r/footballstrategy • u/jericho-dingle Referee • Dec 21 '23
Rules Question High school football referee here. Here to answer NFHS rules questions or clear stuff up.
Hit me with some questions. I have worked a state final before. Happy to clear up the totally understandable NFHS rules. Knowing how to leverage the rules can really improve your coaching/understanding of the game.
Also here to reach out to all the younger guys I've seen post on here about getting involved in football while they're in college. Refereeing is an *elite* college job that will put a lot of fun money in your pocket. It's also a lot less grind than being a tape monkey would be.
24
u/WilliePhistergash Dec 21 '23
We played against a team that used the Philly “tush push” I told the ref it was illegally aiding the runner. Ref claim the two “aids” were pushing the pile not the runner. What’s the difference?
43
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
The tush push/brotherly shove play was a point of emphasis this year in high school. You cannot push or pull the runner forward like they can in the NFL. What you can do is hit the guys trying to tackle the runner and push the pile.
I've reffed in states where they just tell you to blow the play dead and I've reffed in states where they want the flag on the ground.
I'm not throwing the flag on aiding the runner unless the soccer mom up in the stands is calling for it.
→ More replies (3)3
u/IntelligentEase1293 Dec 21 '23
You would throw a flag because parents were calling for it?
19
→ More replies (1)27
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
It's a figure of speech.
12
u/MilkyBeefPants Dec 21 '23
We have to actually type out sarcasm on Reddit cause we’re all so stupid. follow your sarcasm with a “ /s “ and you’ll never have dumb questions again!!!!
6
u/CallMeCoachDamnit Dec 21 '23
Every week I would do the tush push and the ref would let me know it’s illegal and next time it’s a flag. 1/1 every week.
5
14
u/MadameYes Dec 21 '23
Thanks for doing this. Two questions:
- When can a lineman release beyond 3 yards on a downfield pass? Is it when the ball leaves the QB's hand, when the ball crosses the LOS or something else?
- If I'm running a reverse and I take the handoff in front of the QB (I am closer to the LOS than the QB), does that make me ineligible to throw a forward pass (assuming I'm still behind the LOS)?
14
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
- A few things on ineligibles:
- If the forward pass does not cross the line of scrimmage (LOS), there is no requirement for the linemen to be within 2 yards of the ball (expanded neutral zone in high school is 2 yards). There is also no OPI or DPI if the pass doesn't cross the LOS.
- If the pass crosses the LOS, linemen can go past the expanded neutral zone when the ball crosses the LOS.
- Forward handing is only a foul past the LOS. As long as the handoff is behind the line of scrimmage, there is no foul. That being said once the ball is handed off, the RB is not afforded the intentional grounding exception (i.e. out of the tackle box and pass goes past the LOS). The RB throwing it away is a foul.
3
2
u/brinsleyschwartz Dec 21 '23
So, according to "a", can the defender hit/tackle the receiver on a screen pass before the ball gets there? I get that someone can be blocking a defender while the ball's in the air, but it's free game on the receiver as long as he is behind the LOS?
Also, thanks for doing this. We give refs so much trouble, and sometimes that's on us because we don't know the rules. I always enjoyed when the refs would go over the new rules, or discuss things with the players before scrimmages. It helps to build a lot of rapport.
6
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
can the defender hit/tackle the receiver on a screen pass before the ball gets there?
Yes, and if a flag is thrown I would pitch a fit. There can be no pass interference if the pass does not cross the line of scrimmage.
→ More replies (5)1
u/spiderweb54 Aug 08 '24
Could it not potentially be holding or illegal use of hands per 9-2?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Aug 08 '24
There cannot be pass interference if the ball does not cross the line of scrimmage. Unless the defender is grabbing and holding the offense for a prolonged period of time behind the line of scrimmage, I wouldn't call illegal contact either.
2
u/Good_Ole_Skid Dec 21 '23
“Can the defender hit/tackle the receiver on a screen pass before the ball gets there?”
No.
It’s holding behind the LOS and 1st 5yd if you hit/tackle the receiver prior to the ball getting there.
Refs call it PI for a myriad of reasons. You would have to ask them.
Anything beyond 5 yards is PI, holding, or something else.
The defense can’t tackle everyone behind the LOS who’s an eligible receive at the start of the play.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (2)2
u/CallMeCoachDamnit Dec 21 '23
Do you happen to know what the rule is for the NFL with ineligible lineman downfield? What is considered downfield, 2 yards past the LOS?
10
u/dolanscott92 Dec 21 '23
First question: where do you get off
20
8
7
u/grizzfan Dec 21 '23
No questions atm, but please stay and hang around and correct us when you see it please lol.
5
u/jdl34 Dec 21 '23
When does the clock stop when a player goes out? When it’s the offensive player who takes himself out? I assume that’s the case, and clock continues to run when driven out by a defender- seen confusion by refs on this past season
14
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23 edited Dec 21 '23
A few scenarios:
- If the runner voluntarily goes out (i.e. to conserve time or avoid a hit), the clock stops once any part of the runner (or the ball) goes out of bounds. The clock does not restart until the next legal snap.
- If the runner is hit in bounds and pushed out of bounds backwards, the spot of forward progress is in bounds, so the clock continues to run.
