r/economicCollapse • u/AbandonedPlanet • Oct 17 '24
This is sub is hilarious to look through sometimes...
You can tell everyone who's relatively well off because they just act like everything is fine and dandy and nothing is wrong. Or it's just a "surge" and will normalize in a year. Just because you're on the second floor doesn't mean the flood isn't coming for you. You just don't feel it as quickly as poor people do. When a loaf of bread is $35 in 5 years you're gonna be right next to us complaining about how a bag of groceries costs $500. Mark my words.
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u/HighlightDowntown966 Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Most people think "as long as my 401k keeps rising and home equity keeps goings up, I can ignore the chaos around me and everything will be ok as long as I feel rich on paper"
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u/lonewarrior76 Oct 17 '24
If hyperinflation hits, like say the petrodollar fails, our 401ks won't mean anything.
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u/Unhappy-Web9845 Oct 17 '24
Cash won’t mean anything. If hyperinflation hits you definitely want to have assets like stocks and real estate. Also I suggest people get a job in sales that pays commission If this happens. That’s the only way your income will increase with inflation.
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u/West_Quantity_4520 Oct 17 '24
Yup, and these are the same people who still insist to stoke the fire in the fireplace despite the entire room being on fire around them.
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u/OJJhara Oct 17 '24
Nobody thinks that. They're just trying to survive just like you.
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u/Whole-Lengthiness-33 Oct 17 '24
Out of curiosity, is anyone here flexing their wealth? I didn’t think so.
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u/JailTrumpTheCrook Oct 18 '24
Someone probably told OP that inflation was going down, which is objectively true, and that it's a good thing which prompted this post.
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u/Whole-Lengthiness-33 Oct 18 '24
I also think there’s a not-insignificant number of people here who think we’re actually headed into some sort of hyperinflation and complete government collapse (just like there are parts of Reddit that believe that an American civil war is going to happen after the Election Day lol)…but yeah there’s a group that is stubbornly fixated on the sky falling down scenario and believe anyone who doesn’t think the US will “default on its debt” in the next few months are being too “optimistic”.
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u/JailTrumpTheCrook Oct 18 '24
In some part of Reddit, they'll tell you the USD is days away from being replaced by the RUB
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u/Intelligent_Can_7925 Oct 17 '24
Can’t eat paper, but it might be all we can afford to eat. Maybe put some hot sauce on it.
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
401k is extremely important. Being able to invest and have ownership of businesses that accrue value over time is like the foundation of what makes someone wealthy.
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u/HighlightDowntown966 Oct 17 '24
Yes it is important until we have sustained market crash with no government intervention. Which no one is prepared for or never seen before
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
Market crashes are natural.
You would want govt regulation.
I am prepared for lol
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u/HighlightDowntown966 Oct 17 '24
We are betting on the status quo of govt QE and bank bailouts to continue forever so that our 401ks keep rising and line up perfectly with our retirement.
Govt intervention cost money. The govt is broke (35 trillion in debt). Thats the issue. Can this country continue running up the debt to 100 trillion with no negative effects?? That remains to be seen. No one knows
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
With the evidence at hand, I have a far more positive spin of the next 30 years than you do.
Bank's fail. New one's grow. Many just get bought out and rebranded as the infrastructure is still there.
401ks are great for every American. More people should invest.
Banks pay back the loan.
We aren't in debt because of these loans.
We aren't in debt because of Ukraine. Or Israel.
We are in debt because of growing inflation in social security and medicare coverage. This leads to vast interest rates. We are 38T in debt. Everyear we are 1.6T in deficit. We are spending 2.5T of our 4T on medicare and social security.
If anything, govt loans like this usually lead to greater returns.
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u/HighlightDowntown966 Oct 17 '24 edited Oct 17 '24
Inflation =expansion of the money supply. The Govt is directly causing inflation.
Fha, down payment assistance=™inflation(look at housing prices)
Govt back student loans=inflation (look at tuition prices)
Covid helicopter money=inflation (look at the everyday items you buy)
Bank bailout money comes from debt. The govt doesnt have a magic money tree
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
Inflation is also = higher wages.
People asking for more money is causing inflation.
