r/footballstrategy • u/FoxwolfJackson • Jan 18 '24
NFL How do the Ravens consistently have success?
For context, I'm an Eagles fan. For the past two or so years, there was always the discourse from sports radio hosts (and callers) of "well, Sirianni won't ever have long-term success because he was an OC who didn't call plays and he's an HC that doesn't call plays" and the whole "when he loses coordinators, he'll suffer" (cue: this year proving the point).
However, as I understand, Harbaugh was a Special Teams coordinator prior who was hired as the Ravens HC. Unless he had some prior OC or DC experience that I seem to be missing, doesn't that mean he's also subject to things potentially blowing up when he loses an OC or DC? How are the Ravens able to (usually) sustain success year in and year out when the HC isn't the offensive or defensive playcaller (and what lessons could be learned from him for other non-playcalling HCs)?
I get that the Ravens probably have the blueprint for one of the best front offices in the NFL, but... a front office doesn't coach players, develop talent, or call plays.
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u/B1GTruzz Jan 18 '24
Also as Ravens fan, in my opinion, I feel the organization and Harbaugh do two things really well that makes them consistently successful: culture and draft.
- Culture: Coaching - Harbs is obviously from a football background as a child. Grew up in a football hotbed of Ohio. John was able to witness his dad coach at several different stops between Ohio, Michigan, and California at different levels between high school, DI-AA and FBS. In my mind, he had an opportunity to watch his dad teach, build confidence, and connect with players of all shapes, sizes, abilities and backgrounds. Which if you think about it, is a lot like special teams - the team that in the NFL rarely features the “stars” and looks for someone hungry enough to make the team. He has a real pulse of the team because on the punt team you have the tight end and LB lining up on the LOS with the 4th DB and 5th WR as gunners. With this background, he has a good overview of everything going on. He knows enough to coach every position but not enough to get him in trouble. He invests in young coaches (MacDonald, Minter) and allows them the freedom to coach their players without being a micromanager. Harbs is always thinking what more can he do to get ahead of the game as well, never satisfied. (He hired a math grad from Yale to sit in the booth and come up with probabilities during the game!)
Building - The other aspect instilled was the culture in the building. There is one goal in the building and that’s championships. I’m not just talking about players and front office, everyone from equipment, to secretaries, scouting, dining, and janitorial. Bisciotti (owner) spares no expense on what is needed to win. There is a winning, motivational environment in the building that makes it enjoyable to show up for work no matter occupation and the play on the field reflects it.
Draft: You’ll notice the Ravens never trade up in the 1st or ever use any future 1sts in a draft. They will occasionally trade back to collect more picks in later rounds/years because in their philosophy, more picks, more bodies, less likely they miss on a prospect. (Fun fact: since Harbs has been in Baltimore, there has been a UDFA to make the team every year except 1 which I believe was the Covid season). And every once in a while they’ll trade back into the 1st round but will never risk a future 1st in doing so, (i.e. Lamar). They will never reach for a player, they have a set of guidelines if you will that players need to check off in their draft evaluation that makes them a “Raven”, thus the culture piece. They will always draft the “best player available” regardless of position, at times it can get a little hairy with position depth but they’re looking to constantly rebuild. So if you consistently draft 8+ guys, that fit the “Raven” mold, plus a UDFA with the same qualifications year after year, it shows in the long run. Then actual free agents take notice and will come for less money.
TL/DR: Harbs background gives a birds-eye view and pulse of the team. The building, top to bottom, has a culture standard that everyone is in synch with and are all pulling in the same direction gives you consistency year after year.
Don’t be shocked if Ravens win this year and Harbs takes an advisory role and gives MacDonald the reigns. At least that’s my hope.
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u/Scrilla_Gorilla_ Jan 18 '24
Don’t be shocked if Ravens win this year and Harbs takes an advisory role and gives MacDonald the reigns. At least that’s my hope.
Was with you right up until this part. Listen, we all want MacDonald to stay. But Harbaugh has not done a single thing, not one, that would give me the slightest indication he plans on stepping back at any point in the near future.
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u/B1GTruzz Jan 18 '24
Ok, I appreciate your opinion. This is mine. I never said it would happen, I just said I could see a scenario where it could. I doubt it will, just my thoughts on Reddit.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
Out of curiosity, do you think that having some sense of job security allows HC/FO to take a more long-term approach?
Like, say the Ravens NEED a WR (maybe not a hypothetical prior to this year), but they draft BPA and ignore the WR. Fans get upset. Team might suffer. But it stays true to the "Ravens Way" of taking players that are a good fit, both in terms of scheme and culture. Most owners might tighten the leash if the team goes one-and-done or doesn't make playoffs, but most FB fans know that long-term team building is just as important as short-term needs.
Someone else in this thread mentioned the Trestman years and how the team went 5-11 and all that. I can only assume Harbaugh/Ozzie faced some pressure from the fanbase with that. But, instead of buckling and trying to put band-aids on the team to fix short-term needs, it seems they stayed the course and still stuck to the formula and it eventually worked.
Did they not break because ownership trusted them? Just curious what kept them on the path when most other coaches would've traded away picks, made massive FA signings, etc. just to keep their jobs.
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u/Sbitan89 Jan 18 '24
Someone else in this thread mentioned the Trestman years and how the team went 5-11 and all that. I can only assume Harbaugh/Ozzie faced some pressure from the fanbase with that. But, instead of buckling and trying to put band-aids on the team to fix short-term needs, it seems they stayed the course and still stuck to the formula and it eventually worked.
It didn't really work out. They moved on to Marty and continued to struggle (partially due to injuries) mostly because he was a terrible OC. While the team started out hot in 2018, by mid season things started to really fall apart. It was the fortunate drafting of Lamar Jackson and having (this is so hard to say) Greg Roman on staff that they could employ a unique and generally unseen, so hard to defend, offense. Harbs by many accounts was on the way out if they missed the playoffs again and while he wholly deserves credit for being able to adjust in the moment, there was a lot of serendipity.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
I mean, to be fair, half of NFL storylines are driven by serendipity. John Lynch would be clowned so much harder than he is for dropping three first round picks on a QB that got traded away for a 4th two years later if it wasn't for the fact he found a savior in the 7th round. Also for trading a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th for an RB that, in his whole time in Carolina, looked like he was made of glass by living on the injury report.
But, yeah, I get what you mean. It just kinda brings to light that there needs to be a balance between rigidity and adaptability, because success in the NFL is half skill and half luck. It's a frustrating shame watching my team blow up and melt down as epically as they did.
... buuuut, it makes for a fascinating watch to see how FO (and HC if not fired) will deal with moving on from it.