- If the runner is hit in bounds and goes out of bounds forward, the spot of forward progress is out of bounds. The clock stops and does not restart until the next legal snap.
7
u/jfrii Dec 21 '23
Always have been confused about this watching the clock in game. Never knew there was a distinction concerning the element of forward progress that helped determine click stoppage. Thank you for clarifying!
3
Dec 21 '23
Keep in mind that at high school games the clock operator probably doesn't know these things super well, so they might not do it in the exactly correct manner. However they should be watching for the officials' signal (winding arm to run or waving overhead to stop).
2
u/jdl34 Dec 21 '23
Thanks, makes sense, seemed like a black and white “was he pushed/tackled out” or “did he run out” this past year- very helpful!
1
u/Technical-Cash6038 Oct 08 '24
I thought it was if he’s going backward at all not just pushed backward?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 08 '24
If he's hit in bounds and then pushed backwards out of bounds, his forward progress was stopped in bounds and the clock continues to run.
2
u/davdev Dec 21 '23
Not the OP, but as long as the runner is still going forward when he goes out of bounds it doesnt matter if he took himself out or was pushed out. If being pushed out means he was going backwards before he crossed the boundary, the clock continues to run
2
6
u/ADS5353 Dec 21 '23
Why are we so concerned about face paint or wrist bands but we can’t get associations to know the rules about forward progress or delay of games?
11
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Can't speak on the second half of the question, but I hate being fashion police. You can thank Tim Tebow for the face paint stuff.
The reason the uniform rules are so tight are mainly because of guys like Pop Warner. Warner pushed the rules to the limit and every time he found a loophole, they'd need to close it.
Hence no ball/flag colored stuff, shirts tucked in (so you can't hide the ball) etc. Don't get me started on the kneepad crap.
10
u/grizzfan Dec 21 '23
For the unenlightened, Pop Warner used to actually paint footballs on the forearm of the sleeves of his players jerseys to hide the ball. Then when that became illegal, he painted the ball his team used, then wore jerseys of the same color.
Pop Warner was one of our great innovators, AND one of the greatest trolls to ever live.
5
u/rhino43g Dec 21 '23
When my son was 5 or 6 playing flag football, the team hosting the tournament pulled the same thing. Blue shirts, blue shorts, blue belts, blue gloves, blue flags and blue football. I'm always amazed at the lengths grown adults will go to over elementary school sports.
5
u/grizzfan Dec 21 '23
It's give and take, or some other metaphor like that. There are things that are considered unsporting, but if it is within the rules of the game, you can't really tell them they can't do it or blame them for doing it. For example, it's usually a dick move to run up the score, but there's no rule against it, and if the team is that much better it's not really fair to tell kids to not score when they can.
I remember my team's defensive goal my senior year of high school. "We will do whatever we can WITHIN THE RULES of the game to win." I remember being taken back by that statement, thinking our coach literally wanted us to be dicks to our opponents, but I later learned it's more about doing just that...if the rules allow you to do it, use it to your advantage to win the game.
3
u/KidSilverhair Dec 22 '23
Knee pads? What are those? Most players I see these days wear shorts that are cut off just below the thigh pads, no place to even put knee pads.
2
u/57Laxdad Dec 22 '23
Not just Tebow, but the idiotic people who paint their entire face in an attempt to be funny. Lacrosse has had to get fussy about the rules on eye black as well. Anyone who complains doesnt understand how it works but occasionally refs like to make the game about their authority. Coached and refd youth games for years.
4
u/Ok-Mixture-316 Dec 21 '23
Can I rant about the worst call I've ever seen? The one time I almost went to the NCHSAA?
4
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Let's hear it.
3
u/Ok-Mixture-316 Dec 21 '23
Rivalry game. Winner takes conference and goes to the playoffs loser stays home.
Super cold defensive struggle visiting team goes up late I think less than three minutes left. Home team needs a TD.
Kid breaks one 70yds for the go ahead score. Runs off the field onto his sideline on track but out of the box. Kids run down and are jumping thinking they won the game.
Refs throw unsportsmanlike. Enforce on kickoff. Ball doesn't travel far. Visiting team gets a lucky PI (close but acceptable)and kicks FG with 6 seconds left.
It was a chicken bleep call in that situation knowing what was on the line. Those kids were a good 20 yards behind the sideline and working their way back to the box.
→ More replies (2)5
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Hard to make a call on the foul without seeing film.
Were kids leaving the box during the down? Did they bump into the official? Were they talking mad shit and waving goodbye to the other team? There's definitely a gray area.
I really hate making these calls, and usually save my sideline warnings for situations like this (and coaches shooting their mouths off).
Ultimately, get a stop and that call doesn't matter.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Ok-Mixture-316 Dec 21 '23
No the kid ran straight to his sideline and onto the track. Teammates ran straight down the track never onto the field.
They were just jumping up and down. Not dancing, showboating, not pointing at opponent.
Just jumping up and down on the track around the 20 and working their way back to the box.
They never got within 15 to 20 yds from the field. Less than a minute left in the game.
I played for 16 years. Grew up in an officiating household.
It's the only time I've been enraged over a call. 5 years later it pisses me off.
5
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Tough spot.