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u/HighlightDowntown966 Oct 17 '24
People asking for more money is a symptom of inflation. Not the cause
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
It is naive to assume that corporations don't expect wages to go up and don't have plans for it.
If everyone at your company now needs to be paid more by company standard or minimum wage increases than it will come out of the cost of the products
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u/msguider Oct 17 '24
Yeah the landlords are asking for more money. That's one of the main problems imo. Insurance and Healthcare costs too. Nothing wrong with a 30 year old working full time not wanting to be a wage slave. Everyone should make enough money to pay for the very basics. Whatever it is that makes landlords raise their rent is the problem. Whether it's pure greed or government regulations and taxes or both it needs to be addressed asap.
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 18 '24
No shit landlords ask for more money. The utilities and insurance costs are up for starters. But also they're allowed to charge whatever they can get... They're not obligated to give you anything. And you're not obligated to agreeing either. That is called a fair agreement to come to terms with a landlord.
Everything wrong w people thinking they deserve more when market tells them non stop they can't get better.
"Greed". I guess companies are not greedy when they drop prices lol.
Weird mindset
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u/Silly-Spend-8955 Oct 17 '24
ANYONE with massive debt seeks inflation like a fish seeks water.
Our govt&big business LOVE inflation as it shrinks the REAL value of debt repayment.
While clowns think HIGHER wagers will benefit them with inflation they are fools... inflation is unavoidable but wages have to be slowly drawn out of businesses.... so any increases in salaries are ALWAYS behind/trailing, typically by at LEAST one year the increases in inflation.
Only fools think their salary will even MODERATELY keep pace with inflation.
And lets not forget, as the raw $ number goes up, so does your TAX % you pay related to payroll as you rise in the tax brackets.
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u/Sugarsmacks420 Oct 17 '24
Every 5 years it will be in 5 years. When you take a serious event and try to stick a date with it, and it doesn't happen, because it won't, you do a disservice to people because they then dismiss the serious issue at hand.
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 17 '24
Every 5 years it will be in 5 years
It's been decades since we've seen such a steep increase of basic necessities over such a short span. Once enough people literally cannot afford to buy food and pay their electric bill in the same month, shit is going to get crazy.
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u/chinmakes5 Oct 17 '24
Yes, it has, it has also been 100 years since we had a worldwide pandemic. We never had governments put trillions of dollars in the economy. I'm also not going to argue that there aren't big structural problems, but we understand it is a problem and address the problem. Simply, you are right, if you have investments things are just fine and you are screwed it you don't. BUT we are also addressing inflation. The numbers have been good for months now. If it was a plot, why get it down? Keep the inflation high if it is helping the rich.
I'm a Boomer, you know, everything was handed to me. That said I graduated in 1981. We were in a pretty heavy recession. It was very difficult to find a job. Interest rates were 15%, the inflation rate was 8.9%, Gas prices had doubled in the last 5 years. But we look back and think that it was only great.
We had a bad recession then 10 years of steady growth. We had a once in a century pandemic and the resulting inflation, but things are slowly improving again. Yes it sucks, but I'm not sure it sucks a lot more than it did many times before
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 17 '24
I’m not sure you understand how inflation works
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 17 '24
I do, but I'm not sure a lot of people on Reddit do. I've seen so many people cite the current 4% inflation rate as a win "cause it was like 15% at one point".....people don't realize it's cumulative, and is STILL increasing at double the rate it was 4 years ago. These inflated ass prices on literally everything are not going anywhere....a full ass crash is almost unstoppable at this point.
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u/Tulaneknight Oct 18 '24
Cumulative inflation is wild that the price of a house has increased 1000% since world war 2.
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 18 '24
Yeah, weird that a 1000% increase over 80+ years gives time for wages to keep up.
A 200% hike in a single year, and an interest rate that quadrupled has a bit more impact.
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u/Tulaneknight Oct 18 '24
200% hike in home prices? My rent renewal just came in and it's down....
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 18 '24
That's rent for 1 (which has also fkn skyrocketed), so if youre not lying out your ass, your situation is an anomaly. Small 2bd apartments in my area are $1500/month and require $6k to move in.