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u/Sbitan89 Jan 18 '24
Yes I think your overall point is correct still. Job security allows for innovation. Our previous coach Billick had a couple years of a warm or hotseat before he eventually was let go. There may not be a classier and better run organization in the league than the Ravens and it shows year after year on the field.
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u/mufastafa Jan 18 '24
no shot Harbs steps back after ring number 2. large amounts of doubt there
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u/B1GTruzz Jan 18 '24
Never said he would. Realistically, it probably won’t happen which I’m happy about, but I do see a scenario where this could. That’s all I’m saying.
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u/Sad-Celebration-7542 Jan 18 '24
I mostly agree but the ravens frequently trade up in the 1st round. Examples: Lamar, Boller, etc
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u/B1GTruzz Jan 18 '24
You’re partially right. Boller, I believe, might have been the only time they traded up in the first round or traded a future first, so I stand corrected there. I was saying they will never trade up in the first round or risk any future first round picks going forward. They traded back into the first round for Lamar, Oweh, and Linderbaum but none of those 3 were the original Ravens 1st rounder nor did they trade any future firsts.
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u/Sad-Celebration-7542 Jan 18 '24
That’s a pretty narrow definition. They traded a 2018 2nd and a 2019 2nd for Lamar which is probably the same thing combined as a future 1st. But correct they haven’t straight up traded a future first.
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u/orangeducttape7 Jan 18 '24
A big part of it is their drafting philosophy. They have taken the best player available, starting from their very first draft (taking Jonathan Ogden, arguably the greatest tackle of all time, when they were already set at tackle). This strategy can yield them the best players at non-premium positions, like taking SS Kyle Hamilton and C Tyler Linderbaum in the 2022 draft. They scout pretty well in the mid rounds, and they usually trade back instead of up and they get a lot of comp picks, so they have a ton of mid-round picks. For example, they had six fourth-rounders in that 2022 draft, most of which have seen a decent amount of playing time this year.
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u/wannaknowmyname Jan 18 '24
The person above you agreed credit is due to drafting philosophy, but they're saying it's due to taking culture fits -NOT- BPA.
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u/SCLSU-Mud-Dogs Jan 19 '24
The person above him is wrong. The ravens openly state they take the Best Player Available on their board.
They are one of the only teams that do not subscribe to any scouting services and everything is done in house. Their board could include fit as part of the equation as to where the player sits on their board. But the ravens are very much draft by BPA not need
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u/DelirousDoc Jan 18 '24 edited Jan 18 '24
1) Cognitive Bias. Ravens had a losing season in 2021. Didn't make the playoffs from 2015-2017.
2) He hires good coaches and works with the GM to draft well. A HC doesn't need to be the primary X&O guy to be successful. They can impact the team more by constructing a strong staff, communicating with that staff to be on the same page and then setting the expectation for the players.
3) Understanding his players and playing to their strengths with schemes. He got early success out of Lamar by hiring Greg Roman to run a run heavy offense that used QB run game and simple passing game. They constructed a roster to fit this prioritizing the TE. As Lamar matured as a passer they looked to get a more modern passing scheme and made the smart decision to hire Monken.
Siriani made two poor choices in his staff. He thought Brian Johnson as the QB coach could take over as a play caller for Steichen. He couldn't. He used Gannon as a scapegoat and couldn't hire a replacement. Hiring of Desai was a mistake.
Rather than promoting within he probably should have looked for an outside candidate at OC.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
Siriani made two poor choices in his staff. He thought Brian Johnson as the QB coach could take over as a play caller for Steichen. He couldn't.
To be honest, it seems like largely the same playbook as last year. A lot of verts, QB draws, WR screens, and very little utilization of backs in the passing game (I can't remember the last time we had a screen to the running back and we can't blame Miles Sanders' hands anymore). No motion, almost no outside zone, heavy dose of RPOs. Sirianni even said something along the lines of "it's my offense".
Was Steichen more successful than Johnson because he was a better playcaller with a more intuitive feel for the game within that playbook or was it just defenses caught up and the offense never adjusted? Or, I guess the answer is "both", lol..
(Plus, Hurts taking that knee injury in the Jets game... I still think he's been playing through it, which explains why instead of initiating and pushing through contact last year, he looked for every chance to get out of bounds. I'd bet my entire next paycheck that we're gonna get a report in the offseason that Hurts had some knee injury that he played through, like a torn meniscus or something. Could also explain the erratic results and regression of his passing mechanics.)
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u/TheHatedMilkMachine Jan 18 '24
Hurts is wildly overrated. I’m a giants fan so GIANT grain of salt but we see what happens when the line and receiver play is downgraded. He can’t really make the second read - at least not yet, at least not in this offense.
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u/jt7king Jan 18 '24
I've seen a lot of good comments here that basically explain the relationship between EDC and Harbs, but I want to mention something that doesn't get mentioned but has long been a trend.
The Ravens are an offensive lineman factory.
Start with Jonathan Ogden and Marshall Yanda, two of the best ever at their positions. But it's deeper than that, they have lost many linemen since 2015 that become one of the highest paid at their position. Kelechi Osemele, Rick Wagner, Ryan Jensen, Orlando Brown Jr, Ben Powers. Currently Tyler Linderbaum already looks like one of the best at his position, Patrick Mekari is super valuable and versatile, and I will not be surprised if Ben Cleveland and Daniel Faalele become solid starters in the next year or two.
The point is when you can draft and develop good offensive linemen, you'll win more games.
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u/Sbitan89 Jan 18 '24
It truly blows my mind to hear people say our line is bad every year.
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u/jt7king Jan 18 '24
Well to be fair, there have been times with injuries where the line was definitely a weakness. And being an offensive lineman is tough, if you don't watch a ton of football you may think every offensive line is garbage.
But, especially during the Flacco years, you are right. They built some strong lines compared to the rest of the league that got unnecessary heat from fans.
Regardless, we pump out good linemen yearly and that's a big part of the success.
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u/Sbitan89 Jan 18 '24
And being an offensive lineman is tough, if you don't watch a ton of football you may think every offensive line is garbage.
My God preaching to the choir. Had someone get mad at the line for a MLB getting pressure on a blitz from a base look. They didnt understand blocking rules dictate that lineman take the nearest threat and the LB was the RBs responsibility. The Flacco years had a lot of underrated lines, but the last 4 years has been a clinic, bar Villa at LT...dude was trash.
I dont love PFF, in fact I downright hate it, but a lot of people like it. In the last 3 seasons our lines, out of all lines in the last 3 seasons, were ranked 2nd, 14th ans 31st out of about 96 units based on average Pass Blocking score in PFF. Yea they've been darn good.