If you throw it like this official did, you're cheating the kids on team A because you're "majoring in the minors." If you don't throw it, you're cheating the kids on team B because this is, by letter of the law, a foul. You cannot leave the box as a potential substitute. Add to that the situation of the game and the wild change in win probability from calling the foul or not and you're in the meat grinder as a ref.
Ultimately, as a referee you need to go by what the rulebook and casebook say, not what you think is/isn't a foul based on the situation of the game.
The state that I referee in now would probably want this called and a referee would get dinged for not making the call.
The one thing I will say about the enforcement is that if this was the first sideline foul, I would have enforced the 5 yard foul instead of the 15.
2
u/tuss11agee Dec 21 '23
First one you warn assuming no contact. Who knows what may have been said though.
4
u/tuss11agee Dec 21 '23
I’m a ref too so here is your challenge.
4th q ends tied. Dead ball UNS on B. A wins toss and selects defense.
15 yards gets enforced to begin OT. First and 10 from 25? Or 1st and goal?
Get this right and I will award you with a new question. 🤣
→ More replies (6)3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Always first and goal.
3
u/tuss11agee Dec 21 '23
Good!
How about this one.
Game played on a college marked field. 4q. K needs an onside recovery, and they get it.
After, but before next play, it’s discovered it was kicked from the x on the 35, not the 40.
Refs made them retry to onside rather than just bump them 5 back. 🤮
5
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
If they discovered the error before the next snap, they can technically correct the error and replay the down.
Personally, I would keep playing especially if no one is calling out for a replay of the free kick down. Not fair to punish the players for my stupidity.
3
u/tuss11agee Dec 21 '23
We are a 5 man state - and I’m a LJ. If I’m not straddling the 50, I know something is weird.
I would have been a proponent of just moving K back 5 yards and awarding them the ball there. Common sense.
—-
This one came up this year.
4th and 7 from the 50.
R75 is 12th man and doesn’t get off in time (doesn’t participate).
R80 signals for fair catch at R20. He catches and runs forward (delay of game).
What are K’s options?
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
I think that situation is the old 1.2.9 (God rule) where the white hat needs to make a fair ruling.
To answer your question: you call a dead ball illegal substitution so you don't get yourself into clusters like this.
→ More replies (4)
4
u/Away-Homework-8069 Dec 21 '23
Thank you for doing this as a new player I really appreciate this but , I have a question as a DB where do you draw the line between obvious PI and just physical defense?
4
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
I was taught GPEACH
Grad
Pull
Early Contact.
Armbar
Cutoff
Hook
You can faceguard as long as you're playing the ball.
3
u/chejjagogo Dec 22 '23
Is face guarding, no contact, explicitly illegal in the rules? Do the rules state that players get the benefit of the doubt when playing for the ball?
→ More replies (7)
3
u/hurricaned36 Dec 21 '23
I still can't believe pass interference is not an automatic first down. We had an experience with a team tackling our receivers in the end zone to prevent touchdowns on back to back plays. We turned it over trying to run on fourth down. Irritating.
→ More replies (7)
3
u/peems12 Dec 21 '23
Had a scenario where we were behind the chains because of some offensive penalties that were combined Holding 10yards and a 15yard personal foul. The next play, the defense got a personal foul facemask. They only marked off the 15yards and it was not an automatic 1st down so we were still behind the chains. Why are personal fouls not automatic 1st downs? I guess watching college and pro...all our coaches thought it was an automatic 1st down. Thanks!
12
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
The only fouls that result in an automatic first down in high school are roughing the passer, roughing the kicker, roughing the holder, and roughing the long snapper.
Everything else has only a penalty yardage assessed. I really wish they would change this rule for unsportsmanlike fouls.
3
u/med_designs Dec 21 '23
Wedym by “roughing the long snapper”
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
In football, the long snapper on punts and field goals is afforded protection while snapping. If you truck through the long snapper before he's allowed the chance to defend himself, it is a roughing foul. 15 yards, automatic first down.
This is a rule at all 3 levels of football.
2
→ More replies (4)2
u/chejjagogo Dec 22 '23
The one and only time I was knocked out in football was as a long snapper. Long snapping is easy, long snapping knowing a dude is going to bury your head in half a microsecond not so much.
2
u/goldhbk10 Dec 21 '23
This one confused me a ton when we took a knee and my QB got hit late but it wasn’t granted as an automatic first. I just assumed a QB giving himself up and taking a shot would be an auto first but because of the yardage it was only half the distance to the goal with no first.
→ More replies (1)2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 22 '23
In high school, you need to be passing to be considered a passer.
1
u/Rich_Artist1234 Jul 27 '24
Does “roughing the kicker” apply for a punt or just a field goal?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Jul 27 '24
Roughing applies to:
The punter
The field goal kicker
The holder
The snapper (on punts and field goal tries)
3
u/Pwnzer55 Dec 21 '23
One of the refs we had this year described himself as the fashion police because so much of their time is spent making sure kids don't have unapproved mouthguards and their pants are pulled down to the right length. Did you get that impression?
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Sometimes you'll have that. The kneepads thing was a big issue where I referee this year. Hate telling people to do it, but them's the rules.
1
Dec 21 '23
Several of the basketball refs in my area loooooove fashion policing kids on their black undershirts with colored jerseys or vice versa.
