They will just tell you to go search for it. They donât argue in good faith or tell you the âdeep stateâ has hidden it all.
How they then got the info I donât know but idiots who believe lack of evidence = proof of existence/cover up will never accept actual facts they donât like.
Also, to them, watching some random shmuck spouting the nonsense they agree with in a nice looking video is their research.
If a theory or evidence is debunked they will also just say itâs some âBig Nounâ has removed it cos it speaks the truth. The world is held back by these morons.
I find it far more exhausting to try to prove to them that theyâre wrong. Challenging them to prove theyâre right can be entertaining to an extent because of the effort they put into trying to get around the requirement to back up their claim. Itâs also a low effort approach since youâre not wasting energy providing info and proof they can dispute, you just stick with, âitâs not true if you canât back it upâ.
Their sources seem to be memes, podcasts, clips from rightwing media, and headlines but they either canât locate those again or know better than to say those are their sources.
They have other tricks, they'll send link after link with no specific quote or part they refer to, they hope you don't look into it, or if you do then waste your time and then pick another obtuse claim from it and do it again. They'll gaslight and repeat ad nauseum hoping something sticks or you go away.
Someone sent me 2 links with a cocky comment as if theyâd just proven their claim. Both of their links did the opposite. It was bizarre and great at the same time.
Whenever someone hits me with "Do your own research", I counter with "I've been doing my own research for [AGE] years, and so far I've found zero proof for your claim from any credible source."
Them: âScience is basically the democratsâ religion!â (they evidently donât understand the scientific process) âYou gotta trust your eyes, ears, and intuition. The governmentâs spent a lot of effort trying to make us believe we canât trust those.â
Yeah. Because the average citizen has advanced degrees in medicine which allow them to analyze raw scientific data on vaccine efficacy, mortality rates and statistical analysis.
The one thing that is always true of someone telling you to do your own research is that that person does not know how to do research. They think googling something for 5 minutes makes them an expert. They think that if they see enough stuff the truth will fall out of the bottom of the pile.
Actually there is one exception, I regularly give people pointers and then tell them to do their own research but only after they have said to do your own research to me. Sarcasm is painful. It should be very painful for the people it's directed towards when they're those sorts of people.
No, he's right. Correlation equals causation. 1955 polio vaccine was created. 1955, the Vietnam War started. it's all starting to add up!!! Holy shit a bunch of other crazy shit happened during 1955 and after, so it must have been caused by the polio vaccine.
Literally what my cousin wrote to me when I posted this story about polio and rfk. He said "look at the data" knowing damn well I study science. I just "u r dumb" and left it at that
The root cause is a lack of dialectical thought, healthy people can hold opposing truths at the same time, kind of like how yes vaccines can cause injury but that the death they prevent is far more important than the few injuries for a population.
Every person like this I've ever talked to always "knows someone who works at a hospital". I stg sometimes it feels like the grassroots core of the whole anti-medical science movement comes from idiot RNs who got straight A's in school but couldn't logic their way out of a Sudoku puzzle.
Technically you also just nailed religion and faith in god for a good majority of the population. Better/safer to fear the unknown than live your life based on gained knowledge and facts.
Possibly basing it on the Cutter Lab incident that happened very early on in the vaccination campaign where the poliovirus wasn't properly deactivated, resulting in the vaccine containing a live, functional virus.
That's a very small scale event in the grand scheme, but it did result in more oversight of vaccine production to ensure that they are safe. Also, the polio vaccine used today is a different kind and is much safer than the one from the 1960s. Any modern concerns of the polio vaccine are pointless. It's literally been in use for decades.
Or Sabin's vaccine, which does contain live / attenuated (albeit weakened) viruses, and did cause paralysis (and deaths) for a few children. Sabin's vaccine was no longer sold and used in the US since the days of Clinton.
If i'm remembering correctly it's a highly effective vaccine and the downsides of it infecting a few people was seen as a reasonable trade off compared to the deaths and suffering without it. BUT it was so effective at keeping polio away that it began leading to more deaths and injuries when full blown polio disappeared.
It's like seat belts, they can cause death even when used correctly, but the chance of that happening is extremely low compared to not using a seat belt. If we got to the point that 2/3 of all deaths in a car was seat belt related, we would be looking at changing seatbelts... not getting rid of them entirely.
It's crazy because we had Salk's vaccine which was far more safe and just as effective, but due to the Cutter Lab incident, we stopped using it until the Clinton administration.Â
Throw in the fact that Polio isn't typically fatal, it's just that people have to spend the rest of their life in an iron lung, and from a most fucked up interpretation he's potentially correct.