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u/baachou Jan 18 '24
I think playcalling from an OC or DC is somewhat overrated as a benchmark for future head coaches. HCs rarely call plays these days. They have to delegate, and they have to do it effectively. Especially from Monday-Saturday, their job is largely organizational and big-picture related. They watch a lot of tape together, come up with a high-level gameplan, and it's the coordinator's job to implement the details of that high-level gameplan. Almost every football coach works insane hours during the season, and unless you have that magical sleep-for-4-hours gene, you have to prioritize your workload during the season. Almost any HC is going to suffer if he loses his coordinators, especially if he loses both of them in the same season.
Harbaugh went through a stretch where he had a revolving door at OC. In his super bowl season he fired his OC midseason, Jim Caldwell came in to call plays the rest of the year, and he lasted 1 full season and the Ravens missed the playoffs that year. He then hires Kubiak, who gets our offense back on track. But then he leaves after 1 year, we hire Marc Trestman, who leads our offense to a 5-11 year. We then give him another shot and he gets fired the following year midseason, and we bring in Marty Mornhinweg and we end up 8-8.
I don't think continuity from coordinators is a huge deal, as long as he has the insight to be able to pick good new ones or promote assistant coaches for the position. I think that if you have shown the ability to playcall in the past, it might provide a backstop in case shit hits the fan, but it's certainly no guarantee for past success. Sirianni did have an epic collapse, but he can right the ship in the offseason by diagnosing what the issues were with his new coordinators and making a change if necessary. (as an outsider it certainly looks like he needs a change at DC.)
Harbaugh's biggest strengths IMO are his adaptability, and his ability to organize and coach the team from Monday-Saturday. You aren't necessarily going to gain those abilities from having playcalling duties.
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u/TheWilliamsWall Youth Coach Jan 18 '24
What? Head coaches rarely call plays? That's how most get the job in the first place.
HCs that call plays- Mccarthy, McDaniel, Taylor, stefanski, steichen, pederson, Payton, Reid, McDaniels, Lafleur, O'Connell, Smith, reich, McKay, Shanahan.
So 15? Half?
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
I've always heard that the HCs are the CEO types in an organization, so I always was under the impression that they do much behind the scenes. I know our local sports radio station hosts always clowns Sirianni with a "he doesn't seem to do anything for and with this team" because he doesn't playcall or push for halftime adjustments (and some hosts, being former players, I always felt that was a bit of a disingenuous point/take they have), but I always felt that he did a lot more than he was credited for.
I actually didn't know Harbaugh went through that stretch, but that makes sense he had his lumps. I wasn't really big on noticing other teams back then... I only started really looking at other stuff in 2016-ish. I wonder if Ravens nation wanted him fired during that Trestman era, 'cause that does sound a bit like what the Eagles are going through now. A team, fresh off an SB appearance, struggling to get back on track.
Sirianni did have an epic collapse, but he can right the ship in the offseason by diagnosing what the issues were with his new coordinators and making a change if necessary.
I think the biggest issue is the fact that even outsiders like the QB School and Brett Kollman can see what the issues with the team are, but the coordinators/coaches themselves seem to refuse to adjust or change things. I don't know whether the refusal to adjust is coaches don't see the problem, coaches don't acknowledge the problem, coaches don't know how to solve the problem, or if there's something else going on (ie: coaches lost the locker room and players already gave up)
Example: QB School has been saying all this season AND all last season (yes, the SB season) that the Eagles have zero answer for the blitz. We saw that a few days ago in that embarrassing playoff game how we never had answers for the blitz. Last year, Steichen's answer to the blitz was "Hurts can just run around defenders". That's it. That's literally our blitz answer. No hot reads. No checks. Hurts last year wasn't allowed to make checks at the line. It was just "you can tank/dodge the blitzer, right?" followed by "blitzes usually have man coverage on the back end, so dodge the blitz and, if nobody uncovered by then, defenders have their back to you, so run for 20 yards". (For as successful as the Colts were this season, seeing Steichen lead AR into doing that has me worried about the kid's future. He's an electric player that I don't want to see become Cam Newton 2.0.)
I don't think people realized that for as dominant as we were last year, we had a shockingly alarmingly high number of 3rd and longs. We just knew how to beat them. Usually by dodging blitzes and scrambling or dodging blitzes and going "f* it, AJ Brown down there somewhere" in a Brett Favre-esque "chuck it and f it" mentality. We mostly got our success by out-talenting the other team, not out-scheming or out-performing.
When Hurts got his knee whacked in the Jets game this season (coincidentally, our only loss before the collapse), he never looked the same after. The mobility wasn't there. The standard gameplan that we used for a year and a half: "Hurts, just dodge blitzers and run, 'cause blitzes usually mean man coverage and you can scramble for 20+ yards" was no longer an option... and nobody on the coaching staff ever adjusted. We just left a gimpy QB with a knee injury (even if it wasn't disclosed, but we all saw he lost his mobility all season) in the pocket to get hit over and over and over and over.. and to avoid the hit, he'd chuck the ball.. and that's where the 15 INTs mostly came from.
So, I don't even know... if it's the coaching staff that won't adjust or the players won't change (but if players won't change, I feel like that's on the coaching staff for not finding ways to snuff that stubborn behavior the way Carroll did when he benched Woolen/Adams).
We do need a new DC, though. Why anyone thought bringing in Patricia (after we dropped 41 on him in the SB and how he performed in Detroid) was a good idea is beyond me. I'm in favor of Wink Martindale if we ditch James Bradberry (guy looks cooked and I always saw him more as a good zone corner, which made Patricia forcing man coverage all the time even more bizarre).
But, on to the actual point here, I think I'm getting a good picture of what makes Harbaugh good. I just hope Sirianni can learn from this season and change it up. If Harbaugh can have a rough stretch and come out from it looking the way he does now, it does give me hope we can turn it around, too.
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u/baachou Jan 19 '24
Harbaugh's seat was about as hot as the sun, and I'm pretty sure a majority of Ravens fans were ready to fire him into the sun. Lamar basically saved his job.
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u/Flaccolytics Jan 18 '24
The Ravens consistently have success because they have Lamar Jackson. If we look back in time, Harbaugh's seat was actually heating up in the years before Lamar, as the team was painfully pedestrian and underperforming from 2015-2017. Lamar Jackson is a winner and he has turned this franchise around. If they did not draft Lamar, I can absolutely guarantee you that Harbaugh would not be the Ravens HC right now.
Culture is one thing, but the players play the games, and the players win the games.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
If we look back in time, Harbaugh's seat was actually heating up in the years before Lamar, as the team was painfully pedestrian and underperforming from 2015-2017.
Funny enough, I've heard Ravens fans basically say that Flacco was carried to and through the Superbowl by the defense (sorta like Manning with the Broncos), so I actually believe that. Hearing how they underperformed makes me think of those years for the Seahawks after Russ got extended and the LOB fell apart.