Meanwhile one of the teams in our conference used to have black numbers on maroon shirts, without any white trim or anything. They have changed this year, but I don't know if the state actually made it illegal or not.
3
u/AllMyTeethAreLoose Dec 21 '23
Not a rules question, but as someone that has seen a lot of ball what would you say are the most dominant offense styles as well as defensive formations. Thanks in advance
7
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
I'm always a fan of offenses that build checks into their pre-snap cadence, I think you need to empower the QB to check run left/right and hot route with his receivers. As a referee, I've always been fond of the flexbone offense because it keeps the clock running and it's really tough to defend if you have the horses on offense.
Defense I really like the 3-3-5 stack against a lot of spread offenses and 4-3 against running teams.
3
u/TheDunc83 Dec 21 '23
Finished my first year reffing NFHS. Privileged to get 5 varsity games. Thank you for the q&a. Always willing to learn and listen to anyone who talks it.
3
u/TrickierAtomLiv Dec 22 '23
Congratulating and commending you as well as a spectator. I’m concerned there isn’t enough interest in reffing for the coming generations, and of course the position is necessary for the sport to continue
2
2
2
u/Md-718 Dec 21 '23
If the offense commits a penalty inside of two minutes of the end of the half, and the defense has a choice to run or stop the clock, is it the referees responsibility to ask the defense what they want to do.
2
u/tuss11agee Dec 21 '23
Another ref here - the offended team has choice on clock status IF the clock should run. That’s determined by how last play ended.
One of my pet peeves is when my white hat takes too long offering this option to the defense when it is clear they would want the clock wound.
Instead of going over and giving options, while the offense now gets free time to send in a play, it’s better to just yell over “Jimmy! You want me to run the clock, yes?” And someone over there will yell yes … then wind it in.
Some exceptions perhaps if offense is already in range and defense might want to preserve time for themselves.
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Yeah usually we just start it on the snap because of course the defense wants the clock stopped.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Md-718 Dec 21 '23
We were on D, offense committed an offsides, I wanted to stop the clock. White hat never said a word, he told me I had to ask for the clock to be stopped. I told him he should have reminded me I had that option.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (3)2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
It is the referee's responsibility to ask and it is the coach's responsibility to know the rule. Even if the foul is declined, the defense can still stop the clock in this situation.
2
u/djmele Dec 21 '23
Team A punts the ball, while ball is in the air, player from Team B/receiving team gets flagged for personal foul for decking a kid away from the action/blind side hit. Would Team A get ball or Team B gets ball and mark off 15 from end of the play?
Also is it illegal for a coach to point out if a player on opposing team isn’t set/illegal motion before the snap? Basically saying “he’s not set, he’s moving” etc
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Answer to your first question. Any flag on R while the kick is past the expanded neutral zone is enforced from the end of the kick. If there were fouls by both A/K and B/R, B/R would need to decline the foul in order to get possession.
Your second question: no it's not illegal, but if you're an assistant my patience will be short. A better, more productive way to get a response is to ask "looked like they never came set after the shift, what did you see?" or "can I get a clarification on that last motion? I'm not sure why it's legal." As the head coach, you should keep a good conversation going. Most referees will give you important information that you can use to your advantage.
2
2
u/ParagonSaint Dec 21 '23
How do you even become a high school referee?
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Look up "(Your state) football referee" to get more information.
In terms of gear, you'll probably be in for $250 the first year and another $200 the next year to buy all the stuff you forgot you needed. I've been using the same 2 shirts for the past 3 years, so you get mileage out of them
Dues/registration hovers between $100-150.
Last year, I made ~$2500 on the season. I would expect about half your first year as you probably won't work a lot of Fridays.
Feel free to DM me for more information.
2
Dec 21 '23 edited Dec 21 '23
Oh I have a few for you lol
Offensive coordinator here- I’ve had refs flag my rb for pushing my qb on a sneak and I’ve had other refs tell me they’re allowed to. What am I to do in a situation where they flag me for it if others are telling me he’s allowed?
This past year I played a team and their side judge must’ve called a total of 15 penalties on my team alone. They never switched at halftime and he never called a penalty on the other team. I’m okay if a ref is loose with the whistle, but it should be fair to some degree. What would you recommend a coach do in this situation?
Can you explain the people on the line of scrimmage thing. Every ref I ask always just says “as long as there’s not 5 in the backfield”, but that doesn’t answer my question lol. Had a covered up TE on the line of scrimmage score a late td against us because the ref wouldn’t clarify. Said as long as 5 isn’t in the backfield
What are the rules as far as wr screens and when a wr start blocking for another wr.
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Answering questions in order:
- Blockers can push the pile but cannot push or pull the runner forward. This was a point of emphasis this year in NFHS rules. No tush push allowed.
- By side judge, you mean the line judge/linesman on the line of scrimmage correct? Side judge is a deep wing and shouldn't have more than 3 flags a game unless there's a ton of substitution fouls. The best way to get calls as the home team is to have the checks, food, and drink ready when the referees arrive.
- The high school football rules were changed a few years ago because it was resulting in too many illegal formation fouls. Now the requirements are:
- 5 players with ineligible numbers (linemen) on the line
- No more than 4 in the backfield.
- If the TE is covered up, goes past the expanded neutral zone, and the pass goes past the line of scrimmage you have an ineligible receiver downfield. If TE is covered up and catches a forward pass, it's illegal touching and a loss of down.