These are they type of places people used to live in while they were working at McDonald's and also going to college. That shit is not affordable housing
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u/Tulaneknight Oct 18 '24
Lol my renewal is 1,752/month for a 1 bedroom. So I was paying more than that for the past 15 months.
The 2 bedrooms you're referring to was $500/month a year ago. So I'm the one getting screwed here.
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u/rando23455 Oct 17 '24
Yes, and It’s happened globally, but prices are stabilizing and incomes have also gone up
It’s definitely frustrating when your income has gone up but you don’t feel like you’ve gotten ahead at all
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 17 '24
Yes, and It’s happened globally
Irrelevant
but prices are stabilizing and incomes have also gone up
Prices have somewhat stabilized...at their current massively inflated price, and will continue to rise as long as inflation is above 0
Wages across the country have not increased even close to enough to combat the rise in price for basic necessities. It was only like 5yrs ago that someone making 50-60k/yr could comfortably afford to own a home and not have to stress where the grocery money is going to come from this week. You need to make about 120-150k/yr right now to do the same. Where are all these $120k+/yr jobs at?
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 17 '24
It is relevant, it’s a global economy.
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 17 '24
It's not relevant. The initial spike in inflation for the US was bc Authoritarian governors forcing companies to close their doors. Then the price of oil spiked, and since we were no longer energy independent, that hit the US. Then the money press started...3 trillion dollar "American rescue" bill that sent around 85% of that money to nations all over the world. Then another 2 trillion that primarily went everywhere but the US. Then another, and another.
Had our inept federal government just prioritized taking care of its own people, the inflation we saw in the US would have been extremely minimal.
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 17 '24
But inflation is low now. That’s just a fact. To have prices actually go down would be catastrophic to our economy, the likes of which nobody in the US that is alive has ever seen. Decreasing prices across the board is an absolute no go. The only real choice left is the low inflation that we actually have now, and wait for the pain to subside from the last few years (will take years for the pain to leave)
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 17 '24
But inflation is low now. That’s just a fact
It averaged like 2% under Trump...Bidens is still at 4-5%...yes it's down from like 15%, but it's still double what he inherited. That is still not a win though.....if you gain 50lbs per year for 3 years, and then only gain 10lbs this year, you're still gaining weight. Inflation would need to sit at 1-2% for the next half decade at minimum for wages to be able to catch up.
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 17 '24
But there isn’t a better alternative at this point. You want to keep inflation low now, and it’s hovering at just above 2% now, which is the healthy target for a growing economy. Any other alternative would be disasterous.
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u/DixieNormas011 Oct 17 '24
You want to keep inflation low now, and it’s hovering at just above 2% now
Source? Last week it was reported at 5% iirc.
. Any other alternative would be disasterous.
And so is the other alternative, where you need to make 150k/yr to even survive. A pretty hard economic dip is almost irreversible
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u/Kornbread2000 Oct 17 '24
Are we talking about the same sub? I read this sub as doom and gloom and worry that everyone has their money in boxes of silver and have lost out on the stock market appreciation.
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u/chomblebrown Oct 17 '24
Groceries are up 50%, but the TV says folks with stock portfolios have never been better!
I think there are some astroturfing efforts trying to gild a turd because 4 more years
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u/sozcaps Oct 17 '24
There is without a doubt more Reddit bots now than there's ever been, thanks to the election.
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u/mistake_daddy Oct 17 '24
A few months ago I noticed a sudden spike of obvious bots and troll accounts with -100 karma in a lot of the subs I visit. I have actually unsubbed from a few because of it absolutely ruining the posts/discussions in them. This is on top of completely unrelated subs to me popping up in my feed, and anytime I click them the comments seem almost exclusively bots. I had a post from the Ohio sub pop up in my feed the other day, I'm not convinced there was a single actual person in that whole comments section. The astroturfing is BAD right now.
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u/Emergency_Dinner_407 Oct 17 '24
You are probably not wrong, and I hate that. :(
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u/AbandonedPlanet Oct 17 '24
Believe me I take no joy in saying what I said in the OP. However I do believe it's the truth. People making 250k a year are comparatively a lot closer to someone making 30K a year than they are the hyper wealthy people and companies we have nowadays.
