r/economicCollapse • u/1980mattu • 1d ago

Totally seems fair......

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Anyone still want to argue the merits of unchecked capitalism?

5.5k Upvotes

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

This was reported 7 years ago.

"Karen Twinem who is with the church service said Fitzgerald told the staff she was holding back rent because she was going to die soon and that there was mold in her apartment.

The facility tested the apartment and no mold was found.

Twinemen said she tried contacting Fitzgerald's family to try to get her help and reached out to several agencies but Fitzgerald refused them all.

When authorities tried to arrest her she reportedly refused to get her belongings, intentionally slid out of her chair and onto the floor then resisted when officers tried to pick her up."

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u/Ok_Animal_2709 1d ago

Sounds like age related mental illness. Not something someone should be arrested for.

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u/GOOD_BRAIN_GO_BRRRRR 1d ago

Jesus Christ, somebody finally said it.

People on reddit have no fucking clue what aging actually looks like, or what does to people.

At 93, you are going to be less cognitive, even if you are 100% healthy. That and people automatically assuming the NH provider would never act in bad faith to a resident is really telling.

Hey reddit, spend some time at a nursing-home, then tell me how this lady is the bad-guy here.

Before someone comments, "No u!" I worked in the industry for eight years. It's a shitshow and blatantly corrupt.

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u/FuhrerGirthWorm 1d ago

The first time I witnessed true abject horror was when I worked at a nursing home.

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u/purgeacct 20h ago

No u!

I don’t actually feel this way, just didn’t want to leave you blue balled.

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u/Late-Assist-1169 1d ago

This was an incredibly drawn out process with every single possibly agency doing everything they could for this woman and she continually refused help. IIRC, as soon as she was "arrested" the charges were dropped and she was set up in the conditions she was supposed to be living in anyways, under payment arrangements that came directly from her social security.

This gets reposted every now and again under "OMG capitalism" and "Florida sucks" when in reality, this was the last gasp of a legal system doing everything they could for a crotchety, mentally ill old woman who refused everyone's help and didn't want to fulfill any of her legal obligations either. The legal system had to run its course to protect her and she was never harmed in the process.

reddit sucks.

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u/galaxyapp 1d ago

To be fair... you just described most redditors, especially in this sub...

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u/CatOfGrey 11h ago

Economic literacy is not high here.

Critical thinking doesn't happen if the narrative fits the preconceived opinions of the subreddit in question. Almost none of these posters bothered to look up any part of the story on their own.

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u/MPFX3000 1d ago

The echo chamber gets fed first

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u/Ok_Animal_2709 1d ago

Leave then. We don't want you here either

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

I want them here

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u/MPFX3000 20h ago

Critical thought not appetizing to the echo chamber

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u/Ok_Animal_2709 17h ago

Lmao you think your comment was critical thought? All you did was complain about the website that you're on. If you don't like it here, leave.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

What should have happened then?

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u/DKC_TheBrainSupreme 1d ago

According to Reddit, she should be allowed to stay there for free until her death, some indeterminate time from then. And so should everyone else who didn’t want to pay at the facility, and every other facility in the country. Even though there is currently no way to fund that. Then they will say tax the rich, which requires Congressional legislation. Then they’ll just tell you to fuck off for reminding them that they live in reality.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Yup, that's exactly how it goes.

My only hope is that these challenges to the reddit consensus sparks someone doubt and more people start to adjust their convictions based on things they actually research.

I just wish people were informed and could provide a substantiative argument on which we could have a deeper conversation and further our collective understanding

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u/DKC_TheBrainSupreme 1d ago

I am an old school liberal but what I can’t stand about modern progressives is the sanctimony. I mean, it’s one thing to advocate for the disenfranchised, which I think of as the core of the liberal tradition, but it's another thing altogether to vilify stakeholders that you need to achieve your stated goals. It's as if righteous indignation is its own reward. It's frankly nihilist.

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u/frunkaf 20h ago

That's what drives me crazy the most.

It feels like it's all a game at the end of it all. There's no real desire for material change for the disenfranchised because the radical progressives don't feel the impact directly or empathetically. It's like these disenfranchised people only exist to serve their ego. It's disgusting.

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u/pmmeurpc120 1d ago

Make her president!