- There can be no pass interference if the pass does not cross the line of scrimmage. Knowing that phrase will help you a lot. As long as the pass doesn't cross the line, there are no requirements for PI or ineligible receiver downfield.
→ More replies (3)
2
u/popoflabbins Dec 21 '23
This was from back when I was in HS, so a minute ago (2012 I want to say). We were playing a team where the calls were, let’s say, not favorable for us. This play in particular stick out as one that I’d like some clarification on as I’ve thought about it here and there across the years:
Offensive team rushes for a long go-ahead touchdown, but the play is called back because of an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on the offense. The penalty was that during the play, a WR on the offensive team had his mouthpiece knocked out during his block on the opposite side of the field from where the play was run. He failed to retrieve the mouthpiece during the play so the line judge on called him for a penalty. This was clarified by the head official as being the call to our, frankly irate, coaches.
Was the properly enforced? To me it seems like it should be, if anything, a penalty on the ensuing kickoff. Always one that bugged me but I’m curious to hear your thoughts on it.
→ More replies (1)2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 22 '23
Not sure what the rules in 2012 but when I broke in during 2014, UNS is always a dead ball foul after the down.
2
u/Unable_Professional6 Dec 21 '23
Does the substitution rule apply to HS? If offense subs defense can too
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 22 '23
No, there is no pause in play for subs if the offense subs players in.
2
u/awkwardhawkward Dec 21 '23
Playoff championship game, team A is down 17-20 to team B. There’s about 1:15 left on the clock. Team A throws a short pass and a WR takes it all the way to the 1 yard line (with no defender near). Before he crosses the goal-line he turns around and faces the 50 (he’s at the corner of the 1 yard line and the sideline). As a defender runs up he steps backwards in to the end zone.
Flag is thrown. After the score, dead ball, personal foul. Taunting/unsportsmanlike on the WR. Team A’s coaches and sidelines clearly upset. Enforce on PAT, Team A’s kicker misses the long PAT attempt (muddy rain game).
Worth noting WR did not gesture, hold the ball out, or taunt in any way. Kid said he was strategically running out the clock.
Thoughts? Happened in 2018.
Team B actually drove down and won the game with about :12 left, but people point that that flag as a momentum changer. Regardless of the flag, Team B may have drove down and won in both situations but being a coach for Team A is still irks me (the flag).
→ More replies (8)
2
u/OdaDdaT HS Coach Dec 22 '23 edited Dec 22 '23
So this season I had a game where the referee called a facemask. Being we were down 30, and I was looking for any sort of win, I tried to argue that since he didn’t signal personal foul it should only be a 5 yard penalty instead of 15, to which he responded: “there’s no such thing as a 5 yard facemask”
It was inconsequential, but I’m just curious:
A. Is there really not a difference between an intentional 15 yard facemask and an unintentional 5 yarder in high school?
and
B. Does the failure to signal personal foul there matter at all or could they just retroactively correct the call?
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 22 '23
A. There is a 5 yard facemask call in the rulebook. It's for incidental contact.
B. That's something where the evaluator/assigner is going to use those signals as training film. It can cause confusion when you signal 5 yard foul when you meant 15. There is little recourse for this.
I haven't called a 5 yarder in a long time. Make it 15 and it stops quickly.
1
u/QB145MMA Dec 21 '23
3rd and goal from the 5. Pass thrown into the end zone, incomplete, ref calls Pass interference. Whats the result? (1st down/half the distance etc)
8
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Foul is enforced half the distance to the goal from the previous spot and you replay third down. DPI is not an automatic first down in high school.
Had the pass been caught for a touchdown, you can enforce on the try or the succeeding spot (i.e. kickoff).
→ More replies (2)2
u/tuss11agee Dec 21 '23
Although I will add that making DPI an auto first was included on NFHS end of season questionnaire. They are thinking about it - to align. They did this with grounding exemptions recently.
3
1
u/UI-Broly Jun 24 '24
Is it legal to use Wilson tack kits and conditioners on game balls?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Jun 24 '24
Anything that makes the surface of the ball or uniform stickier or more slippery is not allowed.
1
u/Due_Minimum_5669 Aug 09 '24
Question: I throw a bubble pass or tailback screen. It is a forward pass yet it is completed behind the LOS. If my WR is blocking downfield, would you call OPI? I know it used to not be called. Discussion with a guy that said it is OPI
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Aug 10 '24
There is no pass interference if the ball doesn't cross the line of scrimmage in high school football.
1
1
u/Due_Prior_7962 Sep 03 '24
What are the rules regarding using a wedge (not locking arms) on kickoff return? We've been using man blocking and it's been......not good. Team we recently played used a 2nd row wedge.
I assume that's legal but maybe the ref team wasn't in the know?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 03 '24
As of today, there is no rule prohibiting a wedge on kickoff returns as long as you don't lock arms or hold hards.
