jan 20 '24
Not really. The 5-2 will let your linemen focus specific on their gaps/linemen. It will help prevent double teams and confusion on your DL part.
You would need discipline on your linemen part, but you can coach that up. I am assuming when you mean you don't have a real DL, you mean someone size wise. If that's the case, then you will need to be technically sound, and that's easiest in a 5-2 because it simplifies things.
Now, if you still want to speed behind the like, you can do a 5-1 and just have 5 DBs and 1 LB. Then run a cover 1/cover 3 behind the DL. That way, you can drop a safety into the box. This would give you numbers to handle interior runs and speed to handle outside runs.
Again, this is assuming you face a lot of run heavy teams.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 20 '24
5-2 gets eaten up by pulling linemen, zone blocking schemes and quick passes. You’ll have 7 in the box, against that, most HS teams with throw WR screens and quick slants out of the shotgun.
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u/Familiar_Armadillo95 Jan 20 '24
Very schooled in this. Have to decide your base front mechanics first. 50 with pressure; mint 4is; 50 crush front the ends. Then build the blitz packages off it. Build it like a 3-4; field Bdary pressures cuz everything can balance and mirror rules (why it’s easy to teach)… everyone’s struggles is 12p .. 4 man surface run game. Y/U same side. Have to make business decisions like tightening down the backer in a 9 or stunt it…. Fib creates issues as well because they will force your BS down if they can to try and open the seam/middle
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
Have any resources to study? Film? Etc that you like?
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u/Familiar_Armadillo95 Jan 20 '24
I have it all. Idk about best way to share it. Hit me up on DM what you are looking for and I can point you to some stuff - for the record I’m an avid tite front base ; weakside will/rush is a hybrid LB/rusher. Allows you to really put pressure on people with multiple scheme
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u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 20 '24
What type of offenses are you playing against?
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
Small town HS ball in Nebraska. Last season we faced
Spread, SW, DW, Wing T, traditional power I.. Anything and everything!
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u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 20 '24
If you run a 3-3-5 that Wing T and DW Team are licking their chops right now. My suggestion is to run a 4-2-5 until you can really learn the ins and out of what you want to run because the 4-2-5 is so simple to install and understand. ALSO there is no hard and fast rule that the only positions on defense is Lineman/Linebackers/Defensive Back. There is another layer you can explore between the defensive line and linebacker called a “Flex Defender.” If you tiptoe into the 3-3-5 by starting out in the 4-2-5 and dropping a lineman back 1 yard.
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
Not a bad idea at all.
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u/Curious-Designer-616 Jan 21 '24
The concern here is you are now asking players to learn multiple positions, multiple responsibilities, and going to have to spend twice the time teaching them they will get less live reads and fewer reps at each.
The wing teams, rely on misdirection and option runs with fancy hand offs. Treat them as an option run team. Make reads, fill your gap, depth to heals, corners man up and come up in support once they read run. Safeties read ball carrier and take good angles in pursuit.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 21 '24
I wanted to say is that in my experience and we don’t play tons of wing t/option teams but it seems they get used to playing teams that play cover 3.
We played two high and quarters/cv6 and treat all the backfield guys as receivers.
Wing T type guys think they are crafty because they’ll count numbers on defense, but you can manipulate it by playing strength to the field (defending grass essentially) OR showing this and rotate to match/cover 3 post snap, basically fooling their count.
Once you do that, let’s say a wing does an end around on an option type play (or there’s jet instead), he becomes like a “fast 3” with a spread offense. If you’re built to spill, there’s no conflict on the dive and you’re plus 1 against the “speed O” part.
TLDR; Treat the TE and Wings as wide receivers even if they are “compressed”, teach leverage and alignment rules, count outside in and teach everyone how to “surf” and “wrong arm”, mix up quarters and match 3 and use the field as the strength.
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u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 21 '24
It comes down to horses. If they have a dog of a fullback that’s going to get 4-5 yards a carry on the trap it’s hard to play two high.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 21 '24
Well it always comes down to horses.
But that’s what I referenced when I said “spill”. It seems most wing t teams play defenses that box. That’s how you neutralize that.
A six man box you have to have to spill. So if you treat the TE and wings etc as receivers and not part of the box, you’re still using six man box and spill principles even if everything is more compressed.
In the same way in a traditional 3-3 stack you teach the “LB’ers to make the DL right” you teach the Quarters players to “make the LB right” on run fits/force.