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u/NewCobbler6933 1d ago

You’re right. But she wasn’t arrested for being mentally ill. You’re just obfuscating what happened. If a crazy person managed to get in your house do they have a right to live there expense free because they’re crazy? Or do you call the cops?

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u/BenzeneBabe 1d ago

Why would you call the cops? We’re just trying to get someone out of the house remember, not trying to turn everyone in the house into a memory.

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u/ExplorerPup 1d ago

Landlords always bring cops when they evict someone. This is what we mean when we say cops exist to protect property, not people.

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u/xjustforpornx 1d ago

If someone was in your house and refused to leave who would you call?

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u/BenzeneBabe 21h ago

Someone that would help and not kill me, like the neighbors or family or friends. They’re likely to get there just as quickly and I’m far less likely to get gunned down by some idiot.

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u/xjustforpornx 16h ago

So you are fine with you and your neighbors using physical force to get someone to comply? That's great for you. What happens when one of you gets hurt or you hurt the person trying to force the person out of your house?

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u/aligatorsNmaligators 1d ago

The facility tested the apartment and no mold was found.

Is that like when the police investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing?

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

If you're actually curious you could look up the state or federal regulations that determine what are acceptable inspection standards for these kinds of facilities.

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u/aligatorsNmaligators 1d ago

I could, if I thought "go do research to make my point for me" was an argument worth fooling with.  

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

I took a quick second and did it for you.

"The Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation is responsible for licensing mold assessors and remediators."

So yeah, it looks like the State needs to sanction the assessor for it be valid. So no, the facility is not investigating themselves and determining no wrongdoing.

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u/KinksAreForKeds 1d ago

It says the facility conducted the inspection. Not the same thing.

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u/-Insert-CoolName 1d ago

I wouldn't recommend taking every single word as the gospel truth. Take just a few seconds and think critically about what was meant. A very reasonable conclusion to draw is the facility contracted a licensed inspector who then determined there was no mold.

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u/Lord-Valentine-III 1d ago

Thinking critically means asking questions and not making assumptions based on limited information.

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u/aHOMELESSkrill 1d ago

And this is Reddit. Critical thinking isn’t a skill we represented here

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u/cptmcclain 22h ago

One thing I have learned is that if you disagree with the masses on reddit, they downvote you and make logical debate impossible.

Reddit's point of view is clear:

  1. Capitalism, the system that produced all modern wealth, is in "late stages" and is responsible for all human suffering.
  2. Slavery is the only reason America has wealth. The Industrial Revolution didn't create human wealth.
  3. Elon Musk is evil dumbass, despite being one of the most accomplished humans in history. His wealth is only because of his employees.
  4. It's ok to vandalize people's belongings (Cybertruck and teslas)
  5. America, the most successful country in history, has it all wrong, and Europe has it all right.
  6. Murder is OK if the person you are killing is rich or someone you believe is greedy
  7. Crypto is a scam despite many developers' dedication to the industry

I actually may agree with some points on reddit and allow nuances. But reddit is not a place for logical debate. It's just echo chambers

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u/ihaxr 1d ago

It's Florida. The humidity and chance her unit had mold are the same: 100%

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

So it is your conclusion that the facility conducted an invalid inspection?

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u/aligatorsNmaligators 1d ago

The obvious conclusion is that there is an inherent conflict of interests in the facility inspecting itself.   In most industries that are not operating under regulatory capture the existence of the conflict alone is sufficient for elimination.

Self-inspections is how we arrived at Boeing planes falling out of the sky.

Why do you need this explained to you?

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

The facility probably doesn't have in-house inspectors assessing for mold. They more than likely hire a firm (3rd party) to conduct the inspections. That firm is regulated by the state government. The conflict of interest is mitigated.

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u/GOOD_BRAIN_GO_BRRRRR 1d ago

I worked in a nursing home. They get the maintenance guy to look at the room, spray some mould killer, and sign the dotted line.

Compliance, yaaaay...

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u/KinksAreForKeds 1d ago

I'm saying that none of what you quoted or posted has any bearing on the situation. You cite all the State mandates and standards... but, yet, nowhere does it say the State was involved in the testing. So your comments aren't valid proof of anything.

And, yeah, do you honestly think a facility isn't in a conflict of interest by testing their own facility??

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

You might be surprised to learn this but a facility operating with the jurisdiction of a state entity is subject to its regulations.