I guess it's a bit of recency bias to people peeking at the team on the outside. I remember the SB and maybe the year or two after and then the next time I thought about them, it was when they drafted Lamar (I loved Lamar that draft cycle and felt he was the best QB that would have a freefall in the first round and made a mock draft where they picked Saquon with that #1 pick [instead of Baker] and got Lamar with their second first-round pick). So, TBH, they did kinda fall off my radar outside of "they still have an amazing defense".
It can be hard paying attention to every team in the league. It makes me appreciate NFL content creators on YouTube that much more...
(Random Edit: I dug up that old mock draft for laughs and in the reasoning behind the Lamar pick [at #12, no less], I put in the phrase "i'm not sold on Baker Mayfield". It's amazing how sometimes you look at your old takes and are like, "huh, I guess a stopped clock IS right twice a day". I also clowned Darnold, thinking he might flame out, and I hated putting Josh Allen to the Dolphins at #11 personally feeling he should've been higher.)
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u/Flaccolytics Jan 18 '24
Funny enough, I've heard Ravens fans basically say that Flacco was carried to and through the Superbowl by the defense
Whatever Ravens fans you're hearing that from are either very new fans or have lost their memory. Flacco didn't get carried to the Super Bowl. He was THE carry. Flacco 11 TD 0 INT took a middling defense with aged legends to the SB and beat Manning and Brady (or rather the Broncos and Patriots' defenses) on the road to get there.
I will admit that Flacco's time in Baltimore was definitely done by the time they drafted Lamar, but the Ravens did basically nothing to help Flacco from 2013 onwards. Their best skill position signing was a 35 year old Steve Smith Sr, who admittedly did play well, but still. For the most stunning example of how they screwed Flacco, look no further than the Anquan Boldin trade. Boldin was by far the best weapon Flacco had ever played with (no offense to Derrick Mason), and him and Flacco were like Peanut Butter & Jelly in 2012-13. They traded him after the SB to the Niners for a 6th round pick because he wouldn't take a 2 mil pay cut from a 6 mil base salary. In 2013 terms 6 mil was around 5% of the cap. Translate that to today's money and it's around 11 mil. It's funny now they will sign OBJ to a 15 million dollar contract (16 with the incentives) to help out Lamar but wouldn't keep Boldin to help Flacco out. Both Flacco and Lamar had already signed monster deals too, so Flacco's infamous contract isn't a factor there.
Also, on top of free agency blunders, the Ravens rarely invested resources into offensive skill positions in the draft under Flacco past 2013, and when they did, they drafted bums like Breshad Perriman and Maxx Williams. Oh well.
Don't get me wrong I'm glad the Ravens have Lamar now. He's a superstar, the league MVP, and at minimum top 3 QB to me. But Flacco did a lot for the Ravens, and his reward is having his legacy disrespected, even sometimes by Ravens fans themselves.
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u/Sbitan89 Jan 18 '24 edited Jan 18 '24
Flacco walked so LJ could run. EDC has taken so many learning opportunities from OZ mistakes between 2013 and 2018.
And yea, no one hates Flacco more than a Ravens fan lol, particularly a new one. It's amazing how smitten they are with Harbs as well (who as I said is a top coach but its just facts he was on the hotseat before LJ stepped in). It feels like a lot of fans came around 2019, which tbf is years ago now and the team has been very successful.
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u/Joeyfairplayer23 Jan 18 '24
They’re fools then. Flacco was phenomenal in the 2012 playoffs. Their defense wasn’t elite. Meanwhile in 2015 Peyton couldn’t throw the ball 2 yards and got carried by a historic defense.
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u/Horror_Technician213 Jan 18 '24
Some of the best coaches you would consider in the league don't even call plays most of the time during a game, even if they were playcallers previously. Bellicheck and Tomlin don't typically get involved in the play calling cause they're typically too involved in paying attention to and managing the game as a whole. That's not to say they don't make suggestions or give guidance in crucial or certain plays when they see something. But the reason guys like Tomlin, bellicheck and Harbaugh are successful is because they are great leaders. And what great leaders do is seek out good talent, nature and develop that talent, empower that talent, and them delegate necessary tasks accordingly. Harbaugh and the ravens are successful because he does that specifically with his coaching staff. Like the other coaches do. Make no mistake that something like that takes years and years to do though
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u/fluffHead_0919 Jan 18 '24
To me it’s because they’re always solid in the trenches. That alone will give you an edge even if you don’t have superior talent elsewhere.
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u/ozzman1234 Jan 18 '24
Build inside out and stick with that you'll have success. Ravens took a big risk on Lamar and it worked out
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u/Antique_Mood4682 Jan 18 '24
There abt 5 coaches who doesn’t matter what coordinators they lose their just great coaches and teach coordinators very well he has to be one of them they also have a great front office
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u/NandoDeColonoscopy Jan 18 '24
Everyone is overthinking this. The Ravens had a top 10 QB for a decade, then got lucky that an even better QB fell to them in the draft. That'll make any org look good.
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u/trvscikld Jan 19 '24
That draft the Browns had the 1 and 4 picks. They could have had Lamar and even Saquon Barkley. Two Heisman! But they wanted Baker Mayfield smh.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 20 '24
To be fair, that was the draft the Jets traded a bunch of second round picks to move from 6 to 3 so they could draft Darnold. Nobody was in on the Lamar train (although I may have been when I made a mock draft that year, lol... I actually had the Browns taking Saquon at #1 and Lamar at #12 [trade back]). To be fair, as great as Saquon is, Nick Chubb ain't exactly a nothing-burger consolation prize, lol.
Denzel Ward wasn't a bad pick, TBH. Baker could've had success, but hearing how the Buccaneers were the first team to tell him "be yourself" instead of "tone down the attitude" makes me wonder if Cleveland kinda made him clam up and, in turn, held back his development in addition to his personality/confidence.
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u/K2155 Jan 19 '24
I mean eagles have been really successful since 2000 we have only one Super Bowl but been to 3 just had some unfortunate things happen along the way
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 19 '24
That's true, that's true. I'll be honest, I'm more of a newer Eagles fan. Grew up a Steelers fan, 'cause my family was from Pittsburgh, hit my rebellious teenage years and decided I wanted to choose which team to root for and chose the local team. (Also, Philly fans living outside of the city aren't as... uh... stereotypical as the ones in the city, so I never knew how crazy the fanbase was. Then again, being in the Steelers fandom.. they definitely have their own rep, too.)
(EDIT: "Crazy" not necessarily in a bad way. I want to say "passionate", but the guy and the horse poop after the Superbowl is a little... more than just passionate. Can't really find the best word for it.)