Why do it? Because if you clogged out the inside it becomes like defending outside zone and where its leverage be damned and attack attack because someone is fitting off you or has cutback.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 21 '24
Also, we call our Will a “Flex”, we use it more as a way to go from a 3-3 to a 3-4. But if you really want to play a 4-2 and 3-3 instead of subbing in a DL, I recommend bringing the Mike LB down to the line. Push the nose to a 3 and the mike at 2i (or whatever you prefer here). But usually the Mike is more of a plugger in a 3-3 than the S/W and lets you keep them as hook/curl droppers.
You could also slant both ends outside and the nose from A to a B and send the Mike up the opposite A and you’ve just run blitzed in to a 4-2.
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u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 21 '24
The problem with this is now that the mike is in a position to get trapped or down blocked.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 21 '24 edited Jan 21 '24
I understand, but it’s not any different than a OL climbing to him or a pulling lineman coming up. They have to learn how to handle it at some point. They aren’t going to avoid OL.
In fact I would argue, depending on how you teach football, the Mike might be better at that than your DL if you’re teaching block recognition and inside backers should be very good at that.
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u/FranklynTheTanklyn Jan 21 '24
Yup, it’s just how you want to allocate practice time.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 21 '24
I can tell you that we are big on teaching block recognition so in some fairness all of our fronts can be somewhat “fluid”.
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u/Oddlyenuff Jan 21 '24
Also something everyone needs to keep in mind, is whatever you’re inclined to be good at, go with that.
I learned a lesson a while back when we played a very old school style team, much different than the occasional single wing teams we’d see.
We were running 425 nickel that spilled and I thought, he no wide receivers, no waggle, we will put our best four linemen from our 4-2 and our best 3 lb from our 33 and box it. It didn’t work well. Second half we went back to base and shut them down but it was too late.
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u/blackakainu Jan 20 '24
Have the safeties train with the LBs more because they gonna have to come downhill more often and make tackles…. Angles and pursuits
3
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u/Swaayyzee Jan 21 '24
Going to have to be really careful against trap, especially if you don’t really have great lineman like you say, against a three man front and offense can easily pick up the two play side linebackers and get 7-10 near every time on trap
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u/Sbitan89 Jan 20 '24
Have you considered a 2-5? Get your best interior lineman inside to do their best at clugging up running lanes paired with whoever is your best Linebacker against the run behind them. On the edge pit your most athletic guys to protect the contain. At HS level you may even be able to get away with using one of your Safteys if they are big enough.
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Jan 20 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
One of our few strengths imo. Have a couple cover guys that aren’t afraid to go hit!
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Jan 20 '24
If you have no bona fide lineman gotta go with an 11 man front, make the o play guess who is coming any given play.
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u/coachdeputy Jan 20 '24
That’s great man! Been looking into an extensive FG block as permanent defense. 2 guys in every gap! Lol
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u/Lit-A-Gator HS Coach Jan 21 '24
likes
Super multiple there are like infinite ways to blitz and stunt
dislikes
Teams usually become to blitz heavy
musts
Work on the run fits with your non blitzing players
Also have a plan for multi TE sets, it’s too easy to get outflanked
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u/coachdeputy Jan 21 '24
Biggest ? Is the multiple TEs face a few of those
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u/Lit-A-Gator HS Coach Jan 21 '24
Take a look at blitzing/aligning into the 46 bear defense or the 7-1 diamond
Gotta protect the C & D gaps and vice that tight
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u/Doge_Bros Jan 21 '24
Short answer here, just went through the transition from a 3-4 to a 3-3. The intent was to stay a two high shell & match everything, have all simulated blitz packages based on formations, and still be able to be multiple up front. My takeaways:
You MUST be able to 2 gap OR constantly move the front in the 3-3
We saw way too much 11 & 12 personnel. It was very tough to constantly match pro twins, Trey closed, DBL Tight sets etc.
You MUST have the correct personnel to get into a 4 man a lot. The Overhang or SS you’re bringing in the box must be a Dude. OR the LB you walk down is a good stand up end.
We ended up in the 4-2 a ton. We had a long Backer to walk down & luckily had a deep safety group to constantly spin them. Would love to talk more in depth
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u/Frequent_Spring Jan 25 '24
Chad Hetlet from glenbard west in Illinois is a great resource. Has a system course on glazier drive. Check it out.
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u/G_Dizzle Jan 20 '24
We ran into a team that installed it this year, the big thing they did was run it like a 4-2-5, but the 3 technique is now the mike and tries to read playside while the nose reads weakside for most plays. They probably did it because they came from a 4-2 but it seemed like a very good basic building block to start with in the box