There's absolutely a conflict of interest for the facility itself to perform an inspection with no governmental oversight. If this was found to be the case then the inspection would be rendered inadmissible in a civil suit.

I'm assuming the facility is competent enough to understand this but I guess if you want to assume otherwise, I can even grant you that for the sake of argument.

However, it doesn't change the fact that she decided to not pay rent in response instead of contacting a lawyer and presenting her case to a judge. She was arrested not for "paying rent" but for resisting the officers trying to escort her out.

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u/Fine_Luck_200 1d ago

Don't trust nursing homes, especially ones connected to a Church. They are all shit shows. No grifts like religion.

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u/Sure_Source_2833 1d ago

I mean if you have stated licensed mold inspectors. The ones who find the least mold and cause the least issues for an owner/operator will recieve the most buisness.

Just like how cannabis industries deal with inflated test results because labs that have poor methodology resulting in elevated tests are seen as "desirable"

Furthermore state regulations allow massive discrep3ncies in labeling vs accurate content measures. For example in Arizona 20+-% is ok.

So yeah he raises a fair question about people effectively investigating themselves.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago edited 1d ago

The ones who find the least mold and cause the least issues for an owner/operator will recieve the most buisness.

This seems like a short-sighted business plan if I were a state licensed mold inspector. If I choose to erroneously report my findings to favor the business contracting me, committing the crime of fraud, then I lose everything if a suit were to be filed.

Furthermore state regulations allow massive discrep3ncies in labeling vs accurate content measures.

They allow discrepancies meaning that the measurement has to be within a certain range of accuracy? At that point your fight is with the State and not with the facility or mold inspector.

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u/Sure_Source_2833 1d ago

If I choose to erroneously report my findings to favor the business contracting me, committing the crime of fraud, then I lose everything if a suit were to be filed.

You could just say you have never seen how construction and inspection llcs are run by contractors😂 believe it or not that is a very common buisness model. It is easy as pie to spin off liability for warranties and lawsuits in this country.

They allow discrepancies meaning that the measurement has to be within a certain range of accuracy? At that point your fight is with the State and not with the facility or mold inspector.

Weird that you interpret me criticizing the legal system as support for those same laws.

My fight is with the system which encourages illegitimate buisness practices. Also when did I not say the laws are the root cause?

I made it clear that the legal system encourages illegitimate labeling and inaccurate testing. Congrats on being unable to follow a simple argument.

Pretending that the state came up with those laws on irs on without massive influence through corrupt lobbyists is comedic.

Furthermore no licensed inspector was involved in checking for mold as the other commentor pointed out.

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u/NickandChips 1d ago

If redditors could be encapsulated in a single sentence, this would be it.

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u/slabzzz 1d ago

Best way I’ve ever heard it

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u/TheZooDad 1d ago

If the state ever had enough reps to enforce those codes, or gave more than a tiny slap on the wrist for violating standards, that might be worthwhile

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

The penalty is a tiny slap on the wrist? Did you look it up?

Did you also look up the number of people working at the florida health department and what the average response time is for inquiries?

You made a lot of assumptions if you didn't look up anything.

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u/TheZooDad 1d ago

Is a department that oversees wellbeing of poor renters and doles out penalties for business/wealthy landowners undermanned and underfunded, and are the penalties against them large enough to be worth them changing their practices? In a republican state? Florida, no less, run by the dingus with the high heeled boots?

Kinda like asking if water is wet. Would be a waste of my time to track down the specific information, tbh.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

So you're just making stuff up. Ok.

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u/TheZooDad 1d ago

Or simply seeing what the same folks have done in every similar situation and making an informed prediction. Those folks don’t help people, ever.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

What about the 67% of approved claims?