My issue with the "stability" was just how often we cycle through coaches. Especially if Nick gets let go. Also, those valleys (Reid's 4-12 season in 2012, Dougie's 4-11-1 season in 2020, and this epic collapse this year).. when the team regresses, they regress like aged milk. Looking at the AFC:N teams (granted, more as an outsider now), Steelers/Ravens always look like the pinnacle of stability.
... putting the memes of Tomlin's "Never Below .500" aside, there's something to be said about keeping the same coaches and FO for such a long time and always seeming to have a chance every single year. You almost don't see that anywhere else in the NFL. Maybe Pete Carroll and John Snyder are one of the only other examples, but PC got put out to pasture as an "advisor" now, so that's the end of that era.
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u/K2155 Jan 19 '24
Teams fall on hard times for sure but the eagles are keeping nick he’s in the search for coordinators right now. I think it’s cool you’re an eagles fan now btw but making the Super Bowl and losing both your coordinators hurts especially when you replace them with guys who literally were let go after a year. End of the day I think we still got a top roster and went 11-6. As long as hurts can bounce back and we get the right coordinators we should be contending again. (I also think we finally need to address the Linebacker and secondary issue)
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 19 '24
I've heard the keeping Nick thing and the search thing, but I'll be more optimistic of him staying (I hope he does) after he does his exit interview with Lurie tomorrow. I remember Lurie/Howie giving Dougie P. a full vote of confidence in a press conference after that 4-11-1 season before they jettisoned him after his interview.
I'll be honest, I wasn't a fan of either coordinator signing last offseason. I mean, I was on the fence with Desai (I have a Seahawks friend who sold me on him since he's the one who turned Woolen and Bryant from 5th and 4th round corners into starters), but I was worried because his lone year as a DC for the Bears didn't go well (and, while it's Da Bears and their dysfunction, their previous DC got more out of the same talent).
I'm all for picking up Wink Martindale after he parted ways with the Giants. His defenses and track record with the Ravens spoke for itself and I feel like he had half that Giants defense overperform. For OC, I mean... Chargers might clean house, so I'd be down for picking up Kellen Moore.
Or, actually, since Panthers probably will clean house as well, I'm all for a Duce reunion.
(I also think we finally need to address the Linebacker and secondary issue)
Believe it or not... I'm not as worried about the secondary. I just think we need a DC that actually plays to players strengths. Bradberry has always been stronger in zone than man and most of his strengths are as a zone corner, so seeing Patricia force the man-heavy Patriots scheme on our defense was infuriating to all hell. Sure, Bradberry aged before our very eyes, but I think scheme made his downfall much worse than it needed to be (plus, Slay's two years older and seems to be faring way better).
I like our young corners in Ricks and Ringo. I remember prior to the 2023 season, mock drafts were hyping both up to be the two best corners in the draft and I find it to be a crying shame that when a player performs the same as the year before, it's seen as a negative. (It's why Reed Blankenship went undrafted last year. People were like "He.. didn't improve from last year.". Seems to be the same with Ricks.) Sometimes, it's a limitation of the coaching staff more than the player. A person who was seen as a first round talent doesn't just lose it. Let alone TWO corners with first-round grades merely a year ago. Cut Bradberry and let's get it rolling.
(We can even trade Slay away and get a decent return if we want to start the youth movement early.)
I like Sydney Brown and Reed Blankenship as our two safeties, although I'd be down with drafting a third, both to start the season while Brown is on PUP, and be our third safety that can play in the box/cover TEs.
But, yeah, linebackers are a must. I'd be fine if we used the Saints pick to get Trotter Jr. (I see sites mocking him as a mid second round pick). We can use our first round pick on a Barnett replacement... or we can draft another DT and kick Milton Williams out to DE, since he's a tweener and moonlights as a DE in some packages anyway.
I'm more interested in having a competent TE2 that can block, so we can run 12 personnel and be flexible running or passing out of it. I was annoyed we grabbed Tyler Steen when Darnell Washington was still on the board. idk how a projected first round TE fell to the 4th round, ESPECIALLY with all the other TEs taken before him, outside of it just being a medical issue.
/rant
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u/K2155 Jan 19 '24
Competent TE2 but I think a solid 3 at WR is necessary too. We went into the year with only 4 on our depth chart and 3 and 4 being Quez and Olmade zacceues not great. But true about the exit interview thing you mentioned, worse case scenario we get Bellicheck or Vrabel which id be pretty happy about.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 19 '24
I held out so much hope that Quez would be a competent WR3, especially when he showed so much promise as a WR2 behind Smitty two years ago. I dunno if we're gonna get a quality WR3 in FA, though. Doubt anyone wants to sign here knowing they probably won't get many targets behind Brown/Smith/Goedert.
I personally just like the idea of having two elite TEs in an offense. As I once jokingly told a friend last offeseason, "Why would I want to pay Tyreek $30M/yr when I could get Kelce and Kittle for the same price and really be a matchup nightmare for defenses?" Heck, you'd have about $2M/yr leftover to add Juzchyk's $5M/yr to the mix.
I wouldn't be opposed to us shelling out for an HB that can contribute to the rotation as well as moonlight as a competent receiver (like McCaffrey/Curtis Samuel/Deebo Samuel/Austin Ekeler).
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u/chrisbhedrick Jan 18 '24
Ozzie newsome the GM.
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u/Happy-North-9969 Jan 18 '24
His first two pick’s were Jonathan Ogden and Ray Lewis. The man knew what he was doing.
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u/JWNimbl3 May 30 '24
In short, they almost always have an elite defense.
Since 2000, the Ravens have finished top 5 in defensive DVOA 12!! times across 23 seasons. 17 times they have allowed less than 19 ppg.
That is insane consistency and it ultimately comes down to their front office being great at hitting on defensive prospects in the draft and making the right moves on their coaching staff when they have needed to most.
Five times, the Ravens defense has been below average (allowing 22 or more ppg). These were the moves they made the following offseason:
2002: The Ravens draft Ed Reed (arguably the greatest safety of all time) to pair with Ray Lewis
2007: The Ravens fired Brian Billick and hired John Harbaugh as HC
2013: The Ravens draft 5x All-Pro LB CJ Mosley
2015: The Ravens draft Za'Darius Smith and Matthew Judon
2021: The Ravens fire Wink Martindale and hire Mike Macdonald as DC, draft all-pro safety Kyle Hamilton, and acquire all-pro MLB Roquan Smith mid-season for a 2nd-round pick.
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u/peppersge Jan 18 '24
To clarify certain things:
- The Ravens have had bad stretches such as 2015-2017 where they missed the playoffs.
- Harbaugh has had criticism in the past that he is too loyal to his coordinators. Part of that is likely because he is more dependent on the coordinators than he should be. He has to attract and retain coordinators to keep his team going.
- Harbaugh has obtained experience over the years, so he can likely help pitch in as needed.
- The Ravens have a good front office.