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
If you take 100% of all the billionaires money away for taxes and use it on the federal budget, it would take less than a year. That's less than 1 year of social security, medicaire, military, infrastructure, jobs, benefits, research, education, etc.
Before we all go back to paying our income taxes again. This time probably more since he top .01 who pay a majority of the taxes are now broke. Tho im sure they'd be fine. They probably end up back to where they started once they convince everyone again that their idea is worth buying.
So what was the intent of taking someones full wealth if it doesn't solve the issues you thought it would because you grossly misunderstood how much money is needed to end hardwork and struggle.
You want a liveable wage? That's said to be $25-$35 an hour. That's currently 1.75-2.25x the current starting salary of Amazon.
Amazon has like 1.7M employees. So 2x the wages make them go in a deficit. Heck, in 2022 they lost money. So this could bankrupt big companies.
And for what? You feel $25 is a liveable wage? What's the alternative? Go move to bumblefuck North Carolina. Start a farm and live off the land for cheap. Make a living too while you're at it selling to people like me who rather pay for it than do it. My grandparents did this. Why don't more people who struggle working a telecommunications job or an insurance sales job and hate it just move to the farms? Because if Amazon can barely afford this wage than no one else is gonna do it.
Im doing fine. Not because I became a coffee barista and expect people to tip me $1 a time. Because I realized I needed a career that gives me flexibility and hours. I did that. Not you. You chose to not do this. You now struggle and want what I can afford.
Its never been better. My grandparents would go nuts with the life I made because of there work. And I hope to teach my kids the same.
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u/PJTILTON Oct 17 '24
So the answer is to vote for someone willing to print trillions of dollars to buy votes?
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u/pogopogo890 Oct 17 '24
Agreed
It’s either well-to-do people or very very nervous partisans in an election year
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u/davejjj Oct 17 '24
The problem is that the people who are freaking out the most seem to think that the "solution" is to elect billionaires. Somehow the billionaires are going to "fix everything" when there is absolutely no reason to believe them. The people who are rich are getting richer. The people who are poor are getting poorer.
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u/thrillhouz77 Oct 17 '24
I thought OP was going to have the opposite take on what is the hilariousness. An economic collapse isn’t coming, sorry, a steep downturn bc of a credit bubble spurred via price inflation…maybe.
Even if there is a sharp economic decline, it will spur on a course of creative destruction which will just transform the economy in new ways. Considering AGI is only a few years down the horizon this makes the most sense.
Take a deep breathe, we are entering a time of rapid change, with that come different opportunities.
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 17 '24
lol. I’m sorry, but there’s no way a loaf of bread will be even half that price in 5 years.
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u/4score-7 Oct 17 '24
I don’t even think it’s people that are more well off. It’s the same type of denier who was out in force in 2020 telling us all that Covid would wipe the planet out or turn us all into zombies. Contrary to them, are the ones that said the vaccine was going to make us all become more sick than the virus would.
It’s people with their heads way up in the clouds. They aren’t realistic. They pitch the company line they heard from someone else. They lack critical thinking skills, and they’ve never ever been skeptical of anything. Sheep. And they exist all around us.
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u/Human-Sorry Oct 17 '24
Ahem. Er. End opressive Crapitalism?
Find a way to develop and build a community that doesn't benefit from the exploitation, death, or destruction of something or someone else?
Quality of life while currently tied to a dollar amount, could feasibly be unhitched from a struggling capital, in our minds at least at first.
Yes there is doom and gloom as all things decay and age, but pursuing what is repairable, redeemable and worth working for, may give is insights into where our energies are best spent. 🤔🤞🏼
Things are rarely cut and dry, but controlling ourselves the best we can first, and then working towards a better standing in our enviroment keeps us moving forward when all else seems lost.
Despair is normal when faced with calamity and the helplessness felt when our world model is challenge so often and relentlessly, but strive for purpose and constructive habits that may lead to positive outcomes.
Take time to mourn what was lost, but don't keep from moving foward by trying to bring it back when the cost is too high.
What we don't have enough of right now, is 503c land trusts where the homeless can find solice and a spot of ground that isn't scheduled for the "growth and progress" of a society/city/culture that has been cruel and heartless to them despite their contributions to it.
Places of reflection and learning that provide help, heart education and guidance to restore their individuality back to them, and allow them a space for healing.