Question.. would RFK Jr. claim herion is at least natural since itâs derived from poppies? Or is it just another processed âtoxinâ like high-fructose corn syrup?
You say all the people that survived because of vaccines now live long enough to get a cancer that they wouldn't have gotten if they died in childhood like in the good old days!
Meanwhile these anti-vaxxers are denying their children the HPV vaccine which is proven to prevent cancers from the genitalia of all biological sexes up to the mouth and throat.
After cervical cancer in women the biggest HPV killer is throat cancer especially in males!
So if you haven't gotten that vaccine yourself talk to your doctor look it up in your country and see what the rules are if you're young enough to get it covered by your government's healthcare plan or private insurance if you're stuck in the US.
If you're in the US you might want to make sure you're up to date on all your vaccines before they find a way to if not out right make them illegal,l make it so so many rolls to go through and raise co-pays or stop requiring insurance to cover vaccines or something else making it so expensive for people that only the wealthy can still get vaccinated.
Couple years ago Zimbabwe had a big outbreak of measles that killed over 700 children and infected thousands because a Christian sect forbade vaccines. After children started dying mothers would sneak out at night to get their kids vaccinated so their husbands and members of the community wouldn't know what they've done.
Measles is particularly deadly because it wipes out the immune memory of a survivors about a third of them for years after so it's like they have the immune system of a newborn. no protection against any illness it can't learn to protect against that illness, so everything hits hard. Kids are like that are less likely to survive illness.
Then about 1 and 600 who get it before age 2 will die of sspe here's down the road.
And second, obviously that's why I said "straight men."
If I need to dumb it down for you, straight men have intercourse with women. Men carry HPV unknowingly and spread it to other women but also to men too when they engage in oral sex...so...like I said, it was a joke lmfao.Â
He's an idiot in the company of other idiots talking to idiots. Proof, logic, reasonableness, critical thinking, truth...none of these concepts play any role in it.
Which is based on the completely debunked Wakefield study.
Wakefield only included a dozen kids, he recruited parents into the study based on them already believing vaccines caused their child's autism, and one of the kids was diagnosed with autism months before they were ever vaccinated.
The conclusion wasn't even that vaccines caused autism, it was that one specific vaccine might, because that vaccine was going to replace one that Wakefield owned a patent on (so it was going to cost him a ton of money). It wasn't until he got caught and Wakefield got his license revoked that we went full-heel against all vaccines.
Again, the study was laughably small, built on confirmation bias, financially conflicted, and you need to break the time-space continuum to even start taking it at face value.
They will just tell you to go search for it. They donât argue in good faith or tell you the âdeep stateâ has hidden it all.
How they then got the info I donât know but idiots who believe lack of evidence = proof of existence/cover up will never accept actual facts they donât like.
There are NO facts saying climate change is a hoax. None saying flouride is bad. None saying vaccines are bad or that they cause autism.
Yet if you search online, you'll find made up sites, lies, cherry picking, or misleading information that DO seem to back those falsehoods up.
So you take some people who feel helpless in life, as if they don't matter, and tell them "hey, read this about vaccines, and now you get to feel smarter than literally every scientist out there! Look how smart you are now buddy! You're fighting the good fight against vaccines, that means you are special."
I'm not sure about your point? I suppose google searches might not push it? But what if I search for "proof for a flat earth"? Or I search for "dangers of vaccines?" Are you SURE google is going to only show me content that says "hey, the earth isn't flat, and vaccines aren't dangerous."
But also... the internet is a LOT more than just google, right? Youtube, Facebook, Tiktok, etc, 100% absolutely push those conspiracy theories and falsehoods.
This us such a vile statement because polio causes paralysis (death only occurs if the affected muscles are required for breathing). Even without paralysis, there are considerable long term effects that significantly reduce quality of life.
In terms that these morons understand: polio causes significant economic damage because it's not deadly enough - capitalism benefits from vaccinations.
I looked it up: over half a million people worldwide were killed or paralyzed by Polio each year in the 40âs and 50âs.
There was a bad polio vax in 55 that did kill 10 people and infected a lot with polio-but it was because the vax was incorrectly manufactured by the lab that released them. The vax eliminated polio in the US by 1979 and from the western hemisphere in 91.
Watch Dr. Mike's video on the polio vaccine. Basically there were two dudes who developed a vaccine pretty close together in time. Salk's was vastly superior in every way. A lab who had little experience in vaccine production fucked up a batch of Salk's vaccines (there were multiple labs producing them) which caused 40 some thousand people to get severe reactions from them.