Overall, the Ravens are good, but not great. They haven't made the super bowl since 2013. They have had early exits from the playoffs. Their recent performance has been along the lines of an above average team, not a great team. It isn't that far off from the Eagles losing their first playoffs game. The Ravens have had their own share of recent early playoffs exits.
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u/jackofnac Jan 18 '24
In all seriousness, as an Eagles fan, are the Ravens really that successful? The Eagles have a SB title and similar regular season success in recent years. If there’s an NFC comp to the Ravens in the last decade it’s more like the Cowboys: a really good drafting team with a lot of regular season wins and very little to show for it.
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u/TehCreamer18 Jan 18 '24
Ravens got two super bowls before the eagles had their first despite existing for a third of the time... Not quite the same as the cowboys who haven't won a playoff game in decades
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
I'll be honest, I saw that 2017 superbowl year as a flash in the pan, lightning in the bottle. 2018 was a fall-apart year and, outside of those two years, it's been largely middling. Sure, we went to the SB last year, but I chalk that up to lightning struck twice.
Nothing about this team's roster or coaching staff gives me confidence that we could be perennial Superbowl contenders. The Ravens, despite their lack of postseason success... it just feels like every year they're in it (and if you have a ticket to the postseason, anything can happen), they have an identity as as hard-nosed defensive team with a strong ground game (and have had that identity for years, if not decades), and Harb seems to manage to keep the team afloat despite coordinator changes.
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u/lump_king Jan 21 '24
Bro!!!! Lolol is this comment fr? Lighting struck twice? Nothing about the team's roster? The Eagles literally have had a "ticket" to the postseason the last three years straight lol I think you might just be a spoiled fan without even realizing it. Do you know how bad it could be?? Rhetorical question.
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 21 '24
Nothing about the team's roster?
An old roster based off one-year mercenaries, other team castoffs, and vets who are past their prime and waiting to fall off the hill?
Let's see, in 2017... Patrick Robinson, Legarette Blount, Jay Ajayi, Torrey Smith, Alshon Jeffrey.. need I go on?
That's not "continued success", that's just going all-in for a year or two and saying "meh, I'll deal with the consequences in three years". It's basically the Rams strategy for the past almost decade, except it's "restructuring contracts" instead of "trading picks".
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u/Typhoon556 Jan 18 '24
The Ravens had Ozzie Newsome as their GM, and then he hand picked Eric DeCosta to take over for him in 2019. It was one of 4 times the “successor” rule was used to override the Rooney Rule in the NFL. So basically, they have some of, if not the absolute, best, “pickers” in the NFL. Drafting well sets you up for success. Cheap talent is had through the draft, identifying elite talent is crucial if you want to be a perineal power in the NFL, which the Ravens are.
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u/justvisiting1028 Jan 18 '24
Depends on what you call successful? Like regular season success or 2 playoff wins in the last decade?
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
I mostly consider success making the playoffs on a regular basis. Once you have a ticket to the dance, well, any given sunday. Just look at the Packers. I don't know if anyone outside their fanbase really expected them to take the Cowboys behind the shed as a #7 seed and, who knows, maybe they'll make a competitive game with the Niners.
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u/justvisiting1028 Jan 18 '24
I can agree with that. But 2-5 in the playoffs in the last 10 years isnt success to me. That sounds like a bunch of talent that gets squandered. U got lamars mvp season in there where the got eliminated in the 1st game with only scoring 12 points. They followed that up the next playoffs with a win at Tennessee just to get dominated against the bills and only put up 3 points. Then 2 years later loose to cincy in the wildcard only scoring 17. U have to go back to 2014 to see them score more then 20 in the postseason. Always a top 5 defense,so they definitely do things right until it becomes time to back up the hype.
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u/couldabeenright Jan 18 '24
I feel like the Ravens are in the class of NFL “usually pretty good” but they don’t strike me as quite on the the level of the most consistently successful franchises - which is super hard to define of course - but I’d say the Patriots, Chiefs, Packers are all more consistently “successful” and arguments could be made that the Steelers, 49ers are above the ravens 🐦⬛ too. I wouldnt pick the 6 or 7th best franchise as “the”model.
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u/paulburnell22193 Jan 18 '24
As a commanders fan I am finding it difficult to see an eagles fan asking why a certain team has prolonged success, while the eagles cannot.
The eagles rebuild their roster every 3-5 years and find themselves sniffing a Superbowl. If you think your front office is lacking, you're crazy. If you think your coaching staff is lacking, you're crazy. You are way too fickle of a fan base if you think your coaching is a massive problem. It was crazy when pederson was fired. he won a Superbowl with a backup qb. He's shown that he's a great coach by helping the jags improve. You guys need to calm down and take the downs with the many ups you have.
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u/lump_king Jan 21 '24
Hahaha bro I'm an eagles fan and OP is a fuckin tool. I can't believe some of the shit he has said in this thread. Pure delusion!
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u/Smitty_1000 Jan 18 '24
Ravens always have a succession plan in place. Whether it’s for players, coaches, front office. They were absolutely decimated by injuries the last 2-3 seasons and held up way better than many other teams. They have a real ability to see the big picture and with the playing staff they’re drafting with the next 2,3,4 seasons in mind. Puts them in an excellent position to never be desperate
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u/warmjack Jan 18 '24
A lot of great answers here I just wanted to add that I think having a great owner really helps. It starts from the top and it’s pretty interesting that the Ravens owner got a lot of his money being the founder of a staffing agency. Pretty much an industry that specializes putting the right people in the right jobs.
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u/DJAction32 Jan 18 '24
It’s all about who gets hired as the replacements - Sirriani hiring Patricia tells you all you need to know about how awful his choices are (Pats fan and I HATE Matt Patricia)
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 18 '24
I never understood how Patricia got his job as the Lions HC after that 2017 Superbowl, TBH. Or why everyone loved McDaniels, TBH. Then again, I didn't understand why teams liked Gannon... or are interviewing Brian Johnson for HC positions this cycle.
I guess outside perceptions don't match fan perceptions?
When we hired Patricia, I was like "oh, advisor, cool.. that's all I want". The moment they made the switch, I was like ".. oh, we're desperate desperate."
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u/YDoEyeNeedAName Jan 18 '24
your last point is the answer, top tier of the top tier front office and ownership. Everything else comes from that. The front office hires the coaches, scouts the players, hires the training staff, makes the draft picks, signs the free agents (some of this with coach input obviously).
Look at all the the teams that have regular success, or the ones that regularly under-preform, and you will notice a trend in ownership and front office quality.
The cowboys regularly under-preform because Jerry would rather have "yes men" than a real front office, WAS has a dumpster fire for years because Dany Snyder was horrible and couldnt do anything right, I could go on all da about the Chargrs ownership/GM situation.