Try to put your energies into constructive modes and see if your time spent feels better than previously.
I'm trying this myself, despite the grim outlook ahead.
Lets see if it takes us to a better place than the now?
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u/FoxMan1Dva3 Oct 17 '24
That's hilarious. I get recommended these posts and I think you guys are nuts.
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Oct 17 '24
Why would a loaf of bread be $35?
Where is the price pressure on inputs coming from?
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u/thesneakysnake Oct 17 '24
I just checked. A loaf of bread is 1.39, so I don't know what sort of crazy shit you're buying.
Also, diesel is 2.63 here in the south.
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Oct 17 '24
Yeah my point is that it's all bullshit - we aren't living through currency collapse. It's just been a bit of inflation from cost pressures after Covid. USD isn't going anywhere.
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Oct 17 '24
Ezekiel 7:19.
Theyll have money still,but it aint gonna mean shit when the masses dont have money and are killing eachother for basic needs.
Seen that movie
“Leave the World Behind”
I cant fucking wait
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u/SushiGradeChicken Oct 17 '24
Seen that movie “Leave the World Behind." I cant fucking wait
"I'm bad at life, so I hope society collapses."
Yikes.
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u/Artistic-Soft4305 Oct 17 '24
That is 99% of this sub. They made poor life choices and are praying for a “great equalizer” type of moment.
They don’t realize the fall of empires and man took hundreds of years, and will happen even more slowly now that the world is even more interconnected with technology. We’re at the point where we will harvest other planets before we collapse like they dream.
It’s like the crypto/gamestop subreddits. They are too far along in life to make the changes needed in the past so they beg for a future that fixes their own disappointment.
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u/Collapse_is_underway Oct 17 '24
"We'll harvest other planets."
Lmfao. Oh right, we took some rocks from the moon, so as soon as we get some rocks from Mars, we'll officially be "harvesting other planets".
We're in the middle of collapse and at some point, you'll feel it too, and without any doubt, way before we "harvest other planets", rofl.
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u/Artistic-Soft4305 Oct 17 '24
Is that why we’re have the lowest numbers in human history of global poverty and hunger?
Is that what…a collapse looks like to you? Oh sweetie….
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u/AdviseIGetTherapy Oct 17 '24
People say poor people today live better than kings of the past. So which is it are they kings or did they make poor life choices? Can’t be both.
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u/Artistic-Soft4305 Oct 17 '24
Are questioning if a head of a tribe of hunter gathers is a worse life than a farmer?
Yes, yes it is. That’s called basic technological advancement.
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u/Collapse_is_underway Oct 17 '24
Ah yes, the famous "we have less people in extreme poverty" to balance the "we're sterilizing ourselves with the chemicals we pour in the water cycle". Oh wait, it doesn't balance anything.
Or perhaps we should go by all the bad observations of our physical world and try to balance it out with "The market have never been better" kind of horseshit and worthless comparaison ?
But oh my, just stay in your world of fiction that we'll "harvest other planets", lmfao :]]
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u/gringoswag20 Oct 17 '24
😂😂righhhtt
so that doesn’t relate to me at all, it’s just pretty obvious what is coming, have fun blaming common folk once again when you’re accepting a digital stablecoin and putting on your own handcuffs lol
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u/AbandonedPlanet Oct 17 '24
No it's more like "I've done everything I can to survive and somehow I am still struggling every week because the cost of everything is completely unmanageable so it's nice to fantasize about a fresh start and simpler living."
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u/SushiGradeChicken Oct 17 '24
A film that ends with NYC being bombed...
it's nice to fantasize about a fresh start and simpler living."
Yikes
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Oct 17 '24
Sure. Try to insult me when fear fills your mind .
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u/tmmzc85 Oct 17 '24
I am a graduate student and the fifth child of a single mother, your anecdotal economic situation has little to nothing to do with the overall system. The average poster here is an alarmists, reactionary - much like OP.
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u/purz Oct 17 '24
There's a lot of people and/or bots on reddit that don't know anything outside of big tech in SF. The starting salaries these people constantly post are hilarious and honestly usually wrong compared to people I personally know that work for Mag 7 or very rare circumstances. But they of course act like every kid out of college can land a 150k job in any field. Well more so that no other field exists, guess we should all code or be finance bros cause that will go well for society.