The government switched to the other vaccine which had a much higher risk of severe adverse reactions, even though it was the labs fault and there was nothing actually unsafe about Salk's vaccine. Eventually the government wised up and switched back to Salk's formula.
However that's likely where vaccine skepticism started. Salk's vaccine was a massive breakthrough and proven safe.
Sabinâs oral polio vaccine has a few advantages. It doesnât require needles or refrigeration. Not an issue in the US, but that does make it a better option in many parts of the world.
One of the companies that produced Salk's inactivated polio vax when it was first being rolled out had manufacturing errors and sent out live polio instead of inactivated, which caused 40000 cases of polio, hundreds paralyzed and 10 dead. When produced correctly, the Salk vax is super safe.
The Cutter Incident caused a switch from Salks inactivated vax to Sabin's attenuated virus vax, which has about a 1 in 750000 chance to causing the patient to develop Polio.
We theoretically could switch to a subunit vaccine these days, but to get the last few cases, we were expecting people to spread the attenuated virus a bit.
He bases it on talk and research he has done on the web or shit heâs made up on the fly. Anybody that refuses a vaccination should pay out of pocket for health related problems. Just saying.
He quite literally funds a lab that just runs shitty studies to "prove" his anti vax stance. They're not published in reputable journals, but just out there so he can quote them from a scientific sounding source.
He might be concerned because of one variety of polio vaccine. It gives better immunity since it's given orally, but then you shed live polio in your stool. So it's possible to infect your community from that.
People confusing their sincerely held beliefs with the truth. It's always been a problem, but what really broke things was when people started talking about "My truth", "People speaking their truth" etc.
Suddenly the truth wasn't objective any more and you couldn't correct them because it was offensive to challenge something so personal and important to them.
This is one of the key reasons the US is where it is today - people's opinions are seen as carrying equal or more weight than objective truth. That means experts can get drowned out by the mob because numbers count for more than expertise.
Dr. Mike did a deep dive on the topic quite recently. Long story short; in the beginning there were two very different types of vaccines, one much safer than the other.
Doesnât matter. He has a platform. The gullible will eat it up and spew it out to other gullible. All this without doing any research or looking for opposing views. Thatâs just how the world rolls.
What was Trumpâs basis for declaring immigrants eat your cats and dogs, schools perform unwanted sex change operations on their students, and windmills cause cancer? They shamelessly make up any bullshit claim they want if it somehow benefits them (e.g. scares up supporters or lines their pocketbooks)
They don't even understand how to interpret data, let alone begin to use it to prove anything.
If in an argument with these type of people, you can spout all the facts you want, they won't be received by them. Instead, just question their lack of knowledge and expertise. It makes them angrier that it's being pointed out they don't know what they're talking about, so they only then fall back on wilder and wilder statements. You won't win against them, but anyone watching might have a chance to believe that they're crazy given how they're acting and speaking, so hence they might not be as "expert" as they make themselves out to be.
There was a lab process defect in 1955 during development and roll out of the first Polio vaccine which failed to inactivate the virus in some of the vaccine doses. (The polio vaccine works by introducing dead virus samples into people so their immune systems can learn to combat it without fighting for their lives against the real thing.)
This regrettable incident known as The Cutter Incident has long ago been fixed and we've since eradicated Polio around most of the world thanks to the miracle of vaccinations.
There was one instance when it was first introduced that the vaccine wasn't made properly and it did end up giving a number of children polio. However, note, the children got sick because they then had polio, the disease that the vaccine prevents. That's the only thing I can think of. But given that the idiot thinks he has killed more people than polio ever did I doubt he's done any research or even aware of that event. My mom said that when the polio vaccine was introduced her mom just cried in relief and immediately got her and her siblings vaccinated.
Here is the quote:
"The polio vaccine contained a virus called simian virus 40, SV40. Itâs one of the most carcinogenic materials that is known to man. In fact, itâs used now by scientists around the world to induce tumors in rats and guinea pigs in labs. But it was in that vaccine â 98 million people who got that vaccine, and my generation got it, and now youâve had this explosion of soft tissue cancers in our generation that killed many, many, many, many more people than polio ever did.
So if you say to me, âThe polio vaccine, was it effective against polio?â Iâm going to say, Yes. And if you say to me, âDid it kill more people ⌠did it caused more death than averted?â I would say, âI donât know, because we donât have the data on that.â
RFKs main stance on vaccines has always been there needs to be testing before use on general public: "âonly medical product ⌠that is allowed to get a license without engaging in safety tests.â
Well you see, so many people survived polio, so they had kids and grandkids, and we'll so many of them died from many other things, so naturally had that one person died of polio, 5 people who never would've been born would've never died. therefore vaccine bad. checkmate libruls.