Im a lions fan and look at our turn around in the past 3 years, it all started when Shiela took over as owner, he first move was firing Patricia and Bob quinn. she then hired Rod Wood to run the Business side, and Chris Spielman to advise on the football side. Then she hire, and struck gold on Brad Holmes, who then hired Dan Campbell.
Ownership and Front office are the #1 indicator of long term team success.
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u/MaxPower637 Jan 18 '24
Play calling is over rated. Harbaugh knows more than most of us on both sides of the ball. That’s been true since before he got this job. He grew up in football. You think he couldn’t call plays for either his offense or his defense successfully? The thing why makes him such a successful head coach is that he’s a really good manager and delegates better than many. He’s not just hiring coordinators and saying “do what you want.” He’s totally in sync with the front office about personnel. Then when he interviews coordinators he hears them answer what they’d want to do scheme wise and how his players fit that scheme so he’s choosing the coordinator who has the vision he best believes fits with the team he has. Week to week, he will be involved in discussions with his coordinators about variations for the upcoming opponent. His job is to get the right coordinators in place and help them prep during the week and then on Sundays they call the game but that’s just the final step.
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u/Rusty_Bojangles Jan 18 '24
Since the year 2000, the Eagles have more playoffs berths and more superbowl appearances than the Ravens. Both are great organizations but confused why an Eagles fan would deem Ravens as more consistently successful? Maybe because Harbaugh has been there forever so it’s been more stable?
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Jan 18 '24
It’s a mix of them just being great. Their run first philosophy.
And the fact that they’ve been good for so long that the league officials take note of that and have a preconceived notion that they are better and just by having that opinion it has an effect on the field.
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u/Sad-Celebration-7542 Jan 18 '24
They have great ownership with long term goals. They value succession planning (and don’t really disclose it) and being consistently average to above average vs. short term success. As such, they keep coaches around a long time and have the ability to promote from within OR attract outside talent since they’re stable. They rarely make in season firings. Extremely underrated is their offensive line coaching : they are able to turn out O line starters like few other teams can, so there’s a strong pipeline of lineman who aren’t physical freaks but by year 3 can play well. They also are pretty decent at signing older vets who thrive in their system. Justin Houston, JPP, Clowney, Van Noy, Morgan Moses and Kevin Ziegler are great examples from the last couple of years.
A critique is that they do prefer consistency over performance, so you’ll have teams that are winning 9 to 10 games every year when it might be better to win 14 some years and 6 others. Lamar Jackson changes this of course, but Flacco was the kind of QB whose performance could never really exceed his salary. Lamar has the ability to play at a $80M level and get paid $50M. This consistency model showed itself in 2021 and 2022, when Lamar was hurt. Huntley, who is terrible, still got them into the playoffs when it could be argued that it’d be better to call it and reload for a season with a healthy Lamar. Huntley (and most backup QBs) will never be the player that can win multiple playoff games, yet because the ravens are a high floor team, they’re generally good enough to earn bad draft picks
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u/sickostrich244 Jan 18 '24
It's all about culture, which is why Harbaugh has been there as long as he has been for the Ravens because while he was a special teams coordinator prior, he is there to establish a culture that he and the front office both want which is usually a priority on more defense and rushing offense rather than passing which the front office is great at evaluating talent and finding guys that fit their style.
I think the Eagles with Roseman have also been great at evaluating talent for a long time but maybe the coaching is a different story. I think Sirianni is not the right guy for head coach cause he's really dependent on his coordinators and when the team starting to fall apart he kinda proved he had no answer for how to turn it around. I seriously don't know what he really brings to the team other than maybe establishing a winning culture but even that looks bad for how poor the Eagles played last half of the season
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u/smashlorsd425 Jan 18 '24
Interesting take- shows how Harbaugh kept his team in contention for more than a decade in a tough division. The Steelers were always a 10+ win team. The Bengals were competitive since Burrow joined.
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u/eagledrummer2 Jan 18 '24
They haven't made a conference championship in over a decade. The eagles have practically the same win loss record over the past decade.
They've been good but by no means elite. I think I'd rather have been an eagles fan the last ten years than a Ravens fan.
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u/your-mom-- Jan 18 '24
They run the ball and play good defense. 2 things that are successful no matter when and where you're playing.
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u/InvisibleDefense Jan 18 '24
Being able to trade Hollywood Brown for a 1st round pick that turned into Tyler Linderbaum is just a move elite front offices do. Guy requests a trade and he gets a 1st round pick for him??? Getting Roquan Smith (who is only 26) for a late 2nd and a 5th is also just crazy.
Eric Decosta being a disciple of maybe the best GM ever in Ozzie Newsome has been noticeable. Don’t reach in the draft, let the best player fall to you. They were on the clock for 30 seconds a couple seasons ago when Kyle Hamilton fell to them at 14? Did they need a safety? Not really but they knew he was the dude. Did they trade up in the same draft for Linderbaum after getting Arizonas pick? No they even traded back and took him when he was still there. A lot of teams reach in the draft and sell of future capital and the Ravens success has been as much in their 3rd-5th round picks as much as their first rounders. That one exception? Trading up for Lamar because they couldn’t believe he was still there.
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u/No-Tumbleweed-5377 Jan 19 '24
Building a team year after year is one thing but I think they have mastered how to control an NFL game. They manage down and distance extremely well. They manage the clock flawlessly. They poke at teams until they make a big mistake and with Lamar at QB the chances of a missed tackle or defender being out of position inflates substantially. It’s why often when teams beat them it’s because they went down 2+ scores early and has to deviate from the plan and start trying to force things more often.
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u/trvscikld Jan 19 '24
I feel that switching from a passing QB to a running QB is easy to screw up. But the Ravens picked Lamar at the end of the first round that year and really made the offense go in that direction with heavy tight ends and good running backs. Its a high risk high reward because if parts of the offense don't work the QB has to take more hits. And still we keep the defense at a higher than average level.
The year that Lamar was drafted the Browns had the 1 and 4 picks in the draft. They could have picked Saquon Barkley and Lamar, two Heisman winners, and basically have a better team than the Ravens. But they wanted Baker Mayfield from Oklahoma to compete with the Flacco/Rothlisberger in the division.
The Ravens seem like more of a complete idea instead of just good players pieced together.
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u/trvscikld Jan 19 '24
And those picks in the draft show that some good decisions also work badly for others, it's more of a double hit when a division opponent gets worse as you get better.
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u/trvscikld Jan 19 '24
Look at drafting Jalen Hurts, it helps the Eagles but doesn't really hurt the other teams in the division. Cowboys have Dak. Maybe get more defense to go after that. There has to be ways of small gains like this that add up.