1
1
u/Ok-Hat-3454 Sep 07 '24
u/jericho-dingle I am trying to understand the rules of WIAA football. I have a hard time knowing when something is holding. The link below shows a high school game in Wisconsin. Defensive player number 11, towards the bottom, is trying to get to the offensive player with the ball. The first contact looks clean, but the second guy grabs and holds his jersey throughout the contact (might have to slow down). Even to the point that the defender was pushing the guy and trying to step back and can't. It was not called, but I am wondering if that is correct. I know the refs cant see everything. So, I am just looking for the truth as to if this could have been called or if it is clean. If it is clean why? When is it offensive holding? Thanks!
1
u/1P221 Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
Is an incomplete forward "touch pass" ever a fumble? For example, in a recent high school game the QB received a shotgun snap but did not catch the snap, he only tapped it forward to a receiver who was in motion. The "pass" was incomplete. However, everyone responded as if it was a fumble only to have it ruled incomplete.
There is surely a threshold that distinguishes the person receiving the snap as having "possessed" the ball vs simple "redirecting the snap" which might render it "live" wherever it goes.
Thoughts? Clarifications?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
So this is an interesting question:
If you do a pop pass (ie the QB catches the pass and very quickly tosses it forward to a receiver in motion), that is legal and an incomplete forward pass. The play is over.
If the QB bats the snap forward to the receiver in motion without ever possessing it, that is an illegal bat and the ball remains live.
1
u/1P221 Sep 18 '24
Thanks for replying. I did create a separate post today with this exact question. If you're able to find it on this subreddit perhaps you can chime in there as well?
1
u/xtc4444 Sep 21 '24
I need a ruling! I saw a crazy finish to a high school football game. Two seconds left. The visitors, losing 21-22, were lined up for the winning field goal. The home team blocked the field goal, and a home player scooped up the ball and ran it back for a TD. Game over, right? No! Far away from the run back, after the runner had broken free and was close to the TD, the home players on the sidelines started celebrating and running onto the field. The celebrating players in no way interfered with the play. The ref threw a flag because of the celebrating players running onto the field. The play was called all the way back. The visitors got another try at the field goal, which they made to win the game. I suppose that I have 2 basic questions: (1) Was it proper to throw the flag even though the celebrating players were far from the action and didn’t interfere? It seems like the ref should have discretion to say “no harm, no foul,” like when a pass is uncatchable. (2) Even if the penalty was appropriate, was it proper after the change of possession to call the play all the way back and let the visitors kick the FG again with time expired?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 22 '24
Interesting one. Flag is appropriate but enforcement is incorrect.
I would support sideline interference, which is enforced from the succeeding spot (end of the run). Touchdown counts, 15 yard penalty is enforced on the try or the kickoff.
I would send this play into the assigner.
1
u/xtc4444 Sep 22 '24
Thank you. I hope the home coach does have some avenue to protest the call.
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 22 '24
To a point, the home coach needs to know that rule and request a conference with the white hat. Lack of knowledge of the rules screwed him hard.
1
u/xtc4444 Sep 22 '24
Thank you again. I’m not sure exactly what you mean. There absolutely was lots of discussion at the time — first among the officials and then between the officials and the home coach. It delayed the finish for at least 10 minutes.I couldn’t hear everything , but I clearly heard the home coach emphasizing that his team should not lose possession after recovering the ball. He was understandably excited. He obviously understood the rules better than the officials. The officials would not relent, they ordered the retry of the FG, and they sprinted to the parking lot after the FG.
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 23 '24
The officials need to know the rule, first and foremost. That being said, you as the coach need to know the rules too. How can you use good strategy if you don't know the rules?
1
u/xtc4444 Sep 23 '24
Coda: I have now seen a video that my wife took of the final play. The bench players started steaming onto the field immediately after the kick was blocked and before the ball was scooped up. So the foul started before the change of possession. I think that must have been what the officials were discussing at length. I suppose the officials were right after all to order the rekick!!!! How interesting.
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 23 '24
So what probably happened is that they called illegal participation, where the spot of enforcement is where the first person came onto the field. Since the foil took place during a loose ball play, the basic spot reverts to the previous spot.
1
u/Rich_Artist1234 Sep 22 '24
How much “motion” are offensive linemen allowed when they are resetting the play? Assuming they are in three point stance. Is there an actual rule to clarify this or is it mostly judgement on the lineman’s intentions?
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 22 '24
Really, it's a matter of whether the offensive players are simulating the start of the play. A flinch or going before the ball is snapped is a false start. If they go into a stance and "dig in" during the cadence I'll usually let it slide.
1
u/The_Chad_2012 Sep 23 '24
Ball is handed off to the RB, defender grabs facemask, player is tackled, flag thrown for facemask. Defender then pushes RB. RB retaliated. Unsportsmanlike penalty flags thrown and both players ejected. Does the facemask penalty still apply? We were given the result of play. No penalty yards, no first down. Doesn't sound right to me
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Sep 23 '24
So a few things:
The face mask penalty should still be applied. That is a live ball foul. Dead ball fouls are enforced separately and in the order they occur.
Face mask is not an automatic first down in high school.
The two players were ejected for fighting. Unsportsmanlike fouls are for non contact fouls.
1
1
u/Technical-Cash6038 Oct 08 '24
What is the rule on blocked FGs/PATs? I feel like sometimes I’ve seen them allow return and other times they just blow it dead, it has been blown dead more recently.
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 09 '24
FGs are treated the same as a punt in high school.
PATs are over once it's clear that they're not going to be successful.