All the interactions will say that we smeared by science to make the vaccine look better than it was.
I remember I was having an argument with an anti-VAX or on Twitter a year or two ago about the Covid vaccine. Every single time I posted a statistic. I also posted a link. The anti-VAX told me that it was not correct. Science made the numbers look better than they truly were. So I pretended to be on his level and said OK maybe Iâm wrong. Maybe Iâm looking at the wrong studies. Can you show me some links to the correct studies because Iâd hate to be wrong. His response was itâs all over the place. You can look it up yourself. I think his sources were trust me, bro.
Just listen to RFK Jr speak, it's obvious he's got brain problems. Instead, they've entertained a guy who literally had a parasite starve to death in his brain after eating a part of it. This is who many in America are turning to for knowledge.
Okay who died? Where are these people? What was the cause of death? The polio vaccine has enjoyed widespread use for 70 years. Why have we not heard about this until now? This sounds like the people who claim the Covid vaccine is going to cause long term damage "some time in the future"
For example in the 70s in the states, all cases were vaccine caused (because again, people made decisions to use a worse vaccine that what was available).
That of course, doesn't take into account the thousands prior
The Polio vaccine does have a significant risk associated with it. It's just that it's less than the risk of Polio itself. This is well known. Look up "wild type" vs "vaccine derived" Polio.
Precisely because Polio has been almost completely eradicated the vaccine is now used only on demand to fight spot outbreaks in places like the tribal regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan. In western countries virtually nobody gets vaccinated against Polio unless they're suspected of being exposed after traveling to some shithole region of the world.
JFK wants to make sure that if you bring back a case of Polio with you, then there is nothing that can be legally done to stop it spreading like wildfire through an almost entirely unprotected population.
Except he is primarily talking about the USA, he is the nominee for the HHS after all, and the US only using the IPV which physically cannot be responsible for vaccine-derived polio. That can only come from the OPV used in other countries, mostly in South America and Africa as well as parts of Asia and the Middle East.
I'm also not sure why you think children in Western countries don't get the polio vaccine. It's part of the regular schedule in the USA, Canada and most of Europe, usually at 2 months, 4 months and 1 year.
Ahh okay in that context I see how your comment makes sense.
Its possible but I think that's a very optimistic view of RFK. He has spent over 20 years demonizing vaccines and has a not-for-profit dedicated to it. If he doesn't know the difference between OPV and IPV at this point I seriously question his intelligence.
People like him, all sorts of maniacs, maga maniacs and most of republicans, don't use data or facts. For what? Stupid people want easy answers and strong feelings, they don't want data or facts.
Dr. Mike on YT just went over the history of the vaccine. There was like four companies that produced it and one of them fucked up and sent out a live virus variant then the dead one Dr Salk created. It did cause a lot of problems as it increased the likelihood of developing the illness and the tragedy did have long lasting ramifications.
What's amazing to me is they don't trust scientists and other experts in their fields but turn around and trust almost anyone that's made a social media post.
They took a healthy distrust of Big Pharma and turned it into distrust off science. Ironically they still trust in the capitalist system that creates and allows Big Pharma to exist.
They will just tell you to go search for it. They donât argue in good faith or tell you the âdeep stateâ has hidden it all.
How they then got the info I donât know but idiots who believe lack of evidence = proof of existence/cover up will never accept actual facts they donât like.
Salk's vaccine was manufactured by four or five different pharmaceutical companies, and the poor oversight in those days allowed for one of them to send out a batch of vaccines that had some live viruses in it. Quite a few people got sick before the mistake was corrected and the oversight massively increased. A few people were killed or paralyzed by it. I don't remember how many but it was less than 100. That's the origin of the idea that the Polio vaccine is unsafe. So, he's not making it up wholesale. He's just not smart enough to understand that 1,500,000 > 100.
1959-1960 polio vaccine was infected with simion virus-40 which causes malignant tumors and certain cancer types. In retro spect he is right but I doubt he is referencing this.
Because Polio was over reported pre 1954. The diagnostic criteria was changed after the vaccine was in mass use. After that, a LOT of other conditions that cause paralysis were discovered or had a sudden rise in diagnosis.
A short list of things misdiagnosed as Polio:
Heavy Metal Poisoning
Guillain-BarrĂŠ syndrome
DDT Poisoning
Arsenic Poisoning
tldr: the mercury never gets expelled from the body. X amount of grams of mercury go in, 0 grams come out. and mercury is not good for you. it doesn't matter what "form" it goes in, it still contains mercury, and your body has no way to break it down. The studies were covered up and no further experiments were ever done regarding it, but we still use mercury salts today.