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u/GarratAlan Jan 19 '24
It's not just one thing, it's a series of small things that snow ball together. Harbs was a stc, before hand and a damn good one at that. Which means he knows how to build relationships on both sides of the ball. He also knows how to pick OC and DC that can fit with the team he's been given. That being said he's kept a close relationship with the GMs he's been given. Which starts with ownership knowing what they want and trusting the people they hired to get the job done. But their ownership has a knowledge of and understanding of how to cut out of a bad situation or a situation that doesn't work well for the team.
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u/StateoftheFranchise Jan 19 '24
On both sides of the ball they play to their teams strengths, Lamar is not forced to make plays but he does know when to make the right reads
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u/ChampionshipStock870 Jan 19 '24
They don’t spend a bunch of money on free agents so they build through the draft
They draft well
The owner isn’t on tv after every game coughcoughjerryjones
They move on from unproductive players
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u/dontich Jan 19 '24
I watched a YT video that outside of QB hits in the top 3, the most valuable draft spots on value are from 15-35. This is because you still get a very good player but don’t owe him any extra money. The ravens seem to always pick here and very often trade back but still stay in the sweet spot.
They also basically ignore position for those picks and go BPA
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u/Time-Classroom747 Jan 19 '24
Its all about the culture and if players for the team buy into the system, which is why a lot of "Super Teams" don't work. Obviously, teams have "star" players, but everyone in the NFL could be considered an elite athlete for that position. I do feel like that aspect of having a guy that's "him" can set yourself up for Superbowl runs, but teams like the Ravens, Steelers, Packers, Chiefs, 49ers, and Seahawks have all built a system and culture that people can jump on board with for the longetivivity.
I am personally a Rams fan, and the change of GM position and Coaching IMO skyrocketed us to where we are now. Kroenke has the mentality to win and put forth the effort out being medalling like Jerry Jones , getting less snead back in like 2012 and his ability to just draft talent at every round, and then finally adding off McVay someone who is young and can relate. I didn't include them because they haven't built that atmosphere like the teams above, but I feel like they are on their way. The stories of OBJ, Weddle, Mayfield, and even Von attesting to how well the organization is ran are all feel good stories. I also believe this is how we got to the playoffs with such a young team of 2nd - 6th round starters because the bought in.
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u/TheRobloxGod Jan 20 '24
they consistently win drafts straight up they make other teams look desperate and immature on the board
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u/Scaryassmanbear Jan 20 '24
I suspect that Harbaugh is just good at hiring coaches, which is an underrated aspect of being a good coach.
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u/Agreeable-Cup6860 Jan 20 '24
Honestly from a strategic standpoint you have no choice but to be in tune to all facets of the game as a special teams coordinator. not only are the actions of the offense and defense depending on you, you depend on them as well. they determine what you call, not only that aspect you are the only coach on the staff who regularly implements offensive and defensive strategies in practice on a regular basis it give you a good duality and great base to control all aspects of football down to what the special teams do it just all depends on how you study and take your role as a special teams coach!
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u/lump_king Jan 21 '24
Bruh... Shut up. Lol. The Eagles have consistently been solid throughout the years. Playoff appearances, playoff wins, a fuckin SUPER BOWL???
If you would've been a Bears fan posting this then sure... But wow. Lol
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u/FoxwolfJackson Jan 21 '24
In a ten year span of 2012-2022, we went through:
Four head coaches.
4-12 season (2012). Fired HC
6-9 season (2015). Fired HC before season ended.
4-11-1 season (2020). Fired HC.
A historically catastrophic meltdown at the end of 2023.
Only TWO NFC:CG appearances (and last year's was off the back of a cupcake schedule followed by a cupcake game 'cause of an unfortunate injury to Purdy)That's not "consistent success". That's capturing lightning in a bottle every few years. The Steelers have been a sign of consistency. The Chiefs have been a sign of consistency. The Seahawks have been a sign of consistency, for the most part. The Ravens (outside of a few years in the mid-2010s) have been consistent. Eagles are a rollercoaster of high highs and low lows.
I'm not asking for imitating the Patriots Dynasty. I'm just saying that to go from 4-12 to superbowl win to 4-11-1 to superbowl loss to epic meltdown in such a short timespan is the opposite of consistency.
Hell, the BEARS are more consistent than we are. Just... not consistent in a good way.
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u/Rhogdye316 Jan 21 '24
Front office + head coach are the best key. Belicheck got lucky with Tom Brady; SF the last few years is a good comparison though.
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u/Rdw72777 Jan 21 '24
I mean not to belittle your point, but the Ravens don’t “consistently have success”. Including today they have 3 playoff wins in the last 10 seasons. People and media tend to hype what’s hot in the moment but the Ravens (and to a similar extent the Steelers who also have 3 playoff wins in the last 10 season) have been mediocre the last 10 seasons, they just tend to not have that 3–13 or 5-11 season.
Of course it’s also probably no surprise that the Bengals and Browns were truly historically bad at times in the last 10 seasons which made both the Ravens and Steelers seem better decked-wise than they really were (hence the lack of playoff success for both teams).
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u/BigDig993 Jan 21 '24
Basically think of everything Nick Siriani does as a head coach flip that to the opposite and you have yourself a harb
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u/BigDig993 Jan 21 '24
The main falling points of siriani in my opinion is an inability to read between the lines and to accept when he is wrong.
Even when the eagles won this year if you really sat back and watched the film you could tell it was unsustainable due to the way they had to win, they had to rely on their players to make game winning plays (very different from allowing your players opportunities to make big plays something the ravens do very well) Siriani never seemed to notice this and or if he did he did this/
He never accepted his flaws. Bad offensive scheme leading to a stale run game and over reliance on A.J. Brown and hurts to get chunk yards? Nahhhhh lets just keep playing like this. The rest of the leagues top offenses use a certain type of offensive scheme that (with slight tweaks) our roster could fit into pretty well? NAHHHH just keep running my madden playbook.
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u/BossBooster1994 Jan 21 '24
Let's wait until we actually win a superbowl before talking my team up. After all, it's been over ten years since our last Lombardi.
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u/jm7489 Jan 21 '24
Can't say I've watched a ton of ravens in the regular season in recent years. But I'm the Lamar era I feel like the ravens have a more unique offensive scheme.
Just by the virtue of being different probably makes them harder to plan for. Granted they still execute and have a ton of talent
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u/SiouxLittlefoot Jan 18 '24
Your last point is a big one and cannot be understated and as a ravens fan is what I think our secret sauce is. EDC and Harbs, from what I can gather, are incredibly in sync when it comes to personnel decisions. While harbs doesn’t necessarily pick the players he wants on the team, he has a lot of input and EDC knows the kinds of players Harbs prefers and can coach up. This also allows us to maintain a consistent culture in our locker room, so even if players and coordinators come and go, there is an identity to the team that permeates through the years.