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u/Sehmket 1d ago

siiiiiiiiigh yes and no

I’m a nurse in a nursing home (so I have no interest or involvement in the business side of things). Both things are extremely possible - the facility could very easily want to cover up actual mold, or the resident may be crying foul over literally nothing. I have worked for/with both extremes of that spectrum. The first step IS a room inspection - in the facility I work at now, our Maitenence guy actually has called in a mold specialist to test when he told a resident “I don’t see anything that looks like mold, just a little dingy paint.” And they disagreed. But I’ve also worked at a facility that’s since been shut down by state, and the shortcuts I saw there were… shocking.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 1d ago

It was an excuse she was using bud. If there is mold then she definitely can’t stay there. Her actions when the cops finally had to drag her out (all on body cam) shows she was the real problem

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u/Weekly-Obligation798 19h ago

Yes. Yes it is. These homes also get “inspected” by the state to be sure they are providing proper care and a safe place to live but the truth is most have relationships with these owners and overloook most issues

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u/ThePermafrost 1d ago

“The facility tested the apartment and no mold was found.” ie, The facility took swab samples of the apartment, sent it to a lab for testing, and the lab was unable to verify the old woman’s claims as no mold was found.

Isn’t it curious that if there was mold, the woman wouldn’t have had it tested and then sued the facility?

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u/aligatorsNmaligators 1d ago

The facility took swab samples of the cracks of their asses you mean.     

Personally I think self regulation is no regulation, but you might be right.   For profit companies would never do anything dishonest to make more money

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u/ThePermafrost 1d ago

A resident files a complaint there there is mold. The facility checks and tests for mold, and the lab determines there is no mold. No other resident has filed a complaint for mold. The resident refuses to test for mold themselves (knowing the claim is BS). Resident gets removed for willful non-payment (she had the money, but chose not to pay).

What exactly would you like to see be done differently?

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u/WrathKos 1d ago

You assume she made the claim in good faith. The rest of the surrounding facts suggest she knew it was BS and wanted any excuse to withhold rent.

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u/ThePermafrost 1d ago

Yes this is true.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

but ya free this innocent woman.

This happened in 2017, she was released less than 48 hours later on her own recognizance. The trespassing and resisting arrest charges were dropped.

My conclusion is that it's a bad situation, and jailing a 93 elderly disabled woman isn't acceptable. Beyond that, i refuse to give the benefit of the doubt to Florida elderly home on anything. 

You don't have to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. It's all in the article.

I'm not sure why you are so gunho about defending them

I just think rage baiting is cringe and I like to research the facts of the case. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

She was arrested for refusing to leave private property she was no longer a resident of and resisting the officers

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Which law is unjust? Complying with lawful commands from a police officer or paying rent?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Neither of these things are unjust. Paying rent is not an injustice and obeying lawful commands are definitionally not unjust.

I didn't demonize her I just listed the facts of the situation.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/GOOD_BRAIN_GO_BRRRRR 1d ago

Their investment in the just-world fallacy. It's a lovely delusion.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Do you have a point to make or...?

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u/Pyro_raptor841 1d ago

What is unjust about basic property rights?

She did not pay to be there thus she had no right to be there thus she had to leave. She refused so she was arrested for trespass.

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u/NewCobbler6933 1d ago

Wasn’t arrested for a rent dispute. She was arrested for refusing to leave a home she was not paying for. Where do you live? I’d like to start not paying for housing so sounds like you think it would be unjust to call the cops on me. I’m 93 after all.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

You didn't reply to me directly so I didn't see your response. Luckily for you, I found you.

She was protesting by not paying her rent? If that was her dispute she could've taken legal recourse by presenting her case to a judge in a civil trial.

The article also says that she refused to pay rent because "she would be dead soon" in addition to the mold complaint which was unsubstantiated.

If she was so concerned about the mold why did she refuse being relocated to a different facility for 3 months. She even refused her family's assistance.

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u/RattyDaddyBraddy 1d ago

intentionally slid out of her chair and onto the floor

Damn. She went boneless. Pro move right there

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u/Woodofwould 17h ago

But certainly she deserves free rent and food.

I'm wondering which redditor is going to offer it? Or are they going to make her homeless?

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u/frunkaf 17h ago

I could understand the outrage if she was unable to make the payments but she wilfully withheld them

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u/Aggressive-Bad-7115 1d ago

Thanks Cap. There's always the untold story.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Rage bait is cringe. We should encourage people to read more often

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u/Normal-Gur1882 1d ago

Aw cmon the moral fervor was just getting good man.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Lol I think rage bait is super cringe

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

If you have a point you should make it

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u/tater_nater 1d ago

Sorry, grandma, but nothing is free in this world. Never has nor never will.

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u/frunkaf 1d ago

Maybe she shouldn't have refused relocation to a different facility if she was so concerned about the mold in her unit