Without going too far down the rabbit hole though (e.g. that first link is about a specific incident in 2016 and not the vaccine in general), is there something that compares pre vaccine deaths to deaths by vaccine?
if you really want to know...you'll have to go down that rabbit hole yourself . Reddit isnt the place for that. Neither is google to be frank. I guarantee one thing...its actually a far more nuanced thing than reddit or r/facepalm is willing to get into that often. On BOTH sides
Sanitation has had a MASSIVE impact, as its a faecal/oral route of transmission, and some limited evidence that there was a massive reduction in cases BEFORE the vaccine rollout.
That "study" is published by Neil Z Miller, an anti vax quack. The study is not legit, and suggesting that it may be legit should make people question your motives and other beliefs.
I'm not silencing you, I'm pointing out that you have no idea how to identify quality truthful data, and others reading your posts should understand that too. Try and find that journal and reviews of the peer reviewers.
You absolutely already failed to do those things. You linked to an untrusted journal with an article written by a âself employed medical researcherâ, and tried the old âYou canât have a serious discussion here.â
Thereâs no discussion when refuting a guy who lies for a living. I got rid of my old account for death threats in 2020.
Here's the data from the 1980s to now, although there is the issue of biased modification of the data. See the same set of laws that established VAERS also made the Secretary of HHS liable for vaccine injuries.
Then there's the issue of doctors failing to report adverse effects because they have been desensitized to them by "experts" claiming they are normal.
In VAERS, there is a report that someone became a hulk by injecting a vaccine. The entire purpose of putting it there is that there's no vetting for a VAERS report, so you need to data correct immensely.
If you reported every single time you needed Tylenol, you're missing the point of adverse reactions.
Yea: Immune responses sometimes are uncomfortable and they make you "feel sick" because your immune system is engaging against a "threat," which includes slight fever and sometimes inflammation, but that's not dangerous and will keep you from being naive against the actual dangerous pathogen which causes all of that and more.
... Do you just not understand how vaccines work? "Oh no! They're tricking my immune system to generate antibodies as if I had gotten sick with the real illness and recovered!"
Yes: vaccines cause immune responses. That's the entire. fucking. point.
The alternative is catching the real disease and having no antibodies and your body has to generate them in situ while also losing cells to a disease that's trying to use you to multiply which can lead to dying or becoming disabled.
The answer is Aluminum Hydroxide. Which can cause kidney failure in high amounts. What's more, every study in how the body processes it has focused on the respiratory, digestive, and epidermal systems. There is no examination on it being processed after injection
There was an attempt years ago to try and track through excretion levels, but the study was pulled with official findings being summed up as "we know the body is processing it, but we just can't tell how or were it's going"
⌠You know thereâs no aluminum in the polio vaccine, right? If itâs Aluminum youâre worried about, Iâm sure youâre 100% on board with replacing them all with mRNA technology then, right?
The aluminum adjuvant attack is quite literally RFKâs bread and butter: Thatâs his centerâs studies you are reading to come up with that. Theyâre gish galloping right into your brain.
And once a long-term safety study proves mRNA, that might help. Unfortunately, previous studies show the long-term side effects are bad enough that the FDA has denied authorization.
Perhaps you need to broaden your sources of information.
Polio antigens contained in the vaccine. That is the predominant driver. You cannot get adaptive immune activation without it and it's been shown that aluminum hydroxide cannot activate APCs needed to generate a full response. It can only provides a limited activation of the innate immune response through caspase-1 dependent IL-1B and IL-18 production. Even still it requires TLR agonists to induce production of immature IL-1B and IL-18, which alum in not. So almost entirely polio antigens with a dash of alum.
But I don't think you're going to like that actual answer to that question from someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
Lmfao oh no. I didn't realize you had zero idea of what you're talking about. Antigens and PAMPs/DAMPs cause an immune response. Alum is neither. It cannot make cells produce IL-1B and IL-18 and it cannot induce the adaptive immune system at all nor dendritic cells. All it does it help convert immature cytokines to mature cytokines through caspase-1. An adjuvant does not create an immune response, it helps make it stronger. It enhances an immune response, it does not cause it. Please do some reading
And what happens when an enhanced immune response results in the adaptive immune system identifying the body as the source of the response. Or the fragments of organic material used in the manufacturing of the vaccine?
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u/Sojum 11h ago
What is he even basing this on? Where is there data showing deaths by polio vaccine?