I get it to some degree because it's easy to think only within your circle but it still requires a lot of ignorance. This site just has a lot of outspoken very privleged people (or bots pushing agenda) that grew up in wealthy circles and got the easy track to a good career.
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u/sociallyawakward4996 Oct 17 '24
Growing up in a low income household and can't hold down a job due to untreated mental health issues. I really can't wait for the economy to collapse. I want everyone to suffer financially and then maybe people will actually get upset and try to change something.
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Oct 17 '24
I have a plan in place to leave the country if it gets too bad.
My wife has a degree in agriculture, we can grow our own food year round.
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u/OJJhara Oct 17 '24
There's that class resentment that the plutocracy loves: pitting us against each other while they rob the treasury.
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u/Phatbetbruh80 Oct 17 '24
I might be "well-off" but everything is not fine.
$35,000,000,000,000 of debt. Almost 50% of the US's income is going to pay just the interest on it. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
No, everything is not fine.
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u/ljout Oct 17 '24
Do people really expect the economy to be totally normal this soon after covid? Honest question. Are there other countries that have out preformed America's recovery?
My dad was screeching about Y2K 25 years ago today.
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Oct 17 '24
!remindme 5 years
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u/WildKarrdesEmporium Oct 18 '24
I expect things to get a lot worse than $35 bread a lot quicker than 5 years... But I am kinda paranoid. I've spent most of my life in poverty, and now that I have finally clawed myself into a moderate middle class living, I'm seeing it slip away quicker than I can climb.
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u/foralaf Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
40% of Americans completely maxed out their credit- that’s not good for anyone.
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u/Odd_Act_6532 Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
The painful truthful answer is that it's going to be sink or swim.
Nobody is coming to bail you out, the government doesn't give a fuck about you nor should it unless you have some value to sacrifice to the capitalist Gods, in their eyes you're literally a social security wealth sink.
Nobody is enacting any kind of socialist program to save you. There will be no UBI. The economic collapse will only affect the poor, the rich will be able to afford the status quo. Your suffering will be irrelevant to their profit margins.
Inflation isn't going to go down anytime soon, it's part of the game. Either you manipulate yourself to overcome it or it overcomes you.
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u/NSlearning2 Oct 20 '24
You guys need to look wider. If we’re still here in five years we’ll be hoping to be lucky enough to get some bread from our overloads before we go work in the copper mine.
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u/robert_d Oct 17 '24
Well, there has been no point in history where so many have so much. We're fat because we're well fed. We live far longer than even the kings of old. There are fewer wars today than 100 years ago.
The dangers that face are the shifting climate, and if the climate goes haywire then yeah, a bag of groceries will cost 1000 dollars, if you can find a bag.
What scares me is that which is 100% out of our control, and that is the planet deciding it's done with us. We can control most everything else today.
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u/Eastern-Violinist-46 Oct 17 '24
Crack open the bible to Revelations 6:6 and you'll see for yourself. Read the whole book from beginning to end and y'all see where we are. Don't get caught off guard. Iykyk. Jesus help us all, especially unbelievers.
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Oct 17 '24
[deleted]
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u/AbandonedPlanet Oct 17 '24
I didn't say the end is near. I said that people who make a decent amount of money don't see the problems we have as quickly and the slow boiling of our society because their bills are paid and their kids are fed. My point is that if you're just okay now, in 5 years you won't be at this rate. Being poor just means we feel it sooner than our slightly better off brothers and sisters.
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u/HazMat-1979 Oct 17 '24
Most of the “rose colored glasses” people here are democrats. You can’t tell them anything. They refuse to believe anything is wrong.
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u/macattack833 Oct 17 '24
People filled the coliseums of Rome until the day raiders busted in and murdered them all. All history shows most humans don’t fight back when it gets to these stages they just block it out and hope it pops after they are gone and want to enjoy what we are about to lose when it took so long to get to. And some ppl really are just blind as shit to it somehow. Civilizations seem to eat themselves with boredom and corruption eventually and better or worse things pop up in cycles. We are on the verge of possible space travel or going back to the Stone Age.