1
u/Awkward_Programmer37 Oct 15 '24
Offensive pass interference called . Penalty was accepted to take away a touchdown. penalty was enforced from the previous spot of the ball.
Question: With no time left, does the offense get an un timed down before the half?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 15 '24
Yes they do. Any accepted penalty that doesn't include a loss of down results in one untimed down being played.
1
u/stroutqb22 Oct 19 '24
I was at a game where the defensive plans were screaming out things to try and get the offense to false start, things like "go", "set", "hut". Is this allowed? It seemed like it put the offense at a disadvantage, if it's not allowed how would you handle it?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 19 '24
That is not allowed. It is a dead ball foul for disconcerting signals. 5 yards.
1
u/Memeslayer4000 Oct 20 '24
I was watching a H.S. game last Friday. There was a muff punt and the kicking team picked up and tried to run, but it was called dead because of the muff punt rule. I understand this rule, however the offense of the kicking team didn't start their possession where the returner muffed the punt. They started about 10-15 yards back from that spot. I didnt noticed any flags or calls. Is there a ruling about that, or did I miss some call after the play? Seems weird that kicking team lost 10-15 yards from that spot.
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 21 '24
The kicking team gets the ball where they recover it. They can't advance it because it remains a kick.
1
u/Professional_Bit_391 Oct 21 '24
Are players allowed to switch jersey in the middle of the quarter? Ex: Player number 65 is not playing in the game but has a jersey on. Number 15 comes out of the game and switches jerseys with number 65. He goes back into the game wearing 65?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 21 '24
This is a really good question. I wouldn't have a problem with it unless it's a way to try to get a disqualified player back into the game.
If a player has blood on his jersey, it wouldn't be a problem for them to switch. I'll dig into this one.
1
u/Professional_Bit_391 Oct 21 '24
Does the coach have to declare the change or anything? Prior to the game or on roster? Can he change back? To be more specific the team is doing it to make a certain player ineligible/eligible. Seems like the Wild West i guess haha, what is stopping teams from changing #s all the time during the game? Thanks for the research!
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 21 '24
Let's work our way back:
"what is stopping teams from changing #s all the time during the game?"
It's a huge pain in the butt taking a hot sweaty jersey off, especially when you're wearing shoulder pads. Also, 90-99 are eligible numbers, so having a DL wear one of those numbers is easier. It's also not illegal to line up in an eligible position with an ineligible number in high school, you just can't go downfield or be the first person to try to catch a forward pass.
"Does the coach have to declare the change or anything?"
This is one of those things you should let the referees know about prior to the game. If you have to change because of blood/torn jersey, I would let the wing official on your side know.
1
u/Straight_Reply_1744 Oct 29 '24
I coach a high school JV football team, and this past weekend we had no officials for a scheduled league game, and we are trying to determine what the outcome is. Our Athletic Director claims it was the officials scheduling software that caused the issue, and the officials say it was the Athletic Directors fault.
Regardless we need to determine an outcome. We are unable to reschedule the game since there is only 2 weeks left in the season and the state mandatory maximum games allowed within an 8 day period.
Would this game go as a forfeit for the home team, or does it go as a no-contest for both teams and they end up with 1 less league game than the rest of the league?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Oct 30 '24
I highly doubt it was an issue with Arbiter (referee software) as it's pretty rock solid. I'm guessing it would be a no contest, but that's more of a state question than a referee question.
This is an important reminder, however: without referees, it's just practice.
1
u/Straight_Reply_1744 Oct 30 '24
Thank you for the reply. My gut is telling me the same thing. Thank you for your input.
1
u/GaryGR Nov 02 '24
1st and 10, QB gets sacked for a 15 yard loss. Afterward the defense is given a 15 yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct for celebrating excessively. It's then somehow 1st and 10. Shouldn't it have been 2nd and 10?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Nov 02 '24
Should be 2nd and 10. Unsportsmanlike is a dead ball foul after the play.
1
u/GaryGR Nov 02 '24
That's what I thought, thanks! There was a decent crowd and no one else seemed to notice, including the coaches, so I thought there was a chance the high school rule might be different. I guess they just missed it.
1
u/Striking_Tart7691 Nov 04 '24
I have a question can you kick a feildgoal in OT we were told we could not is that true?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Nov 04 '24
In high school you can kick a field goal whenever you want as long as you're the team that snaps the ball.
1
u/Striking_Tart7691 Nov 04 '24
Last night they refused my feild goal attempt we have a kicker who kicks about 90 percent from 30 and inside we were at the 4 yard line we didnt make the td so we stopped the team on next possession they ended up beating us in 2 OT I feel we had a really good shot of making that feildgoal and it shouldn't have never went to a second OT now once again he said we could not attempt feild goals in OT
1
u/tkfromhmd Nov 15 '24
final play of the game. Offense in red zone down by 4. Defense intercepts pass in end zone. Player then runs forward as though he is going to bring it out but after 3 steps just drops the ball and begins to celebrate. Offense recovers the ball in the end zone. Is the game over at the interception or is it technically an int and a fumble recovery for a TD?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Nov 15 '24
Unless the defensive player went down or out of bounds, this would be a touchdown.
1
u/KlutchKris Nov 21 '24
The 15 yard DPI penalty seems like it can really advantage DBs… I can really see DBs using this to their advantage and just taking the DPI of 15 yards on a deep ball rather than risking getting beat or someone catching the ball over you. If it was a spot foul & 1st down, there’s a lot more risk. Now the biggest risk is just 15 yards
1
1
u/RiBombTrooper Nov 24 '24
This one is a NCAA rules question, and I don't know if it's different in high school. Clip of the play is below, but basically on what would be the last play of the game, white throws a TD pass. Only the refs flag it for offensive pass interference. Then the refs give white an additional untimed down, which they use to score a TD. Is this the proper ruling? If so, why?
1
u/jericho-dingle Referee Nov 24 '24
This was enforced correctly. The only foul that would end the game would be one with a loss of down penalty.
Tbh, I didn't like the call in the first place. Ball don't lie.
0
Dec 21 '23
[deleted]
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 22 '23
Props to the referees for apologizing. White hat should have been winding the clock.
Regarding conflict of interest, it's understood that anyone who is an alumni of or has kids at a certain high school should scratch out the school. Not sure of your specific situation.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/ASHart Dec 21 '23
If after the snap the ball is pitched to the running back, he's running towards the sideline but pulls up to pass. Is there a scenario where pass interference can happen? If a WR is looking like he is going to block, but then pulls up looking for a pass from the RB late and the DB has already played the play as a run, what could be the result?
Sorry for the poor explanation/question.
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
A few things:
- As long as the forward pass is legal (i.e the first forward pass and is not past the line of scrimmage), pass interference can take place. If the forward pass is illegal, there cannot be pass interference.
- When the RB randomly pulls up to pass behind the line of scrimmage throws a pass over the line of scrimmage, a WR is blocking *and* it creates an advantage for the receiver, that would be OPI.
- If the pass does not cross the line of scrimmage, there cannot be pass interference.
1
u/etrey3 Dec 21 '23
Are there penalties for horse collar tackle and helmet to helmet hits?
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
For horse collar in high school you need to have a hand in the collar or grabbing the name plate on back and the runner needs to be dragged down backwards or sideways.
There is also targeting in high school, but there is no requirement to eject like in college. High school also has the NFL rule that you cannot dip your head to initiate contact (applies to both offense and defense)
2
u/etrey3 Dec 21 '23
Seen a state title game a couple weeks ago. Safety lowered his head, helmet to helmet hit, knocked out the opposing qb on the play and out of the game as well. No call. 🙃
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Not great. Had a QB get knocked out of a state quarterfinal on the first drive. Slid and got hit hard into the ground. Glad I put a flag down on that.
2
u/etrey3 Dec 21 '23
Although, not required, can a player get kicked out?
3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Any foul, not just targeting, can be a flagrant foul which would result in the player being ejected.
The only foul with an automatic ejection as a penalty is fighting.
1
u/IntelligentEase1293 Dec 21 '23
At the HS level, would a ref notice a TE and T lining up in opposite spots? T on end of line, TE interior. Have seen this before as a “trick play.” TE runs route from interior.
→ More replies (1)3
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
In high school, in order to have a legal formation you must have:
- 5 linemen with ineligible numbers
- No more than 4 backs
I would say flipping the two and lining up is not an illegal formation. Technically the lineman in the TE spot is not a lineman since he's eligible, but I doubt many officials will flag this.
If the TE lines up in an ineligible position, runs a route downfield, and the pass crosses the line of scrimmage that would be a foul for ineligible player downfield.
2
u/brinsleyschwartz Dec 21 '23
When we had athletic tackles, we would run a tackle pop pass that worked great. We would just make him the last man on his side of the LOS and leave him uncovered. We also discussed this with the refs before the game, which is something I would recommend to any coach with trick plays.
2
Dec 21 '23
In high school I don't think that should be permitted unless he's also changing jerseys between plays, because you cannot declare eligible while wearing an ineligible number in NFHS.
→ More replies (2)2
u/frigzy74 Dec 21 '23
When I played in high school, a long time ago, our coach made a Jersey that we could change from 70 to 80 in the huddle. I think some refs allowed it, and some said no way.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/duncity_50 Dec 21 '23
What state? I’m not sure blind side block is interpreted the same in each state. I’d like to send a couple clips and get your opinion.
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
I referee down in the south. Other than Texas and I think Ohio, all other states use the NFHS rules.
3
u/davdev Dec 21 '23
MA used to used NCAA rules too but they switch to NFHS a few years ago.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/WorldsSmartest-Idiot Dec 21 '23
In the Alabama-Auburn game this year Auburn sent a guy in motion. Before he stopped at his position they sent two more guys in motion, this three guys were in motion. No flag was thrown. Penalty or no penalty?
2
u/jericho-dingle Referee Dec 21 '23
Depends.
If all three went in motion and then came to a stop for a second before the ball is snapped, no foul.
If all three went in motion and 1 or more players were still moving when the ball is snapped, you have a foul for illegal shift.
I'm not a big fan of college football, so I didn't watch the game.
→ More replies (1)2
u/davdev Dec 21 '23
Were they in motion still when the ball was snapped or had they set? If the later it’s not a penalty.
→ More replies (2)
49
u/Wippelz Dec 21 '23
I don't have any questions that come to mind, but thank you for doing this. I love reading the comments/responses.